Arcane: A Full Discussion-Ep. 50 of Intentionally Blank
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2022
- Brandon and Dan start the day’s discussion over a recent mid-air Cognac heist before moving on to their final discussion about season one of Arcane plus a quick discussion about the inherent morality of Grim Dark.
You can join the discussion and vote for your favorite podcast title at r/sanderson: / sanderson
Can be listened to almost everywhere podcasts can be found.
Produced by Adam Horne
Sound engineering and editing by Daniel Thompson - Zábava
Adam here: I made a bit of a blunder when I uploaded this episodes footage and duplicated a different episode. So I present to you tarsier Brandon.
Tarsier Brandon is awesome.
Could’ve made it an asteroid lol
Interesting choice. Not complaining, just interesting. Though, the thumbnail of the video should also feature tarsier-Branson (Bransier? Tarserson?).
A freeze frame of B-Money would've been my choice, but this works too.
@Sebok yeah... I'm the one who killed him and took the death rattle.... well i think he said this before i killed him... anyway
Heimerdinger was right though: -Hextech got weaponized.
-Vi stole the boxing gloves.
-Jinx made a bazooka
He warned them and now the council died
and its going to be soooo much worse. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
tbf it only got weaponized because Heimerdinger basically ignored the more modern problems which lead to things getting to this state in the first place. so while he was right that Hextech could easily fall into the wrong hands, he’s basically the biggest reason those wrong hands exist (at least the ones you’re referring to). But thanks to Jayce, Piltover has Hextech too. Without it the Undercity would be able to ravage them all with shimmer
@@ultraviolet119 even with shimmer the undercity doesn't stand a chance. In episode 3 vander said it and Silco agreed. But shimmer was still enough to atleast scare topside enough for the undercity to earn respect. And Heimerdinger neglecting modern problems is actually good story telling. Heimer showed visions that he lived through the runic wars (basically nuclear apocalypse). In his eyes the problems with the undercity are trivial and will be fixed in a few decades or centuries. Heimer is a perfect example of a character that lost his connection with humanity and time. Heimer while still good became someone that values logic over emotions. Because to him, whats a few more years/decades of the undercity being like that when if after a few decades hextech is safe guarded and the city will prosper for centuries. Heimer doesn't mourn the loss of people outside of his close friends anymore due to probably how many died in the runic wars and during his lifetime.
@@ardel-4964 oh I’m aware that his character is great, I’m just explaining why I don’t believe he was actually right in the end. And I’m not convinced the Undercity doesn’t stand a chance with Shimmer… I mean we saw what it was able to do to just plain enforcers. It’s the Hextech that actually gives them an edge
@@ultraviolet119 0:41 of this video czcams.com/video/ApQfkwK4DIs/video.html
Topside is considerably still more powerful during this time even with shimmer. Since the amount of enforcers are never specified and we can see quite a lot of them rushing in after the explosion at the bridge. Topside always has the advantage since they will block off the bridge and just gun down anyone that tries to cross it. Even if they are shimmered up they won't be able to handle getting riddled with bullets while trying to cross the bridge.
Like yeah Silco is right, topside is gonna be too scared to step foot in the undercity. But topside will remain safe across the bridge.
Topside will never lose. But they won't win without hextech. Topside won't get invaded because of bridge but topside can't invade the undercity without hextech.
"We were so focused on doing something great, that we failed to do good." killer line
"We lost ourselves, lost our dream. In the pursuit of Greatness, we failed to do Good. We need to make it right."
@@Hawkido there it is lol. I knew my memory was not right.
@@Hawkido great*, not greatness.
@@AppleBaron dang, I was trying to quote that from memory, but I knew that it would be less effort to just wing it than look it up, and of course someone would correct me! thanks BTW. :)
there are so many killer lines in this, like for example every other sentence out of silco´s mouth
To add some more context to Heimerdinger, in the game lore there was a historical event called the Rune Wars where magic progressed too far and super-powerful mages carved huge swaths of destruction and almost destroyed the world in their wars for power. This shapes a lot of the political history of the current world, but it's been many centuries since so people are starting to forget. Heimerdinger references living through these events, although it was only vaguely told through his perspective and we aren't really shown anything, so the show kinda nudges us towards siding with Jayce/Viktor.
It's like if you lived through a nuclear apocalypse and centuries later you're somehow still alive and people started re-discovering nuclear tech. Of course the energy benefits would be massively helpful to society, but if you've lived through the worst consequences of that tech you'll probably be traumatized and fearful of going down that road again. We're already seeing some of the negative effects of magic, with the scale of destruction going up as the series goes on, and I expect we'll see more in later seasons, too.
Great comment. I was thinking exactly the same example, and I think it's on purpose stated by the showrunners. I wouldn't compare hextech with the electricity, I would compare it with the nuclear energy and the ways the world can use it.
Yeah seems like they really got it wrong about him. If this were the only season planned and it were a complete story, I could see what they're saying, but I think it's clearly setting up more horrible misuses of the hextech technology down the line.
And the people on the podcast are saying that the show proved Heimerdinger wrong, yet the whole show ends up with Hextech being used to bomb the city, actually proving that it's a dangerous weapon.
@@fus3rcillo You are 100% right. In Arcane Chemtech can be compared to electricity. Hextech is some kind of nuclear weapon, but the real nuclear weapon would be World Runes (that's what Heimerdinger saw in the past).
Mel’s “180 narrative turn” was a result of her mothers arrival. She realized that she was becoming more like her mother and less like what she sees herself as. We see this when she begins to advocate for peace and covers the painting of her families Noxus flieght in GOLD strokes.
Mel is not just Noxian like her mother, she’s also a Medarda like her father. Many believe that she is a Solari (worshippers of the Sun) seen by her golden markings across her body. Meaning there’s a chance she has the ability to harness magic and could protect the city council from Jinx’s rocket. In the ending, her regalia shimmered and she turned around to face Jinx’s rocket before anyone else noticed.
I don't even think it was a 180, she didn't change when her mother arrived, she just got more emotional. The viewer is tricked into assuming Mel conforms to the femme fatale trope, that she's a ruthless uncaring manipulator. However, she really isn't, and it isn't until act 3 until we realize we've misjudged her. Her mom explicitly points out, for instance, that she really does care for Jayce, but astute viewers would have noticed several episodes prior that she clearly enjoyed her night with Jayce in episode 5 and she was upset when he left her in the middle of the night. That doesn't fit with the political manipulation angle.
All throughout the series, Mel is being a fox. Diplomacy and political maneuvering is her bread and butter. She plays the political game to empower herself and the city, all to _avoid_ war. To avoid needing to be a "wolf" as her mother puts it. We assume at first that Mel has sinister or selfish ulterior motives for everything she does, because she's a crafty politician so of course she does, but the big twist is that she doesn't. She has genuine good intentions behind all the politicking.
@@michaelhenry3234 it was closer to 180, she legit goes from "we need to weaponize to be ready to protect ourselves" to "you don't know war, that's the last resort" and it's 100% bc of her mother arrival. And it was done beautifully.
@@KaterynaM_UA Those aren't mutually exclusive things. I think she would still push to weaponize hex tech while at the same time insisting on avoiding war in favor of a diplomatic solution. When she suggested developing weapons, she said hopefully they'd never have to use them, and I believe she was serious. Projecting strength can be a means of avoiding conflict, and she does not want to be caught unawares if it does come to conflict. Her problem with her mother's plan isn't that weapons are involved, it's that a war must be engineered as a means to create those weapons.
at the end of the season, when the rocket almost hits the council, you can see her golden shield light up. it even went as far as shining through the dress that Mel had on. The funny thing is, the rocket doesn't have any light on it, and certainly not strong enough to make the thing glow so strongly. I think it's the animators way of showing us that this plays an important role here and that we should pay attention to it, so definitely there is something going on with that! :)
Mel did turn pretty abruptly. If her memory of her mother immediately made her regain her kind heart, then she must have been fully aware how fucked up her actions up to that point were. For most people that isnt the case. Arcanes plotlines are really tight, but while that works for the characters and relationships of the A-Plot, the Piltover storyline massively suffers from it and all these characters could easily use another episode or two. Also, shes a half noxian Medarda. Her being a Solari is impossible from what we know about this world.
Arcane is great, but its not perfect. There are legitimate things to criticize and I hope that the writers learn from it. They wrote Silco, Vander, Vi and Jinx really fucking great, so it seems like they are really good at writing family drama. Focus more on the drama between Jinx/Vi and maybe even the drama between Vi/Cait (the show depicts trauma too well to not dive into Caitlyn seeing Vis sister murder her mother after Vi begged for her life). Focus less on politics because thats clearly not their strong suit.
He said it: Arcane is a masterpiece. It has the Sanderson's seal of approval.
It didn't needed in first place. But it's cool.
@@igoutta No, it needed it.
It is noteworthy that this was their first attempt in any film series
¯ \ _ (ツ) _ / ¯¯ \ _ (ツ) _ / ¯
@@Sam-vk8xd No it didn't. I love the man but my appreciation for the show isn't premised on his opinion of it
@@chrishaven1489 It’s not.
Also Sevika, Silco’s lieutenant, was the person who betrayed Vander in the first three episodes. She organized all of the men to help Silco.
She protected silco from Jinx's explosion at the warehouse, loosing the arm in the process.
Could explain her dislike towards jinx.
I kinda completely forgot about that lil detail...
@@przemekcichy5654 but did she lose her arm?
@@fullmetalb5241 Just brain fart 😁
Sevika felt Vander betrayed her generation (those that survived the Bridge Assault). It seems she had already talked with Silco, who had already met with Marcus, who revealed that his (Marcus's) boss (Grayson) had a deal with Vander, that is why Marcus felt justified to go behind his boss's back to raid Vander's bar to find the kids (because his boss was corrupt). Sevika then confronts Vander with the others of her generation to see if Vander really was soft on Piltover (Hint: He was, and at everyone's detriment BUT his). Vander failed her test, and Silco's information earned her loyalty. Vander DID betray the Undercity and Silco. He didn't meet with Silco to discuss exploring a different tactic against Piltover, he met with Silco to Murder him thus ending any chance of the Undercity being free, thus earning Vander his little slice of heaven in the Hell of the Underworld. With all of that Silco STILL wanted Vander to rejoin the fight for freedom, and with every refusal, Silco raised the stakes. Powder however made the cost of trying to get Vander back in the fight too great, that is when Silco gave the order to kill them. Sevika never took any action other than free choice against Vander or his family.
Regarding powder knowing right from wrong pre-trauma: she was creating nail bombs to kill rival criminal gang members and enforcers. She was a little kid, sure, but her morality seems to be "violence to defend family" throughout the show, whether her family is Vander or Silco or Vi
in fairness, that was the morality presented to her! I think she had noticed the rest of her family protected each other through violence, but she was too small to fight the way they did, which made her feel worthless. though don't believe it was Vander's intention to encourage that mindset (merely a consequence of their circumstances and her insecurity), whereas Silco actively praised her for her violence.
@@EmptyFeet Right, that's what I'm saying: going mad didn't turn her violent, she'd been raised in violence, then went mad. Then she just got better at the violence.
@@jonahheuer4812 oh, my bad! gotcha gotcha
this! They had to watch it at least twice before talking, otherwise the totally wrong readings were hard to listen.
It's satisfying to have Brandon agree with my opinion of Arcane. Arcane is a masterpiece.
the funny thing is that jinx didn't QUITE know right from wrong, even from the start. like, at the end of episode 3, it honestly seemed to me like she was more bothered by the fact that Vi had left her than the fact that the rest of their pseudo-family was dead. her "moral center" is essentially the approval of whoever she deems most important to her. that's why she didn't care so much about murder later on; because silco didn't, and he actively encouraged her to be "herself," as destructive and chaotic as that could be (which did bite him in the behind later, because then she became so cavalier about murder as a means to an end that she didn't care about how it could affect their goals, i.e. killing a bunch of police officers right inside piltover).
I'd never thought of that interpretation. It really bugged me while watching parts 2&3 that Jinx was just fine with Silco murdering her surrogate brothers and father. It felt like something that really should have been addressed more. Like did she not know? Seemed like she got a pretty clear look at the situation inside Silco's warehouse before she blew it up, yet she was more distraught over Vi calling her a mean name than she was over Vander and the others, and she immediately accepted her family's murderer as her new father figure without question.
The idea that she was ALWAYS lacking empathy, and was simply in need of any emotional/social anchor kinda fixes that though. I'm interested to give the show another watch with that idea in mind.
@@kingjelly52 We're talking about a kid who, when other kids are 'just' punching each other, makes nail bombs instead. I think she was a few steps toward ruthless from the start.
@@kingjelly52 a few youtubers have covered it already (I think schnee is one of them, check out his jinx video) but yeah, powder/jinx is really coded as having some kind of attachment disorder.
the fact that she broke down so much over being told to stay back, and then when she’s confronted for causing an accident that KILLED THEIR FAMILY she bursts out, “why did you leave me?!” pretty much sells it. especially since she just glomps, aka literally attaches herself to the first person that shows up after her emotional anchor has left her. she needed a new anchor to attach to, basically.
very well said, the role Silco's influence on her during her late childhood is so important
@@ttwings yeah, all that has something to do with the fact that her actual family was murdered when she was very young and she had to deal with that. So by the end of the show she became Golum. I'm pretty sure Smeagol and Powder have the same disorder.
5:42 is the start of the Arcane discussion in case you're not into MEAL STEALINGS.
Thanks.
ty
Thanks god!
Thank you!
@@ChristopherCopeland Haha yeah... But hey, honestly, it's their show, and it's not like they need the audience.
I think Heimerdinger's arc was that he was a casualty of his own immortality, that after hundreds of years of being alive, he's lost perspective on the human plight - which I think is shown when he first enters the under city and is appalled by what has been going on right under his nose for essentially decades. I think his arc is completed in his final scene with Ecko, where's stunned by the progress his people have made in so short a time, a direct contrast to his earlier beliefs when Jayce and Victor were first demonstrating the laser and gauntlet, where he thought a decade of research an insubstantial amount of time. I think this show was more focused on giving the main characters complete characters with satisfying ends, whilst most of the side character (like Heimer) were more kind of teased for a future payoff. I have to assumed Heimerdinger, Sevika, and Singed are all gonna play a major role in season 2.
Dont forget the ravens/crows.
They saw everything, and as a League fan, that means Demon Raum, and because... Noxus was introduced with Mel's Mother.
That also means one of Noxus's most important figuers and leaders, Swain, and these two are connected, the Demon of Secrets, and the The great general, who has said Demon inside of him under control.
This is also proven in the game because Swain without being in all of these, because of the Demon of Secrets, and its connections to Ravens/Crows, he has a line when Jinx is in the game.
"Faces...Fading in the Flames....
It was all Her Fault..."
I feel like they don't realize Sevika was the one who betrayed Vander in Act 1. In doing so, she ultimately helped cause Vander's death and Jinx's downfall. This is why Vi wants to take her out so bad.
Sevika doesn't betray Vander, because she isn't loyal to him. She is loyal to the cause (Independent Zaun), and when he abandons that cause, she tells him to his face that she's not ok with this, and walks away. That's not a betrayal, that's having a difference in opinion.
To be fair, in other shows, the side characters wouldn't be elaborate enough for this kind of distinction, but in Sevika's case, it comes up again in Act 3, when Finn tries to talk her into betraying Silco.
@@Jarecian Episode 5, right before Sevika unveils the robo-shimmer arm, Vi says, "You filthy traitor." to Sevika. Whether Sevika had a prior loyalty or not, Vi sees her as a traitor to Vander.
@@hall1739 Yes, but that's Vi's opinion. And Vi is a person who doesn't care about causes. She cares about the people close to her. So it's natural she'd feel that way, especially about a perceived injustice against her late step father.
That doesn't mean she's correct, though. Not that I don't sympathize with her position.
Sevika doesn't blindly follow people. Not Vander, and not Silco, either. She tells him multiple times that relying on an increasingly unstable Jinx leads to ruin. And she's fully prepared to kill him when she walks into that room with Finn. But instead, Silco convinces her by reminding her where they started from. And so she kills Finn instead. And also remind Silco that she is ready to kill him, but "Not for a worm like him [Finn]."
Again, I don't agree with her idea of loyalty, but it's rather well developed what her views on things are.
@@Jarecian lol I feel like we're debating two different points here. My original comment was just on Vi's motivation for going after Sevika. I wasn't really worrying about Sevika's official or unofficial alliances.
@@Jarecian As I understand it, she was one of Vander's people. She was part of his group. She led a sizeable portion of Vander's men who were dissatisfied with his leadership to defect to Silco. Those men then took part in trying to murder Vander and his kids, as she watched from Silco's side.
I think Vi is justified in calling her a traitor. No one is gonna say "Well, actually, the person who used to be my ally but then tried to murder me isn't actually a traitor, she just ideologically disagreed with me."
The big thing with the lieutenant is that she was on Vander's side but betrayed him to Silco at the end of act 1. That's why Vi has a meaningful conflict with her, she is the one who betrayed and inevitably led to her father' figure's death.
Yep wanted to write it too
I agree with this to a certain extent. She did betray Vander and help Silco come to power, but I'm not certain it was her intention to get Vander killed. That I believe is Silco's choice after he is alerted by Marcus that Vander is going to go turn himself in, nearly alone, to the enforcers. Marcus screams at Silco after Vander and the old enforcer captain lady are killed that, "this wasn't the deal!" meaning that Marcus betrayed the information about the meeting and Silco took advantage. Small point, but I don't think Sevika can be credited with Vander's death.
@@HeatSync she definitely wasn't solely responsible. Also, you have to understand that Vi did not know about Marcus's betrayal but she did recognize Sevica's so in her mind, she bore a lot of the responsibility.
Vander*
I think the problem they had was that Sevika wasn't associated heavily enough with Vander's death. If she had the Shimmer mutant role that the blonde haired kid had in episode 3 then Vi's resentment would make a lot more sense, with the way the show is now her role in Vander's death is very hands off where she just kind of brings a bunch of henchmen to the warehouse and then takes a hit for Silco without personally getting involved
I’m disappointed that Mr. Brandon is not a walrus, but we will persevere.
Being from Utah I'd pictured him more of a yellow-bellied marmot
“Heimerdinger was wrong”
*Story proceeds to launch a gemstone-powered missile into the council chambers where he was giving his warning on gemstone power in the wrong hands*
“He was proven wrong at every point!”
He was wrong for ignoring the problems of the Undercity which prevented Jinx from getting a therapist.
IDK Heimerdinger was a bad ruler... it's like Brandon said, under Heimerdinger goverment things where going downhill already. That gemstone was stolen because of the bad conditions of the underground city. You can't stop science and progress. He wanted everything to remain the same and do nothing about it.
In the end everyone was wrong lol
@@fakub2026 There's no question that Heimerdinger was way too accepting of the status quo. He realizes as much over the course of the show. That's not mutually exclusive with him having good reason to distrust hextech.
@@Meloncov It's like not trusting Nuclear Reactors because of Chernobyl... our world changed a lot since that accident. Heimerdinger doesn't make good arguments about Hextech being dangerous... he just stares at you and says that isn't to be trusted.
What was he expecting? If you don't make any argument and just close scientific projects you are going to get fired. The Jinx situation is a consequence of illegal Hextech. That gemstones could never be taken away if they were safeguarded by the government.
IMO Heimerdinger only it's liked because of the videogame and because he is cute lol the character never makes sense why he is right and why we shouldn't use Hextech in a positive way.
@@Meloncov Heimerdinger extrapolated a generalization of an entire possible field of study from one bad, worst case experience. What Viktor made is dangerous but everything else they made has very useful applications to make the world a better place. Do you stop the development of planes because they can bring armies places?
Near the beginning of the series, Silco clearly states his thesis - "You see, power, real power doesn't come to those who were born strongest, or fastest, or smartest. No. It comes to those who will do anything to achieve it."
Silco passes this philosophy onto Powder-he instructs her, "Become what they fear, Jinx." In the end, when Silco knows first-hand how dangerous, unhinged, violent, unpredictable, brilliant, and terrifying she is, Slico declares Jinx "perfect."
All questions of Jinx's perception of right and wrong are put to rest in the last exchange she has with her sister, Vi. Jinx is not suffering from an episode during that exchange--Milo's ghost and scribbled monsters are missing when she picks up Fishbones to nuke Piltover's council. Jinx is calm, resigned, and sad. In the end, Jinx embraces her identity, fully aware of the irreversible damage she is about to inflict-starting a war with Piltover's topsiders.
Jinx has no one left to lose. Her transformation complete.
*strongest, not strangest.
But yeah, great comment.
@@ajiththomas2465 lol! Nice catch! /facepalm
YES!!! THATS WHY THE CHAIR WAS MARKED JINX. her taking the seat symbolises the full transformation of jinx
I would love to see a Brandon Sanderson novel animated in a similar style to Arcane. The show itself is visually stunning and I feel like an animated series can get around some of the limitations of a live action series. Could you all imagine Vin flying through the mists over Luthadel past the stain glass windows of the noble halls in this kind of style? It would be AMAZING
I super agree with you. Mistborn would be incredible if it was animated like Arcane.
Not just Mistborn. The Reckoners and Stormlight Archive would be dope too.
@@cmike123 Yes! I agree with you :)
Mistborn is coming
When they said Vi didn't really grow or change, I think that's mostly true. However, in the last episode she did learn to stop "blocking with her face." When the shield went up in the fight with Sevika, Vi was finally defending. I took that as she was starting to learn to stop blaming herself and hating herself for everything. I took that as she was starting to learn to stop punishing herself.
right. that and her relationship with caitlyn fueled her healing and also her realization of who her sister had become. she did grow subtly alongside caitlyn, but the fact that she’s ALWAYS been grown (pretty sad when you think about it) definitely dampens more apparent development.
Mel wants to protect the city and she does it by manipulating people. She wasn't manipulating Jayce because she was in love with him. She's a kingmaker. She puts people in power that she can control. This was explicitly revealed in her flashback when she brainstorms who should be sitting on the throne. She's a good person with good intentions, but she uses manipulation to achieve those good intentions. Personally, I find that interesting
Absolutely, she's a corrupting influence, hoarding tremendous wealth, but in her head it's an alternative to unspeakable violence and war... I find her really interesting. And although she doesn't DO much, she's always been a support and antagonist to Jayce, so I really don't see how the story treats her differently in the end as in the beginning.
Its actually a lot like breeze.
@@maximeteppe7627 I'd argue she does a lot. Without her, so many of the decisions and events in the show would have gone differently. The trial, the break-in, the peace decision... People present her with options, sure, but she's the one to make the decision and bring others along with her.
She is a well crafted, conflicted character. She's ambitious, she has something to prove to herself and her family, that is what is guiding her early manipulation of Jace. She also has a soft spot in her heart, she doesn't want to spill blood, that is what caused the rift between her and her mother and is her driving motivation in the later episodes. The fact that the show doesn't peddle in moralisms is one of its greatest strengths. It doesn't tell you what's right and wrong, that is for each individual viewer to decide.
I feel like you're both underplaying the fact that not only was Jinx dealing with immense trauma but that she was also molded by Silco while dealing with said trauma. This is a major reason why developed to be so violent and shows no remorse for most of her actions.
The Hero fight between Vi and Sevika: I think Sevika was meant to be portrayed as the person who betrayed Vander (sided with Silko) which allowed Silko to come into power.
Jinx didnt become violent because of her mentall ilness, she became violent because of the circumstances around her growing up. Since the very beginning of the show we see that she was surrounded by violence and death, even before she killed Vander and her friends she was already doing dangerous things like building nail bombs and after that she was raised by Silco the most violent and cruel person in the show. Jinx is a violent person that also has a mental ilness that makes her instable, a very a dangerous combination.
That was my take too 👍
Sevika is present during the scene where Vander dies. That's the scene where she loses her arm pushing Silco out of the way of the blast.
She also turned her back on Vander and Vin knew that. Reason for her hatred.
@@winglessrayven4294 Love that Vi autocorrects to Vin for you
She's also present in the bar with Vander and voices disappointment when he won't go to war with the enforces. Then she defects and takes some goons with her from the bar. She is then seen soon after with Silcos gang during the fight in the warehouse when the kids show up. She loses her arm defending silco from the blast. All together it makes her a good nemesis for Vi since she's abandoned Vander and helped bring Silco to power, which is Vi's big grief.
My only disagreement is the conversation about heimerdinger. I think the very important decision that he got RIGHT was them showing how he felt about the hexcore. When he first said the technology was dangerous it was just out of fear, but when he spoke about the hexcore it was an informed decision. And then the show shows us that the hexcore is actually evil. Vaporizing sky, possibly controlling victor for a moment, etc.
The narrative actually proves heimer dinger right.
Every single thing heimer said would happen if they didn't listen to him happened.
Heimer was right but he was complex because he couldn't understand others because of how long he lives and how he has no sense of time and death.
Yeah, it proves him correct but not right if that makes sense. He makes the decision for the better future outcome at the cost of everyone in the present.
he was scared of the jet engine because of what it could do for warfare, but neglected what it could do outside of warfare. he is right to be fearful, but wrong to assume that the cons always outweigh the pros
Yes, but this is the era right after the last world ending fighter jet got dismantled. He fears basically undoing the past efforts to ban flight in fear of that jet.
@@krog2371 Hextech is more nuclear reactor than jet engine considering how destructive it can get. So, I think he was mostly right advocating for careful R&D. The only thing he was adamant about stopping was the hexcore, which is a crazy thing to just experiment with without any safeguards.
Because of the massive reality-altering potential of magic, I think Heimer was the best person to oversee its R&D. It might not have developed quickly, but people would be safer.
His only problem was his being out of touch with his people and city. He spends way too much energy on the future that he neglects the present. Too big picture. His arc was that he needed to be grounded, and he got that.
This. It's Logic and Fact vs Emotions and Feelings. Everything he warned of, started happening, and will continue unfolding beyond the first season. He was right, he was correct. But because he didn't take into account people's emotions and feelings, he couldn't convince them and ultimately failed to prevent the coming disasters he warned of.
I agree with Dan on the mental health thing, I think Brandon's initial comments/thoughts are missing the full context that while Jinx may have mental health issues, she was also raised by a crime lord, who on multiple occasions has shown zero remorse for acts of cruelty. And don't get me wrong, I love Silco as a character, but he's not a good man and it doesn't surprise me that his surrogate daughter developed the morality (or lack thereof) that she did, I believe she would have turned out the same regardless of her mental stability.
I also agree with Dan on the shooting of Silco scene, though I won't reiterate that since Dan pretty much summed up my exact thoughts too.
Agreed. I also feel like another factor happens to be the culture of Zaun. A culture that can't seem to remove its violent aspect completely. We see it in its past, present, and even future. A culture of which not only raised her, but also Vi, who also happens to use violence as a means to solve her problems.
Of course, I dont attribute it all to their upbringing, but I just think its also a factor worth mentioning.
11:50 I feel like Echo is a example for "doing the right thing" being rewarded. He is like Powder in many ways ( same age, interested in tech, sees V as big sister ) but how he copes with his situation is inverted. What a lot of people overlook is that in the same night were Powder lost everybody so did Echo. He lost all of his friends and family that we know of and was completely alone. After that instead of giving up and falling in a hole , or fall in with silco or the next best crime lord, he did the right thing. He pulled himself up and build a flourishing community. Ofc his good deeds also bring him a lot of struggle , but so far his decision to not give up and build this community is not punished.
The thing about the Jayce/Mel relationship is tht it actually transitions from a pure buisness partner relationship to one of genuine feelings. At first we see Mel offer her support to Jayce as a guide to the new Political landscape he had gotten himself into, and the wierd thing about it is, she NEVER steered him wrong, all the stuff she told him was legitimatly how to work his "Competator's" in his favor because she knew them and how to do so. Manipulation comes often with results that favor the manipulator but her interactions with Jayce almost never resulted in any greater benefit for her, than creating a significantly more morally grounded and inteligent conworker than the others that she would just naturally have an in with. But like you talked about their relationship changed drastically after they sleep together. The change came when Victor has his accident, causing Jayce to leave befor she wakes up, which we see is to her displeasure, a mood of hers that changes, when Jayce immediatly comes back to her side and seeking consol for his revelation of Victor's condition. We see her attitude completely shift when she realizes that Jayce hadn't just one night standed her, but had a legitimate reason for leaving, but also chose to come to her befor anyone else for emotional support, from here we see her process Jayce's opening up to her with seemingly legitimate emotional and day to day support, markign what we can tell a shift in her perspective of him as a partner.
Excellently put. I recommend checking out the Arcane videos of a CZcamsr named Aleczandxr. His Jayce and Mel Medarda videos are fantastic and his Mel video lands on the same points you've laid out in your comment but goes a bit deeper and more detailed into it. I think you'll really like those videos.
@@ajiththomas2465 i watched those as he posted! amazing breakdowns!
@@chance1774
Yup! I've always loved Aleczandxr's video essays on anime, especially _HunterXHunter_ and _Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood_ , so when I heard that he watched and loved _Arcane_ , I knew we were going to get some good ass video essays from him. I really want to see a Viktor video from him in the future.
Shnee also makes a great video analyzing mel
i strongly suggest you guys give arcane a rewatch. a lot of your analysis comes from making quick assumptions. the show has a lot more nuance than that. when i rewatched arcane it really helped me understand everything on a deeper level
+
Mel had a subtle arc that I loved and I hope she survives.
The point around 9:30 about Jink's reaction. I believe this has nothing to do with mental health and everything to do with combat training. She has been taught to react to danger and react swiftly and efficiently to remove the threat. She sometimes toys with it (and that would be linked with the schizophrenia) but in this instant you can hear the trigger pulled by Silco, she reacts to the threat and fires, and then comes the realization of what she has reacted to. It was more about conditioning than mental health or neuro divergence as you put it.
That's the thing though: Heimerdinger was right. Immediately after Jace and Viktor develop the Hextech Crystals, Jinx steals them, leading to the deaths of several enforcers, and eventually, the rocket that comes crashing through the council chamber window. That rocket is Heimer's worst fear come to life. I think the problem is that they didn't do enough to show how Heimerdinger's thinking has done good for other characters, or how much that position means to Heimerdinger. We're supposed to infer from his overcautiousness that he takes his job as a regulator and guiding hand very seriously, but that connection is purely cerebral rather than emotional. So when they hit us with a very emotional moment, even if we can logically connect the dots (and even worse if we can't), we're unprepared to empathize with him on such a strong emotional level. That probably has to do with how his arc was about reconnecting with people on a personal level rather than an official level, so giving him too many emotional moments would have compromised his arc, and I genuinely can't think of a better way to frame that scene. Triumph doesn't really work, maybe give the scene a bit of menace to imply that this is a mistake on Jace's part? It's hard to say. Overall, I think it was just meant to play into the tragedy of a character trying to do good, i.e. protecting the city he loves from dangerous ambitions, being punished.
I actually felt deeply sorry for Heimerdinger when he was betrayed by his protigée Jayce and unwillingly sent into a "well-earned retirement". But you are correct that we aren't shown Heimerdinger's side of the story since he is truely only a side character in season 1. I personally think this was the correct choice because the season had enough on its plate as it was - but we definitely didn't get to see that part. My personal hope is that season 1 was merely a set-up for greater things to come for Heimerdinger, his "redemption arc" is at least strongly hinted at in the end when he collaborates with Ekko.
Self fullfilling prophecy. Heimer was blinded by his own trauma induced bias against magic and isolated by his own disconnection from the needs of those around him. Sure bad things could come from HexTech, but bad things can come from any advancement. Heimer had the astronomical luck of having this tech get developed by two morally decent people within his sphere of influence and presented him the chance to shepherd it. But he effectively threw it away. His paralyzing fear of magic lead him to dismiss Jayce and condemn Viktor, which lead to their respective desperation and the choices it had them make. Heimer effectively created his own Appointment in Sammarra.
He was also the leader of this city for its entire 200 year history. Meaning the corruption of its politics, the devolution of Undercity into a toxic slum and the evolution of its police force into a tool of violent class oppression all happened under his watch. Heimer’s S1 arc is that of a good man being forcibly shaken from a state of complacent apathy to realize he’s a failed leader.
Heimer's worst fear isn't that rocket through the council window. Arcane is 1% of league lore. It shows what people who have no magic in them can do with an unrefined rune. Put that rune in the hands of a mage and the level of destruction is incomparable.
@@ManHeIsAwesome I mean, yeah, I'm sure Heimer can think of destruction on a grander scale for sure, but that's not really what I meant. It was hyperbole, and pointed toward the idea more than the actual physical object. Heimer believes that knowledge needs to be created and used responsibly lest it fall into the wrong hands and eventually lead to catastrophe. No, Jinx's rocket isn't the absolute worst thing that could happen in the literal sense, but it's representative of the calamity it could lead to later on down the road. It's the direct product of good intentions leading to incalculable harm.
35:48 Sevika was present when Vander died.
She lost her arm in Powder's explosion.
Silco stopped her from facing Vander, so that Deckard (monster juice blond kid) went instead of her.
He stopped her because she was already too valuable to him to risk against Vander.
Edit, also, she was working with Vander before "abandoning him" for Silco because he was pushing for peace with Pilltover and de-escalation.
26:00 I think Hiemingdinger was shown to be right. Magic in the wrong hands is dangerous as seen with everything Jinx did. Killed Vander in episode 3 & blew up the council room in episode 9. We do see the benifits of hextech in the 5-ish year time skip but probably Hiemingdinger had a big part in regulating the advancement of the magic development
"No good deed goes unpunished."
This is great point considering even the fireflies' refuge. That haven could serve as a contradiction to Brandon's point since it all represents hope, but what if it gets ransacked in a later season? It would make sense to the story considering one of the themes of arcane, that progress is a pain staking path. No good deed going unpunished is compelling in so many ways. Powder's tragedy wouldn't be as big of a tragedy if wasn't for a good intention.
Oh yeah, i spent the whole series just waiting for that sanctuary to get destroyed. Tragically, i think it's inevitable
The firelights are straight up miniature grenades, that sanctuary is built around a dynamite shack
If y'all haven't seen them yet, CZcamsr Schnee has a GREAT series of analyses of scenes, episodes, and themes in Arcane. Totally worth diving into.
Brandon looking good as always,
But in all seriousness, it’s a good replacement choice.
Vi is a Static Character Arc. She remains largely, though not quite, the same but the important part is that she does so despite all the pressure to change.
"In the pursuit of great, we forgot to do good." is a phenomenal line.
But I like "Is there anything so undoing as a daughter?" even more.
What Mel wanted was to use Jayce and his new tech for more power in the council and the city.
She wanted to succeed in Piltover to show her mother that she wasn't a failure but over time she fell in love with Jayce.
At the end, she takes of the ring to signify that she had chosen Jayce over her mother.
also her morality. she chose her city and the kindness that was partially lost to her over her years alone in piltover over her mother and her mother’s ideals. her mothers return made her realize she didn’t want to be as vicious as her, as well as having a reminder of compassion within her genuine growing affections towards jayce.
A major key to Powder’s character is that she isn’t just a character with mental illness. Her illness in a vacuum doesn’t make her do “evil” things. What it does is make her more vulnerable to negative influences. If she could have grown up around positive influences like Vander, Ekko, Vi and Benzo she’d probably have been ok. Or as ok as she could be given her situation. But that didn’t happen.
Powder’s a character prone to co-dependency who was taken and emotionally abused and manipulated by a violent, brutal and callous crimelord. She know’s right from wrong. But she desperately needs validation and affection from the person she’s emotionally dependent on and Silco rewards her with both for doing violent, ruthless things for him. A truly depraved man took a tweenaged, ill trauma victim, gave her a gun a praised her for killing for him, fed her anger and paranoia with his own and didn’t hesitate to gaslight her to influence her choices.
Powder by the end has done monstrous things. Her hands are coated in blood. But Arcane never lets you forget that she was also a victim too.
While I disagree with the take of Vi and Sevika's fight feeling unsatisfying, I realised that all their fights and scenes work better from Sevika's point of view. After all, to Sevika, Vi represents what Vander wanted which got in the way of her own goals/methods to helping the undercity. To Sevika, Vi was part of the "doing nothing" problem and in taking down Silco, Vi would effectively put an end to the freedom Sevika had been fighting for for so long. Therefore Sevika actually had a lot riding on winning the fight.
I think it's easy to think of the side characters as just bystanders or henchpeople, but a closer look into Sevika's actions and conversations with both Silco and Vander show how much of a protagonist in her own story she really is.
I think of it as Sevika is to Vi as Magneto is to Professor X
OOOOO i’ve never thought of it that way!! i love taking a deeper look into less pronounced characters and their perspectives (especially if they were well-written into the story, no matter how subtle) because then i get even MORE story out of the grand one. it’s like dlc but for a show :)
i also love your take, very in tune with taking into considerations character’s experiences and how they reflect in their actions and thoughts and thus the meaning of those things.
Heimerdinger is the embodiment of the old traditional way of the Over City. He needs to fall to see that his way isn't working (realizing this walking through the under city). And by falling ,making way for Jayce's agenda.
He is several hundred years old and believed to be one of the founders of the city, so his fall and realizations are pretty substantial to him as a character for the next season.
This was how I saw his character unconsciously. Well summarized.
@@SonofSolomon I agree. I think this is the second side to what I've described. Either way is bad, every decision would have had a bad outcome.
@@SonofSolomon This is a really good counter-point.
I loved listening to your arcane discussion! But Mel didn't suddenly become erratic, her mom visited her and reminded her a lot of herself, influencing Jace, urging on weapons development and pushing for war with the undercity. Mel does a 180 and ruins her painting because she doesn't want to be a Medarda, she takes of the ring when she votes!
Heimerdinger isn't bad at science, he doesn't want to continue with hex-tech because it's magic, he is the only one who knows where it leads and has seemingly founded a city of science because of this very fear. I think he wants to take things slow and downplay the short term because he thinks about things long term.
In Ep 1 Jinx, as Powder, put shrapnel into an explosive device to try to protect herself and her loot from an unarmed gang member (at least not brandishing). That CLEARLY shows a reckless disregard for life, and one hell of a skewed view of Right and Wrong. And it is reinforced by Vi, just like how Silco reinforces it later.
I think Heimerdinger, Jayce, and Viktor are all correct in their own individual assessments of Hextech.
It is very, very dangerous, and is a box you cannot close after it's been opened, like Heimerdinger said. We've only seen glimpses of this, but we HAVE seen it. The girl who liked Viktor was vaporized, for one, as well as the scene where some really dark and strange things happen to Viktor after he keeps fiddling with the crystal. These instances seemed to show, albeit briefly, the dangers that are to come.
But Jayce and Viktor are also right. Hextech can be an incredible blending of technology and magic that can make the lives of ordinary people better, among many other benefits.
If Brandon wants a single player LoL experience, I recommend Ruined King. One of my favorite turn based RPGs I've ever played. So well done
I'd also recommend the Legends of Runeterra PVE mode.
So pleased that Brandon also loved Arcane. It's absolutely not the style of me or my generation but it is so well crafted and so beautiful I love it anyway. Silco is the perfect villain. There's nuanced characters like him in novels, but we rarely see them on screen.
Ah I see, Brandon finally took a level in druid
Sanderson: "I like Jace a lot."
Me, a lonely Jace fan: VALIDATION, FINALLY.
Might wanna start by spelling Jayce's name right 🤣
there are dozens of us! dozens!
Oh its the ballad of the lonely Jayce fan, even his girlfriend's fans hate him...
Re: Mel's survival: The mega-nerds of LoL's fandom have alighted upon a hypothesis (as you are no doubt well-aware we do) that Mel's gold shoulder piece thing is an in-game item which provides shielding to teammates within a certain radius. While this in-game radius has little-to-no relevance to the dimensions of Piltover's Council Chamber as seen in _Arcane_, it is suggestive as a means to get, at minimum, Jayce, Viktor, Mel, and the councilmembers in their immediate vicinity through Jinx's blast alive. (In considering this hypothesis, I note that it would also be very easy for Jinx to have killed 5 people and no more in that singlehanded attack - an achievement which the game calls a "Pentakill!" to much laud and fanfare)
The real question everyone wanted to know was does arcane influence Brandon’s thought process when it comes to adapting is Work animated???
Agreed, that was where I wanted it to go
Probably still not. Honestly it took like 6 years to make 9 episodes of Arcane, it's not really going to be up to Brandon's speed.
I love Brandon Sanderson logical cool worlds/powers etc but sometimes i would like him go little more darker (atleast little more brutal for random people in books :P)
@@feral_orc I'm ok waiting 6 years to see Mistborn or Stormlight animated by Fortiche studios. I would even fund it.
@@francesccampos1343 I'm ok waiting for it too.
I think heimerdinger is another point of what you guys were talking about earlier in the episode, where even though the morally correct choice was to give up on hextech, the characters chose to go againts him and they were rewarded for it. But again, just because something worked out doesn't mean it was right. As Heimerdinger loses credibility, him making the same claim that he made at the start is seen worse even though his point is the same, which I assume will lead into him being right and having to deal with the fact that neither party was right. Heimerdinger's approach would have seen the world go without hextech, but Jayce and Viktor and Mel's approach will (imo) have countless deaths and will lead to the popularisation of hextech in all fields, including its militarization by people other than jinx. Also him being the only uncorrupted one on the council is a moral progression of the story when he is kicked out.
just my 2 cents
This is a bit late but jinx doesn't necessarily understand right from wrong as a kid. Episiode one she is being chased by a the gang member. And while the other kids use non lethal means to defend themselves jinx go to is to use a nail bomb. Episiode three she blows up the warehouse and is excited that it worked and doesn't become upset until vi becomes angry at her. She is then adopted by a violent criminal organization and used as a enforcer in his war. Even without her trauma/psychological issues she would still become jinx
I felt like Heimerdimger has been right the whole time. What they are doing is dangerous, very dangerous. His arc shows how disconnected with the lower city he was, because they were doing it too, in a much worse way. In the end, when all is said and done, Heimerdimger was always right.
Sevika v. Vi is ultimately supposed to be unsatisfying. Vi spends 6 episodes trying to get to Silco and keeps running into the brick wall that is Sevika. She manages to finally get through Sevika in her final fight, but even then cannot make it to the person she actually wants to fight. Nothing ever seems to work out for Vi - ever.
surprised they missed that point considering that brandon mentioned how he realized that this story intended to essentially make every character miserable. vi never truly wins, jinx never truly wins, silco, vander, jayce, mel, viktor… the list goes on. damn, even i’m realizing it, too.
Arcane: opens with shots of smoke and fire and enforcers brutally murdering people
Brandon: Takes until the end to realize it's grimdark.
Jk love ya brandosando
Best phrase of Víktor is "If you're going to change the world, don't ask for permision"
I much prefer "in the pursuit of great, we failed to do good".
"If you're going to change the world, don't ask for permission" endorses tyranny.
I prefer the other one but this one showed how dangerous he was, and the contrast between him and Heimer as the extreme ends of a spectrum.
Quick note: Jace wasn’t the only playable character in the council room when the rocket hit the window. Victor is there as well.
My personal assumption is that Victor’s ability to absorb hextech will save Jace and disfigure Victor in the way Dan was waiting for.
I think Jayce's hammer will shield him (I think he had it with him), Victor is going to be hurt and forced to complete his transformation. And Mel is also going to survive, as we see her back glowing just as the rocket hits, I think showing that she has some magical powers that will save her. Everyone else on the council will probably die.
Ok. The between Sevika and Vi was NOT the “boss fight.” You guys even said. Vi likes to punch problems, and there is so much going on she can’t control. Vi was looking for somebody that could hit her back because she was going to explode. She’s drinking during the fight. Rage screaming. Even though she finally found a problem to punch, it still just made things worse.
Vi's hatred of Sevika did not get enough screen time for most people to piece it together in time for the showdown to really make sense. This was one of my only pet peeves in the season. Sevika was the right hand to Vander, then betrayed him when Silco gave her a better offer. "Better," in that he seemed more likely to go to war with the over-city. Sevika revealed her betrayal in episode 3, cementing Vi's hatred of her. Everyone else that joined Silco, as far as we know, did it because Vander was gone. Sevika betrayed him to join Silco. In a sense, Vander died because of Sevika. Again, this was really good motivation, but we did not get enough screen time or explicit dialogue to build up the payoff, so anyone that missed these little details probably went into the big showdown like, "Why is Vi so mad at her specifically?" I would have loved to see more build-up, but episode 3 already had so much to unpack and there wasn't time to really flesh out Sevika's right-hand status in earlier episodes because there was so much to unpack in *those* scenes as well, but that is why Vi hated her.
EDIT: Also, Sevika was present when Vander was killed, not sure how ya'll missed that one. She lost her arm taking the blast to save Silco when Powder killed everyone. That is how we knew she betrayed Vander in the first place. Like I said, episode 3 had a lot to unpack so it was hard to catch everything in the first watch through.
Does the narrative prove Heimerdinger wrong? Jayce, Viktor and Jinx have all gotten people killed using magic, so......
People died from poverty as well.
Heimerdinger was so disconnected from mortal lives that he couldn’t see that to help people suffering now they had to take risks
Yeah, Heimerdinger was definitely cautious to a fault, but tossing that caution aside completely and putting the people who want to fully embrace the creepy magic without hesitation in charge isn't great either. Which fits into the show's larger theme that an inability to compromise--even if the reasons for that refusal to compromise seem noble--leads to pain.
@@Meloncov gotta appreciate that the writing was so well done it exposes so many problems this world presents for its characters.
15:10 I slightly disagree with Brandon's tiny gripe about Vi here. I don't expect any dramatic change in Vi at all. It makes sense to me that she came outta prison practically the same as when she went in. Much like in reality, being isolated from the outside world slows (if not completely halts) your growth as a person. Time practically slows/stops for inmates who are no longer connected to a world that's moving along without them. This is especially true if we're to believe she spent more than a lil' bit of time in complete isolation, as implied when we meet her again. It's everyone else who had the benefit of changing along with their environment. Her environment didn't change for 10 years, so I wouldn't expect her to either.
I disagree. Having known people who were inmates, quite a bit of change happens. In my case they went from loud, reactionary and angry to being calm, collected, and became very thoughtful with their actions. I think because of this “slowness” and isolation that you talk about it causes them change quite a bit. Because they don’t experience life like a normal person it causes more self reflection (in some individuals), also the people you are surrounded by will cause changes within the individual. I’ve also seen some individuals go into confinement as a calm person and they become angry and bitter over time.
Your view does make sense to me, but due to my own personal experiences I agree with Sanderson more.
@@Sam-vk8xd You have to measure the impact of prison based on the change in lifestyle it represents. Vi already felt subjugated by Topside while she wasn't in prison, that hasn't really changed for her. There is a material change but more minor then we would typically think of someone going to prison. She was already surrounded by criminals and the enforcers pretty much represented the prison guards.
I would argue the biggest change for Vi moving forward from episode 3 is how she sees herself living with the feeling of failing her sister, and that any major arc in character development is better viewed through that lens. The prison wasn't as much punishment as she was punishing herself, and I would argue people who punish themselves for past actions don't typically change much.
@@housey_ I do see your point, but then I think about how the warden put her through the ringer. She was constantly being picked on, and sure, while she was to some extent used to that growing up, she also had Vander growing up. Vander was her light, her lifeline, her hope, her family. To take Vander away, then the guilt of pushing away her sister plus being thrown into a place where she has nothing. I don’t know. Again, I see your point, but to me everything points to she should’ve had some bigger character change, not necessarily growth from it but a change fore sure. I literally watched the same character for 9 episodes. Not a bad character, but her lack of changing is just made so obvious because she’s next to all these other character who did have changes.
@@Sam-vk8xd I'm open to accepting it as minor quibble but I I'd prefer it be based on an affirmative reasoning rather than a dissatisfaction that she had no change. If a change should have happened I think it would be easy to describe how you expect her to have changed, maybe that would convince me on it more.
@@housey_ The change (and even later character growth) I expected was for her to become more reserved. Doubtful of her abilities, her worth and so on, more pensive in her previous actions. The first 3 episodes we have a leader Vi, one who charges forward, headfirst at times. With all the events that happened, plus her incarceration I would’ve expected her to be less of all these things. More doubting in her choices, maybe even afraid of the world and so on and then in this way as she ventures out, she reclaims parts of herself, sees her mistakes and rebuilds into a stronger version of herself with her past failures and loses…. Or something to that extent.
Sadly, most shows nowa days are afraid to show a vulnerable woman even if it is for a second before her big growth where she becomes strong and powerful. It just felt like a missed opportunity to me. Now, mind you, I’m not trying to convince you. You can have your opinion, and I’ll have mine. I take no issue with your views on Vi as a character as she is. My small quibble is almost insignificant and doesn’t detract from how well the show and characters come together. My personal preferences just wanted more out of Vi.
1 of my favorite scenes in show was silco sitting under venders statue and having that monologue", all we ever dreamed off , the boy didint even haggle " such a great scene where he becomes what he hated . loved your takes on show ,keep up the great work
One of the things I love most about Arcane is that the writers actually had the balls to depict Zaun in a way that does justice to the established lore of the world. In general kids don't have plot armor on Runeterra and hoo boy I do hope we get more series like Arcane that take place in different parts of the world. Personally I'd love to see one with Malzahar as the main character before he becomes the Prophet of the Void.
The world is grimdark kinda like Warhammer so there's plenty of humor but one of the first playable characters in League also happens to be a little pyromancer girl who accidentally burnt her entire family along with their home.
25:30 ish: I saw someone else discussing Heimerdingr, and they took him as a symbol of the city. He's not really a character with agency so much as the old culture, a living piece of history, and so the reason it's framed as negative when they vote him out of the council is because the ruling body of the city is, in a metaphorical sense, breaking ties with it's own culture and history in favor of a new future. And I personally think the writers want us to wander if this is Jace and his political allies going too far in the name of progress. "Wait, Heimerdingr may be overly cautious, trapped in his fears of a past foe, but he's well-meaning in a way most of these politicians aren't. Is this really a good thing for the city, to oust him?"
This is a reasonable interpretation without knowing Heimerdinger's in game background.
It would have been an interesting way to handle the character but that's not where he is headed.
Wow I love this show, a real labour of love, you can feel how much effort they put into it over 6 years. On one hand I can't wait for another season, on the other I want them to take as long as possible to make it just as good.
Oh, I wanted to add, I actually really liked that Melora didn't end up being nefarious. I thought that would have been terribly obvious and also would have been repeating a tired sexist trope about powerful/ambitious women. I can see how maybe there was a missing story beat--something like Jayce thinking she was betraying him and turning out to be wrong would have been nice. But still, I was pleasantly surprised that they didn't go with the "sudden but inevitable betrayal" thing.
Damn right the show is a masterpiece XD
While I do not agree with all of Dan's and Brandon's opinions about the characters, it was a very interesting discussion and breakdown, as always. I am a bit disappointed though that they didn't discuss Caitlyn. She was one of my favourites in the show.
Brandon is really reinforcing the idea of being the person with the best takes ever. Both Arcane and Titanfall 2 are masterpieces.
Facts.
Did you guys forget that Savika worked with Vander at the start and turned against him to work for Silco in episode 3? And she was going to fight Vi in episode 3 (and lost her arm in the explosion), but Silco held her back and gave shimmer to Deckard to go after Vi instead? She was super involved in betraying Vander and his death and Vi knew it.
While I can certainly in some way agree with Brandon that Arcane's setting is more grimdark than most other fantasy, I would argue that the nature of good decisions bringing about bad outcomes is part of it being a Tragedy. You can do the right thing, but it will not solve everything and with so many factors and actors in play, things will inevitably go wrong.
And when the situation has been left to fester and degenerated so badly to the conflicts in Arcane show, doing the right thing may not be enough to stop forces that may have been headed off earlier.
I agree with the fact that it is a masterpiece, and therefore have watched it way to many times. As such I want to add some things to the discussion. Let's start with Mel. The way I see it is that she has an internal struggle between what she was taught is best for her country, and between her own beliefs. In the beginning, she sees technology as a means for power. Her upbringing clearly would have seen technology as a weapon, and although she broke away from her mom and thus her beliefs, she still carries that with her in some sort, thus being interested in Jayce and his invention. Therefore she manipulates him in the beginning. As she grows closer to him, she also grows closer to her own morals, him representing that part. A small but important moment in her character arc is after she sleeps with Jayce, he leaves, she is angry, but not surprised. Then he comes back and shows her his vulnerability. Now, she is taken aback by that. Jayce in that moment has no defences, it is just the purity of it. And I think it is that purity in him that started to change her even before this moment. However, I do agree that this should have been more clear, as I can only say that this is how I have interpreted her arc.
Then we have Heimerdinger, and once again I agree with what they said. For one, he does look like a disney character and it makes him stand out. However, and I don't know if they did this on purpose, Heimerdinger is kinda out of touch with the reality of the under city, as is also shown in the series. When it comes to his opinions on science, I also agree with what is said. In the first few episodes he should have had moments where he was correct, to make him more of a wise character. At this moment, we see him more as a cautious character than a scientist of his own. But what I find interesting about his character, is that later on, all of what he warns against, does happen. We see the crystals having a dooming effect in the under city, while they mean progress for the topsiders. He warns Jayce about the new inventions of his hammer not being ready, and later on we see Jayce accidentally kill a child with that hammer. Heimerdinger is interesting in that he is a character with a lifespan that last way longer than the others and thus most of his warnings take a few episode to happen because his perspective on immediate time is difference. He does not warn about what will happen tomorrow, but rather over the span of week, months, years. And I dare argue that we can even read some commentary about our own politics in this. A commentary of our time is that politicians make decisions based on what gets them more votes in the next election, thus chosing things that have results now, not in long terms. Thus what does it mean that Heimerdinger, the one character who is for slow progress instead of rapid one, is voted of the council. Another thing about Heimerdinger is that he represents older science, while Victor and Jayce represent the fast science of modernism. All this to say that there are many layers to Heimerdinger as a character.
I'm sorry this was such an essay of a comment, but much like Brandon Sanderson, there are many ways to describe me but brief ain't one of them haha
I think what Sevika needed is a scene with her and Vi before she left Vander for Silco, to show a bit of what their relationship was like before. I suspect Vi may have really looked up to her.
Yes! Literally binged the show last week so I could be a part of this!
Arcane is a masterpiece. Definitely one of my favorite shows of all time (Animated or Live-Action). I'm so glad you enjoyed it, Mr. Sanderson. 👍
If any of your books (All of The Cosmere) get adapted someday, i would love to see it all beautifully animated like Arcane. It would be so amazing.
Maybe we forget things, but Vi fought Sevika once earlier and got beat, but was saved by Caitlyn during the series. The fight at the end was the second fight, where Vi wins. It was a rematch. Also, Sevika was involved with Vander, VI’s surrogate father. She was in the bar early on in the show when Vander runs everything.
I took it as She was Vander’s lieutenant first based on their early argument and it’s really her betrayal, taking all of Vander’s muscle with her, that cements Silco’s control over the Lanes. If not for her, in theory, once Silco captures Vander then Sevika and all the other people from the Lanes should be trying to rescue Vander (remembering his show of power when negotiating with the “traders” in episode one) but she has convinced them to fight with Silco instead. Maybe if she had done this on screen it would’ve helped explain her importance/role in VI’s story.
@@daedarc I believe you may be right. Stuff happens off screen a good bit.
“Vi doesn’t have a story arc”. I disagree, as her friendship and potential romantic relationship with Caitlyn (who I don’t think was mentioned) forces her to confront her deep rooted bias against the topsiders. Maybe not the deepest character arc, but more than zero.
She acts as a nice foil to Jayce's personality. When they kill the kid taking down the lab Vi is unbothered by it because it is essentially the trolly problem, but Vi has seen that trolly run over people every day living in Zaun.
I disagree with your disagreement
I agree that she has an arc and Caitlyn is part of it, but I disagree on what that arc is. Overcoming her bias towards Piltover isn't ever really focused on throughout her journey and Caitlyn doesn't change any of her beliefs. However, I think Caitlyn's role in her story is to serve as a more healthy relationship than Vi's relationship with Jinx, and to catalyze Vi's arc of learning to take care of herself instead of shouldering everyone else's problems. Caitlyn is the first person since Vander that Vi can lean on, and I suspect that Vi's relationship with her will blossom as she begins to focus more on herself instead of saving Jinx.
So what I'm hearing is that we need a session where Brandon plays League while Dan mocks him relentlessly and a session where Dan plays Elden Ring while Brandon cackles his head off
We talked about doing this last night.
When it comes to Mel's character, I think her driving motivation was not a scheme but an underlying insecurity. We see her think of herself as an exile, as the "poorest Medarda" and such, and I think it shows that she was seeking power primarily to sate her own insecurities. However, she shifts once she gets her prize in Jayce (satisfying some of her insecurity) and more so once she sees gains a more concrete identity in having a merciful approach to ruling. When her mother shows up it shocks her into actually choosing her own path, mercy, in contrast to her mother who uses violence and manipulation.
Very thoughtful discussion. On the 'No good deed goes unpunished' it's an interesting challenge to come up with counter examples.
First thing that comes to mind would be Caitlyn saving Vi at the end of episode 5 and through into episode 6, I'm sure people will have some disagreement on that though.
I've never given grimdark this in-depth thought, this is neat
They start talking about arcane at 5:55
Haha thank you.
21:03
That is a begrudged "You're right" from Dan
Lol I love these podcasts ❤️
I don't feel like Mel's character had a sudden change. It was revealed in the later acts why she did everything. Being raised by that type of mother would have made her want to make sure her city was the most powerful and most protected. Sure, she rejected her mother's lust for violence so she didn't want to wipeout the undercity, but she still wanted to make sure her side had the biggest weapons/tools. Could have been a bit more fleshed out, but I think it made sense to me.
I think Vi's fight with the dinner lady, was to the represent her tying up loose ends. And was also implemented to be her final flaw. She didn't need to go fight her, she simply wanted to. Echo mentions many times that Vi is stubborn and hot headed, and I think this fight was to represent that fact. She went there to settle a score. Putting her in a shape that allowed Jinx to abduct her easily. It's just another example of Vi not knowing where to put her anger, and how to best use her influence in the story.
Regarding Jinx’s inability to determine right from wrong, keep in mind she thought she was helping (“doing the right thing”) yet in the process killed her friends and “lost” her sister. This event had to have made an impact that makes it almost impossible for her to know what to do or the right path to take, emphasized by the grim dark nature of the story.
I have no idea what Arcane is, but Brandon's diet is really working, although he's much more harry, and the lack of body mass makes his eyes much more protuberant. Still handsome, though. Dan, handsome is as handsome does.
Heimerdinger is a complex character. Because of his past with magic and knowing how bad it can be he is over cautious about the good. However, he also serves as the voice of warning. While he may see the worst in Hextech it also seems like he is the only one who can see the bad.
Brandon never looked better :D Just look at the wisdom in his eyes
To Brandon's preference for single player games, Ruined King was fantastic.
!!Episode Spoiler!! Imagine having worked on Arcane, and then listening to Brandon Sanderson state that it's a masterpiece.
I'm disappointed this episode isn't titled, "Is cocaine a food?"
15:56 "thank you for trying to help him when he's in danger, here's your vaporization" 😂😂
Really cool to see an actual author talking about a show you like like a CZcamsr
League used to depict Jayce as a Superman type. It doesn't anymore. It depicts him now as an arrogant asshole who doesn't really care about anyone but keeps a good outward face of being the Superman type. I don't agree with this characterization personally. I much prefer Arcane's take on him. He's still arrogant, but it's arrogance that is fueled by wanting to do good things for people
So, here are my comments about the discussion!
> I saw (and liked) Vi's arc as Kaladin arc, if Kaladin wasnt the protagonist of the story! :P
Life keeps beating her up, and she keeps going against what she think is wrong. I understand they are not equal, just similar.
> Loved the interpretation of Viktor as Jayce's consciousness, from my perspective I was thinking about the duality of them in the same way as the duality of the cities. Both were brilliant and great, but Jayce was not broken by his city, so he could "succeed" as a politician/public figure. Piltover not seeing Viktor in the same way was a way to show how eugenist the city is towards Zaun.
> Silco is just a perfect villian.
> Ekko vs Jinx was the climax of the show, beautiful scene!
> Also, Heimerdinger is a Yordle, as far as I know, they are kinda immortal, and Heimer even says he already lived hundreds of years. By the flashbacks I understood he already lived through a war using magic and know the danger. The problem is that he doesnt know how to explain it and don't understand the "timing" of humans that want things fast.
Glad you liked it but you got Heimerdinger completely wrong. He IS right to fear Hextech and we see that by what happens with Viktor. This is his purpose in the story, he is right BUT he fails to communicate with everyone due to his unique perspective of being 300 years old. Heimerdinger and Viktor is what happens when idealism clashes with reality and that was the most interesting part of the story for me.
I think maybe a failure with the hextech should have happened earlier, in the first three episodes and maybe a failure that wasn't just focused on one person. I think what Brandon and Dan are trying to say is that the setup of Heimerdinger's misgivings doesn't happen until Viktor and the hex core and by that point we understand why Viktor is doing it and we're not really outraged by him misusing the technology
@@nicoleKerry23 All the other criticisms were on point, I just think they misunderstood the Hextech part of the story. They also missed the Savika importance and why she is the final fight for Vi but I'll be honest I missed it too when i first watched the show.
Great Arcane discussion. It was well worth the wait.
Himerdinger is more essential to ekkos progress in season 2 very likely, especially if there is a big time jump. If we counter in ekkos future game-like transformation