Medieval dagger fighting and the icepick grip - a response to Lindybeige
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- čas přidán 27. 01. 2015
- Medieval dagger fighting and the icepick grip - a response to Lindybeige.
Image sources used incude Fiore dei Liberi, Codex Wallerstein, Hans Talhoffer, Filippo Vadi, Paulus Kal, Achille Marozzo and Nicholas Petter.
Special thanks to Wiktenauer for hosting so many medieval treatises.
The dagger in this video is a late-14th century baselard by Fabrice Cognot, Bladesmith. - Sport
I think I speak for the entire internet when I say that this should be settled by a duel.
Why so few likes - I don't understand.
Agreed let the dual begin
After a cup of tea, obviously.
@@stephenle-surf9893 where is that from ?? Mc Shan, buck 65 sample is the only place I've heard it
Lloyd may not win the argument, but he does score points for putting it in verse!
It's good to see the amount of respect you guys show each other when you disagree. I'm so used to youtube being full of bile and nastiness that seeing well thought out arguments put across coherently and respectfully is a breath of fresh air.
Same about how people in the comments are bilious toward Lloyd, while Matt remains affable and pleasant about it, maintaining a humorous exchange with Lloyd.
Welcome to the HEMA community.
I think that the activity of constantly trying to interpret grainy images with captions in languages you don't understand, and that have changed since the source was created, to extrapolate intense fighting techniques, all the while knowing you are probably dead wrong, and being confused as hell the whole time, gives one some portion of humility...
I'm genuinely curious about the dislikes - are they because you disagree with something I said? Or that you disagree that both grips have been used extensively throughout history in various contexts, for a variety of reasons?
I didn't like or dislike, but I would be tempted to dislike as his video was a poem (in rhyme) and he likely could not address as many points as otherwise.
It's youtube. People will dislike videos just because they don't like the color of your wall...Very nice video though, adds well to what Lindybeige said.
You should link to his video IMO.
Few! Thanks for making this vid ,Lloyds (luv im still) vid really twisted my melon :) . Surely a Skilled fighter would switch to suit the moment, Im sure Matt could change his grip on most daggers and knifes in the blink of an eye anyhow witch renders any "controversy " moot ???
woofalot13
Well, not really. What a really good fighter would do is read the situation, and then stay in the appropriate grip. You don't want to fumble with a dagger under stress, and you absolutely shouldn't change grip while things are happening - say, someone is coming at you. So, not so much switching grips to suit the moment, more like switching the grip to suit the fight.
As for the controversy, well, it mostly comes from arguing about which one is better in a given situation, which can be far from clear.
When a guy gets in front of the camera and speaks for 10 minutes with complete confidence and fact based on a subject it is a total pleasure to watch, THANKS Matt that was a great video, you showed your expertise, spoke about at least 3 different dagger techniques and all with an obvious foundation in many years study and diligence, I love to see experts talking on a subject they are passionate about, One of your best videos brother.
TheBognordave Well thanks; it's really good to know when someone thinks I've done something well.
Your wealth of knowledge is sdaggering.
He did bring up some good points.
the panzie man and some sharp arguments
Jacob Cedar his info was hard as ice, glad he did pick a persuasive way to state it, he's got a grip on what he's talking about
Hansl Lavenburg Personally, I found the video a little short.
Ahhh, so many puns... They pierce my heart with happiness.
Great points, I myself usually prefer a downward grip, though I'm definitely no expert.
A lot of it is as a female, guys that work out an equal amount to me will generally be stronger, so the leverage you get from this grip helps mitigate it, quite a lot.
The main thing I am convinced of once again is that I never want to be in a knife fight.
Or any fight of a deadly nature, for that matter.
I simply have no business in such a fight.
But the techniques are fascinating!
And I would much rather know them or know about them if I had the need.
I believe there is a HEMA club an hour away in Portland, Oregon.
Perhaps I owe it to myself and my family to learn this stuff.
And then I can buy a sword as well, right Honey?
Maybe a half dozen to cover the different period styles?
And the dagger. Cannot forget the dagger or three.
Thanks Matt. I really enjoy these videos with an ongoing discussion.
It also depends on the weapon one is defending against, I would say. The dagger shown is mid-length and could be used more effectively against swords when held point up than point down. This is because, while you can indeed use the dagger for grappling and it's very useful for that, you can not use it that way to grapple a sword, or any weapon that is substantially longer than the dagger. Another point (forgive the pun) that was not really expressed was that point up has a longer range of attack than point down, which means that it is possible to hit the opponent from further away with the point up. Now then, the speaker is absolutely correct in saying that the choice is completely dependent on context, and that both are useful depending on the factors involved with the combat, including both weapons and armor.
Thank you for this good summary!
One thing I'd like to add: if you'rre unarmored you don't want to risk grappling and rather keep your distance. This speaks for the tip-up grip.
Love it. I've been watching both yours and Lindybeige's videos and find them both interesting. Hearing two sides of the story, the back and forth about historical weapon use.
Thanks for making this video. I was struggling to make realistic looking knife animations for my game and this helped a lot
Very good instruction and information. Your a true expert, that’s hard to find on CZcams these days
I love your channel dude. I thought I knew a lot about weapons but I've learned something new in every one of your videos.
Matt, the US Army taught us both ways to attack holding a knife. I remember they also taught us a slash using the "ice pick" grip that was thrown like a boxer throwing a punch.
Your videos are great stuff. Thank you, Dante.
When I was experimenting with butterfly knives back in the 80's I rediscovered many of the approaches you discuss in this video. Thanks for explaining it better than I could!
best video I've seen on this so far. In fact, watching lindybeige's video on this made me tune into your response. Great work.
One of the best videos and expositions. Shows why this is by far the better european martial art-weapons related channel on CZcams.
Very very well done. Great facts and clear presentation!
Good video, and good points.
Fighting isn't about being stuck in a single style and, for example, only holding a dagger in the icepick grip regardless of what an opponent does.
Pretty sure they would alternate both the icepick grip and sword-grip as you call it, depending on what they expect their opponent to do next or in preparation for what they are planning to do next themselves.
you're a great cure for my insomnia, 5 minutes and I'm asleep. Thanks.
Finally it was said. You did a quite good job on the topic!
I would say that the largest advantage to the point down grip is that it is exponentially faster to deploy if the knife is sitting on your belt.
Fantastic, the video you replied is the subject of debate right now on the sbg forum and this is a great addition.
Very nice explanation. I've been practicing Filipino martial arts for 40 years, so I am quite familiar with the use of icepick grip in that area. I found it interesting to see the many similarities in the use of this grip in Medieval European arts.
I wish there were a playlist of just different people responding to LindyBeige videos. I find the guy amicable and fairly well-read but when he misses the plot he does so in fantastical fashion. My personal favorite is still the 'Bren vs. Spandau' debacle.
When I saw the thumbnail, I thought he was going to answer in poetry form. That would have been awesome!
Best short edged weapon video from the HEMA point of view pertaining to the more subtle differences in grip.
Another excellent video Matt!
I heartily agree with your analysis. As a teacher of Talhoffer's dagger style I applaud your answer.
Having now watched Lindybeige's video, he does address the icepick grip from the inside line, but he only references one action from a treatise which is combined with ducking and coming into close quarters and stabbing upwards with the icepick grip. His disagreement with that though was not the icepick grip per se, but with the "slowness" of the whole ducking and closing action before the actual stab. But even that criticism kind of speaks to what you said about context. Many "fancy" attacks seem too slow, but they're not mean to be used in a context of a standoff, but rather something that may happen in the split second you find yourself in close quarters avoiding a grapple etc.
Yeah, also there's no requirement that you crouch and come up and if you did it wouldn't be to engage, it would be done in a grapple. He seemed to suggest you can only attack straight down or straight up, which is obviously dumb because you can easily and powerfully attack from any angle on the left side.
I never thought of the power concept for the reverse grip. It makes sense being that the triceps make up 2/3 of the muscle in the arm. thank you for the clarification.
Hello Matt. Nice video! You have two points more: The not edged aspect of some weapons justify totally this icepick grip too. And, simply, the side of the body you carry your weapon. On right side you'll be quick to declad with this grip.
yeah that's a really good point, wherever the knife is on your body, the hilt is obviously up meaning it can be drawn more quickly with the point down rather than drawing and turning the knife
Robert Rutledge There is an exception to that. If you have your blade sheathed at the small of your back, or off centered slightly with the the handle facing your drawing hand. It can be worn anywhere between 45 degrees to your hand, or horizontally(if the shield holds it...).
Context is everything. Armour! The point down grip has a much better chance of puncturing armour.
I like to think of it as a big tool kit. Techniques using both grips are just more tools in your tool box.
That's pretty hardcore. Great explanations for a question I have wondered about myself.
You make Good videos. You talk & explain very well. Plus you made it fun to watch and learn some history too... Like✔
You focused primarily on the thrusts/stabs, but it's important to remember that you can also cut and slash with an icepick grip - rather powerfully at that. In fact certain weapons (such as the karambit) are designed to be used with a predominantly downward grip to deliver some devastating slashes.
Another important point to consider is that with knives & daggers you can change grips - and even switch hands - rather easily, so you're not restricted to just sticking with one grip or the other. You can mix & match as the situation dictates.
An excellent summation of the main points in favour of the point-down grip. A fifth point I would add (which I'm sure Matt knows but left out for brevity's sake):
- Point-down is a much stronger grip, biomechanically speaking, as the wrist is naturally locked into a less flexible but more secure position. One is much less likely to lose one's grip on the dagger if held in this fashion, especially when it is being torqued and wrenched about during a life & death struggle at extreme close ranges.
This is freken amazing . Thank you for educating me 5:57 is my favorite part.
That was great, man. Thank you.
Never thought you could parry with point down, great video
very good video. Makes sense. Thanks.
Really interesting video, thanks.
No kidding, when I first saw Lloyd's video, I automatically started waiting for this given video.
I notice a funny point. I watched Lloyd video (again), this video and Thegn video.
On his video, Lloyd use a really tiny blade to show his point. With a so short and fragile blade, direct grip makes some sense.
You and Thegn show real medieval (long, double edged and with a pommel) daggers. Icepick grip makes a lot of sense.
Couldn't agree more Matt. Context is king.
Good points on the reverse grip/ice pick grip. In rondel sparring I use both grips and switch between them during the fight. The "sword grip" giving better reach can make it easier to target the hands, and also for defensive two handed grip (gripping the blade point). But this is mostly dagger on dagger action.
Nice video. Very informative.
Yesssssssssss!!!!!!! Another stellar video
Great video man!! I appreciate much the fact that you don´t speak in absolutes and encourage the viewer to think and consider the many different scenarios, advantages and disadvantages (Also nice to see images from Flos duellatorum there). I only have two comments, no criticism at all, just comments: I don't agree that you can only "hook" with icepick grip, I believe that's also possible with the "sword" grip. Not point forward, ok, but yes let's say with a "hammer" grip. Then something that's not mentioned, although maybe not soo critical: I believe that you have a little less total reach with icepick grip than with forward grip, especially with a long dagger such as the nice basilard from the video (A totally irrelevant difference however with a short dagger). Finally: Great videos!!! I really enjoy your work, please keep up sharing them. Thanks!
Verry well put!
Fair, informative, & thorough !!
Kudos to Matt. I think many important points were raised. Context ofcourse is the primary one. All martial arts are constrained by the context that they were developed for. Clothes and thus the season (if we are talking about European context) will be crucial factors to decide which weapons and which techniques will be most effective. As Matt mentioned, "caveman" mentality is what often dominates actual fights. Read the police reports or the more visceral scenes of the Illiad - the beastly brawl has the same body mechanics across the ages.
An important point to raise - many old fencing schools as well as most modern schools of defence focus on teaching students to defend against untrained/poorly trained opponent. And those brawlers, often in hot blood and driven by anger follow the familiar "caveman" pattern. It does make sense. It is important that people who are interested in martial arts are trained to understand and react against those patterns. It is a moot point to say that sword grip, "ice pick grip", or hammer grip is absolutely superior to others. The superiority is only demonstrated by efficacy within certain context
Great video, Matt. Back when I watched Loyd's video I actually thought of penetration power and stabbing into the opponents. I didn't think of the use of the icepick-grip in grappling, though. Very interessting.
Great information, I agree with your points
I heard that the Bowie knife was invented by David Bowie, just after his Ziggy Stardust period, as a way of vanquishing the hippy culture once and for all, while it was in its final death throws. Is this true?
+comanchio1976 *throes
Indeed, thanks.
Nice point about stress. It would indeed make sense to teach defenses against that.
Hi!
I'm far from a knife-dagger professional, but I agree with you at most. However I think the point up grip is better (at least in some ways) in defense, because of:
-reach! and keeping the attacker at bay (if you don't want to grapple because of weight and strength, for example)
-deflect an another blade with steel seems to be a better idea than with the forearm
-crossguard (Marozzo and the latters tend to use "parrying daggers")
Add to these, it enables more using of the edge. Besides, the whole thing is very context-dependent, as you say, like clothing.
I also agree that every system contains both type of grips and techniques related each of them, but the emphasis shifts here-and-there in different times according to context.
Let me just say that I'm not a knife fighter, and all the training I've had with knives teaches me that I never want to get into a knife fight. But a point about the ice pick grip that people tend to overlook is the fact that once you show the opponent that you have a blade, you have lost much of the advantage that the blade gives you in a fight against an unarmed opponent. A lot of self-defense instructors will tell you that fingers turn into flippers under stress, meaning that gross motor skills are much more reliable under stress than fine motor skills for those who do not practice the techniques under stress.
An example of this is that I carry a firearm on my dominant hand side, so I've switched to carrying a push dagger on my non-dominant side because I am more comfortable using gross motor skills with that hand if it comes to grappling. I find that many of the fine motor skills necessary for kali escrima techniques, i.e. kitchen knife grip blade techniques, are difficult for me to do with my left hand, so I prefer to simplify it to the grappling, jabbing and hook punching that I'm already used to doing with my left hand in a fight. It also gives me a weapon in my non-dominant hand to fend off an attacker with while I draw my firearm, which I would much rather use to defend myself with than any knife, and does not interfere with my normal two-hand grip on my pistol.
So it really boils down to which techniques you have trained in to the point of failure, under stress, and against skilled opposition. If you are just going to carry a weapon without taking the time to learn how to fight with it, by a reliable instructor and against skilled opponents, then you need to make it as simple as you can. And that is to use a fixed blade knife in an icepick grip, and to keep the blade hidden from the opponent for as long as you can. Or you can do the smart thing and get competent instruction in whatever weapons you intend to carry for self-defense, and to practice against skilled opponents to the point of failure. Because finding the failure points in your techniques teaches you much more about how to adapt those techniques in a real fight than anything else can. Also, your opinions on what is the best techniques or grips may change once you have actual training with the weapons, or you may decide a different weapon or fighting style is better for you. Trust me, as I've gotten more training and carried weapons on a daily basis, I've changed my daily carry several times; everything from which weapon combo I carry every day to where on my person I carry them to what clothing and accessories I wear in order to better conceal my choice carry options. Its all very personal, and can only be learned by training and experience. You might find something works better for you whereas I find it isn't practical for me, or vice versa.
Semper Fi
Apart from its efficacy in medieval close quarters combat, the icepick grip was also extensively employed in the knife fighting techniques taught by Michael D. Echanis and illustrated in his several books, cf. Knife Fighting, Knife Throwing for Combat (Special Forces/Ranger-Udt/Seal Hand-To-Hand Combat/Special W). Scholagladiatoria mentions the Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife usually associated with 20th century close quarters knife combat, and often associated with a forward grip, but I didn't hear him mention Echanis.
THANK YOU
I love LindyBeige's videos and work, but that video you're responding to was the first of his I ended up actually disliking. Putting it right was a relief to watch, can't have someone be wrong on the internet!
Excellent!
It's amazing how Matt makes these points very respectfully and yet the comments make it look as if he's attacking Loyd. There is no need to badmouth lindybeige or to say that he got "owned". What the fuck guys?
Great video. When you were talking about hooking and forearm blocks it got me thinking about the tonfa. I know European edged weapons is your expertise, but any chance of a video on the tonfa, or just bludgeoning weapons in general?
Please never stop making videos!
Matt, I enjoyed this one and agree with all of your points raised. Although context is hugely relevant, FMA illustrate quite well that in the lightly clothed modern world the main advantage of point up or sabre grip with knives and daggers is greater reach. A simple drill with two opponents standing at arms length with one holding a knife point down and the other point up, will quickly prove that with some ease the latter can offend with potentially fatal strikes whilst remaining out of range.
Colin Frost The opponent's hand and arm are always in range if they are attacking you. FMA illustrates this most famously.
Excellent points
imho using "reverse" or "forhand" grip is determinated dominantly with knife or dagger, especially with its lenght and weight and also with type and shape of blade. heavy longer weapons are better for cutting and bloking, using more power etc. but it is many more visible, usually slower and in general better to block it. shorter and light knives or daggers are not suitable too much for cutting, blocking. thrust is almost impossible (with exception of neck or similar areas)! but: they are very fast, easy to hide (mean in motion), you can use it in some "fury" offensive style which is almost unstoppable and very hard to defend and their main goal is to slice (soft body parts). i also think that is possible to pary with forhand grip (and short blade) but a little bit differently than with reverse grip. maybe it needs more practise but it would be even better than with long blades, downside is that is very limited with one's free handed fighting abilities...
I was in agreement with Lloyd before but I've learned a lot from this. "Ice pick" grip didn't really make much sense to me but I've had pretty limited experience with offhand dagger and armour hasn't been taken in to account with sparring.
while gripping the dagger point down throwing a slightly offtarget straight punch to the throat results in a powerful cut against said throat, i also think that using the point down grip one can use much more unarmed techniques than while using the point up one.
I like to think of Lloyd as knowing a lot more about history in general (e.g., he has really good videos on torches and things like that), and Matt as being way more specialized in medieval (and of course 18th 19th century) armaments. Both viewpoints are valuable, and both make really good videos and it's great that discourse can be had. I'm still waiting for that google hangout
I really hoped you will also do this in rhyme ;D
Marz I'm not theatrical enough for that.
Reverse grip = shorter reach, slower execution, low accuracy, single burst damage
Normal grip = longer reach, faster execution, high accuracy, high rate multi attacks
Very powerful points
Fine motor skills are the first function discarded by the body during a stressful situation, gross motor skills are all that remain and this is why so many defensive tactics specialise on said gross motor skill based techniques, martial artists take this to the next level through training, mental conditioning and muscle memory.
As you said, context is everything. For example, I found a very interesting book lately: "Put ‘Em Down. Take ‘Em Out!: Knife Fighting Techniques From Folsom Prison" and their technics are completely different.
Another fabulous video, Matt. I thought Lloyd was a bit odd in his original bit since there was no solid context for his opinions, and he was a touch...frantic? I am not sure if that's the word I wish to use but it is what comes to mind. Everything I thought about to counter his opinion was well captured in your response, of course, especially positioning the blade along the arm and the ability to hook with a downward pointing grip. Martial arts isn't a game of taking turns hitting one another until someone gives up, as we know.
My only problem now is that I really would like a baselard. That is a very nice piece. Thanks for the effort you put in to these videos. The research and logic captured in what you do is appreciated!
Excellent explanation. Subbed.
+David Mosier better subbed then stabbed (sorry i was reading the discussion above full of puns and cant resist)
Gabriele De Carli excellent repost!
Another very good video Matt. I would be very interested in a video or more about Bowie knife fighting and also knife defense in general. It sort links into this video and is something I do some training in, so would be great to hear you views etc.
Cheers.
Another point that came to me : point down gripping might make a better drawing solution at close range. Let me explain : you draw your dagger point down and cut in the same movement, it's more difficult to achieve with point up, you've got to turn your hand move a bit, make a "swing" (don't know how to explain). Also defending against an attack at close range from the backmight be easier, you just have to draw and hit and your back side (you might also do it point up but then you're striking on your opposite side, with less reach). Don't know if this is clear, it's not easy to explain
very well explained!!...except,the stab from the outside is strong and very useful as well! ;O)
Remember his key word, "context". It's always the operative word in any battle...and at the end of the days, whatever works, use it. Don't be a slave to your fighting style.
good points and I would not argue against it being a very natural way to use a knife but I would submit that the documents you used to support your argument depict one of the weaknesses of the ice-pick grip in that it is easier to block then a thrust which moves in quicker. Like a round house punch the ice pick hold telegraphs itself and the defender only needs to grab the arm. It also lends itself into being used against the person holding it since the hook as you describe it points the tip at the user.
I found this video really fascinating, maybe because knives still exists and swords don't, the context of what you said was immediately relatable, as opposed to discussions about sword fighting, though they are also more that a little excellent. Good stuff Matt!
I think a lot of what Lindybeige said in the video, he had to say, because, while he was discussing the merits of the sword grip over the icepick, he was also reciting a poem that had to rhyme, which greatly limits the amount of nuance you can apply to a topic.
I love the T handle or push dagger for this reason, its not point up or point down but I hate the fact that the wrist serves no advantage when turned with a push dagger. I guess it really doesn't matter a great deal as long as you know the limits of a dagger and the grip style and handle style. Knowing this helps you work with the disadvantages of that weapon and its grip.
YES, the open-ended triangle that the ice-pick grip provides is of great importance. Remember to look for the open-ended triangles in close half-swording, stick grappling and arm locks.
If you want to learn knife/dagger fighting or self defense but also if you are just interested in the theory i would realy recomend learing about both grips and not focusing on the style or being biased. Knowing both and being able to switch can make a huge atvantage and gives you a far better picture of the whole subject.
That odd moment when you realise that you've learned all the techniques used in those treatises shown.
I've worked with knife combat for a while now and always wondered why the medieval treatises seemed to favor the "icepick", while in my own experience the point up grip works better. I hadn't considered that the heavier padded clothing of the time is fairly good armor against slashes. Thank you for the explanation.
I do appreciate your interest in Bowie, tomahawk and evaluating close melee applications
I've been waiting for this response.
I actually wish Skall Lindy and Matt would do each others topics. There are some videos of Matts I would like Skall to talk about and vise versa.
Tatti12321 There are some videos that I haven't done because Skall or Lloyd basically covered it all. However, there are videos from both of them that I will post additions/responses to at some point.
Cernel Joson
Thanks, I've been trying to remember the name for a fortnight, time to catch up on some videos.
scholagladiatoria
If they covered the points completely there isn't much point reiterating I suppose. But as for the others, I look forward to it.
It looks like trying to block an attack with the point-up grip would be just as likely to deflect a blow towards the defender as away from him.
I also found it interesting that you mention the point-up grip being used to "shiv" people in prison movies, but the one that comes to mind is in the movie "Out of Sight" where Don Cheadle stabs another inmate to death and in that scene the weapon is used with the "ice pick" grip. The stabbing scene also shows an advantage for the "ice pick" grip: He can stab the stab the victim several times very quickly and forcefully.
As soon as I saw LLoyd's video, I knew this was coming. (I also knew I would hear the word "equally" frequently.) It was a pleasure watching both.
A point in favor of Lindy's argument. I think for most of us with marginal skills and little or no practice/training, the point up motions are far more natural. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do a quick and accurate upward thrust from the ice pick grip in the way Mr. Easton shows here. Is it a good strike / defend combo? Yes. Could most of us do it so fluidly? No. Whereas most of us could give ourselves enough range to stave off an empty handed or knife wielding attacker point up with simple thrust and slash motions - so long as the attacker was not suicidal, or indifferent to injury.
Further, most knives we are likely to have about our person now, are more like 2-4" in the blades and single edged. This can be used for the hooking motion, without probable cuts, but severely limits reach. Also it more or less precludes the type of blocks Matt showed without extreme risk that the blow will either miss the blade, or slide off it into the forearm.
I like discussions here. I've been corrected when I mispoke in the past with articulate and intelligent responses.
I also have worked in a prosecutor's office, and a jail. I have a degree in law and justice. So my work and interests have led me to see plenty of the results of stabbings. I can say the pattern prison shiv (from the Italian schiavona perhaps?) attack is not icepick style, but rather point up. The usual method is to hold the shiv point up, concealed in the palm and drop it fully into the hand while walking by or rushing up. The attacker approaches the victim from behind and left. The thrusts are with the arm held level, upward into the kidney and liver area below the left scapula from behind. This requires the victim to turn to the left and defend first with his non-dominant hand and elbow initially. The attacker is stabbing as fast as possible. Perhaps 20-30 blows with a very short spike in a 1 minute or less period. The goal is not so much to kill the guy outright as to puncture so many organs in that area that infection is guaranteed and surgery would require removing most of the intestines, at least one kidney and that the liver is irreparably damaged. I've seen photos of a few and read countless training and security packets on this stuff. Guards (who prefer not to be called guards) take this kind of thing seriously and produce lots of analysis for attacks to be able to spot one coming and stop it, and to treat them as effectively as possible.
Matt did say that shank (or organised, planed, professional crimes) uses point up grip. Ice pick grip is commonly used for common people under stress trying to kill another person (not so organised or not so "professional").
Wenzhe Shi Exactly.
Wenzhe Shi he said overhand for a shiv attack as in a prison, and described a single thrust in a premeditated sneak attack. My point is that the sneak attack is point up, but is rather frenzied.
A drug related murder case I helped with had hundreds of mostly point up stabs all over the body. The man would have survived, but the medics couldn't get blood into him. Drug use had scarred up all the obvious veins.
What do you two think of the other points I made though re short folding knives and skill level favoring point up in a modern context?
new point:
"over kill" is generally thought of in criminology as a sign of a young male attacker, but I think that is a foolish stereotype based on pre-conceptions. I worked on an overhand frenzy stab case in which a woman jumped out of a shower and stabbed a man overhand, and also tried to shoot him.
The Jodi Arias case involved a pre-meditated frenzy stabbing, which seems to have been ice pick style, but could have been both. She also shot him with a small pistol.
GunFun ZS I personally think the sizes of the EDC knives are one of the reason why point up is more popular.
Another current difference is that being attacked by someone who has been trained to fight with edged weapons is absurdly unlikely. So anyone who trains sensibly is doing so to fend off an unskilled attacker. Police etc. Are taught to block slashes, thrusts and stabs toward their face and belly, with a basic understanding that they are either trying to get distance and tase the guy, or close and cuff.
The most common stance is forearms crossed hands at about waist level in an athletic crouch. Alternatively with one hand raised to cover the throat area and catch incoming strikes.
I've been told that downed pilots are trained to simply shove a knife in edge up from a hammer grip and pull upward, push the victim on the shoulder with the other hand, and run off. The idea is to cause a wound which would impede pursuit. A prolonged or skilled fight is not even considered in that technique. If they attempt to block, the method is to hook and pull against their wrists and run off, as before.
My godfather was a marine recon soldier in Vietnam and he taught me how to fight with a knife he told me for the most part you only use the over hand grip if you have complete surprise on you side or you are facing someone with a weapon that has longer reach and you are try to close range. otherwise the underhanded grip is more advantages for reasons you have mentioned.
Is there a drinking game yet? I’d like to see a group of guys getting together, watching one of these videos, and taking a drink each time Matt says “context” or “point”
I would like to see a dagger fight between Lloyd and Matt. That's gotta be epic
I agree with your position and the technical arguments you offer, but would like to make a note about the "argument from the treatises"; I think it's more accurate to say that the treatises tend to show a lot more defenses against reverse grip attacks than against forward grip attacks. It's a matter of speculation whether this means those attacks were more common and popular, or that there were just more different defenses against them that the masters wanted to show in their treatises. As an example of this kind of thing, I think one of the reasons Talhoffer shows as many counters to the "shield" and "shear" techniques is mostly because they are relatively easy to counter, since they follow Liechtenauer's rule against purely defensive moves less closely than most other techniques, and not necessarily because they were exceptionally common.
In this case I too think reverse grip was more common, but frequency of occurrence in the manuals by itself doesn't necessarily translate to frequency in actual combat...
Do you not think the point down grip was more natural due to knives being worn on the right, as opposed to the sword and therefore the straight 'lift and into action' would be more common?
Good video. Interesting. Another thing: if someone grabbed my weapon arm and started to bend it at the elbow, I would rather that my dagger was pointing down away from my face than up and towards it. I think our modern view is clouded by the fact that we tend to think of fighting with the weapons themselves (e.g. fencing) rather than fighting with everything you've got: fists, elbows, grappling, knees, and the weapon.
The biggest reason is grappling. Grab the wrist with the blade. In "icepick" style, they can still stab you if they manage to push into you. In the other style, you now have control of the weapon.
Personal experience with full contact, full speed knife fighting practice: point down is better defensively, but harder to get a kill in with. Point up requires your defense to be a strong offense (attacking the attacking arm, usually), but knife fights are very aggressive and fast paced things, so it's more natural anyway. I prefer point up. Unless we're talking about a karambit. Those things are nasty if you know how to use them.