Episode 5: Helen Zille has tea with Thuli Madonsela
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- Thuli Madonsela is a South African advocate and Professor of law, holding a chair in social justice at Stellenbosch University since January 2018. She served as the Public Protector of South Africa from 19 October 2009 to 14 October 2016.
In 1996, she helped draft the final constitution of South Africa promulgated by then President Nelson Mandela.
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Thank you Helen, this was great. Such a treat to watch two educated women with different views chat about serious and complex issues in the country. Might it be possible in future chats to guide the conversation to suggesting solutions to override these social issues which we face in our country. Aside from the failure of the state, corruption etc, how do we shift the social mindset into a nonracial populace which is centered on community and a bottom-up approach? Strong leadership is a must, but this can't only fall on the president...
Don't underestimate your audience, Helen. Get into the details, we are here to learn after all.
I don't think Helen is afraid to get into the details .... she tried, but was taken back by Thuli to ideological theory through her power base anchored in the current zeitgeist.
Compare Helens' willingness to really confront her with "truth" compared to her previous tea-guests where the zeitgeist-of-previously-disadvantagement did not play a role ....
Remember she can only go so far in public before "loosing" by being labelled a racist ...
I think she was able to hold that balance in the best possible way ...
Honestly, for somebody so intelligent, she really does have some myopic views: During Thabo's era at the end, the reason for the downturn in the economy was due to the global banking crises that affected us as well, in addition to this, refusing to acknowledge that a population increase of 30 million people between 1994 and now has nothing to do with the increase in poverty?!
ANC corruption and left wing policies have everything to do with the increase in poverty and unemployment. Other countries have long since recovered from 2008.
What a lady of distinction is Madame Madonsela her intellect has left Helen Zilla in the dust as she patiently explains the South African constitution to Helen as well as more integral aspects of life as seen by those who have lived through tough times and consistently raise to the top due to sheer hard work, well done Madame Madonsela.
Thuli was good - I thought Helen could've challenged her a little more as I don't agree with most of her views, but she is an interesting person!. This was more an hour of getting to know Thuli's view than a debate. Still well worth the watch. Thanks Helen.
Most South Africans loves you and trust you Thuli. If we have to vote for a woman president, i will vote for you no matter who says what.
I have so much respect for Helen for having the guts to stick to her principals in a time where principals is subordinated to the current zeitgeist.
Politically she is the best example of someone who is truly having the best interests of all SA citizens at heart.
Yes there were attrocities in the past from colonialism, from whites etc.
But then their was a turning point when the "privileged" saw their wrong ways through new generations. Those new generations were the ones who voted to change things - and they did - thereby saying sorry and using it as a starting point to try and rectify the wrongs of their parents and forefathers.
They were the ones who wanted to help lift the previously disadvantaged to the same level of priviledge they had.
However what we have now (and what is the history of human civilization) is that the new group in power need to exercise that power OVER the out group - dominate them - and what better motivation than their victimhood from the past.
What complicates matters even more in SA is that the new political elite forms their own in-group now, to the disadvantage of their own people.
But because of the past - they would rather blame the old-regime instead of their "own" new - regime.
So rather than focus on the corruption and mismanagement of the current regime (which is currently the true culprit) - its EASIER to still claim victimhood and blame white priviledge - which is in effect the group that wanted (voted) to lift you to the same level of priviledge.
This is Helen's mission - lifting everybody to the SAME level of "priviledge" without destroying the gooze laying the golden eggs which is the only eggs available to bake a bigger cake for all to enjoy.
In a way I feel for U Helen ... Your principals are true but alas I think the zeitgeist is to strong.
Maybee we will have to go to the bottom .... and only from the BOTTOM will we ALL be able to see that we ALL need each other equally - and only then we will see ourselves in the others' countenance ....
Two warrior Women who should both be sitting in Parliament. Time for a Female President.
Absolutely agree 👍 2 women that drf SHOULD B IN. PARLIAMENT 🙏🙏👍👍🌹🌹🌹🌹🙏👍👍
I know I'm a bit late to the party in terms of commenting to this video, but I just feel I would still like to raise my voice on some of the discussions and even though it is extremely unlikely, I hope that both Thuli Madonsela and Helen Zille will see this and respond XD
At 51:00 both Thuli and Helen agree that "if you exclude women from opportunities you stunt your own growth." I think this is an extremely important statement and I'm sure many hours of debate could be had just on this statement alone!
In fact, that is what I'm somewhat attempting to stimulate with this comment. If it is true that excluding people from opportunities (due to whichever of their characteristics) will stunt your growth, and I believe it is, then why on earth would South Africa implement black economic empowerment?
If businesses are voluntold that they NEED to have individuals in certain positions within the company purely based off of their skin colour, would that not mean that businesses will willingly, or not, exclude candidates that are not the desired skin colour, hence stunting growth?
Let's take the example given by Thuli and apply sex to this discussion. If a government were to implement laws and regulations that essentially force businesses to only have males in specific positions, such as a CEO for example, that would mean that fewer women would be given the opportunity to become CEOs, thus leading to stunted growth. Sure, women still technically have an opportunity to become CEOs, but businesses are essentially incentivised to NOT hire women for the position of CEO as it would be a disadvantage later down the road. Personally, that seems extremely sexist, regardless of whether or not males were previously disadvantaged. Merriam-Webster defines "sexism" as prejudice or discrimination based on sex. I think it is clear that in this example women would be discriminated against, not based on their skills or ability to perform the task at hand, but rather purely based off of the fact that they were born with the "wrong" sex.
The same example can be taken, however, we substitute sex with race and voilà you now have black economic empowerment.
There is a popular saying that states that two wrongs don't make a right. Disadvantaging others just because you either were or currently are disadvantaged can be likened to people that are drowning pulling down their saviours just to catch a moment's worth of breath. Ultimately, if they do not calm down and stop, both are likely to drown.
I strongly agree with Helen, that equality of outcomes is an extremely slippery slope and can lead only to further injustices and division. Instead, equality of opportunities is a much more realistic and fair-ish goal to strive for.
With that said, I would like to also address a point made by Thuli, where she states that because of a person's network they will remain either advantaged/disadvantaged. I understand the logic, however, I disagree on the belief that this is a problem that government or institutions should concern themselves with.
I understand that a person is heavily influenced by those that they are surrounded by, however, I believe a better approach would be to slowly (perhaps even over generations) improve the quality of the people found in disadvantaged communities. Currently the systems in South Africa, a highly likely to uplift individuals that were previously disadvantaged, while the rest of the disadvantaged community remains in poverty. Can those individuals have a positive influence on the well-being of their communities? Certainly! However, you are also simply maintaining inequality. Not necessarily in terms of the number of people that are disadvantaged in comparison to the number of well-off individuals, but rather in that the community will remain in poverty while one person enjoys the luxuries of life.
Would it not be better, to have the government focus on slowly improving the quality-of-life experienced by the entirety of these communities, while allowing members of the community to individually speed up the process through hard work, instead of uplifting only individuals?
Thank you for the opportunity to share my views. I hope that whosoever made it to this point found some sort of value out of the above statements. Finally, I would just like to thank both Thuli and Helen for a very cordial discussion throughout this episode. Something that is sorely lacking in our parliament.
Good day and God bless!
Thuli nailing her EFF colours to the mast. What a disappointment she is. Comparing a sponsored car to using stolen money from VBS to live the high life. Unbelievable stunted thinking.
It is sad to see that Thuli repeat "facts" that was heard "somewhere" and then want to debate on that untrue fact as true.... 😒
Homelands are wierd shapes because "water resources and fertile land was scooped out"..... Is this what educated black people believe??
Yeah, what a statement. Also, naming your child after Fidel Castro..... what can I say. I guess we are talking about "decolonized" education here so it makes perfect sense.
The Transkei was once a very fertile area until communal farming caused overgrazing and disinterest in the protection of the land.
Probably
Evidently.
It seems so, I am familiar with the Ciskei it had weird enclaves and exclaves. Like dead smack in the centre, King williams town was in south Africa somehow. Hamburg was in the Ciskei all the way but all of a sudden the coast itself was in South Africa. Most of this weirdness was seemed designed with one purpose.
A great opportunity of seeing the mindset of the black influential intelligentsia.
I was interested to see Helen quoting the Chinese model instead of the Indian
model which is of course not a Socialist or State Centric model which has
brought 375 M Indians out of poverty. I highly recommend the documentary
on Netflix call “The Pursuit” written and starred by economist Arthur Brooks
who makes a compelling case for freeing the economy from State control.
"Social justice' sounds suspicious to me, because it suggests something different than "justice" without any adjective.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
[00:19] 🤖 *Prof. Thuli Madonsela is a South African advocate and Professor of law.*
[00:32] 🛡️ *She was appointed Public Protector of South Africa in 2009.*
[01:11] 💼 *She has received many honorary doctorates and is recognized throughout the world.*
[03:18] ⚖️ *She has been a social justice activist for as long as she can remember.*
[04:14] ⚖️ *She remembers a case where young people were wrongly convicted of murder and the death penalty was reversed.*
[05:31] 🎓 *She was born in Greater Johannesburg and raised by two loving parents.*
[06:13] 🎓 *She studied humanities at university and then went on to study law.*
[06:54] ⚖️ *Her parents didn't want her to be a lawyer because they thought lawyers were crooks.*
[08:08] 🎓 *She studied law at the University of Swaziland and then went on to practice law in South Africa.*
[09:17] 🛡️ *She said she would be the protector of the rule of law and the Constitution, not anyone's protector.*
[09:44] ⚖️ *Prof. Madonsela was nominated for Public Protector by the South African Women in Dialogue, an organization with members of the ANC.*
[10:13] 🛡️ *She was appointed Public Protector with the unanimous support of Parliament, including the ANC.*
[10:27] ⚖️ *She was motivated to protect the public and believed that the Public Protector's role was to do so.*
[10:42] 🛡️ *She had a track record of protecting the public, including establishing the South African Women Lawyers Association and providing access to justice education.*
[10:55] ⚖️ *She was aware of the Beckett Baker case, where young people were wrongly convicted of murder and the death penalty was reversed.*
[12:02] 🛡️ *She did not anticipate that the perpetrator would use her position to engage in corruption.*
[12:17] ⚖️ *The Scorpions, an anti-corruption agency, were disbanded just as she was being appointed Public Protector.*
[12:28] 🛡️ *This created a space for the Public Protector to focus on corruption, which had not been its historical focus.*
[12:41] ⚖️ *She had powers to handle all manner of wrongdoing in government, but corruption was not the traditional focus of the Public Protector.*
[12:56] 🛡️ *Selby Parker, the head of the Scorpions, was often criticized for not doing enough to fight corruption.*
[13:10] ⚖️ *The Public Protector's role was to focus on maladministration and administrative injustice.*
[13:24] 🛡️ *In the absence of the Scorpions, many cases that would have gone to them ended up coming to the Public Protector.*
[13:38] ⚖️ *The problem of unethical conduct seemed to increase during her time as Public Protector.*
[13:51] 🛡️ *This further pushed the Public Protector into the space of focusing on corruption.*
[14:05] ⚖️ *Prof. Madonsela believes that history is an unexpected confluence of different circumstances and unintended consequences.*
[14:20] 🛡️ *She investigated Helen Zille on one occasion, which was a tough period but she believes she did the right thing.*
[14:34] ⚖️ *She is used to Twitter and believes it is important to move away from the sewer of Twitter to long-form conversations.*
[14:47] 🛡️ *She believes that people think she bullies people, but this is a bizarre notion.*
[15:01] ⚖️ *She is trying to pioneer long-form podcasts to get away from the sewer of Twitter.*
[15:30] 🛡️ *She believes that people think anything that happens is because she bullied someone, which is also bizarre.*
[15:45] ⚖️ *She got a lot of major principles in the Constitution tested and a whole lot of jurisprudence established.*
[15:59] 🛡️ *Her most famous report was Secure in Comfort, about Nkandla, where Parliament brushed aside her recommendations.*
[16:13] ⚖️ *The DA and the EFF approached the Constitutional Court for a ruling as to whether the findings of the Public Protector are indeed binding.*
[16:27] 🛡️ *The Constitutional Court ruled that the findings of the Public Protector are indeed binding.*
[16:39] ⚖️ *Prof. Madonsela believes that it is a humbling experience to be in a historical position.*
[16:54] 🛡️ *She believes that the Constitutional Court gave content to the words in the Constitution through actual cases.*
[17:06] ⚖️ *She believes that the Secure in Comfort case was important because it was about the ethics of spending money on one person's welfare.*
[17:20] 🛡️ *She believes that the Constitutional Court case was important because it clarified the powers of the Public Protector.*
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Please do one of these with JuJu. It'll be great for dramacoin.
I wonder if the professor has done a correlation coefficient between anc strongholds and the extremis of poverty… i suspect we would see something above .9
An honest, ethical, sharp and hardworking public protector. For this I applaud Thuli. However her dogmatic views on 'social justice' which is just a veiled academic term for central engineering and state control will only lead SA to more ruin. She refuses to see the hard economic numbers under the fantastic Mbeki years which if persisted could have done wonders for the country. Thuli really believes that taking land, wealth and jobs from a 7% minority is somehow going make us prosperous and taking 'land' from 32 000 white farmers is somehow going to magically uplift 20 million from poverty. This is the kind of EFF world view where simple arithmetic and common sense is sacrificed on the alter of 'good intentions'
This recipe was tried in Venezuela and it was tried in Zimbabwe and it failed. No matter how much you philosophize and dress it up, the result will be the same. If more in the ANC and government think like Thuli does, there really is zero hope for this country.
Exactly, and these communist ideas are SO disappointing coming from someone I looked up to...
Those years favoured the rich which majority of was white people not even translating to something for the poor so that's why you continue praising Mbeki you whites
@@olwethunqindi8488 Nope, incorrect. Look at unemployment numbers and black middle class growth during that period. The numbers are clear, the Mbeki years were benefiting EVERYONE including the poor blacks who needed it most.
@@M1ke22 dude but our people remained out of mainstream economy they continued being left out on the economic means of productions they were only merely workers rather than employers so land still remained with the few imagine had the land program under mbeki been attended he would have had a very great time and more growth but means of production still remained with the few
@@olwethunqindi8488 If land = wealth and 'production' than Russia would have the richest population on earth. Yet Japan (a little island), South Korea and the UK are many times richer overall and population wise than Russia. Hong Kong and Singapore are TINY places with no land where people live in TINY apartments and yet many times wealthier and more prosperous then we are. Wake up and smell the coffee man. EFF rhetoric is for the gullible and naive.
Here's that tea Malema refused to have.
Can we fact check Thuli that there was an Apartheid law that: "if you abandon your job you would be arrested"? Sounds to me like that brilliant system of "Apprenticeship" and it would have applied to all races..
Yes I would like to see that also. As far as I know this is not true. Yes things are soooo much better now under black government.
Masters and Servants Acts of 1856
These Acts, which had been passed between 1856 and 1904 in the four territories, remained in force after Union. They made it a criminal offence to breach the contract of employment. Desertion, insolence, drunkenness, negligence and strikes were also criminal offences. Theoretically these laws applied to all races, but the courts held that the laws were applicable only to unskilled work, which was performed mostly by Black people (Dugard 1978: 85; Horrell 1978: 6). Repealed by section 51 of the Second General Law Amendment Act No 94 of 1974.
never heard of such a law. no one i know has ever heard of it. is thuli saying that when people didn't show up for work they got fired? yes, that's how it used to work. now you can't fire 'em so you don't hire 'em.
@@marrimee22 No, when people didn't show up for work the police had to persue them and they would either be put in jail or recieve other forms of punishment and forced back to work. My uncle's father in law told me stories of how that was a big part of his job. Tracking workers who ran away from the job in the Cederberg mountains.
@@fkngeniuspappie question? What year was this law applied? Was this one of the laws that became dormant and practiced like a woman can be hit with a stick thinner than your thumb?
Thanks Helen for once again reminding me why I should not vote for the DA.
The way Helen Zille is hogging this discussion through lengthy statements, interjections and distractions, one would be forgiven for wondering whether she is the interviewee or the interviewer. Just sayin'...
once again great show thank you. Prof Madonsela is right about the fertile land being given to whites ,here in the eastern cape there is what was refereed to as the White corridor ( Stutterheim,Cathcart ,east london,macleantown,Komani ,Cala,Ugie , Maclear Elliot) at the heart of what was known as the Xhosa Homeland is some of the most fertile land in the country and it was taken and owned by white farmer. i thank Ms Madonsela for attending to the continued hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty of Mrs Zille in analyzing the issues of south africa. Our Issues are complex , its not just a case of remove Zuma/ANC then we will be in paradise. Our issues are historical coupled with the failures of the current dispensation. We need a collective effort if we are to solve our issues as a country
The Xhosa occupied the land that was the Transkei many years ago because it was fertile. Communal farming and overgrazing have turned the land into the sorry state it is now.
@@nielwilliams4687 overgrazing is cause by exactly my point that the colonial government took a huge chunk of the fertile land leaving the rest with africans. In precolonial eastern cape the farms in this so called White corridor were part of our lands so there wouldn't be overgrazing had the land not been taken from us.People are cramped in Keiskammahoek in large numbers with minimal space yet 1 white farmer owns a very large track of land in Stutterheim . This is of colonial making. Mind you those people cramped in the keiskammahoek villages were removed from Stutterheim.This takes places everywhere in the country ,i mean in the Western cape black people ( Africans,colored,indians ) own just about 1% of the land the rest is in white people's hands.
@@sibulelemanto6688 I think we should also check on how many people have bought their land with well earned money. Those people should be excluded from the land debate, because land will and can never be taken away from people who has willingly buy it. This country can be thankful for someone like Helen, she is so intelligent. I can see why she was World Mayor of 2008. Thuli once again showing her true colours. It did not work in Venezuela neither did it work in Zimbabwe. May the Lord be with this country.
@@sibulelemanto6688 Keep in mind that overgrazing is a controlled by a farmer to preserve land so its sustainable. With population growth and everyone want to farm cattle you still can only have so many cattle on a piece of land. Population growth is a problem word wide, traditional farming is only viable up to a point because inherited land can not be indefinitely sub divided. What if all 60 million of citizens wants fertile land to have cattle? Simple economics determine farms have to be well run and preserved.
I would like more info on the kind of economic model that arbitrarily hands over land based on race.
Granular specifics are in order here, especially since investors are sensitive creatures, and there may not be much investment left after the ANC is done with their land expropriation without compensation.
Land is not the issue- property rights are the issue- how will you lease out land if you have weak property rights? The professor is using the wrong logic here
Who said "the truth will out"?
Social Justice is not Justice as is it predicated on collective (your race, sex, sexual orientation, wealth etc) attributes. Justice is based on individual decisions When we condemn people based on their immutable characteristics then we are truly lost.
So what happens to tea with Helen when you are back at the DA offices?
Fidel after Fidel Castro... Hmmmm...................... :(
If Thuli admires Bill Gates ????
she was doing justice to get a white boyfriend not for the country.. it is so strange to married by Stellenbosch man.😅😅
Mushwanes uselessness has only now been eclipsed by mkwabs- only an anc reading of his performance could be as charitable as the professors analysis
Geez Thuli just want to make it about race the whole time.
Am sure that with Helen's views on land and with the possibility of her coming back to the leadership , all those DA white voters who left the party and voted for FF+ will come back in droves to the DA.
Amazing we are talking social justice and looking at what whites own. Rather divide state land and assets for the previously disadvantage. I don't see any black person taking on tribalism. Capitalism is built on ownship of the factors of production. The South African constitution has been desicrated in the last 10 years and almost of no value. You can't force society to value everyone equally as people have different value to society. A murder has less value than a surgeon. Very theoretical discussion when most teachers in South Africa would fail matric. Sounds like everyone should get a silver teaspoon. Sounds like everyone at grade 1 should take an exam and those with the highest score need to be hit on the head until they get the average. Give me Helen she is amazing. Very typical of university liberal language complex mumbo-jumbo. The land issue is black people having land rights to enable them to practice ansestoral worship. No interest in farming for a profit.
Its "Social Justice" for their chosen group and to hell with the rest.... which in my book is Racism...
Thulas nxesi? If you are quoting that socialist kleptocrat then you are really off to a poor wicket
Injustice…. Yet you name your child after castro?
If everyone owns land, who are you going to rent it to Thuli?.... oh the whites who you stole it from. neh?..
So Helen , are you calling those slavery jobs where our parents were called boys and girls during apartheid real jobs???? and expect me to vote for the DA as you plan to come back to the DA leadership ????really ??
We heard u the first time.ANC doing great
An interview with an empty vessel. Very disappointing considering the power Thuli has in this country.
Helen is delusional when it comes to race. Lol.
Thuli and Helen think they can legislate away poverty. Bahahahahahhahahahahahah..... On a serious note, we need to break up ZA with a small free sate for the Aftikaaners, the rest should go to Thuli and her kind, I'm sure they will go well.
Yeah that's the solution, the highly successful apartheid model that was in no way failed, you go get 'em Rupert but please somewhere else
@@matthewcoutts5258 Will do Matty. Good luck with the Bantus.
We all know that the wealth of England was largely brought about my legislated conquest, where the interest of the English were put ahead of other human beings. The same applies to the So called Afrikaners, their wealth was protected by the legislation and that same legislation criminalized the wealth of the black people, as Sol plaatjie wrote in his journal about the atrocities that the whites were committing to black farmer in the early 1900s, taking their cattle and burning their agricultural field. Let's also not forget the legislation that made sure that black mining labourers were paid way too little compared to their white counterparts. So the poverty of black people was legislated whilst the wealth of the white was also brought about by legislation. So let's not hide our brains in sand and ignore the the real source of povert and wealth in South Africa.
@@givennkosi5679 Adding value is what destroyed poverty. Writing rules on useless pieces of paper never will. In fact, you can legislate people into poverty very easily. If this government removed all their stupid rules businesses in this country will mushroom, fact! Let's not forget the last 25 years, look at all the laws created over the past 25 years, did it help at all? No people are worse off and it is set to get even worse. But anyway, you have a rock-solid excuse there with the bad past, no getting away from that, I just hope that reusing the same excuse of the oppressive past will one day pay off, so far it's not really worked out all that well, let's be honest.
Believe me, the "Bantus" that you and your ancestors called us don't really want to live with Afrikaners either baby. We prefer the English and Jews, the more sophisticated whites. Not sewer manure dumbster juice whites like the Boers.
Why would you name your son after Fidel Castro?
Why not? Yaz niyadina abelungu.
Why not?
Why not? He's our hero as black people. You whites have your own heroes which we don't question nor care about so why y'all worried about Fidel?
@@taxitsongantsena6878 whites feel like their enemies should be ours too. Which is ridiculous 🙄
Zuma tea party l o l