Where you a former JW? If so how do you nicely break off from the indoctrination session. Or from a JW perspective at what point do you consider a person a lost cause and discontinue Bible Study (indoctrination sessions).
I'd say it's more gnostic than that. The famous separation between Nelson Barbour and Chuck Russell was over the resurrection of Jesus and his nature. Barbour said Jesus was raised in the flesh and Russell with his legal training and thinking created this idea that had Jesus done that he would've nullified the ransom. Christadelphians also don't believe in a personal devil and are pro Israel.
Hello, i think your approach is so loving and has the potential to make a JW think a little moreso than other approaches. I was a JW for 46 years before leaving. Im now Agnostic, but im a firm believer that everyone needs to find what works for them personally. And if you do believe in the Bible, you are obviously teaching it correctly. You have gone through much schooling to understand it well. After i left the organization, i read 3 different versions of real Bibles, looking to draw close to Jesus because i realized the Bible taught the Trinity as Truth. But as i studied, i had a difficult time with the misogyny, slavery and homophobia. Just my point of view and i don't ask anyone to have my view. Its just mine. Thank you for your kindness, there are many lovely misguided ppl in the JW organization and many may want to understand and believe in the Bible, so you are doing a nice thing. Others, like myself and my family have come to another conclusion, but i love to think we can all be kind, loving and respectful of each others choices. Good Luck to you! (Im allowed to say that now, lol, as a JW you aren't allowed to say good luck, you can only say best wishes. There are so many insane 'rules' that have no biblical backing.) 🤷♀️ Have a wonderful day and the best to you and your family! 💗
@JustDeannaJune There are no misguided Jehovah's Witnesses in the faith. Just those like you whom Jehovah prevented from getting into the faith or booted out of the faith! Simple clear deduction!
@@daroweilburg7706 A few weeks ago, I had a conversation on this subject with relatives who are members of the Watchtower Society. After careful examination of the scripture in question, Jehovah's Witnesses agreed with me that the term "hama", which Paul deliberately and not accidentally chose in these passages in his letter, is to be understood in the sense of "simultaneous". Consequently, the act or procedure of "being caught away in clouds" will take place at a specific point in time and not over a longer period of time. Following the discussion, I confronted these people with the following question and asked them in this context to carry out an independent text analysis and inform me about the result a few days later. Although more than 4 weeks have passed since this conversation, I have not yet received a response from any of these participants. Questions ========= If all Christians who have already died since 1918 have been resurrected immediately after their death, then the question inevitably arises, where on this earth have these Christians who have been resurrected to this day found their temporary home until one day they will experience the act of rapture to heaven together with the survivors? How is it to be explained that Paul emphasizes that the occurrence of the event of parousia will bring about an intimate communion of life with Jesus for all Christians, when it is taught that Jesus will supposedly remain forever invisible to the majority of Christians? 1 Thessalonians 4,15-18 ( N W T Study Edition) 15 For this is what w e t e l l y o u b y J e h o v a h ’s w o r d , that we the living who survive t o t h e p r e s e n c e (note: "P a r o u s i a ") o f t h e L o r d will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because t h e L o r d h i m s e l f w i l l d e s c e n d f r o m h e a v e n with a commanding call, with an archangel’ voice and with God’s trumpet, and t h o s e w h o a r e d e a d i n u n i o n w i t h C h r i s t wi l l r i s e f i r s t 17 Afterward w e t h e l i v i n g w h o a r e s u r v i v i n g ===================================== w i l l , t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a " ) w i t h t h e m , b e c a u g h t a w a y i n c l o u d s ================================================================================ t o m e e t t h e L o r d i n t h e a i r ; ================================= a n d t h u s w e w i l l a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e L o r d. =================================================== 18 So keep c o m f o r t i n g o n e a n o t h e r w i t h t h e s e w o r d s. 1 Thessalonians 5,9-10 ( N W T Study Edition) 9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us, so that w h e t h e r w e s t a y a w a k e o r a r e a s l e e p , w e s h o u l d l i v e t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a ") w i t h h i m . ==============================================================
@@MR-gx3gc You are stuck on stupid and we cannot fix stupid! The word parousia means 'PRESENCE" not physically. We will see what Jesus does. We will not see him physically. Stop visiting the apostates. You are embarrassing yourself by spreading lies and misconceptions. Jesus will rule the earth from heaven...he will NOT be physically on this earth. He has been there and done that already! No need to return.
@@daroweilburg7706 I presented to you the message of the Apostle Paul in his first letter to the Thessalonians, based on your preferred version of the Bible. How can you dismiss the unequivocal statements of the apostle Paul as stupid? In this written message, the apostle Paul predicted that at the parousia of Christ, all Christians would experience at the same time the procedure of "being caught away in clouds". Any average intelligent reader will easily grasp the true meaning of this message. Questions to the Bible scholar ========================= 1.) At what point in his letter did Paul declare that the majority of Christ's followers would not participate in the procedure of "being caught away in clouds"?
2.) Did Paul foretell in his following message that Jesus would be visible to all his followers once the parousia would run its course, or that he would remain invisible to the majority of Christ's followers for all eternity? 1 Thessalonians 4,15-18 ( N W T Study Edition) 15 For this is what w e t e l l y o u b y J e h o v a h ’s w o r d , that we the living who survive t o t h e p r e s e n c e (note: "P a r o u s i a ") o f t h e L o r d ====================================================== will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because t h e L o r d h i m s e l f w i l l d e s c e n d f r o m h e a v e n with a commanding call, with an archangel’ voice and with God’s trumpet, and t h o s e w h o a r e d e a d i n u n i o n w i t h C h r i s t wi l l r i s e f i r s t 17 Afterward w e t h e l i v i n g w h o a r e s u r v i v i n g ===================================== w i l l , t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a " ) w i t h t h e m , b e c a u g h t a w a y i n c l o u d s ================================================================================ t o m e e t t h e L o r d i n t h e a i r ; ================================= a n d t h u s w e w i l l a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e L o r d. =================================================== 18 So keep c o m f o r t i n g o n e a n o t h e r w i t h t h e s e w o r d s. 1 Thessalonians 5,9-10 ( N W T Study Edition) 9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us, so that w h e t h e r w e s t a y a w a k e o r a r e a s l e e p , w e s h o u l d l i v e t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a ") w i t h h i m . ==============================================================
@@daroweilburg7706 In the spirit of careful exegesis, we will once again turn together to the relevant scripture on the basis of your preferred version of the Bible. As you can see, Paul obviously deliberately and not accidentally chose the same Greek word "hama" in each of the following passages. Question to the Bible scholar ========================= What is the true meaning of this particular word in Greek usage, according to the explanation of scholars? 1 Thessalonians 4,15-18 ( N W T Study Edition) 15 For this is what w e t e l l y o u b y J e h o v a h ’s w o r d , that we the living who survive t o t h e p r e s e n c e (note: "P a r o u s i a ") o f t h e L o r d ====================================================== will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because t h e L o r d h i m s e l f w i l l d e s c e n d f r o m h e a v e n with a commanding call, with an archangel’ voice and with God’s trumpet, and t h o s e w h o a r e d e a d i n u n i o n w i t h C h r i s t wi l l r i s e f i r s t 17 Afterward w e t h e l i v i n g w h o a r e s u r v i v i n g ===================================== w i l l , t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a " ) w i t h t h e m , b e c a u g h t a w a y i n c l o u d s ================================================================================ t o m e e t t h e L o r d i n t h e a i r ; ================================= a n d t h u s w e w i l l a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e L o r d. =================================================== 18 So keep c o m f o r t i n g o n e a n o t h e r w i t h t h e s e w o r d s. 1 Thessalonians 5,9-10 ( N W T Study Edition) 9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us, so that w h e t h e r w e s t a y a w a k e o r a r e a s l e e p , w e s h o u l d l i v e t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a ") w i t h h i m . ==============================================================
This all just sounds like a bunch of comic book nerds fighting over whether Batman or Spiderman is stronger. It was somewhat interesting. But your rant at the end about original sin reminded me again why not only can I not be a Jehovah's Witness, I can also not in good conscious be a Christian. The idea of original God sending himself to Earth to sacrifice himself just to satisfy some rules he made up entirely himself really shows how deeply immoral it is when you think about it for more than two seconds. I cannot in good conscious worship a hateful being who tries to gaslight humanity into believing that this is love.
Im a JDub, and I love watching other JDubs just get smoked in their arguments, and their lack of being able to have a healthy dialogue. It’s too bad they default to circular arguments. And….. Id let you pray with me.
As with any group the 80/20 rule applies. This means that well meaning, loving well intended people whom God will use to plant seeds are not ALWaYS going to be well spoken , well educated, or more articulate than you. You may be smarter, a better debater, than 80 percent or more of the Jehovah’s Witness you meet at your door. But they were caring enough to come to YOUR door. They are caring enough to learn second languages. Caring enough to talk to people in tenements, mansions, and in the street. Brave enough to go to rural areas no other church group bothers with and to gang members houses. So with all your education. What are you doing with it besides CZcams ? Or rather for the reader in the comments, the people who come to your door aren’t payed and go out of pocket to speak to you as a human being, what are you doing for total strangers that remotely compares. Jehovah uses the willing to accomplish His will. 2 Timothy 2:14, 23. Even a very well educated Witness will heed the scriptures when faced with an argumentative or debate oriented person.
I been doing “Bible study” with jw’s years now. I’m making it plainly clear that I’m not going to convert. Lately been covering in their teachings things that I really don’t agree with. What happens when we die? In their teachings we just go asleep and are selectively resurrected after the last days. I strongly disagree with that and think that’s absolutely absurd. I believe your souls are resurrected immediately and showed almost 20 scriptures that support that. Your right they twist, stretch and combine scriptures to their narrative and interpretation of the Bible, then tell me I’m going against Gods word. I just wondering how much longer it takes before they realize their wasting their time.
@@zachharwood Death is not the separation of someone's body with his soul. Someone does not have a soul because he/she is a soul. I don’t have a soul because i’m a soul.. You believe each of us has 2 kinds of parts. That is body and soul. But that’s not what bible says. Soul is not something invisible in yourself, and leave you when you have died. Soul it just mean life. Genesis 2:7 (KJV) : “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". Scripture says when God created the first man, Adam, the Bible says that “man became a living soul". Adam was not given a soul-he became a living soul, or person. Both animals and humans are souls. Bible says when someone die they become ashes and dust, not invisible spirit, waiting for the ressurection. And their prospect is to be ressurected in paradise on earth, not in heaven. Because Jesus says no one has ascended to heaven yet.
@@pearlytiger564 There is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. Ecclesiastes 3.19,20 : "All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.” “He returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish” psalm 146.4. Bible says when someone die they conscious of nothing at all. It wouldn't happen if someone still alive in different body after he/she die. Men cannot destroy our future life prospects, only God can. Also if we had an immortal soul that lives on after death, then Jesus didn't need to perform resurrections in the future.
You can still reach a JW by using their own Bible and their Interlinear. You can still find the divinity of Christ, among so many other things, with their NWT in addition to passages that refute their anti-Christ doctrines if you know where to look. There are many.
@@jahtruthdefender lord have mercy I have to type that all again. Stupid thing isn't posting my replies the first time for some reason. I should have copied and pasted just in case. Using the NWT, see 1 Corinthians 1: 15-18 where they added the word "other" four times. If you check their Interlinear, you will see that "other" is not there. Then ask the JW what would this passage mean if "other" was not there. They may throw the "firstborn" argument at you with regard to verse 15. Nonsense to think that it means first created. David was firstborn. He was the youngest of his many siblings. Israel was labeled firstborn but obviously not the first created nation. And then if you see verse 18, it states that he is the firstborn of the dead. The JWs forget that Jesus was not the first to be resurrected from death, Lazarus was so if they are going to take the word "firstborn" literally in verse 15 you would have to do the same thing for verse 18, which means Lazarus is the firstborn of the dead, which is not what that passage is saying. Firstborn in the Bible does not always mean first created. It's ranking for who will inherit. They fail to see things in context when they read the Bible. Technically their Bible isn't a Bible. It's called the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." It doesn't even say it's a Bible. An interesting tid bit that someone else on another channel brought up and thought I would share.
@@pearlytiger564 "Then ask the JW what would this passage mean if "other" was not there." The word "Firstborn" (prototokos) in Koine Greek always means (surprisingly) the first born. An attempt to change the meaning of this word is pure sophistry. "Firstborn" contains information that this person has some privileges, but "Firstborn" has privileges BECAUSE he is "the first". Secondly, if someone is "Firstborn" it must mean that this person belongs to some group. He is the first of this group. So whether or not Colosan has the word "other" doesn't matter, because "Firstborn" means the first of a group of creatures. Look at this: Revelation 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" Jesus is the beginning of God's creation "David was firstborn" Simply not true " Israel was labeled firstborn but obviously not the first created nation." Israel is called the first born son because God himself created Israel. How this happened is told in the book of Genesis and Exodus. Do you know any other nation that God personally created? "The JWs forget that Jesus was not the first to be resurrected from death, Lazarus was so...." Do you know the difference between the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus? Jesus lives and Lazas died and awaits his resurrection. Jesus is "firstborn from the dead" from another group, this group: Revelation 20:6 "“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”" " Technically their Bible isn't a Bible. It's called the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." It doesn't even say it's a Bible." Is this some kind of joke? The word bible comes from the Greek word "biblion" which simply means books. The Old and New Testaments were originally written on papyri. Later, Holy Scriptures began to be written down in the form of "biblions". And this is how the Holy Scriptures came to be called the Bible.
@@RiskeFactor you can read it and see what it’s saying. It’s not rocket science. It’s easy to see context when you have a basic understanding of grammar and syntax.
GOD uses SINGULAR PROSOPO for himself and that Greek word means FACE OR PERSON. it is NOT PLURAL PROSOPO. So GOD is SINGULAR PERSON and NOT THREE PERSONS. You don't use I AM, ME AND MYSELF for THREE LITERAL PERSONS
loooooooooooooooooooooool From a person in an org that doesnt have one scholar.... Lol - you see whats happening Daro?> You see it... Watchtower is dead mate... You got reinstated yet?
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 1Corinthians 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 1Peter1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
WHO IS OVER ALL? Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. GOD and FATHER is OVER/ABOVE ALL and that "All" includes the SON so they are NOT EQUAL THE BIBLE teaches that Jesus was MADE As Lord and Christ and as Son (ACTS 2:36, Prov 8, HEB 1:5), CREATED/PRODUCED/INSTALLED (Prov 8) , COME INTO BEING/MADE (Mat 21:42 - egeneto) and GIVEN LIFE by the Father - John 5:26 and it uses TODAY (Heb 1:5), and uses future tenses and is a prophecy in Isa 9:6 (Isa 9:6, - WILL BE) . If you are called MADE AND CREATED AND GIVEN LIFE, and NEVER CALLED in the BIBLE as Creator or Maker , then you are A CREATION. ALL FROM THE BIBLE From the Lord was this (this is referring to the chief cornerstone who is Jesus) , the word WAS is egeneto (made or came into being) - Matthew 21:42 and the exact Greek word used in John 1:3 - MADE, egeneto (came into being) - JESUS WAS MADE/CAME INTO BEING FROM THE FATHER , yes, Jesus was MADE/CREATED!, See also Acts 2:36, Heb 1:5, 1 john 5 Isa 9:6 the word Prince in the Prince of Peace means PATRON ANGEL also Leader. WHO IS the ONE LEADER that we have? Jesus. Now, that same exact Hebrew word was used for Daniel 12:1 which is used for Michael the Archangel. So are you saying there are MANY LEADERS now?
Jehovah's Witnesses have been thoroughly indoctrinated with the egotistical idea that JWs alone are true christians and JWs alone have the truth and everyone else believes falsehoods. This causes JWs to have a prideful superiority complex. This pride then blinds them from seeing how they're being deceived, or at the very least it causes them to live in a state of denial. You see its quite a painful blow to the ego to move from believing that you belong to the only true religion, to believing that your religion is false and misleading you. So they find any and every reason to deny the obvious fact that they're being taught falsehoods and being deceived. It reminds me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain: "It's easier to fool someone than convince them that they have been fooled. Caribbean man…
Once a JW has been fooled by Watchtower its very difficult to convince them that they've been fooled, because Watchtower imbues them with that disgusting, self-righteous, "we-alone-have-the-truth", pride.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus made everything that is in Heaven and on earth. That He made all of Creation...and that everything that was made has been made by Him. Thus it's impossible for Jesus to be a "created" being, otherwise those Scripture verses would be wrong.
I thought Jehovah's Witnesses would officially teach that Jehovah is the only true God who loves those who love the truth. So, will Jesus reject people who publicly disclose the truth about the history of the Watchtower Society and its many doctrinal changes?
@@MR-gx3gc Lies and propaganda from Apostates...Nope!!!! You haven't any truth to your claims...why do you idiots keep trying to hold the Watchtower as a leader of some sort. The Watchtower is just the entity the government requires to accept donations so the government can keep track. Why do you then hold those 9 governing body members to be perfect? Did you not learn that the Apostles made MANY mistakes? Peter would not eat with the gentile Christians he denied Christ there times...It took the 1st Governing Body 13 years on the circumcision issue and, on at least two occasions they were thinking Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom in the first century. Wow huh! Research! And stop reaching out to the apostates or better, stop being an apostate!!!!!!
@@daroweilburg7706 to your comment: Lies and propaganda from Apostates...Nope!!!! You haven't any truth to your claims...why do you idiots keep trying to hold the Watchtower as a leader of some sort. The Watchtower is just the entity the government requires to accept donations so the government can keep track. Why do you then hold those 9 governing body members to be perfect? --------------------------------------------------------------------- How can you presume to call your fellow men apostates, even though they are not guilty of false teachings and, above all, of false predictions in the name of God? I strongly recommend that you practice humility and restraint. Questions to the Bible scholar ========================= 1.) Are you even aware of how often the term "apostasy" or "apostate" appears in the New Testament and, above all, in connection with whom? 2.) Did God appoint a faithful slave or Governing Body in 1919? Where in their writings did New Testament writers, such as Peter and Paul, refer to themselves as members of a Governing Body? If all your teachings are based on the Bible, you will surely be able to cite a biblical source to justify this practice.
@@daroweilburg7706 Questions to the Bible scholar ========================= 1.) Are you even aware of how often the term "apostasy" or "apostate" appears in the New Testament and, above all, in connection with whom? 2.) Did God appoint a faithful slave or Governing Body in 1919? Where in their writings did New Testament writers, such as Peter and Paul, refer to themselves as members of a Governing Body? If all your teachings are based on the Bible, you will surely be able to cite a biblical source to justify this practice.
@@MR-gx3gc You being an apostate would warrant your keeping track of the times apostate appears. I will not banter scripture with you, I made that quite clear. You are still stuck on stupid and I still cannot fix stupid.
you are arguing from the premise that the Bible itself is inerrant /ɪnˈɛr(ə)nt/ unfortunaly #~you dont know whats written in the first place ie the gospels is true in the first place its the basics
What do you mean by true? The wisdom in Scripture is true. The teachings of Jesus have stood the test of time. The principles and commandments from the old testament have stood the test of time. The wisdom of the Bible has proven to be true for ages. No serious scholar will say that Jesus didn't live. We know that there was a being called Jesus of Nazareth that lived, taught, and was crucified by the Romans. The crucifixion and resurrection is one of the most well attested facts in history. To the point where the only suggested explanations are that either Jesus really did live, or there was a localized mass hallucination. We know that the writings of the apostles hasn't been changed, as we have more copies of the original work than any other historical text. The copies are dated closest to the original writing more than any other historical text. The criteria for textual criticism is passed by the new and old testament that if anyone were to say they didn't believe them, then they'd have to deny Greek history, Roman history, the writings of Pythagoras, and much more. As the Bible far surpasses the illiad, the oddesy, the annals of tacitus, and so on. You're free to say whatever you want, but when it comes to the question "how do you know it's true", it's answered for the Bible far more than any other historical text. Now this just leaves to question the old testament stories of Genesis, Abraham, Moses, the flood etc. We know the events of Exodus played out. So the account of Moses, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Saul, David, and up through the exile and return all historically happened. That leaves the tower of Babel, The Great Flood, and the Garden of Eden up for debate. Did that stuff really happen? Was it parabolic? I have my personal answer. But you can believe those 3 events are parabolic and still be a Trinitarian Christian.
@@bryceneuberger3460 God prays to himself, talks to himself, and even accused himself of forsaking himself on one occasion. Go Trinity...right to the trash! You are labeling God a paranoid schizophrenic.
You wont get anywhere when either side is hypocritical.
JW: "Questioning your religion=good
Also JW: "Questioning JW=bad."
You describe perfectly the mind of a JW... I used to be just like that.
I'm so glad you found freedom!!!
Where you a former JW? If so how do you nicely break off from the indoctrination session. Or from a JW perspective at what point do you consider a person a lost cause and discontinue Bible Study (indoctrination sessions).
Keep being that mustard seed, brother, and I'll try as well
Your amazing absolutely spot on. My mother has been a JW for 35 years. No matter what scriptures I show her or explain to her she will not budge.
Possibly because she knows those scriptures don’t support what you are saying
@jahtruthdefender then show me where you shouldn't partake and where is it ever stated of a paradise earth in the new testament
the JW religion comes from the traditions of the Christodelphians Dr John Thomas and prophetic ideas of the Adventists
I'd say it's more gnostic than that. The famous separation between Nelson Barbour and Chuck Russell was over the resurrection of Jesus and his nature. Barbour said Jesus was raised in the flesh and Russell with his legal training and thinking created this idea that had Jesus done that he would've nullified the ransom. Christadelphians also don't believe in a personal devil and are pro Israel.
Hello, i think your approach is so loving and has the potential to make a JW think a little moreso than other approaches. I was a JW for 46 years before leaving. Im now Agnostic, but im a firm believer that everyone needs to find what works for them personally. And if you do believe in the Bible, you are obviously teaching it correctly. You have gone through much schooling to understand it well. After i left the organization, i read 3 different versions of real Bibles, looking to draw close to Jesus because i realized the Bible taught the Trinity as Truth. But as i studied, i had a difficult time with the misogyny, slavery and homophobia. Just my point of view and i don't ask anyone to have my view. Its just mine. Thank you for your kindness, there are many lovely misguided ppl in the JW organization and many may want to understand and believe in the Bible, so you are doing a nice thing. Others, like myself and my family have come to another conclusion, but i love to think we can all be kind, loving and respectful of each others choices. Good Luck to you! (Im allowed to say that now, lol, as a JW you aren't allowed to say good luck, you can only say best wishes. There are so many insane 'rules' that have no biblical backing.) 🤷♀️ Have a wonderful day and the best to you and your family! 💗
@JustDeannaJune There are no misguided Jehovah's Witnesses in the faith. Just those like you whom Jehovah prevented from getting into the faith or booted out of the faith! Simple clear deduction!
@@daroweilburg7706 A few weeks ago, I had a conversation on this subject with relatives who are members of the Watchtower Society.
After careful examination of the scripture in question, Jehovah's Witnesses agreed with me that the term "hama", which Paul deliberately and not accidentally chose in these passages in his letter, is to be understood in the sense of "simultaneous".
Consequently, the act or procedure of "being caught away in clouds" will take place at a specific point in time and not over a longer period of time.
Following the discussion, I confronted these people with the following question and asked them in this context to carry out an independent text analysis and inform me about the result a few days later.
Although more than 4 weeks have passed since this conversation, I have not yet received a response from any of these participants.
Questions
=========
If all Christians who have already died since 1918 have been resurrected immediately after their death, then the question inevitably arises, where on this earth have these Christians who have been resurrected to this day found their temporary home until one day they will experience the act of rapture to heaven together with the survivors?
How is it to be explained that Paul emphasizes that the occurrence of the event of parousia will bring about an intimate communion of life with Jesus for all Christians, when it is taught that Jesus will supposedly remain forever invisible to the majority of Christians?
1 Thessalonians 4,15-18 ( N W T Study Edition)
15 For this is what w e t e l l y o u b y J e h o v a h ’s w o r d , that we the living who survive
t o t h e p r e s e n c e (note: "P a r o u s i a ") o f t h e L o r d
will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;
16 because t h e L o r d h i m s e l f w i l l d e s c e n d f r o m h e a v e n
with a commanding call, with an archangel’ voice and with God’s trumpet, and
t h o s e w h o a r e d e a d i n u n i o n w i t h C h r i s t wi l l r i s e f i r s t
17 Afterward w e t h e l i v i n g w h o a r e s u r v i v i n g
=====================================
w i l l , t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a " ) w i t h t h e m , b e c a u g h t a w a y i n c l o u d s
================================================================================
t o m e e t t h e L o r d i n t h e a i r ;
=================================
a n d t h u s w e w i l l a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e L o r d.
===================================================
18 So keep c o m f o r t i n g o n e a n o t h e r w i t h t h e s e w o r d s.
1 Thessalonians 5,9-10 ( N W T Study Edition)
9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us, so that w h e t h e r w e s t a y a w a k e o r a r e a s l e e p ,
w e s h o u l d l i v e t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a ") w i t h h i m .
==============================================================
@@MR-gx3gc You are stuck on stupid and we cannot fix stupid! The word parousia means 'PRESENCE" not physically. We will see what Jesus does. We will not see him physically. Stop visiting the apostates. You are embarrassing yourself by spreading lies and misconceptions. Jesus will rule the earth from heaven...he will NOT be physically on this earth. He has been there and done that already! No need to return.
@@daroweilburg7706 I presented to you the message of the Apostle Paul in his first letter to the Thessalonians, based on your preferred version of the Bible.
How can you dismiss the unequivocal statements of the apostle Paul as stupid?
In this written message, the apostle Paul predicted that at the parousia of Christ, all Christians would experience at the same time the procedure of "being caught away in clouds".
Any average intelligent reader will easily grasp the true meaning of this message.
Questions to the Bible scholar
=========================
1.) At what point in his letter did Paul declare that the majority of Christ's followers would not participate in the procedure of "being caught away in clouds"?
2.) Did Paul foretell in his following message that Jesus would be visible to all his followers once the parousia would run its course, or that he would remain invisible to the majority of Christ's followers for all eternity?
1 Thessalonians 4,15-18 ( N W T Study Edition)
15 For this is what w e t e l l y o u b y J e h o v a h ’s w o r d , that we the living who survive
t o t h e p r e s e n c e (note: "P a r o u s i a ") o f t h e L o r d
======================================================
will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;
16 because t h e L o r d h i m s e l f w i l l d e s c e n d f r o m h e a v e n
with a commanding call, with an archangel’ voice and with God’s trumpet, and
t h o s e w h o a r e d e a d i n u n i o n w i t h C h r i s t wi l l r i s e f i r s t
17 Afterward w e t h e l i v i n g w h o a r e s u r v i v i n g
=====================================
w i l l , t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a " ) w i t h t h e m , b e c a u g h t a w a y i n c l o u d s
================================================================================
t o m e e t t h e L o r d i n t h e a i r ;
=================================
a n d t h u s w e w i l l a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e L o r d.
===================================================
18 So keep c o m f o r t i n g o n e a n o t h e r w i t h t h e s e w o r d s.
1 Thessalonians 5,9-10 ( N W T Study Edition)
9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us, so that w h e t h e r w e s t a y a w a k e o r a r e a s l e e p ,
w e s h o u l d l i v e t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a ") w i t h h i m .
==============================================================
@@daroweilburg7706 In the spirit of careful exegesis, we will once again turn together to the relevant scripture on the basis of your preferred version of the Bible.
As you can see, Paul obviously deliberately and not accidentally chose the same Greek word "hama" in each of the following passages.
Question to the Bible scholar
=========================
What is the true meaning of this particular word in Greek usage, according to the explanation of scholars?
1 Thessalonians 4,15-18 ( N W T Study Edition)
15 For this is what w e t e l l y o u b y J e h o v a h ’s w o r d , that we the living who survive
t o t h e p r e s e n c e (note: "P a r o u s i a ") o f t h e L o r d
======================================================
will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;
16 because t h e L o r d h i m s e l f w i l l d e s c e n d f r o m h e a v e n
with a commanding call, with an archangel’ voice and with God’s trumpet, and
t h o s e w h o a r e d e a d i n u n i o n w i t h C h r i s t wi l l r i s e f i r s t
17 Afterward w e t h e l i v i n g w h o a r e s u r v i v i n g
=====================================
w i l l , t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a " ) w i t h t h e m , b e c a u g h t a w a y i n c l o u d s
================================================================================
t o m e e t t h e L o r d i n t h e a i r ;
=================================
a n d t h u s w e w i l l a l w a y s b e w i t h t h e L o r d.
===================================================
18 So keep c o m f o r t i n g o n e a n o t h e r w i t h t h e s e w o r d s.
1 Thessalonians 5,9-10 ( N W T Study Edition)
9 because God assigned us, not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
10 He died for us, so that w h e t h e r w e s t a y a w a k e o r a r e a s l e e p ,
w e s h o u l d l i v e t o g e t h e r (note: greek: " h a m a ") w i t h h i m .
==============================================================
This all just sounds like a bunch of comic book nerds fighting over whether Batman or Spiderman is stronger.
It was somewhat interesting. But your rant at the end about original sin reminded me again why not only can I not be a Jehovah's Witness, I can also not in good conscious be a Christian.
The idea of original God sending himself to Earth to sacrifice himself just to satisfy some rules he made up entirely himself really shows how deeply immoral it is when you think about it for more than two seconds. I cannot in good conscious worship a hateful being who tries to gaslight humanity into believing that this is love.
I take great issue with this comment... everyone knows Spiderman is stronger.
I like the NWT
Im a JDub, and I love watching other JDubs just get smoked in their arguments, and their lack of being able to have a healthy dialogue. It’s too bad they default to circular arguments. And…..
Id let you pray with me.
Why are you still a JW?
@@michellebernal5668 He.she is not a JW! This one is an apostate...!
@@daroweilburg7706
LOL just like you Daro, using two accounts to talk to people like your Father you are a deceiver.
As with any group the 80/20 rule applies. This means that well meaning, loving well intended people whom God will use to plant seeds are not ALWaYS going to be well spoken , well educated, or more articulate than you. You may be smarter, a better debater, than 80 percent or more of the Jehovah’s Witness you meet at your door. But they were caring enough to come to YOUR door. They are caring enough to learn second languages. Caring enough to talk to people in tenements, mansions, and in the street. Brave enough to go to rural areas no other church group bothers with and to gang members houses.
So with all your education. What are you doing with it besides CZcams ? Or rather for the reader in the comments, the people who come to your door aren’t payed and go out of pocket to speak to you as a human being, what are you doing for total strangers that remotely compares.
Jehovah uses the willing to accomplish His will.
2 Timothy 2:14, 23. Even a very well educated Witness will heed the scriptures when faced with an argumentative or debate oriented person.
I been doing “Bible study” with jw’s years now. I’m making it plainly clear that I’m not going to convert. Lately been covering in their teachings things that I really don’t agree with. What happens when we die? In their teachings we just go asleep and are selectively resurrected after the last days. I strongly disagree with that and think that’s absolutely absurd. I believe your souls are resurrected immediately and showed almost 20 scriptures that support that. Your right they twist, stretch and combine scriptures to their narrative and interpretation of the Bible, then tell me I’m going against Gods word. I just wondering how much longer it takes before they realize their wasting their time.
You don't have soul because you're a soul
@@tun2w It’s like a vehicle. The vehicle being your body and the soul being you inside the vehicle behind the wheel driving the vehicle.
@@zachharwood
Death is not the separation of someone's body with his soul. Someone does not have a soul because he/she is a soul. I don’t have a soul because i’m a soul..
You believe each of us has 2 kinds of parts. That is body and soul. But that’s not what bible says.
Soul is not something invisible in yourself, and leave you when you have died. Soul it just mean life.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV) : “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul".
Scripture says when God created the first man, Adam, the Bible says that “man became a living soul". Adam was not given a soul-he became a living soul, or person. Both animals and humans are souls.
Bible says when someone die they become ashes and dust, not invisible spirit, waiting for the ressurection. And their prospect is to be ressurected in paradise on earth, not in heaven. Because Jesus says no one has ascended to heaven yet.
@@tun2wthen explain Matthew 10:28. There is a CLEAR distinction made between body and soul. And yes, it says as much in the NWT.
@@pearlytiger564
There is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
Ecclesiastes 3.19,20 : "All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.”
“He returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish” psalm 146.4.
Bible says when someone die they conscious of nothing at all. It wouldn't happen if someone still alive in different body after he/she die.
Men cannot destroy our future life prospects, only God can.
Also if we had an immortal soul that lives on after death, then Jesus didn't need to perform resurrections in the future.
You can still reach a JW by using their own Bible and their Interlinear. You can still find the divinity of Christ, among so many other things, with their NWT in addition to passages that refute their anti-Christ doctrines if you know where to look. There are many.
Do you have an example to share?
@@jahtruthdefender lord have mercy I have to type that all again. Stupid thing isn't posting my replies the first time for some reason. I should have copied and pasted just in case.
Using the NWT, see 1 Corinthians 1: 15-18 where they added the word "other" four times. If you check their Interlinear, you will see that "other" is not there. Then ask the JW what would this passage mean if "other" was not there. They may throw the "firstborn" argument at you with regard to verse 15. Nonsense to think that it means first created. David was firstborn. He was the youngest of his many siblings. Israel was labeled firstborn but obviously not the first created nation. And then if you see verse 18, it states that he is the firstborn of the dead. The JWs forget that Jesus was not the first to be resurrected from death, Lazarus was so if they are going to take the word "firstborn" literally in verse 15 you would have to do the same thing for verse 18, which means Lazarus is the firstborn of the dead, which is not what that passage is saying. Firstborn in the Bible does not always mean first created. It's ranking for who will inherit. They fail to see things in context when they read the Bible. Technically their Bible isn't a Bible. It's called the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." It doesn't even say it's a Bible. An interesting tid bit that someone else on another channel brought up and thought I would share.
@@pearlytiger564
"Then ask the JW what would this passage mean if "other" was not there."
The word "Firstborn" (prototokos) in Koine Greek always means (surprisingly) the first born. An attempt to change the meaning of this word is pure sophistry. "Firstborn" contains information that this person has some privileges, but "Firstborn" has privileges BECAUSE he is "the first". Secondly, if someone is "Firstborn" it must mean that this person belongs to some group. He is the first of this group. So whether or not Colosan has the word "other" doesn't matter, because "Firstborn" means the first of a group of creatures.
Look at this: Revelation 3:14
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"
Jesus is the beginning of God's creation
"David was firstborn"
Simply not true
" Israel was labeled firstborn but obviously not the first created nation."
Israel is called the first born son because God himself created Israel. How this happened is told
in the book of Genesis and Exodus. Do you know any other nation that God personally created?
"The JWs forget that Jesus was not the first to be resurrected from death, Lazarus was so...."
Do you know the difference between the resurrection of Jesus and Lazarus? Jesus lives and Lazas died and awaits his resurrection. Jesus is "firstborn from the dead" from another group, this group:
Revelation 20:6
"“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”"
" Technically their Bible isn't a Bible. It's called the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures." It doesn't even say it's a Bible."
Is this some kind of joke? The word bible comes from the Greek word "biblion" which simply means books. The Old and New Testaments were originally written on papyri. Later, Holy Scriptures began to be written down in the form of "biblions". And this is how the Holy Scriptures came to be called the Bible.
An interlinear does not factor in context, syntax, nor grammar in their renderings. It’s really an apples to oranges comparison.
@@RiskeFactor you can read it and see what it’s saying. It’s not rocket science. It’s easy to see context when you have a basic understanding of grammar and syntax.
GOD uses SINGULAR PROSOPO for himself and that Greek word means FACE OR PERSON. it is NOT PLURAL PROSOPO. So GOD is SINGULAR PERSON and NOT THREE PERSONS. You don't use I AM, ME AND MYSELF for THREE LITERAL PERSONS
loooooooooooooooooooooool
From a person in an org that doesnt have one scholar....
Lol - you see whats happening Daro?> You see it...
Watchtower is dead mate...
You got reinstated yet?
who said this...
"You must reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
@@HenriettaMRiley you are still hallucinating I see. time to take your meds
@@Mr.DC3.1914
Oh i stopped taking the koolaid some time ago culty.
Claiming the earth isnt flat without first looking in that theory is like claiming the bible is full of rubbish without first reading it.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1Corinthians 15:15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised.
1Peter1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
So what is your point with the scripture salad with no commentary attached to it?
Is it simply to tell us that God raised Christ?
You it’s johovah witness. Me it jehovah witness and Muslim
WHO IS OVER ALL? Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. GOD and FATHER is OVER/ABOVE ALL and that "All" includes the SON so they are NOT EQUAL
THE BIBLE teaches that Jesus was MADE As Lord and Christ and as Son (ACTS 2:36, Prov 8, HEB 1:5), CREATED/PRODUCED/INSTALLED (Prov 8) , COME INTO BEING/MADE (Mat 21:42 - egeneto) and GIVEN LIFE by the Father - John 5:26 and it uses TODAY (Heb 1:5), and uses future tenses and is a prophecy in Isa 9:6 (Isa 9:6, - WILL BE) . If you are called MADE AND CREATED AND GIVEN LIFE, and NEVER CALLED in the BIBLE as Creator or Maker , then you are A CREATION. ALL FROM THE BIBLE
From the Lord was this (this is referring to the chief cornerstone who is Jesus) , the word WAS is egeneto (made or came into being) - Matthew 21:42 and the exact Greek word used in John 1:3 - MADE, egeneto (came into being) - JESUS WAS MADE/CAME INTO BEING FROM THE FATHER , yes, Jesus was MADE/CREATED!, See also Acts 2:36, Heb 1:5, 1 john 5
Isa 9:6 the word Prince in the Prince of Peace means PATRON ANGEL also Leader. WHO IS the ONE LEADER that we have? Jesus. Now, that same exact Hebrew word was used for Daniel 12:1 which is used for Michael the Archangel. So are you saying there are MANY LEADERS now?
Jehovah's Witnesses have been thoroughly indoctrinated with the egotistical idea that JWs alone are true christians and JWs alone have the truth and everyone else believes falsehoods.
This causes JWs to have a prideful superiority complex.
This pride then blinds them from seeing how they're being deceived, or at the very least it causes them to live in a state of denial. You see its quite a painful blow to the ego to move from believing that you belong to the only true religion, to believing that your religion is false and misleading you. So they find any and every reason to deny the obvious fact that they're being taught falsehoods and being deceived. It reminds me of a quote attributed to Mark Twain:
"It's easier to fool someone than convince them that they have been fooled. Caribbean man…
Once a JW has been fooled by Watchtower its very difficult to convince them that they've been fooled, because Watchtower imbues them with that disgusting, self-righteous,
"we-alone-have-the-truth", pride.
Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus made everything that is in Heaven and on earth. That He made all of Creation...and that everything that was made has been made by Him. Thus it's impossible for Jesus to be a "created" being, otherwise those Scripture verses would be wrong.
Scripture also is clear that Jesus is not an angel.
@@spacecoastz4026 Isa 9:6 uses SAR which also means PATRON ANGEL, which is the same SAR used in Dan 12:1 and who will RAISE UP THE DEAD - Dan 12:1-2.
Because they lie in God and Jesus ' names
Not to mention.
Child rape etc.
False prophecy etc.and on and on.
.....because it is stupid....
You cannot be a Jehovah's Witness because Jehovah doesn't want you. Simple enough! LOL
I thought Jehovah's Witnesses would officially teach that Jehovah is the only true God who loves those who love the truth.
So, will Jesus reject people who publicly disclose the truth about the history of the Watchtower Society and its many doctrinal changes?
@@MR-gx3gc Lies and propaganda from Apostates...Nope!!!! You haven't any truth to your claims...why do you idiots keep trying to hold the Watchtower as a leader of some sort. The Watchtower is just the entity the government requires to accept donations so the government can keep track. Why do you then hold those 9 governing body members to be perfect? Did you not learn that the Apostles made MANY mistakes? Peter would not eat with the gentile Christians he denied Christ there times...It took the 1st Governing Body 13 years on the circumcision issue and, on at least two occasions they were thinking Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom in the first century. Wow huh! Research! And stop reaching out to the apostates or better, stop being an apostate!!!!!!
@@daroweilburg7706 to your comment: Lies and propaganda from Apostates...Nope!!!! You haven't any truth to your claims...why do you idiots keep trying to hold the Watchtower as a leader of some sort. The Watchtower is just the entity the government requires to accept donations so the government can keep track. Why do you then hold those 9 governing body members to be perfect?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
How can you presume to call your fellow men apostates, even though they are not guilty of false teachings and, above all, of false predictions in the name of God?
I strongly recommend that you practice humility and restraint.
Questions to the Bible scholar
=========================
1.) Are you even aware of how often the term "apostasy" or "apostate" appears in the New Testament and, above all, in connection with whom?
2.) Did God appoint a faithful slave or Governing Body in 1919?
Where in their writings did New Testament writers, such as Peter and Paul, refer to themselves as members of a Governing Body?
If all your teachings are based on the Bible, you will surely be able to cite a biblical source to justify this practice.
@@daroweilburg7706
Questions to the Bible scholar
=========================
1.) Are you even aware of how often the term "apostasy" or "apostate" appears in the New Testament and, above all, in connection with whom?
2.) Did God appoint a faithful slave or Governing Body in 1919?
Where in their writings did New Testament writers, such as Peter and Paul, refer to themselves as members of a Governing Body?
If all your teachings are based on the Bible, you will surely be able to cite a biblical source to justify this practice.
@@MR-gx3gc You being an apostate would warrant your keeping track of the times apostate appears. I will not banter scripture with you, I made that quite clear. You are still stuck on stupid and I still cannot fix stupid.
you are arguing from the premise that the Bible itself is inerrant
/ɪnˈɛr(ə)nt/ unfortunaly #~you dont know whats written in the first place ie the gospels is true in the first place its the basics
What do you mean by true?
The wisdom in Scripture is true. The teachings of Jesus have stood the test of time. The principles and commandments from the old testament have stood the test of time. The wisdom of the Bible has proven to be true for ages.
No serious scholar will say that Jesus didn't live. We know that there was a being called Jesus of Nazareth that lived, taught, and was crucified by the Romans.
The crucifixion and resurrection is one of the most well attested facts in history. To the point where the only suggested explanations are that either Jesus really did live, or there was a localized mass hallucination.
We know that the writings of the apostles hasn't been changed, as we have more copies of the original work than any other historical text. The copies are dated closest to the original writing more than any other historical text.
The criteria for textual criticism is passed by the new and old testament that if anyone were to say they didn't believe them, then they'd have to deny Greek history, Roman history, the writings of Pythagoras, and much more. As the Bible far surpasses the illiad, the oddesy, the annals of tacitus, and so on.
You're free to say whatever you want, but when it comes to the question "how do you know it's true", it's answered for the Bible far more than any other historical text.
Now this just leaves to question the old testament stories of Genesis, Abraham, Moses, the flood etc.
We know the events of Exodus played out. So the account of Moses, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Saul, David, and up through the exile and return all historically happened.
That leaves the tower of Babel, The Great Flood, and the Garden of Eden up for debate. Did that stuff really happen? Was it parabolic?
I have my personal answer. But you can believe those 3 events are parabolic and still be a Trinitarian Christian.
@@bryceneuberger3460 God prays to himself, talks to himself, and even accused himself of forsaking himself on one occasion. Go Trinity...right to the trash! You are labeling God a paranoid schizophrenic.