I received private piloting training 40+ years ago on a H500D and a Bell 206B. I haven't flown real helis since, so I jumped right into MSFS 2020 when I learned they support helicopters. I decided to go with VR, a specialized control system (Puma X), and a DOF Reality P6 moving platform. The results were amazing. I had to retrain my muscle memory and it took me quite a few practice hours to be able to decently control FlyInside’s Bell 206 in realistic mode. I stay away from some heli models that feel game-like. In my opinion, flying a helicopter with the right gear in MSFS won't turn you into a real pilot but boy, does it help. If you want to pursue real-life training you will certainly have a tangible advantage.
I fly a Bell 407 out of the Downtown heliport everyday doing tours! It's cool to see the heliport modeled so well. I've flown the sims, and I do think they are pretty accurate, however, it's hard to accurately critique without being able to feel the movement of the aircraft in response to the controls. Sims are great to practice EPs though!
After getting my PPL in GA aircraft in the early 70's I had the opportunity to fly a Bell Jetranger. The how is funny, because my next door neighbour kept angora goats and being goats they would escape from time to time, so he'd hire a chopper to go find them in the state forest behind our farms. He kept his C172 in the same hanger that the Bell owner, so he got mates rates on hire. Anyway, I'd come along as an extra pair of eyes to find the damn goats. So one day we just could not spot them and we just started taking turns to learn to fly a helicopter instead. This was in the days of Apple II computers, so flight sims then were very basic. As pilots we both adapted to cruise mode very easily, but hovering near the front of my house on a level paddock was akin to balancing on a bowling ball. Neither of us could manage it for long. We both did manage to take off though, but the owner would not let us land. Not long after I built a Benson gyrocopter from a kit, as I'd always been interested in them having seen the dealer fly some demos. Now gyroplanes in general have no collective, only cyclic plus an engine behind with a pusher prop, so they are always in autorotation. All I had for a seat was a plastic school chair with a lap belt to keep me in. No windscreen, and nothing below me except a great view and a bloody long fall. The wind on that was akin to riding a motorbike and I loved it. But I got to see one too many accidents (one fatal) and, having a young family decided maybe gliders were a better idea so I sold it. I's say the choppers that I fly in MSFS lack much of the lift and sway from your inner ear and seat of your pants you need to fine tune hovering, despite owning a Pimax Crystal VR headset and a DOF Reality motion simulation platform (which I find too jerky no matter what settings I use). Still it's immense fun as flights sims are like something from the future to an old codger like me.
Thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds awesome. Can I quote you in a future video about hovering feeling like "balancing on a bowling ball"? Your comment about the DOF is what I'm especially curious about. Which model do you use? And as I mentioned I rate VR heli about 60-70% of the "real thing". How much closer to real does DOF put you? Or does it not add any further realism because it doesn't perform in a smooth enough manner?
@@CaptainHelisim Sure you can quote me, no problem. I have the M2 motion seat which I modded to also hold a stick, throttle quadrant and rudder pedals, so basically a H2. DOF Reality have better motors and especially gearboxes now, but you can't get away from the inherent jerkiness of electric motor control, they are more suited for racing sim set ups than flight sims. Hydraulics or pneumatic systems are far smoother, but cost a fortune. To be honest I don't use the DOF that much; if anything I find a buttkicker style vibration set up is enough to get a good sense of being in a plane or chopper....along with VR of course.
@@Sean_CoyneI have a similar setup where I modded an NLR V3 to full motion, not just seat. The main thing that make motion platforms worthwhile, is the g-forces make you more conservative. Trying to hover without motion has no consequences besides your view getting unstable. In a motion rig doing a wrong manoeuvre while hovering jolts your body and introduces extra stress, you need to be able to keep calm while fighting g-forces. They are small but the tricks they play on your brain are very real. I am not a real pilot btw.
30 year private pilot here. Low and slow was my interest. Built an experimental open seat 90 HP gyroplane and a small open cockpit sport plane from plans and using raw materials (took me 20 years to complete). THE major element missing from ALL sims is gravitational force and wind and weather effects which move both you and the aircraft around, sometimes in a frightening manner. Sims lack realism regardless of how much you have invested in hardware
Every now and then, you watch a CZcams vid and discover that the author has a mind 100% on the same wavelength as you. It is a good feeling. I really get where you are coming from. I too used a throttle on a joystick when helis first came into sims, in fact, I used the twist grip rudder on an MS Sidewinder joystick too. It worked but scored very low on realism. MFG Crosswind pedals were a game changer, as was a Warthog joystick with long extension. Then a home built collective and then VR. I made sure all of the controls match up with their positions in VR not only for comfort but for reality and immersion. I too can't wait to invest in a motion setup and am fascinated like you are to see how that affects added realism.
When I got a collective, it made all the difference in my sim heli flying. I always recommend it to anyone who is really into sim heli flying. And, I agree with you about VR being a total game-changer. I now call using a monitor "flying through a mailbox", because the difference is that profound. :D
I had a trial lesson many years ago, the cruise was easy but the hover was REALLY tricky ( was gusty winds ), the sim in comparison was very different in the hover and quite unrealistic I thought. Side note I fly RC Helicopters now and now have 3 axis gyros which make them very easy and stable to fly.
I'm curious which model chopper you had your trial lesson in. I can imagine it would be more challenging in gusty winds. I did find it different though as I mentioned the fear of "no respawns" in a million dollar vehicle affected my swagger and the unfamiliarity with an actual collective contributed to the overall awkwardness. Now that I've put in some time on the new DIY collective I'd love to try it again. Sad face: I asked the chopper training company if I could go for another intro flight and they said no -- it's strictly to decide if you want to get a license. If the answer is no, basically bug off. Which accounts for the sad face :(
Great story. I think to bring up that percentage would be to use a motion platform with real controls. I've been into flight sims since the 80's/90's. I didn't get serious until 98. That's when I started with helicopters. I didn't enjoy the aircraft that much during that time period. It wasn't until 2002 that I got into the jets, then the payware stuff in 2004. My goal one day is to build a full-size replica of a cockpit on a motion platform, but I'm still debating which platform to use. Thanks again for the story. Cheers.
Just this morning I took a flight in the front of an AS350 and really felt out the dynamics. I'll be doing a video on that soon but cut to the chase - mostly I felt vibration and for the most part it was constant. I didn't even really feel touchdown. Mostly in your seat G's but I tracked that motion and it was under 1.2g the whole time. Pilot skid a couple times and we got some side acceleration but not more than a couple times. I could feel the yaw swish but also not particularly notable. Although the flight was awesome in every way from a sim standpoint I have to say I really don't see a good value proposition in motion for helicopter purposes. Would it make a difference? Sure. Is it worth thousands? Eh. I really think more visual realism would do helisim far more good. We need more detail - more tree texture, grass blowing, water wake, etc. That will surely take more computing horsepower on top of whatever software delivers it, and whatever money is needed for that IMO is better spent than on motion rigs. Purely for helicopter purposes now. If you want to race cars or fly jets different story but it doesn't feel to me like motion in helicopter work is a good investment.
Very informative. I am not an IRL helicopter pilot, but I have flown a lot on DCS, X-Plane and MSFS. I am already on VR and using a proper set of collective, cyclic and pedals. Yes I agree VR does makes all the difference, but even in VR, the field of view is still limited compared to the naked eye, which limits your peripheral vision. I have read lots of comments that real life helicopter flying is easier than in a simulator (with VR) due to the fact that in a sim, there is no feeling of motion/movement, it all depends on your visuals, but in real life, the motion of the heli is another "sense" that helps you. What do you think ?
I only had an intro flight in an R22 and I can say that the motion threw me off a bit. As I mentioned in the video there were enough unanticipated factors involved that I was not as comfortable as I hoped I would be. The motion, the wind, the vibration, the fear, etc... it's a lot to process when there's a million dollars in your hands. As for the VR, I wish someone had fully described what it would be like -- and here is the description: with the Varjo Aero at least, it's like flying with a scuba mask on. That's your field of view, and the crappy scuba mask plastic is your resolution. You're looking at the world through a scuba mask. Now given that, you can then say how much wider or sharper a comparative VR headset would be with the standard everyone is familiar with -- wearing a scuba mask. Some headsets are much wider, many are less sharp. Those are your options. Nothing is as good as real life as far as I know. But I did not find the difference between VR and real life in an actual helicopter to be disorienting. It was the other factors.
You asked if anyone could comment on how motion simulators compare to actual flying. I have an H3 DOF Reality Motion Simulator. I have been flying several helicopters in MSFS 2020 and X Plane 12 for about 6 months. About 35 years ago I did get my private pilot license and mostly flew a Cessna 152. I don't think the motion simulator is anything at all like the actual flight experience. But I have to admit that it has been a very long time since I flew an actual aircraft and I'm not sure I've done a very effective job of configuring the motion simulator software. I think my motion simulator would be more realistic for race car simulation. But I have become used to using the motion simulator so I use for all my flights. I only fly in VR as it is so much more enjoyable than flat screen.
Thank you for the comment! From my memory of my one intro flight in an R22, I don't think the feeling is very strong. Meaning the G forces are not as strong as they are in an fixed wing, probably because an airplane is a more robust vehicle and generally travels at higher speed. So it could be that a motion rig is really not that useful in heli flight. I'm trying to arrange some actual commercial helicopter simulator time for comparison purposes. I agree about VR. It's indispensable for chopper flight.
I've never used one so I can't speak to it. I imagine it's something like between a single screen and VR in terms of "realism". It would be convenient to be able to look around without hitting buttons to look but you're still looking through a "slot" as opposed to a monitor "frame". Also depth perception is missing and I personally find that particularly useful as I get close to ground. To sense why it matters, and I'm not super recommending this because it's a bit dangerous, but try driving around in stop and go traffic with one eye closed. You still have one eye that can see fine all the way around as needed. And even with red brake lights in front of you, you'll find it hard to judge distance without your two eyes. The difference is startling. I tried it once and found it disorienting and unsafe. Again, careful trying this. Don't do it in abruptly changing traffic conditions as there's a real potential of rear ending someone. That's how much it matters. So with VR.
i have flown flight sims for over 10+ years and 2,000 hours with at least 1,000 hours just on the UH-1 and MI-8 in DCS world and done a heli flight recently and found that everything was quite easy to pick up, the instructor pilot done hovering with me first and he was comfortable enough to let me to the full climb out including flying through translation lift and cruise, and he even let me fly at tree top hight along a river as i was able to control the R22 quite well thanks the DCS UH-1 being just a heavy version of the R22. To me it was only a case of associating the feelings with that the helicopter was doing around me and once i got that it just felt super nautral and i was flying really smooth. I have found the DCS world gives the best/closest comparison to real life flying as in MSFS and X-plane the helicopters just don't have the weight and momentum like DCS and Real life so it tends for feel on rails on MSFS whereas DCS the UH-1 in my case fells so realistic after flying the R22 and R44 irl X-Plane R22 is great for learning the start up and shutdown following the IRL checklists but thats about it, it still feels a bit too light and on rails compared with IRL flying it. all the helicopters on MSFS and X-plane I've tried are nothing like IRL and feel weightless and on rails most of my flight sim has been in Combat simulation where flying is secoundary compared and carrying out a mission with the aircraft systems ( weapons and sensors ) and your not just flying from point A to B, the instructor did comment on how quickly i picked everything up and how aware of was of everything around the helicopter which comes naturally after watching out for enemy ground units and planes wanting to kill you all the time in DCS world XD. A big thing to watch for is negitive training from flight simulations, on MSFS 2020, MSFS X, X-plane and P3D you have to be VERY careful of this as bad habits are very easy to pick up in them due to the lack of damage models among other things. On the likes of DCS world you don't have to worry as much though due to the far higher level of damage models and helicopter simulation detail in the flight models which force you to think much more carefully about what your doing with the helicopter and its limits within the sim. DCS world models things like VRS, negitive G causing mast bumping, retreating blade stall and loss of tail rotor effectiveness, low rotor RPM etc really well * I should note I'm a Machine operator currently driving tractors and have experinced driving all sorts of different heavy machinery and have been driving stuff from a very young age so am very good at adapting to new things and I'm begining flight training to become a commercial helicopter pilot in a week so can go further once I'm in the middle of training and have been able to see the comparsion between myself and other trainee pilots that don't have any flight sim experince. but to already have a instructor feel comfortable enough with my first 20 mins of a trail flight to let me fly at low level i think says alot about how Flight simulations can be a useful tool but just using a single flight sim by itself doesn't provide any advantage and can be worse if not done with the right intention. I also fly with a screen and trackIR with a thrustmaster warthog HOTAS and verpil rudder pedals
There's pros and cons to MSFS and DCS. DCS: - Flight model - Mission focus MSFS: - Realistic scenery - Civilian aircraft The sweet spot is the combination of both which doesn't exist. But my question to you is -- in MSFS have you tried any of the payware models like Cowansim 500, Flyinside 206, and HPG 145? I haven't been in DCS in awhile so can't fully judge from recollection of flight models who they compare with DCS' Huey. But I can say that the 145 is a completely different beast from the freeware 135 and does model VRS, retreating blade stall, auto rotation, etc.
@@CaptainHelisim yep, i own the MD500, bell 206, AS350 in MSFS and fly each of them, i've yet to try the 135 and 145 as i don't normally see them doing the kind of flying I'm interested in doing once i get my commercial helicopter licence i've personally found that if you want to get the most out of flight simulation without teaching yourself too many bad habits the best way to use each of the different flight sims is as follows: X-plane: - Start up/shut down/normal cruise procedures MSFS - Navigation including learning how to use GPS, and navigate using maps with landmarks thanks to being able to flight VFR everywhere. - Airspace ( assuming your using VATSIM and airport charts ) DCS World - Flight dynamics and how helicopters behave - Emergency procedures like auto rotations. ( true engine failures are never planned IRL much like having a missile hit you in DCS destorying your engine and forcing you to think on the spot ) - Situation awareness ( This one is HUGE in aviation, being able to build a mental picture of the world around you is critual for being a pilot and DCS world can force you to build situation awareness and how to hold it, if you don't have SA you are dead in no time thanks to always having someone or thing trying to kill you and this building of SA carrys over to IRL flying incredibly well and makes you a way better pilot than anything else ) - Just staying calm, when shit hits the fan as it often does when flying in DCS world, having been shot to peices and lost all sorts of different systems at all sorts of different speeds and heights, when something goes wrong i never see it as much of a problem and can quickly work through the problem and correct procedures as I've already been in all sort of diffenent bad situations thanks to combat flying on DCS, this was commented on by one of my future instructors when i was having a go on their flight schools VR sim with full controls ( collective, flight stick and heli pedals ) the instructor killed my engine randomly during the flight without me knowing he was going to and said my entry into the autorotation was really good and clean. he also changed the weather live from clear day to instant heavy cloud with no vis and i just looked down at my instruments and kept the heli flying along like normal which was also commented on as most people freak out if they suddenly cant see outside and crash quickly.
@@blackfoxnz9359 Yes, am aware of those limitations. I actually remember when I first got FS2020 I took one of those long term bush trips. I was flying along in a bush plane in the mountains and suddenly my engine died for no discernible reason. I quickly looked around for a place to land and headed there, made a clean landing and tried to understand why my engine died. Turns out it was a two wing tank and you have to manually manage the fuel flow. One of those really primitive bush planes. I switched tanks, started the engine, continued the journey. Also like to fly in bad weather and rely on instruments. I'm often surprised how often real world pilots crash because they can't see. I'm reminded of the cargo airliner pilot that lost his bearings, came out of the clouds and plowed a perfectly good airliner into the ground. Doesn't seem possible that a pilot could come into command of an airliner and not be fluid in switching to instruments, but there it is. So I'm curious --the 206 you fly -- is it flyinside or cowansim? I have both and have to say the flyinside is far more challenging. The cowansim 206 will let you abuse it, but not the flyinside. You WILL experience engine or gear failure, or VRS, or blade stall etc with flyinside. I love the 500 for how it feels but in one of my videos I do detail how the limitations of the machine are not well modeled.
@@CaptainHelisim just the cowansim one. i only fly it when i want to practice map reading/following, other than that i avoid it. I've found that theres no sweet spot where you can basicly have the helicopter perfectly balanced during cruise flight and it feels like its hard coded to just randomly change the aircraft pitch or roll every so often to try to simulate a semi rigid rotor system. I'll have to look into the flyinside one as i havent heard of that dev before. ( i don't keep up to date with everything on msfs )
Shea Stadium, never heard anyone call it Mets Stadium. Also, disappointed to see you couldn't land on those addon buildings. That's why i've avoided purchasing Manhattan/NYC addons. I can land on any photogrammetry building or object in NYC including where i live, lol.
You are correct -- Shea Stadium. I've been out of NYC long enough evidently I've forgotten. And yes, I used to be able to land on the former Pan Am building with the stock scenery (though it was quite rough) and with the add on I lost that ability which is very disappointing.
Im 22 hours into my PPL(H) licence. Straight flight no problem but as you say hovering takes a little time to master, along with shooting approaches. I don’t think a lot of things transfer across. You become a better sim pilot after flying IRL but not so much the other way round
My problem with simulator heli flying is, especially during landings, that I have a very hard time distinguishing whether the helicopter pitches up or down, or moves up or down. And that always throws me and botches up my landings.
Yes I know what you mean. I wonder if that's where a motion rig bridges the perceptability gap. Are you using VR? Even with VR it's still hard to parse nose up from ascent. And this is perhaps why most helicopter landings seem to use a "glide slope" of sorts -- you pick your landing spot and descend to it in stabilized fashion specifically to avoid cavorting back and forth trying to judge what's actually happening i.e., altitude vs attitude.
@CaptainHelisim ... no, I haven't been able to afford vr yet...lol But that thing with establishing a glideslope sounds like it's worth trying, thanks !
My advice for what it is worth.... put whatever money you have into VR. It seems exoensive but until you first 'sit' in a cockpit and actually feel like you are there, you have no idea how it will change your world. If you are predominantly a heli flyer.... I couldnt recommend it more highly.
Agreed. I'm trying to look into the realm of motion platforms this year and assess how much the motion aspect contributes. As I mentioned, I think it's almost impossible to understand chopper flight without VR so that aspect is critical. But how much does motion contribute? Still quantifying that...
Id like to get into MSFS helicopter stuff, but there doesnt seem to be a good method of using the actual trim helicopters come with. Maybe Im missing something...
How do you mean @utley ? I used to use trim a lot when I had springs in my joystick but it never felt "natural". Releasing the trim or resetting it was always awkward because of the joystick centering problem. I can't say for sure how it works with real helicopters but I just find that they are too sensitive to have sudden abrupt control changes created by trim so I almost never use it after taking the joystick springs out. Is that awkward behavior what you mean?
@@CaptainHelisim i mean theres no trim button to map in MSFS that keeps the stick in the spot you trimmed it at. In helicopters its basically a magnetic brake that holds the stick in place when you press the trim button, and trim release releases the magnetic brake. some helicopters have a trim system like a winged airframe would, but they just move the joystick to a certain spot. You literally have to wrestle the stick the whole flight that Ive seen in MSFS, and its quite tiresome...shouldnt be that way. Thats why the trim system exists in helicopters, to prevent that.
@@utley You mean like in DCS's Huey which has a trim set and release? I'm not sure if MSFS has that though to be honest the DCS version is what I always felt was kind of awkward. If you release the trim and the controls are not set exactly where the trim says it needs to be, you get a sudden abrupt change in control inputs which I think in real life would probably result in catastrophic failure. I do have the ability to adjust trim in MSFS gradually where I can correct for particular bias in one direction or another; I don't find that as offensive but since taking the joystick springs out and just having a floppy stick I find more than enough control capability without back pressure to pilot as is without trim adjustments at all. One more note -- I just purchased the HPG145 and haven't really gone through all the documentation yet but I did notice there's substantial description of trim "set and release" functions. It's possible they provided the missing function you're describing in the model itself.
@@CaptainHelisim exactly like the DCS Huey. The Mi8/24 has a trim system similar to fixed wing. I have been looking for those specific trim functions in MSFS, and the ones Ive found were less than ideal if that. It bugs the hell out of me. I just switched to a different setup a few weeks ago Im not really able to put a stick in with an extension, I cant use a springless setup if I fly both fixed wing or rotary. Ive a few helicopters in MSFS that I really would love to fly right now...I have the Cowan Sims Bell 222, 500E and a couple other that I cant think of at the moment where I cant find any appropriate trimming function to map my controls to.
@@utley I'm flying right now to record some copy for the next video. Under Flight Control Surfaces => Control Trimming Surfaces, I have mapped: Rudder Trim Right Rudder Trim Left Increase Rotor Longitudinal Trim Increase Rotor Lateral Trim Decrease Rotor Longitudinal Trim Decrease Rotor Lateral Trim Have you tried any of those?
I received private piloting training 40+ years ago on a H500D and a Bell 206B. I haven't flown real helis since, so I jumped right into MSFS 2020 when I learned they support helicopters. I decided to go with VR, a specialized control system (Puma X), and a DOF Reality P6 moving platform. The results were amazing. I had to retrain my muscle memory and it took me quite a few practice hours to be able to decently control FlyInside’s Bell 206 in realistic mode. I stay away from some heli models that feel game-like. In my opinion, flying a helicopter with the right gear in MSFS won't turn you into a real pilot but boy, does it help. If you want to pursue real-life training you will certainly have a tangible advantage.
I fly a Bell 407 out of the Downtown heliport everyday doing tours! It's cool to see the heliport modeled so well. I've flown the sims, and I do think they are pretty accurate, however, it's hard to accurately critique without being able to feel the movement of the aircraft in response to the controls. Sims are great to practice EPs though!
Indeed, a great replacement to the old paper tiger and chair flying!
After getting my PPL in GA aircraft in the early 70's I had the opportunity to fly a Bell Jetranger. The how is funny, because my next door neighbour kept angora goats and being goats they would escape from time to time, so he'd hire a chopper to go find them in the state forest behind our farms. He kept his C172 in the same hanger that the Bell owner, so he got mates rates on hire. Anyway, I'd come along as an extra pair of eyes to find the damn goats. So one day we just could not spot them and we just started taking turns to learn to fly a helicopter instead. This was in the days of Apple II computers, so flight sims then were very basic. As pilots we both adapted to cruise mode very easily, but hovering near the front of my house on a level paddock was akin to balancing on a bowling ball. Neither of us could manage it for long. We both did manage to take off though, but the owner would not let us land.
Not long after I built a Benson gyrocopter from a kit, as I'd always been interested in them having seen the dealer fly some demos. Now gyroplanes in general have no collective, only cyclic plus an engine behind with a pusher prop, so they are always in autorotation. All I had for a seat was a plastic school chair with a lap belt to keep me in. No windscreen, and nothing below me except a great view and a bloody long fall. The wind on that was akin to riding a motorbike and I loved it. But I got to see one too many accidents (one fatal) and, having a young family decided maybe gliders were a better idea so I sold it.
I's say the choppers that I fly in MSFS lack much of the lift and sway from your inner ear and seat of your pants you need to fine tune hovering, despite owning a Pimax Crystal VR headset and a DOF Reality motion simulation platform (which I find too jerky no matter what settings I use). Still it's immense fun as flights sims are like something from the future to an old codger like me.
Thanks for sharing your experience, it sounds awesome. Can I quote you in a future video about hovering feeling like "balancing on a bowling ball"?
Your comment about the DOF is what I'm especially curious about. Which model do you use? And as I mentioned I rate VR heli about 60-70% of the "real thing". How much closer to real does DOF put you? Or does it not add any further realism because it doesn't perform in a smooth enough manner?
@@CaptainHelisim Sure you can quote me, no problem. I have the M2 motion seat which I modded to also hold a stick, throttle quadrant and rudder pedals, so basically a H2. DOF Reality have better motors and especially gearboxes now, but you can't get away from the inherent jerkiness of electric motor control, they are more suited for racing sim set ups than flight sims. Hydraulics or pneumatic systems are far smoother, but cost a fortune. To be honest I don't use the DOF that much; if anything I find a buttkicker style vibration set up is enough to get a good sense of being in a plane or chopper....along with VR of course.
@@Sean_CoyneI have a similar setup where I modded an NLR V3 to full motion, not just seat. The main thing that make motion platforms worthwhile, is the g-forces make you more conservative. Trying to hover without motion has no consequences besides your view getting unstable. In a motion rig doing a wrong manoeuvre while hovering jolts your body and introduces extra stress, you need to be able to keep calm while fighting g-forces. They are small but the tricks they play on your brain are very real. I am not a real pilot btw.
30 year private pilot here. Low and slow was my interest. Built an experimental open seat 90 HP gyroplane and a small open cockpit sport plane from plans and using raw materials (took me 20 years to complete). THE major element missing from ALL sims is gravitational force and wind and weather effects which move both you and the aircraft around, sometimes in a frightening manner. Sims lack realism regardless of how much you have invested in hardware
Every now and then, you watch a CZcams vid and discover that the author has a mind 100% on the same wavelength as you. It is a good feeling. I really get where you are coming from.
I too used a throttle on a joystick when helis first came into sims, in fact, I used the twist grip rudder on an MS Sidewinder joystick too. It worked but scored very low on realism.
MFG Crosswind pedals were a game changer, as was a Warthog joystick with long extension. Then a home built collective and then VR. I made sure all of the controls match up with their positions in VR not only for comfort but for reality and immersion. I too can't wait to invest in a motion setup and am fascinated like you are to see how that affects added realism.
When I got a collective, it made all the difference in my sim heli flying. I always recommend it to anyone who is really into sim heli flying. And, I agree with you about VR being a total game-changer. I now call using a monitor "flying through a mailbox", because the difference is that profound. :D
Thank you for sharing your experience sir. An important data point for me on my journey for sure, as I'm hoping for a similar experience soon 🙏
Document it, rate it, share it, add to the data!
I had a trial lesson many years ago, the cruise was easy but the hover was REALLY tricky ( was gusty winds ), the sim in comparison was very different in the hover and quite unrealistic I thought.
Side note I fly RC Helicopters now and now have 3 axis gyros which make them very easy and stable to fly.
I'm curious which model chopper you had your trial lesson in. I can imagine it would be more challenging in gusty winds. I did find it different though as I mentioned the fear of "no respawns" in a million dollar vehicle affected my swagger and the unfamiliarity with an actual collective contributed to the overall awkwardness. Now that I've put in some time on the new DIY collective I'd love to try it again.
Sad face: I asked the chopper training company if I could go for another intro flight and they said no -- it's strictly to decide if you want to get a license. If the answer is no, basically bug off. Which accounts for the sad face :(
Great story. I think to bring up that percentage would be to use a motion platform with real controls. I've been into flight sims since the 80's/90's. I didn't get serious until 98. That's when I started with helicopters. I didn't enjoy the aircraft that much during that time period. It wasn't until 2002 that I got into the jets, then the payware stuff in 2004. My goal one day is to build a full-size replica of a cockpit on a motion platform, but I'm still debating which platform to use. Thanks again for the story. Cheers.
Just this morning I took a flight in the front of an AS350 and really felt out the dynamics. I'll be doing a video on that soon but cut to the chase - mostly I felt vibration and for the most part it was constant. I didn't even really feel touchdown. Mostly in your seat G's but I tracked that motion and it was under 1.2g the whole time. Pilot skid a couple times and we got some side acceleration but not more than a couple times. I could feel the yaw swish but also not particularly notable. Although the flight was awesome in every way from a sim standpoint I have to say I really don't see a good value proposition in motion for helicopter purposes. Would it make a difference? Sure. Is it worth thousands? Eh. I really think more visual realism would do helisim far more good. We need more detail - more tree texture, grass blowing, water wake, etc. That will surely take more computing horsepower on top of whatever software delivers it, and whatever money is needed for that IMO is better spent than on motion rigs. Purely for helicopter purposes now. If you want to race cars or fly jets different story but it doesn't feel to me like motion in helicopter work is a good investment.
Very informative. I am not an IRL helicopter pilot, but I have flown a lot on DCS, X-Plane and MSFS. I am already on VR and using a proper set of collective, cyclic and pedals. Yes I agree VR does makes all the difference, but even in VR, the field of view is still limited compared to the naked eye, which limits your peripheral vision. I have read lots of comments that real life helicopter flying is easier than in a simulator (with VR) due to the fact that in a sim, there is no feeling of motion/movement, it all depends on your visuals, but in real life, the motion of the heli is another "sense" that helps you. What do you think ?
I only had an intro flight in an R22 and I can say that the motion threw me off a bit. As I mentioned in the video there were enough unanticipated factors involved that I was not as comfortable as I hoped I would be. The motion, the wind, the vibration, the fear, etc... it's a lot to process when there's a million dollars in your hands.
As for the VR, I wish someone had fully described what it would be like -- and here is the description: with the Varjo Aero at least, it's like flying with a scuba mask on. That's your field of view, and the crappy scuba mask plastic is your resolution. You're looking at the world through a scuba mask. Now given that, you can then say how much wider or sharper a comparative VR headset would be with the standard everyone is familiar with -- wearing a scuba mask. Some headsets are much wider, many are less sharp. Those are your options. Nothing is as good as real life as far as I know.
But I did not find the difference between VR and real life in an actual helicopter to be disorienting. It was the other factors.
You asked if anyone could comment on how motion simulators compare to actual flying. I have an H3 DOF Reality Motion Simulator. I have been flying several helicopters in MSFS 2020 and X Plane 12 for about 6 months. About 35 years ago I did get my private pilot license and mostly flew a Cessna 152. I don't think the motion simulator is anything at all like the actual flight experience. But I have to admit that it has been a very long time since I flew an actual aircraft and I'm not sure I've done a very effective job of configuring the motion simulator software. I think my motion simulator would be more realistic for race car simulation. But I have become used to using the motion simulator so I use for all my flights. I only fly in VR as it is so much more enjoyable than flat screen.
Thank you for the comment! From my memory of my one intro flight in an R22, I don't think the feeling is very strong. Meaning the G forces are not as strong as they are in an fixed wing, probably because an airplane is a more robust vehicle and generally travels at higher speed. So it could be that a motion rig is really not that useful in heli flight. I'm trying to arrange some actual commercial helicopter simulator time for comparison purposes. I agree about VR. It's indispensable for chopper flight.
So what’s your opinion about use of a Tobi eye tracker with three screens?
I've never used one so I can't speak to it. I imagine it's something like between a single screen and VR in terms of "realism". It would be convenient to be able to look around without hitting buttons to look but you're still looking through a "slot" as opposed to a monitor "frame". Also depth perception is missing and I personally find that particularly useful as I get close to ground.
To sense why it matters, and I'm not super recommending this because it's a bit dangerous, but try driving around in stop and go traffic with one eye closed. You still have one eye that can see fine all the way around as needed. And even with red brake lights in front of you, you'll find it hard to judge distance without your two eyes. The difference is startling. I tried it once and found it disorienting and unsafe. Again, careful trying this. Don't do it in abruptly changing traffic conditions as there's a real potential of rear ending someone. That's how much it matters. So with VR.
i have flown flight sims for over 10+ years and 2,000 hours with at least 1,000 hours just on the UH-1 and MI-8 in DCS world and done a heli flight recently and found that everything was quite easy to pick up, the instructor pilot done hovering with me first and he was comfortable enough to let me to the full climb out including flying through translation lift and cruise, and he even let me fly at tree top hight along a river as i was able to control the R22 quite well thanks the DCS UH-1 being just a heavy version of the R22. To me it was only a case of associating the feelings with that the helicopter was doing around me and once i got that it just felt super nautral and i was flying really smooth.
I have found the DCS world gives the best/closest comparison to real life flying as in MSFS and X-plane the helicopters just don't have the weight and momentum like DCS and Real life so it tends for feel on rails on MSFS whereas DCS the UH-1 in my case fells so realistic after flying the R22 and R44 irl
X-Plane R22 is great for learning the start up and shutdown following the IRL checklists but thats about it, it still feels a bit too light and on rails compared with IRL flying it.
all the helicopters on MSFS and X-plane I've tried are nothing like IRL and feel weightless and on rails
most of my flight sim has been in Combat simulation where flying is secoundary compared and carrying out a mission with the aircraft systems ( weapons and sensors ) and your not just flying from point A to B, the instructor did comment on how quickly i picked everything up and how aware of was of everything around the helicopter which comes naturally after watching out for enemy ground units and planes wanting to kill you all the time in DCS world XD.
A big thing to watch for is negitive training from flight simulations, on MSFS 2020, MSFS X, X-plane and P3D you have to be VERY careful of this as bad habits are very easy to pick up in them due to the lack of damage models among other things.
On the likes of DCS world you don't have to worry as much though due to the far higher level of damage models and helicopter simulation detail in the flight models which force you to think much more carefully about what your doing with the helicopter and its limits within the sim.
DCS world models things like VRS, negitive G causing mast bumping, retreating blade stall and loss of tail rotor effectiveness, low rotor RPM etc really well
* I should note I'm a Machine operator currently driving tractors and have experinced driving all sorts of different heavy machinery and have been driving stuff from a very young age so am very good at adapting to new things and I'm begining flight training to become a commercial helicopter pilot in a week so can go further once I'm in the middle of training and have been able to see the comparsion between myself and other trainee pilots that don't have any flight sim experince. but to already have a instructor feel comfortable enough with my first 20 mins of a trail flight to let me fly at low level i think says alot about how Flight simulations can be a useful tool but just using a single flight sim by itself doesn't provide any advantage and can be worse if not done with the right intention.
I also fly with a screen and trackIR with a thrustmaster warthog HOTAS and verpil rudder pedals
There's pros and cons to MSFS and DCS.
DCS:
- Flight model
- Mission focus
MSFS:
- Realistic scenery
- Civilian aircraft
The sweet spot is the combination of both which doesn't exist. But my question to you is -- in MSFS have you tried any of the payware models like Cowansim 500, Flyinside 206, and HPG 145? I haven't been in DCS in awhile so can't fully judge from recollection of flight models who they compare with DCS' Huey. But I can say that the 145 is a completely different beast from the freeware 135 and does model VRS, retreating blade stall, auto rotation, etc.
@@CaptainHelisim yep, i own the MD500, bell 206, AS350 in MSFS and fly each of them, i've yet to try the 135 and 145 as i don't normally see them doing the kind of flying I'm interested in doing once i get my commercial helicopter licence
i've personally found that if you want to get the most out of flight simulation without teaching yourself too many bad habits the best way to use each of the different flight sims is as follows:
X-plane:
- Start up/shut down/normal cruise procedures
MSFS
- Navigation including learning how to use GPS, and navigate using maps with landmarks thanks to being able to flight VFR everywhere.
- Airspace ( assuming your using VATSIM and airport charts )
DCS World
- Flight dynamics and how helicopters behave
- Emergency procedures like auto rotations. ( true engine failures are never planned IRL much like having a missile hit you in DCS destorying your engine and forcing you to think on the spot )
- Situation awareness ( This one is HUGE in aviation, being able to build a mental picture of the world around you is critual for being a pilot and DCS world can force you to build situation awareness and how to hold it, if you don't have SA you are dead in no time thanks to always having someone or thing trying to kill you and this building of SA carrys over to IRL flying incredibly well and makes you a way better pilot than anything else )
- Just staying calm, when shit hits the fan as it often does when flying in DCS world, having been shot to peices and lost all sorts of different systems at all sorts of different speeds and heights, when something goes wrong i never see it as much of a problem and can quickly work through the problem and correct procedures as I've already been in all sort of diffenent bad situations thanks to combat flying on DCS, this was commented on by one of my future instructors when i was having a go on their flight schools VR sim with full controls ( collective, flight stick and heli pedals ) the instructor killed my engine randomly during the flight without me knowing he was going to and said my entry into the autorotation was really good and clean. he also changed the weather live from clear day to instant heavy cloud with no vis and i just looked down at my instruments and kept the heli flying along like normal which was also commented on as most people freak out if they suddenly cant see outside and crash quickly.
@@blackfoxnz9359 Yes, am aware of those limitations. I actually remember when I first got FS2020 I took one of those long term bush trips. I was flying along in a bush plane in the mountains and suddenly my engine died for no discernible reason. I quickly looked around for a place to land and headed there, made a clean landing and tried to understand why my engine died. Turns out it was a two wing tank and you have to manually manage the fuel flow. One of those really primitive bush planes. I switched tanks, started the engine, continued the journey. Also like to fly in bad weather and rely on instruments. I'm often surprised how often real world pilots crash because they can't see. I'm reminded of the cargo airliner pilot that lost his bearings, came out of the clouds and plowed a perfectly good airliner into the ground. Doesn't seem possible that a pilot could come into command of an airliner and not be fluid in switching to instruments, but there it is.
So I'm curious --the 206 you fly -- is it flyinside or cowansim? I have both and have to say the flyinside is far more challenging. The cowansim 206 will let you abuse it, but not the flyinside. You WILL experience engine or gear failure, or VRS, or blade stall etc with flyinside. I love the 500 for how it feels but in one of my videos I do detail how the limitations of the machine are not well modeled.
@@CaptainHelisim just the cowansim one. i only fly it when i want to practice map reading/following, other than that i avoid it. I've found that theres no sweet spot where you can basicly have the helicopter perfectly balanced during cruise flight and it feels like its hard coded to just randomly change the aircraft pitch or roll every so often to try to simulate a semi rigid rotor system. I'll have to look into the flyinside one as i havent heard of that dev before. ( i don't keep up to date with everything on msfs )
Great video. New sub. I love VR flight sims. Really want a collective but the one's I've seen are expensive.
I'm publishing a build series on a DIY collective -- only about $200!
@@CaptainHelisim Awesome! Is it on your channel?
Yes sir! Part 3 dropping tomorrow: www.youtube.com/@CaptainHelisim/playlists
@@CaptainHelisim Great thank you. Happy flying!
Shea Stadium, never heard anyone call it Mets Stadium. Also, disappointed to see you couldn't land on those addon buildings. That's why i've avoided purchasing Manhattan/NYC addons. I can land on any photogrammetry building or object in NYC including where i live, lol.
You are correct -- Shea Stadium. I've been out of NYC long enough evidently I've forgotten.
And yes, I used to be able to land on the former Pan Am building with the stock scenery (though it was quite rough) and with the add on I lost that ability which is very disappointing.
Sensacional.
Im 22 hours into my PPL(H) licence. Straight flight no problem but as you say hovering takes a little time to master, along with shooting approaches. I don’t think a lot of things transfer across. You become a better sim pilot after flying IRL but not so much the other way round
Interesting. I wonder if flightsim will ever achieve realism parity.
My problem with simulator heli flying is, especially during landings, that I have a very hard time distinguishing whether the helicopter pitches up or down, or moves up or down. And that always throws me and botches up my landings.
Yes I know what you mean. I wonder if that's where a motion rig bridges the perceptability gap. Are you using VR? Even with VR it's still hard to parse nose up from ascent. And this is perhaps why most helicopter landings seem to use a "glide slope" of sorts -- you pick your landing spot and descend to it in stabilized fashion specifically to avoid cavorting back and forth trying to judge what's actually happening i.e., altitude vs attitude.
@CaptainHelisim ... no, I haven't been able to afford vr yet...lol But that thing with establishing a glideslope sounds like it's worth trying, thanks !
My advice for what it is worth.... put whatever money you have into VR. It seems exoensive but until you first 'sit' in a cockpit and actually feel like you are there, you have no idea how it will change your world.
If you are predominantly a heli flyer.... I couldnt recommend it more highly.
Might make it a bit easier depending on if it was a motion sim.
If not it could make it harder for the body to understand what is happening.
Agreed. I'm trying to look into the realm of motion platforms this year and assess how much the motion aspect contributes. As I mentioned, I think it's almost impossible to understand chopper flight without VR so that aspect is critical. But how much does motion contribute? Still quantifying that...
Id like to get into MSFS helicopter stuff, but there doesnt seem to be a good method of using the actual trim helicopters come with. Maybe Im missing something...
How do you mean @utley ? I used to use trim a lot when I had springs in my joystick but it never felt "natural". Releasing the trim or resetting it was always awkward because of the joystick centering problem. I can't say for sure how it works with real helicopters but I just find that they are too sensitive to have sudden abrupt control changes created by trim so I almost never use it after taking the joystick springs out. Is that awkward behavior what you mean?
@@CaptainHelisim i mean theres no trim button to map in MSFS that keeps the stick in the spot you trimmed it at. In helicopters its basically a magnetic brake that holds the stick in place when you press the trim button, and trim release releases the magnetic brake. some helicopters have a trim system like a winged airframe would, but they just move the joystick to a certain spot. You literally have to wrestle the stick the whole flight that Ive seen in MSFS, and its quite tiresome...shouldnt be that way. Thats why the trim system exists in helicopters, to prevent that.
@@utley You mean like in DCS's Huey which has a trim set and release? I'm not sure if MSFS has that though to be honest the DCS version is what I always felt was kind of awkward. If you release the trim and the controls are not set exactly where the trim says it needs to be, you get a sudden abrupt change in control inputs which I think in real life would probably result in catastrophic failure.
I do have the ability to adjust trim in MSFS gradually where I can correct for particular bias in one direction or another; I don't find that as offensive but since taking the joystick springs out and just having a floppy stick I find more than enough control capability without back pressure to pilot as is without trim adjustments at all.
One more note -- I just purchased the HPG145 and haven't really gone through all the documentation yet but I did notice there's substantial description of trim "set and release" functions. It's possible they provided the missing function you're describing in the model itself.
@@CaptainHelisim exactly like the DCS Huey. The Mi8/24 has a trim system similar to fixed wing. I have been looking for those specific trim functions in MSFS, and the ones Ive found were less than ideal if that. It bugs the hell out of me.
I just switched to a different setup a few weeks ago Im not really able to put a stick in with an extension, I cant use a springless setup if I fly both fixed wing or rotary.
Ive a few helicopters in MSFS that I really would love to fly right now...I have the Cowan Sims Bell 222, 500E and a couple other that I cant think of at the moment where I cant find any appropriate trimming function to map my controls to.
@@utley I'm flying right now to record some copy for the next video. Under Flight Control Surfaces => Control Trimming Surfaces, I have mapped:
Rudder Trim Right
Rudder Trim Left
Increase Rotor Longitudinal Trim
Increase Rotor Lateral Trim
Decrease Rotor Longitudinal Trim
Decrease Rotor Lateral Trim
Have you tried any of those?
flying a game is nothing like fling the real thing.
Based on my one intro flight I estimate about 60-70%