Interesting and nicely presented by Geshe Tashi. As a former NkT ordained practitioner I think Kelsang Gyatsos meaning in his talk was not to reject Vinaya . his books frequently tell of importance of a balance of Hinayana Mahayana & Vajrayana practice and Lamrim is their main practice . I think KG has made an attempt to condense the complex vows of a novice ( getsulpa) monk ( not Gelong - fully ordained ) into a simpler form more practical for modern western world. His intention was to create teaching monks to so spread dharma and give a blessing ( seeing anyone wearing robes of. Buddhist monk is a blessing and cause of liberation as mentioned in basic Buddhist refuge vows ) so my point is that KGs words are being taken out of context here. It’s just a matter of emphasis. Still practicing pure pratimoksha code of conduct but in a simpler more practical form. But I do have my doubts if this experiment of condensing traditional monks vows into something very basic has proven to be a good idea or not. Anyway full respect to Geshe Tashi for giving a beautiful dharma talk generally and addressing the concerns of former nkt nun with care and kindness. 🙏🏼
Thank you for clarifying the discomfort we felt in the NKT during around 2005-08. It sounded blasphemous when teachers would dismiss foundational teachings of the Buddha, and of course it is dangerous when moral boundaries are discarded in guiding students.
@Michael-James. I listened to this video several times but can't find anything where Geshe la claims to have a ordination based on lamrim. To me, Geshe is quoting from Je Tsongkhapa's lamrim which Kelsang Gyatso misunderstood / misinterpreted regarding Tharavede and Mahayana. Geshe la and Je Tsongkhapa say Mahayana practitioners can not / should not reject or abandon Tharavede vows just by saying we are Mahayana practitioners. Either you genuinely misunderstood Geshe la's explanation or you are trying to misunderstand it and sell your product (The Music of Life) here.
+Free Tibet No, I have been asked by anti-NKT peeps to be "upfront and honest" that I am no longer a practitioner of the NKT. (I received mistreatment in both traditions by crazy folk in leadership positions, which is why I no longer practice Tibetan Buddhism.) There is a lot of suspicion between people at the outset of these discussions, so I wanted to let you know where I stand. (It's kind of funny that you had this point to make. In my experience with anti-NKT peeps online, my being an ex-NKT follower means that I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.) By the way, I have been doing "The Music of Life" for 17 years now and I have never accepted one penny for it, so I don't think saying that I am selling something is fair, do you? Anyways, ad hominem attacks seem to be the best that anti-NKT peeps can offer, so I'm not surprised that this years-long one-sided discussion hasn't progressed very far... It's really too bad, because I honestly think that this could be the basis of full-ordination for women in Tibetan Buddhism (e.g., Gen-la Dekyong and Gen-la Kunsang as heads of the NKT), if both sides ever grew up enough to listen to each other and (gasp) be inspired by each other. Can no one be innovative(+7) in Tibetan Buddhism, even if it is based on historical precedents in the Buddhist tradition (+1)? (Take a look at "The Music of Life" to learn what those #'s mean.) "I listened to this video several times but can't find anything where Geshe la claims to have a ordination based on lamrim." Are you refering to Geshe Tashi or to Geshe Kelsang? The latter certainly says this in The Ordination Handbook which Geshe Tashi quotes (albeit he doesn't finish the sentence, which to me changes its meaning). The ordination essay that I wrote explains why Geshe Kelsang claims this, with direct quotes. I don't think anti-NKT people have bothered to try to understand where Geshe Kelsang is coming from. Besides, even Lord Jigten Sumgon advocated the validity of a 10-vow ordination in his Gongchig. "A Festival of Attainments" explains why he said this and provides direct quotes. Enjoy!
*Also Search: NKT Cult.*
Thank kindly Geshe Tashi la for clearing this in very kind words.
thank you
Interesting and nicely presented by Geshe Tashi. As a former NkT ordained practitioner I think Kelsang Gyatsos meaning in his talk was not to reject Vinaya . his books frequently tell of importance of a balance of Hinayana Mahayana & Vajrayana practice and Lamrim is their main practice . I think KG has made an attempt to condense the complex vows of a novice ( getsulpa) monk ( not Gelong - fully ordained ) into a simpler form more practical for modern western world. His intention was to create teaching monks to so spread dharma and give a blessing ( seeing anyone wearing robes of. Buddhist monk is a blessing and cause of liberation as mentioned in basic Buddhist refuge vows ) so my point is that KGs words are being taken out of context here. It’s just a matter of emphasis. Still practicing pure pratimoksha code of conduct but in a simpler more practical form. But I do have my doubts if this experiment of condensing traditional monks vows into something very basic has proven to be a good idea or not. Anyway full respect to Geshe Tashi for giving a beautiful dharma talk generally and addressing the concerns of former nkt nun with care and kindness. 🙏🏼
*Also Search; "Recovery From The New Kadampa Tradition, A Resource Center".* .
Thank you for clarifying the discomfort we felt in the NKT during around 2005-08. It sounded blasphemous when teachers would dismiss foundational teachings of the Buddha, and of course it is dangerous when moral boundaries are discarded in guiding students.
*Also Search; Exposing The New Kadampa Tradition, Face book group.* .
*Search; "Dr Michelle Haslam's Psychological Report On The NKT".* .
It is all skillful means by the buddhas to separate the spiritual materialists from the yogis..
@Michael-James. I listened to this video several times but can't find anything where Geshe la claims to have a ordination based on lamrim. To me, Geshe is quoting from Je Tsongkhapa's lamrim which Kelsang Gyatso misunderstood / misinterpreted regarding Tharavede and Mahayana. Geshe la and Je Tsongkhapa say Mahayana practitioners can not / should not reject or abandon Tharavede vows just by saying we are Mahayana practitioners. Either you genuinely misunderstood Geshe la's explanation or you are trying to misunderstand it and sell your product (The Music of Life) here.
+Free Tibet No, I have been asked by anti-NKT peeps to be "upfront and honest" that I am no longer a practitioner of the NKT. (I received mistreatment in both traditions by crazy folk in leadership positions, which is why I no longer practice Tibetan Buddhism.) There is a lot of suspicion between people at the outset of these discussions, so I wanted to let you know where I stand. (It's kind of funny that you had this point to make. In my experience with anti-NKT peeps online, my being an ex-NKT follower means that I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.) By the way, I have been doing "The Music of Life" for 17 years now and I have never accepted one penny for it, so I don't think saying that I am selling something is fair, do you? Anyways, ad hominem attacks seem to be the best that anti-NKT peeps can offer, so I'm not surprised that this years-long one-sided discussion hasn't progressed very far... It's really too bad, because I honestly think that this could be the basis of full-ordination for women in Tibetan Buddhism (e.g., Gen-la Dekyong and Gen-la Kunsang as heads of the NKT), if both sides ever grew up enough to listen to each other and (gasp) be inspired by each other. Can no one be innovative(+7) in Tibetan Buddhism, even if it is based on historical precedents in the Buddhist tradition (+1)? (Take a look at "The Music of Life" to learn what those #'s mean.)
"I listened to this video several times but can't find anything where Geshe la claims to have a ordination based on lamrim." Are you refering to Geshe Tashi or to Geshe Kelsang? The latter certainly says this in The Ordination Handbook which Geshe Tashi quotes (albeit he doesn't finish the sentence, which to me changes its meaning). The ordination essay that I wrote explains why Geshe Kelsang claims this, with direct quotes. I don't think anti-NKT people have bothered to try to understand where Geshe Kelsang is coming from. Besides, even Lord Jigten Sumgon advocated the validity of a 10-vow ordination in his Gongchig. "A Festival of Attainments" explains why he said this and provides direct quotes. Enjoy!
So is she a nun or not ? It looks like the video ends with his explanation incomplete. Is there a second part ?
Yes, there is.