LGBTQ in the Orthodox Community
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2018
- My response to a question posed to our panel about LGBTQ men and women in the Orthodox community. (For the responses of the other panelists to this issue and other topics raised during the program see www.jhcauction.com)
When this was first posted on my Facebook page, / 1237981393000531 , it got 9,000 views in a few days, and I got lots of feedback from LGBT Jews thanking me for my comments, and several individuals wrote searing emails describing what it’s like to walk many miles in their shoes.
I'm posting it here on CZcams so people who don't use Facebook can have access to it.
This is a very complex and sensitive subject and I ask readers to be respectful and measured in your comments.
Thank you for your understanding
Yakov - Komedie
You obviously didn’t provide a specific answer but I LOVED that you made it clear that at the very least rabbis should avail themselves in a non judgmental way to people who need to figure things out. When I was frum I didn’t feel that any of the rabbis were genuine, I felt that they pretended to be genuine as a Kiruv move. Anyway thank you for demonstrating sensitivity to a difficult topic.
Instead of uhm-ing and aah-ing and going around in circles, just say outright halacha doesn't condone LGBT, but be clear that any Jew, gay or not, is welcome in your synagogue. From my experience, it's not unusual for people who break the 10 commandments every day to be sitting in the front row praying, so what's the big deal?
Nice.
Because atleast the ones breaking the 10 commandments don’t advertise sin.
Interesting opinion Mr Asher ben Shimon. As a mother, I'd rather see a gay activist in the front row than the criminals I see at my local orthodox shul.@@Leo7s1822
@@Leo7s1822 You know the Ten Commandments include: Murder, Kidnapping, and Swearing in vain, right?
The question wasn’t just whether they can come to Shul, but how to make them feel accepted as a person without condoning their actions.
If they’re not gonna advertise the fact that they’re LGBT every five seconds, they’ll be fine in Shul just like everyone else.
How do you show someone that you care for them as a person, but can’t support their relationship? It’s not as easy as a yes or no question. And while it might’ve not been intentional, the fact that a lot of people wouldn’t accept any answer other than “Make gay marriage legal under Jewish law” or “Excommunicate every gay Jew from the community” makes it a bit of a loaded question.
Such a kind and lovely rabbi.
I wish the tzaddikim would listen to our matriarchs, the female experts on how to handle the acceptance in harmony with halacha. Thank you for starting the dialogue. For now, my mother calls me a "maskilim" just because I pursued a higher education. Who will advocate for my family's acceptance for my lifestyle if they won't even tolerate a GED? Their primary concern is 'who will pay to fly your body to keviras yisroel' instead of 'what can I do to accept you in your lifetime?
@@Leo7s1822 ?
Thank you, righteous brothers and sisters.
didnt answer the question. went dancing around the table
Loaded question got a loaded answer.
Its telling how reluctant the rabbis are to respond.
Because its not a public topic. If it's a situation u find yourself in then u go to your rabbi and he will talk to u.
In general it sexuality is a sensitive topic...
Because they can tell how unhappy the LGBT community will be with anything that isn’t “we will remove the ban on gay marriage (and force people at gun point to accept them)”.
@@mendel6776 the two people responding, you can't be serious. These are Rabbi's, they must have a response to this. They've been studying there book for years. They've been asked this question hundreds of times. They should just be honest rather than playing hot potato of which rabbi is going to answer the question.
@@chickenstrangler3826they can't allow that which is forbidden by Torah law, but they can empathy and that's what they do
Followed the link, but can't see any information about the topics or the responses of the other panelists. Is there an updated location where I could find these?
If you are LGBTQ and Orthodox you are confused on one or the other. Because one can not be both. PERIOD. There are 36 karet sins and they come with punishment.
bravo on avoiding the question
The question was if there's anything that can be done for the LGBT's to make them belong in the community, and he answered we must at least be accessible, listen, sympathize, and give them your ear to talk to (as a rabbi). I think that's an answer.
@@MusicPlaylistsChannel That's avoiding the question, then.
Agreeing with that ,, with caveat that it is a hard topic .
Because a lot of these people don’t want an answer, and are just looking to start things.
There are a few people who legitimately want to know, and to them: it’s a tough balance to make someone feel accepted without supporting what they’re doing.
Rabbi Mizrahi doesn’t go around, around he goes to the point laud and clear
We need more orthodox rabbis like him
He's no Rabbi. Soft, pandering, looking over his shoulder. He is no leader, he is a follower. One who does not have the moral fortitude to stand up to the greatest ill of our society and say No! is no Rabbi!
He is an embarrassment.
According to the Torah, which is the only authority regarding Judaism, no matter how much your local rabbi reassures you otherwise, homosexuality is entirely forbidden. Both forbidden for women and men. The Torah only allows for one kind of relationship, that between man and woman, as it is written in Bereishis 2:24: “A man shall leave the house of his father and his mother, and cling to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.” Only a man and his wife are allowed to become one flesh, to be naked with each other!
In the laws against forbidden relations in Vayikra-the arayot-men sleeping with other men, all forms of sexual contact, are spelled out as forbidden, punished by death from heaven, misa bidei shamayim. (Vayikra 18:22 and 20:13) “If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the two of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall surely die-their blood is upon them.”
This restriction against homosexual sex applies to women and forbids lesbianism, as the Tur Ha’Aroch explains, citing the rule that: הנשים בכלל אזהרות בכל התורה, women are included in all Torah prohibitions and warnings, even where the verse only says men.
Additionally, many times in the Torah we are adjured not to accept the practices of other societies. We are told in Vayikra 18:3 regarding sexual sins, וּבְחֻקֹּתֵיהֶ֖ם לֹ֥א תֵלֵֽכוּ: “You shall not copy the practices of the land of Egypt where you dwelt, or of the land of Canaan to which I am taking you; nor shall you follow their laws.” The Sifra Acharei Mot (8:8) explains that these two societies had the most “abhorrent” sexual practices of their time: “What did the people of Egypt and Canaan do? A man would marry a man, and a woman would marry a woman. A man would marry a woman and her daughter, and a woman would marry two men - wherefore the Torah states "and in their statutes you shall not walk." וּבְחֻקֹּתֵיהֶ֖ם לֹ֥א תֵלֵֽכוּ, and in their statutes you shall not walk, is therefore a blanket prohibition against all such kinds of amorous or sexual relationships.
Homosexuality is one of the greatest sins in the Torah. It is called To’eva, abhorrent. The Torah is very clear that homosexuality is assur/forbidden. Any attempts to say Torah Judaism allows homosexuality are based on contemporary social ideas, in complete defiance of the Torah law-and, whether romance or sex between two women, or two men, violates וּבְחֻקֹּתֵיהֶ֖ם לֹ֥א תֵלֵֽכוּ and additionally violates the commandment against it listed in the Arayot. So it is a violation of two Torah commandments. Certainly a sin to stay away from!
The Torah is clear, the only time it says two people can become one flesh, to see each other’s nakedness, is a man and a woman. (Bereishis 2:24) After saying it this way in Bereishis, in the positive, the Torah should therefore not have had to add additional prohibitions against homosexual sex, but even so, it did include mention of these prohibited acts and liaisons in the arayot (prohibited sexual relationships) in Vayikra and in the Sifra on this Chapter. So when listening to the counsel of a “rabbi” who offers self-styled logic, buyer beware-the Torah is the only source, no one can mitigate it or reduce it or revise it. That is Judaism. Rabbis don’t make the laws. God does.
If rabbis could make the laws as they saw fit, why would we follow such an unauthoritative religion concocted by humans. What a waste of time that would be! No, we follow the Torah, God’s “fiery law given by his right hand of might” (Devarim33:2) His fiery law. Replete with absolutes. No grays. Written in black fire, as the Midrash explains. And we eschew any and all forms of arayot, shunning all thoughts of such sexual wrongdoings before Hashem, the God that examines even the thoughts of humans, as it is written: “Let the sinful man give up his thoughts.” (Yeshaya 55:7)
The beginning of Chapter 18 of Vayikra opens, making clear that our very lives depend on following these laws of sexual purity and restraint: “You shall keep My laws and My rules, by which each human shall be given life through them: I am Hashem.” (Vayikra 18:5)
@P K actually he does stand up to the greatest I’ll of our society. Child abuse. Maybe you could learn a thing or two
He supposed to mention what Torah mentions ....what a go around for nothing
Agree!
I have just read through the comment section and I have a couple of reflections to share. First of all Torah is not black and white. It is unfortunate how Fundamentalist thought has pervaded our communities. I believe the good rabbi was expressing the greatness of the mitzvah of ואהבתה לרעך כמוך (loving your neighbor as yourself). Please pay attention to what he said about the alarming rates of suicide within the orthodox world among LGBT Jews. This is a heartbreaking reality and we are all responsible for one another. Another thing is to see that love and sexuality are two separate matters. Two men can love one another as exemplified by the relationship between (King) David and Jonathan. The negative commandment regarding a particular sexual act is very specific. It is not about orientation or feelings (which cannot be “legislated”). What people do in the privacy of their bedrooms (heterosexual or homosexual) is nobody else’s business. According to the Torah, one is only liable if an act is committed in the presence of two witnesses and the person is warned twice. This is about love and respect for our fellow Jews and creating warm and welcoming communities for all. Thank you and Shalom.
Wow, what an incredibly wise Rabbi, I have learned so much from him now.
No one wants to touch the topic. It's highly complex. Rabbis cannot condone LGBT so what can they tell gay people who come to them? To the question of marrying... it is fairly common among upper class white gays to marry a woman and have a family in spite of it all.
Where’s your proof? This sounds like complete BS
@@NoneNone-hc1yj I have practiced architecture in Texas for more than ten years. In that time I have been approached by several married guys who tell me they have had sex with guys and would like me to think about it with them in private. I do not judge them, as I come to realize that being gay or straight is not necessarily a fixed condition. Kinsey spoke about the spectrum. Maybe you know about that. This situation is treated fairly casually in the upper social stratum. All these guys I mentioned have money and are well connected in country clubs. It's true, dude.
Leviticus 18:22 has been translated in common English versions as: Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.
I will not even recognize the reformed movement so do you think they will accept this ?
Emet, truth just give truth please stop sugar coating the truth. HaShem changes not correct?
Exactly!!
i mean it shouldn’t be a sensitive topic. it’s either in line with the torah or not. modern politics and people’s feelings is irrelevant.
I'm proud of you, Rabbi Horowitz!
Whether we want admit it or not. In all religions there are writings in text that are from God. And then there are writings in text in all religions that are of man that they say is of God, but isn’t.
the Torah forbids only sex between 2 men , not love between 2 men . you can t tell a man who s not attracted to women to stay alone all his life . THAT is against nature !
Is homosexuality forbidden in the Thorah, or only in the Gemarah etc?
@@MusicPlaylistsChannel sex between two men is forbidden by the Torah leviticus 18.22 את זכר לא תשכב משכבי אישה
to tell you the truth it is also forbidden to non jews cause every man in the world has to respect the seven laws of Noah s sons [ not steal , not kill , sex prohibitions , ...] they have 6 sex prohibitions , one of them is sex between two men . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noa
@@user-od5pz6im9s
Prohibitions of sex is about adultery, not same sex.
And how would that sit with gays: love but no sex.
Word salad, no dressing.
The answer to that first question is no period
”וְאֶת זָכָר לֹא תִשְׁכַּב מִשְׁכְּבֵי אִשָּׁה תּוֹעֵבָה הִוא” (ויקרא, י"ח, כ"ב).
Can you be a rabbi and not a reform rabbi???
Don’t let them fool you They hate it They will never allow this it’s totally against their beliefs
This is a no brainer to me😳
You can talk to them sure, you can counsel them sure, you can still love them from afar sure.
The reality is that Clearly if you are l … g b and so on, you are not an orthodox. You just can’t be.
Impossible to Join the two, like oil and water they don’t mix.
Indeed we all have to make choices. You either choose HASHEM OR YOUR LAVISH PHYSICAL DESIRES.
No half in between. You can’t make a dog into a cat or a horse into a donkey.
CHOSE LIFE. You can’t have it all. Simple choose where you stand and be happy with your choice but don’t try to bring others down with you. It is like the story of the boiling pan with the crabs 🦀 pulling each other down, none of them get saved. If you choose the hot boiling water pan, good, please be happy in it, enjoy it,
Again stop trying to bring all of us down in it with you. Stay on your side. You are like Christians trying to convert us. You choose your Idol, leave us out of it. We belong to HaShem.
Unfortunately they are there to try and convert all of us to their idolatry.
Shalom to all
Marriage is between a man and woman. It’s not hard....
I hope your son is gay.
They hate it all the way
This question is for rabbi Mizrahi! This rabbi goes around and around.
How about if he found a religious lesbian with masculine qualities and gave it a try? Because i think it's all about energy attraction, he just isn't attracted to female energy. And some women can have masculine energy.
And she wouldn't want to be with him any more than he'd want to be with her. G-d made us as we are.
Why are people so afraid to call homosexual behavior what it is? It is not "brave" to "come out" publicly in a society that encourages them to do so while it demonizes those of us who "judge" the behavior as the result of nurturing unhealthy obsessions and lusts. If all of us (as sinners) would strive to nurture healthy love for HaShem (instead of SELF) and FEAR of HaShem, certain behaviors that fall under the category of "to'evah" (abominably grotesque) would not even enter one's mind (let alone allow one to obsess over it). Our society's "gentleness" and "acceptance" toward homosexuality has also made it complicit in this transgression and therefore liable as well. HaShem and His Torah must be the authority in our lives. "Sorry" if such a response makes you uncomfortable. Shalom.
"Encouraging to come out" lol look at your community and society at large and you know the truth is otherwise. The moment society budges an inch wrt our rights straight people act like it's gay land 24/7. The only encouragement to coming out is the idea that we must do that, that it's dishonest not to do so. (And idea by straight people for straight people who want us to do a little dance for their conditional love).
the Torah forbids only sex between 2 men , not love between 2 men . you can t tell a man who s not attracted to women to stay alone all his life . THAT is against nature !
@@anonymousanonymous-qx7mv you can live your life without stealing , but you can t live alone all your life . if you want to compare , compare with something comparable ok ??
@@user-od5pz6im9s Im comparing with things that people have a hard time controlling. There are many things we would love to have...crave.. but cannot. If I crave pig food, I cant have it..if I crave to violate shabbos and do something I want or gives me pleasure...I cannot...because G-d made rules that serve our purpose for a better happy healthy and content life...He knows you better than you know yourself...knows what contaminates the body and soul and gave us rules and regulations to abide by. We all struggle in ways you dont know....so either you believe G-ds word as holy or you disregard and disrespect it...the choice is yours..CHOICE is what our life is based on..and choices have consequences...sometimes in this world (which is better)or in the afterlife.. its all up to you. Choose wisely. The rewards are worth the effort and the discipline! If you want to find excuses to fit your narrative and life..you will always find them. So no need to further elaborate on this. Good luck.
@@anonymousanonymous-qx7mv when a man steals he does an action when he is alone he doesn t do anything . don t have time to read nonsense sorry
Why can’t ppl mind their own business. Perfect urself before you give mussar. There are 248 things you cannot do according to the Torah. Why are people then so obsessed with just the homophobic part?
Because it's 2020. The world is opening up, and Homosexuals such as myself feel that we have the right to be apart of it. But unfortunately, many of our community leaders don't understand what we truly are. It's becoming a big issue. And I don't really think anyone has the right to give Mussar for someone's sexual orientation.
@@schnitzelberry no...the Torah gives the mussar...not people. People just express what the Torah says
@@schnitzelberry being 2020 doesnt change things. The Torah is forever...no changes gonna be made...ever
@@schnitzelberry what is forbidden is forbidden...
@@anonymousanonymous-qx7mv
Love is forbidden?
you talk and talk and talk nothing thank you
That rabbi sounds like he got a lil sugar in his tank.
Ask the most important question: when did the young man have his sexual encounter? So many people who identify as gay had their first sexual encounter in an unequal predatory interaction. The youngster was below the age of consent and the initiator was a seducer. We would not turn a blind eye to a 16 year old boy fondling a 14 year old girl, even if the girl thinks she wants him. Similarly it is the same with homosexuality. It’s the underage non consensual sexual relationships that cause wounds and trauma.
Abomination 😢😢Hashem have Mercy 😢
I'm against that
Absolutely sickening, and you want HASHEM to help you , 😢😢😢
What a Jew answer
He really thought LONG and HARD about that question.
What's all this hemming and hawing. The fact is that LGBT, termed Toeva, abhorrent, is entirely forbidden by Torah law. See Vayikra 20,13. A person who adopts this anti-torah lifestyle has no place in the Orthodox Jewish community.