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I love how the English people debate. I know their from South Africa.

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: [00:19] 🛡️ *Thuli Madonsela is a household name in South Africa, having served as Public Protector from 2009 to 2016.* [00:32] 💼 *She was appointed by President Jacob Zuma with unanimous support from Parliament.* [00:46] ⚖️ *During her tenure, she faced both vilification and praise for her work in upholding the rule of law.* [01:11] 🎓 *She is a respected legal scholar and holds the chair in social justice at Stellenbosch University.* [01:40] 👩‍👧‍👦 *Thuli Madonsela is a mother of two children and is currently engaged.* [04:01] ⚖️ *She successfully appealed the case, but notes that the time spent on death row can never be regained.* [04:51] ⚖️ *She also highlights the issue of common purpose, where individuals are held responsible for the actions of a crowd.* [05:18] 📚 *Thuli Madonsela was born in Greater Johannesburg and raised in Soweto.* [05:44] 📚 *She obtained her O-levels in Swaziland and later returned to complete her first degree in humanities.* [06:39] ⚖️ *Thuli Madonsela's mother initially discouraged her from pursuing a career in law due to negative perceptions of lawyers.* [06:54] ⚖️ *She highlights the lack of understanding of the law in townships and villages, leading to misconceptions about the role of lawyers.* [08:08] 📚 *She recalls her father's desire for her to have an education, while her mother initially discouraged her from studying law.* [09:44] 🛡️ *Thuli Madonsela clarifies that she was not an ANC nominee, but rather nominated by the South African Women in Dialogue.* [09:59] ⚖️ *She highlights that she had a track record of protecting the public, having established the South African Women Lawyers Association and providing legal education to the community.* [10:27] 💼 *She recalls her appointment by President Zuma, who fully supported her nomination.* [10:42] ⚖️ *She emphasizes the importance of considering a person's track record before appointing them to positions of authority.* [11:09] ⚖️ *She speaks about the Beckett Baker case, where young people were wrongly convicted of a crime and sentenced to death due to an extreme application of the common purpose principle.* [12:17] 💼 *She discusses the historical context of her appointment, coinciding with the disbandment of the Scorpions, an agency focused on corruption.* [12:41] ⚖️ *She explains that the Public Protector's mandate was not initially focused on corruption, but with the absence of the Scorpions, this responsibility fell upon her office.* [13:10] ⚖️ *She clarifies the distinction between maladministration and corruption, stating that the Public Protector's role was primarily concerned with the former.* [14:05] ⚖️ *She reflects on the unintended consequences of historical events and how they shaped her experiences as Public Protector.* [14:20] 💼 *She addresses the allegations of bullying against her by Helen Zille, emphasizing the transparency and openness of her decisions.* [14:47] ⚖️ *She explains the distinction between unlawful and improper conduct, noting that guidelines do not carry the same weight as laws.* [15:01] 💼 *She expresses her frustration with the misuse of Twitter and its tendency to spread misinformation.* [15:30] ⚖️ *She challenges the notion that she bullied Zille, emphasizing the role of Parliament in holding the executive accountable.* [15:45] 💼 *She highlights her role in establishing legal precedents and strengthening the power of the Public Protector through cases adjudicated in the Constitutional Court.* [16:13] ⚖️ *She discusses her famous "Secure in Comfort" report, where her recommendations were ignored by Parliament and President Zuma.* [16:54] ⚖️ *She reflects on the humbling experience of contributing to the interpretation of the Constitution through her work as Public Protector.* [17:47] ⚖️ *She explains the importance of challenging the powers of the Public Protector to ensure accountability and transparency.* [18:29] ⚖️ *She highlights the significance of the third power granted to the Public Protector - the ability to take remedial action - and its implications for holding government accountable.* [18:42] ⚖️ *Thuli Madonsela highlights the rare case of the Constitutional Court granting additional powers to the Public Protector.* [18:54] 💼 *She explains that the Beckett Baker case was a challenge to the Public Protector's powers and the government's responsibility to take appropriate action.* [19:20] ⚖️ *She describes the Constitutional Court's judgment as a seminal one, clarifying the binding powers of the Public Protector's recommendations.* [19:48] 💼 *She emphasizes the distinction between clear directives and recommendations in her reports.* [20:03] ⚖️ *She explains the concept of "consider doing" recommendations, acknowledging the separation of powers while suggesting actions that could strengthen democracy.* [20:31] 💼 *She highlights the Constitutional Court's reinforcement of ethical conduct expectations for the president and Parliament.* [20:43] ⚖️ *She emphasizes the Constitutional Court's rebuke of Parliament for neglecting its oversight role.* [20:59] 💼 *She describes the Chief Justice's analogy of a headmaster scolding students, urging Parliament to fulfill its responsibilities.* [21:26] ⚖️ *She praises Parliament's improved performance in holding the executive accountable, attributing it to the Constitutional Court's judgment.* [22:21] ⚖️ *She describes the bail Pottinger campaign as a "wildfire" that exploited racial divisions and highlighted the need to address poverty and inequality.* [23:01] 💼 *She provides statistics on poverty in South Africa, emphasizing the disparities and the need for action.* [24:21] 💼 *She delves into the unemployment statistics, highlighting the improvement during Thabo Mbeki's presidency and the subsequent decline.* [25:14] ⚖️ *She explains the concept of the Gini coefficient and its limitations in measuring inequality, emphasizing the importance of considering overall poverty reduction.* [26:46] ⚖️ *She explains her view of the bail Pottenger campaign's focus on white monopoly capital as an impetus for social justice, emphasizing the importance of addressing unfinished business and the dark shadow of the past.* [56:26] 💼 *Thuli Madonsela emphasizes the importance of substance over window dressing in addressing social justice issues.* [57:20] ⚖️ *She highlights the success of the market mechanism in transferring land to historically disadvantaged individuals, surpassing the state mechanism's effectiveness.* [57:47] 🌾 *She stresses the significance of utilizing fertile land for food production and job creation, emphasizing the tragedy of the commons under the Ingonyama Trust.* [58:29] 🚜 *Helen Zille challenges the notion that fertile land is primarily in white hands, citing historical land grabs and the exclusion of black farmers.* [01:00:04] 🤝 *She advocates for a pragmatic approach to land reform, encouraging farmers to share their land and facilitate land redistribution processes.* [01:01:14] 🥑 *She emphasizes the need to stop playing games with land reform and utilize fertile land for food production and job creation.* [01:01:54] 🚜 *She challenges the assumption that land ownership is the key to wealth creation, pointing to the fourth and fifth Industrial Revolutions.* [01:02:21] 💰 *She highlights the asset structure of South Africa, where 90% of assets are held by 7% of the population, creating a recipe for disaster.* [01:03:30] 🌍 *She agrees with the importance of addressing gross disparities to prevent extremism but notes the complexity of the capital-income ratio in South Africa.* [01:04:24] 💰 *She emphasizes South Africa's richness in terms of GDP and value-added, despite the country's underutilization of its potential.* [01:13:14] 💸 *Thuli Madonsela discusses raising funds for students, initially through Pub Potato and later through Sake, with Angela Country as a major donor.* [01:13:52] 🎓 *She highlights the use of the funds to support young people at universities, including her own university, Stellenbosch University, to address historical debt and financial aid issues.* [01:14:22] 💰 *She expresses regret over her generation's perceived failure to raise funds and establish a civil society trust to level the playing field for students.* [01:14:48] 📚 *She acknowledges that her generation benefited from scholarships and financial assistance from various sources, including strangers and local churches.* [01:15:27] 😔 *She shares an example of a student facing financial difficulties despite government funding, highlighting the persistent issue of poverty hindering education.* [01:15:54] 🌍 *She criticizes the lack of progress in leveling the playing field for education in South Africa, comparing it favorably to other African countries.* [01:16:19] 🎓 *She underscores the importance of education as a major determinant of social mobility and poverty reduction, citing statistics and a speech by Party Lakota.* Made with HARPA AI

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: [00:19] 🤖 *Prof. Thuli Madonsela is a South African advocate and Professor of law.* [00:32] 🛡️ *She was appointed Public Protector of South Africa in 2009.* [01:11] 💼 *She has received many honorary doctorates and is recognized throughout the world.* [03:18] ⚖️ *She has been a social justice activist for as long as she can remember.* [04:14] ⚖️ *She remembers a case where young people were wrongly convicted of murder and the death penalty was reversed.* [05:31] 🎓 *She was born in Greater Johannesburg and raised by two loving parents.* [06:13] 🎓 *She studied humanities at university and then went on to study law.* [06:54] ⚖️ *Her parents didn't want her to be a lawyer because they thought lawyers were crooks.* [08:08] 🎓 *She studied law at the University of Swaziland and then went on to practice law in South Africa.* [09:17] 🛡️ *She said she would be the protector of the rule of law and the Constitution, not anyone's protector.* [09:44] ⚖️ *Prof. Madonsela was nominated for Public Protector by the South African Women in Dialogue, an organization with members of the ANC.* [10:13] 🛡️ *She was appointed Public Protector with the unanimous support of Parliament, including the ANC.* [10:27] ⚖️ *She was motivated to protect the public and believed that the Public Protector's role was to do so.* [10:42] 🛡️ *She had a track record of protecting the public, including establishing the South African Women Lawyers Association and providing access to justice education.* [10:55] ⚖️ *She was aware of the Beckett Baker case, where young people were wrongly convicted of murder and the death penalty was reversed.* [12:02] 🛡️ *She did not anticipate that the perpetrator would use her position to engage in corruption.* [12:17] ⚖️ *The Scorpions, an anti-corruption agency, were disbanded just as she was being appointed Public Protector.* [12:28] 🛡️ *This created a space for the Public Protector to focus on corruption, which had not been its historical focus.* [12:41] ⚖️ *She had powers to handle all manner of wrongdoing in government, but corruption was not the traditional focus of the Public Protector.* [12:56] 🛡️ *Selby Parker, the head of the Scorpions, was often criticized for not doing enough to fight corruption.* [13:10] ⚖️ *The Public Protector's role was to focus on maladministration and administrative injustice.* [13:24] 🛡️ *In the absence of the Scorpions, many cases that would have gone to them ended up coming to the Public Protector.* [13:38] ⚖️ *The problem of unethical conduct seemed to increase during her time as Public Protector.* [13:51] 🛡️ *This further pushed the Public Protector into the space of focusing on corruption.* [14:05] ⚖️ *Prof. Madonsela believes that history is an unexpected confluence of different circumstances and unintended consequences.* [14:20] 🛡️ *She investigated Helen Zille on one occasion, which was a tough period but she believes she did the right thing.* [14:34] ⚖️ *She is used to Twitter and believes it is important to move away from the sewer of Twitter to long-form conversations.* [14:47] 🛡️ *She believes that people think she bullies people, but this is a bizarre notion.* [15:01] ⚖️ *She is trying to pioneer long-form podcasts to get away from the sewer of Twitter.* [15:30] 🛡️ *She believes that people think anything that happens is because she bullied someone, which is also bizarre.* [15:45] ⚖️ *She got a lot of major principles in the Constitution tested and a whole lot of jurisprudence established.* [15:59] 🛡️ *Her most famous report was Secure in Comfort, about Nkandla, where Parliament brushed aside her recommendations.* [16:13] ⚖️ *The DA and the EFF approached the Constitutional Court for a ruling as to whether the findings of the Public Protector are indeed binding.* [16:27] 🛡️ *The Constitutional Court ruled that the findings of the Public Protector are indeed binding.* [16:39] ⚖️ *Prof. Madonsela believes that it is a humbling experience to be in a historical position.* [16:54] 🛡️ *She believes that the Constitutional Court gave content to the words in the Constitution through actual cases.* [17:06] ⚖️ *She believes that the Secure in Comfort case was important because it was about the ethics of spending money on one person's welfare.* [17:20] 🛡️ *She believes that the Constitutional Court case was important because it clarified the powers of the Public Protector.* Made with HARPA AI

Max is a Poepol

Max should get hold of a Bible before losing his mind

max face the truth of the past what you were and what you done face the truth now you turned into a avading lying backside

Really interesting to hear folk who no virtually zero about energy generation but a lot about RSA politics commenting.

My many thanks go to Du Preez who availed himself to this eye-opening meeting. Mr Du Preez is one of impressive journalists of the time during our track towards our democracy. I used to admire his column stance which expressed favour of political change in our country. Now of late, if I may admit, I've been failing to follow Du Preez's line of thinking. All the time I've been tolerant telling myself, I perhaps missing something. Thanks to you too Zile, that you've successfully exposed what in Du Preez's journalistic mind is. I now know and am relieved to learn that my suspicion has not been uniquely irrational. I'm not alone in the lost in Du Preez's journalistic line of agenda 😂

Bless ol' Max for his terrific Vryeweekblad years, his courage and his bloody mindedness. He's not reverted to his pre anti apartheid youth, he's just a crabby, old man with a touch too much ego and perhaps a smidgeon of Boer attitude of, "ek sal die donerse braai doen, vroutjie, gaan jy net terug kombuis toe en was die skottels."😉

Two warrior Women who should both be sitting in Parliament. Time for a Female President.

WANTED TO ADD mAX dU pREEZ HAS ALWAYS BEEN A FOOL.

hELEN zILLE HAS BE TOO ARROGANT. wE WILLL NOT BE VOTING da ANY LONGER.

Most South Africans loves you and trust you Thuli. If we have to vote for a woman president, i will vote for you no matter who says what.

she was doing justice to get a white boyfriend not for the country.. it is so strange to married by Stellenbosch man.😅😅

This discussion is fruitless - SA has 50% unemployment - time bomb - you're like kids???????

Land is not the issue- property rights are the issue- how will you lease out land if you have weak property rights? The professor is using the wrong logic here

Thulas nxesi? If you are quoting that socialist kleptocrat then you are really off to a poor wicket

I wonder if the professor has done a correlation coefficient between anc strongholds and the extremis of poverty… i suspect we would see something above .9

Mushwanes uselessness has only now been eclipsed by mkwabs- only an anc reading of his performance could be as charitable as the professors analysis

Injustice…. Yet you name your child after castro?

So wits can exclude people based on race… but its a crisis when solidarity does it? Im confused- is race an exclusionary criteria or not?

Imagine calling socialism ‘progressive’… i cant think of anything less progressive really

Cyril is an anc snake that supports the NDR- he is not a good man nor a good president and time has proved that statement

The constitution guarantees equal rights to all south africans- if I need to get to the back of the queue- happy to do same- but then I want to pay a tax commensurate with that- my 43% should be pegged at around 10% then… maybe 5% would be fair

Max cant accept that he helped bring the anc into power that jacob zuma is not a bug of his beloved anc but a feature- that the anc murdered its way into power and that max & people like him turned a blind eye to it. The anc has many many vlakplaases… yet to see a column from max reporting on the kzn killing fields- but I suppose its easy for him living in cape town whining about the DA

Max is a joke

Thanks so much for the practical and robust discussion. The continuous exchange of wisdom and advanced intellectual knowlegde that is shared, gives me hope in my leadership as well as the future of our beloved country.

What a wonderful conversation! Keep up the good work

We need Mr Habeeb as the Minister of Education.

Thuli sniffs nervously which for me is a psychological reaction to a white person telling the truth

Zuma tea party l o l

If Thuli admires Bill Gates ????

And he is screwed up

Wow. This was instructive (and probably the craziest interview I've seen). Normally wokists are very smooth and impenetrable in their rhetoric. Max was fumbling and crude in his responses it was easy to see the gaping holes in his logic and understanding. He has clearly not thought through the ideas he claims to support here (to the point of at least being able to articulate them clearly when under pressure).

How sad to see these two senior citizens fighting over their playground tweets like this. Funny if not so sad.

Helen you make an a *** shole of Max. He should go for a skin transplant and learn to speak a black language. And he must forget that he was ever white

Helen is delusional when it comes to race. Lol.

Ms.Zille, Your tone, comments & general attitude in this discussion, regarding whiteness, indicates that you have absolutely no appreciation of the 'real' impact of apartheid on the lives of people of color... you have no capacity to empathise & your views come through as harsh & defensive...

Can you believe it.....Covid-19 was spreading around September...and now here we are!

A despicable man

It is sad to see that Thuli repeat "facts" that was heard "somewhere" and then want to debate on that untrue fact as true.... 😒

I know I'm a bit late to the party in terms of commenting to this video, but I just feel I would still like to raise my voice on some of the discussions and even though it is extremely unlikely, I hope that both Thuli Madonsela and Helen Zille will see this and respond XD At 51:00 both Thuli and Helen agree that "if you exclude women from opportunities you stunt your own growth." I think this is an extremely important statement and I'm sure many hours of debate could be had just on this statement alone! In fact, that is what I'm somewhat attempting to stimulate with this comment. If it is true that excluding people from opportunities (due to whichever of their characteristics) will stunt your growth, and I believe it is, then why on earth would South Africa implement black economic empowerment? If businesses are voluntold that they NEED to have individuals in certain positions within the company purely based off of their skin colour, would that not mean that businesses will willingly, or not, exclude candidates that are not the desired skin colour, hence stunting growth? Let's take the example given by Thuli and apply sex to this discussion. If a government were to implement laws and regulations that essentially force businesses to only have males in specific positions, such as a CEO for example, that would mean that fewer women would be given the opportunity to become CEOs, thus leading to stunted growth. Sure, women still technically have an opportunity to become CEOs, but businesses are essentially incentivised to NOT hire women for the position of CEO as it would be a disadvantage later down the road. Personally, that seems extremely sexist, regardless of whether or not males were previously disadvantaged. Merriam-Webster defines "sexism" as prejudice or discrimination based on sex. I think it is clear that in this example women would be discriminated against, not based on their skills or ability to perform the task at hand, but rather purely based off of the fact that they were born with the "wrong" sex. The same example can be taken, however, we substitute sex with race and voilà you now have black economic empowerment. There is a popular saying that states that two wrongs don't make a right. Disadvantaging others just because you either were or currently are disadvantaged can be likened to people that are drowning pulling down their saviours just to catch a moment's worth of breath. Ultimately, if they do not calm down and stop, both are likely to drown. I strongly agree with Helen, that equality of outcomes is an extremely slippery slope and can lead only to further injustices and division. Instead, equality of opportunities is a much more realistic and fair-ish goal to strive for. With that said, I would like to also address a point made by Thuli, where she states that because of a person's network they will remain either advantaged/disadvantaged. I understand the logic, however, I disagree on the belief that this is a problem that government or institutions should concern themselves with. I understand that a person is heavily influenced by those that they are surrounded by, however, I believe a better approach would be to slowly (perhaps even over generations) improve the quality of the people found in disadvantaged communities. Currently the systems in South Africa, a highly likely to uplift individuals that were previously disadvantaged, while the rest of the disadvantaged community remains in poverty. Can those individuals have a positive influence on the well-being of their communities? Certainly! However, you are also simply maintaining inequality. Not necessarily in terms of the number of people that are disadvantaged in comparison to the number of well-off individuals, but rather in that the community will remain in poverty while one person enjoys the luxuries of life. Would it not be better, to have the government focus on slowly improving the quality-of-life experienced by the entirety of these communities, while allowing members of the community to individually speed up the process through hard work, instead of uplifting only individuals? Thank you for the opportunity to share my views. I hope that whosoever made it to this point found some sort of value out of the above statements. Finally, I would just like to thank both Thuli and Helen for a very cordial discussion throughout this episode. Something that is sorely lacking in our parliament. Good day and God bless!

Hi Helen... get us, SA.....back on track please, GOOD LUCK

"Social justice' sounds suspicious to me, because it suggests something different than "justice" without any adjective.

Fidel after Fidel Castro... Hmmmm...................... :(

Helen Zille probably didn't mean to rip him apart, but she did. She is a well-read woman and people should start recognising this and start looking past her white skin.

Please do one of these with JuJu. It'll be great for dramacoin.

I was so good at Zulu in primary school. But when I got to high school it was dominated by mother tongue Zulu students, and the teaching methodology was so hard to keep up with, I effectively fell behind and was excluded that I gave it up. Even Afrikaans was taught as a second language when it ought to have been taught as a foreign language (TEFL method) to us KZN students. I ended up with rusty Zulu and virtually no functional Afrikaans, when we ought to have been at least intermediate in both after matric. Terrible loss for a generation. A country that cannot speak together cannot work together. Ironically it is English that has thus far kept our social cohesion satisfactory. But there is far more potential.

This interview was all about dropping each other's archives - shade, bombs and Files all in there

LOL 2 Apartheid beneficiaries arguing about who benefited more hahahahaha Im not racist I have black friends hahhaha