Casio's Flawed Piano Action: Update PX-S3000 PX-S1000
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- There were a few people who weren't sure I was telling the truth about the black and white keys on the Casio PX-S3000 being different weights. Can't blame them, honestly, it's crazy that it made it past the prototype stage like this, as it is nearly unplayable for certain kinds of music. So I offered concrete proof in this video, and for those wondering about the equipment used in the video, here is the exact device.
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If you like music, you might want to check out my second channel "Milan Recording Studios". Feel free to subscribe and hit the bell icon if you want to!
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👍👍👍👍👍👍50 years of playing classical piano ... I’m 100% percent in agreement with your methodology and conclusions ... Please keep up the good work.
@@slapmyfunkybass I don't think you need to take his comments as "only classical" but rather "specifically classical" so he is not excluding all else, he just finds that with classical music in particular this would be an issue for him. I wouldn't take it as a dis on any other music, he's not even comparing styles of music. And there is the personal element in there too. In that, for him, he had issues with phrasing in classical pieces on this instrument, because of the difference in key weights. That is where it all ends as far as the info he's imparting and his criticism of the tool. Nothing else needs be inferred or arrived at.
S Tahboub I completely agree with you. James is mainly a classical pianist. And based on the the very subtle nuances of touch required for classical pieces, he simply noticed this. I don’t feel he was singling out classical pianists as the only people who this would be a critical issue to.
Me too
Never buy this piano!!!!!
My arm is very sick!!!!!!
I”m a amatua piano womon.
But i have a big big problem during playing this piano
Hello Mattmanutube :)
I would very much appreciate your advice. Can you help me? I want to buy a digital piano with very similar action as a nice acoustic piano. Do you know any such digital pianos? I don't need anything fancy, just a realistic piano sound and good action, similar to a nice acoustic piano.
Concept: a piece composed explicitly for the Casio PX-S3000, that takes advantage of this flaw
Chop sticks?
Chopin Op. 10 No. 5 etude in Gb major, known as the "black keys" etude as the right hand plays exclusively on black keys with only one exception.
James, you have formed this channel so well keep it up and thanks for honest reviews❤️
Not sure what skeptics are denying!
The dude stated earlier and now supports it with actual weights to prove what he experienced.
It is kind of surprising how a venerable maker like Casio denies the problem!
And, Casio's response even includes the admission that some sacrifice is made in portable electronic pianos. So, they know it's there, they just don't like being exposed.
I was randomly tinkering around on my student's new Casio and was startled by the loudness of the black keys. This makes a lot of sense now. You'd need a crazy amount of control in order to play at roughly equivalent volume.
It's great to see someone review the playability of these instruments. Not just the bells and whistles.
Excellent video, I especially love how objective, calm, and transparent you are when giving feedback -- be it about instruments or comments in this section. Cheers!
Here is my experience with the PSX-1000.
I bought it in early february (lots of positive reviews, quite affordable, compact, it felt perfect for me to start learning classical piano).
I was (and still am..) a TOTAL beginner, but when I started playing with it, I INSTANTLY felt that the black keys were lighter..!!
I didn't even know black keys were supposed to feel the same way as white keys, I figured they were smaller so it was normal...
So here is my question : could you please explain to me how the f*** is it that there are dozens of reviews on youtube of this piano, and NOBODY tells ANYTHING about this black keys weighting problem...????
This feels almost like being robbed.
The positive side of this story is that we actually now have a rigorous way to assess which channels on youtube provide bullshit reviews and which don't.
Thank you for your honest video.
Prob becuz most of the review come from ppl trying to sell and and something they just try it not long enough to recognize the problem. I also got frustrated with some of the very basic problem but took too long to find an answer either on youtube or google.
If we had more honest reviewers,then we believe that companies would be forced to put out better quality products . Bravo for James😊😊😊😊
Damn! I was about to buy this piano. Even tho I'm a begginer I'd still rather play on a piano that doesn't has that flaw.
ive seen like 21 of these videos, by you, and i find it amazing that you, someone who was able to get the keyboard, play it, find a flaw and share it, had to "argue" the point. Amazing
I want to test the keys on my next piano using this method, but I can’t afford the fancy weight thing. However, as a duck keeper, I have learnt that newly born ducklings weigh about 40 grams and increase to 100 grams during the first week. So if I visit a piano showroom with a shoebox full of ducklings each day for a week, I should be able to calibrate any difference between the black keys and the white. Do you see any problem with my method?
None!
See also: czcams.com/video/_lu5_5Od7WY/video.html
If a the key weighs more than the duck, is it a witch?
You can buy that adjustable key weight on eBay for $35. Surely ducklings cost more than that.
@@b9y Beat me to it! 😂
The very reason Casio can't admit the truth is that this product got into production and that they can't easily fix the issue. It's neither the first nor the last company to act this way in a similar situation (cough cough Apple cough cough).
That action must feel maddening, like playing two different keyboards in one.
If you are precise with your dynamics, then the black keys must sound slightly louder.
@@LeNoLi. if they don't have a velocity curve you are correct it might depend on how many velocity levels the piano is sampled in
This really opens a can of worms for some reviewers. Another popular reviewer says, "The piano action is just phenomenal." Of course he sells this piano on his website. Can we really trust him? Maybe he just couldn't tell the difference, or maybe he just didn't tell. My new piano review hero is you James. For such a young guy, you have just won the respect of many of us. Stay true and call it the way you see it. I'm happy I discovered your channel.
Thank you.
A real piano key action weighs a lot, needs space in the enclosure, and needs to be regulated like a normal acoustic piano. I have an MP11SE, it is double the weight of a stage piano a solo artist might take to gigs.
Digital piano makers design a keyboard that tries to reproduce the feel of a real piano action but has to do that within what I now think are quite severe constraints of half the weight, cheap to make, feel almost like a real piano action, stable enough to avoid tuning. I think that's a hard engineering problem.
The issue we have is the way the marketing misleads. So, users that want to become better piano players need reviewers to evaluate the keyboard action and communicate that to the potential buyers in their audience. I would have liked to know the range of exam grades I could take before having to get a better design. I was told my Yamaha CLP535 would be good enough to get me to grade 6. I found it limiting/difficult when doing Grade 4 pieces and exercises. But I intend to do Grade 8 eventually, so it made sense to upgrade when I did in the interests of developing good technique and not having to undo learning. If my goal was Grade 5 I would have stuck with the CLP535 and accept the shortcomings as a coat effective design compromise.
When I bought the MP11SE, I tried lots of good stage pianos and a few upright acoustics. I knew what I wanted by then. Research into what to look for and trying keyboards before buying is critical ... in addition to research through forensic reviews such as yours
You're absolutely right. I've had the chance to try out the MP11 years ago...IMHO it's in a class of its own. Both in sound and quality.I wonder how the MP7SE compares to it.
Emma,We believe that the Kawai mp11se has the best piano key action on the market and the sound is quite nice. We believe that you made a "grand" choice. Keep on sharing your beautiful gift with the world and never cease to share your gift from from our Great Creator to you to all who you will Bless. 😊😊😊😊
Well presented and argued. If this was a court case, you would have won the case for your client. I tested the S1000. I would have bought one but I just could not get around the feel that I had with the keys. Great job. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for taking the time to professionally and objectively discuss your comments about this instrument. This was very informative.
I commented on your previous video, that a friend improved his sound by stepping up to the Privia. It has occurred to me that he is coming from a synth background. Thank you- I have learned a valuable lesson about the keybeds on digital boards VS “real” acoustic pianos.
I love your reviews and your honesty. I like that you are keeping your channel a friendly one as social media can be so cruel. Keep up the excellent work... now I'll go practice my scales from your scale videos.
As a guitarist with interest in playing keyboards I have really enjoyed your channel, your playing talent and your willingness to share your knowledge is appreciated.
I had the px-s1000 for a while and agree to what you are saying. I’m very much a beginner player and my biggest problem with this action was how heavy it got between the black keys near the fall board. The good thing with this piano is how compact it is and this makes it great for moving it around. But I got rid of it and bought a Yamaha p-5151 and could not be happier with it :)
Good for you, James! I hope people listen to what you’ve said here all the way through. You couldn’t have put it more diplomatically. Very fair critique/explanation. As a technician who lives this stuff day in and day out, I listen to your. Ideas from a different perspective. And I am impressed you learned so much in such a short time. I think you’re videos have great value shedding light on all things keyboard. Best of luck.
Loved to see your cientific way to prove your feel. Really. And I would like to see similar test on previous line of Privia keyboards, specially the x60 (160, 360, 560). They are cheap and easy to find in Brazil. Thanks for the wonderful job you are making. As a beginner, you helped me to avoid the mistake to buy a digital piano that would make my evolution harder - without noticing the key differences!
I was about to go out and buy a PX-S1000, should I reconsider?
James - you are doing a great, honest, and objective job on your channel. Keep up the good work.
Excellent demonstration, thanks
So, so interesting, James. Bravo! You proved your point scientifically, and without rancour. You have built a terrific channel here, and your comment section is always a pleasure to read - like-minded individuals sharing their love for, and interest in, music; and specifically keyboards. Keep doing what you're doing.
James,
Way to go, You made a very important point .
Have you contacted Casio about the problem, perhaps they are unaware of it.
They may appreciate knowing.
Cheers,
Rik Spector
It's A CASIO. It's not a professional class instrument. I don't think Casio cares. Maybe if this was a $5K to $10K Kawaii, they would care.
@@WarrenPostmathey do make some professional stage pianos. I expect they would care.
Warren Postma I disagree with your assessment of Casio not caring about the products they produce. Casio, generally, has always produced decent quality products. In recent years they are showing real intent to compete favorably with the mainstream professional instrument providers. They definitely want a piece of the pie in the professional products category. But, this discrepancy in the black to white key weighting definitely is an unfortunate oversight, IMO.
Warren Postma, I gig a Casio PX 560 & the action is excellent , I believe they have taken a backward step with this obsession with producing the slimmest Digital Piano ,as the shorter keys have obviously compromised on the fulcrum point. I have also found the PX-S 3000/1000 difficult to press the notes, compared to earlier Privias, when I 'slide' my hand in towards the fulcrum point . A great shame as the sound chip is a definite improvement !
Frederick Spector If Casio is unaware of this, they better stop building keyboards straight away.
Can you make such an experiment for some other piano, Yamaha or whatever?
Yes that is absolutely important James. And I did see your previous Review and never questioned your judgment. I could even hear the discrepancy in the timing of the white and black keys and I knew myself that this was an issue right away. So don’t fret about criticisms as they are wrong and you are right. Thanks for all your instructive and comprehensive reviews!
I really appreciate your review because no one mentioned anything about this, absolutely no one. I just started leaning piano and unfortunately I bought a Casio, I didn't know how a true piano should feel like but now I know, thank very much.
I'm just some rock and roller on a budget. But I greatly appreciate the analysis of the action on this keyboard. I've recently purchased two very very inexpensive midi controllers that I'm thinking about returning. It's good to know exactly where the line is in each of these budget products. Please review more
Whether it's pianos or microphones or whatever else, I'm always surprised when companies release products that have issues that they had to have known about through a simple QA process but decide to release them anyhow.
Thank you for your input and honest review Mr. Pogorelic
Any time!
Well found, continue your work to ensure keyboard players acquire exactly what they need for all genres of music.
I was literally buying this piano and than I saw your video.... damn this piano is soooo beautiful...
Luckily, there's plenty of good competition to Casio in this segment.
@@zwz.zdenek whats your recommendation for this price range?
already ordered it lol and saw this video
Thanks James. That's a major flaw. I was wondering why the price was too good to be true. And furthermore, if anyone would know anything about pianos, it's this man.
This was part of Casio's collaboration with The Black Keys for a signature seriea. They insisted that the Black Keys
Do you think you may have just got a lemon? If not I hope Casio takes notice and solves it. Not good for company's reputation, and just 'cause it's inexpensive, doesn't mean it has to be cheap.
Just tried mine using two AA batteries standing up. He's not wrong. I'll be sending mine back if I can
Excellent video, scientific approach to proving your point. Well done!
Thanks for bringing this to light in an empirical way. It would be interesting to use graduated weights to trigger the keys while monitoring the MIDI key velocities...
awesome technical test to prove a flaw that will help buyers make a smarter purchase choice. Appreciated.
Thanks for your reviews and honest opinion. I can imagine if somebody spends approx. $1000. cdn. and thought that they may have made a mistake, they may get defensive. I noticed in your video at the NAMM show when the rep was doing the demo, he mentioned that the action was controlled with a combination of hardware and software, so there may be a fix for this with a software/firmware update. Thanks and looking forward to good honest reviews.
Has Casio attempted to address this issue at all? Given the length of time this instrument has been on the market I would expect some sort of response or are they just waiting for the next model rease to ..hopefully..address?
as a beginner , should i choose yamaha p125 or FP 60 or this?? , plz.
I would choose a Yamaha P125 or a Kawai es110.
ThePianoforever thz . i will go for it sir,
i always look forward to the high quality content of your channel.
I don't often post comments on youtube, but I see a case here where you deserve support for your conclusions.
1st and above all, you nailed it with the weighting method... Regardless the fact any digital piano is a compromise, the fact you noticed the issue on this model and not on other brands and models at the same price tag, definitely tells something, and the weights more than prove this point.
2nd, it might be true that muscle memory of a player may not be the same as of another, so the amount that you felt the issue might be less to other people, but it might be more too. The point being that, not being able to satisfy everyone's perceptions or muscle memory, one as a manufacturer must try to level up to some standard, and the ultimate standard is to try to mimic an acoustic piano, so your point on using the weights is flawless.
It would be fair though to Casio and to yourself as a commenter, if you can do the same weighing trial to other digital pianos of the same price tag as this one, to prove to the audiences and to yourself the weights are indeed remarkably different on this one in comparison to the others...
I think this would settle the argument altogether.
3rd and final... Casio is a major contender... they're not some nobody that could claim they weren't able to level up to the standards of their competitors, for products they're offering to the same niche, for whatever reason.
So, one must come to the conclusion they made the design choices they did to make this instrument remarkably more compact than others... but when they do so, (if) all other things being equal, you'd really get a leverage... but if one chose to compromise the playability just to make it smaller and want to market the product at the same price tag, and pretend all other things are equal, when they aren't in fact, then they're trying to fool their customers.
Now, taking from your next video where you show the innards of the Casio action on this keyboard, one can see there hasn't been so much of an effort (if any) to compensate the ill effects of the shorter lever, apart from doing the obvious of just making the weight lighter (which is n approach that could be excused if, either this keyboard would be cheaper than the competition, or if the competition, all had the same irks, which doesn't seem to be the case.
I was researching on px s3000 vs CDP 350 when I found this great video. For an absolute beginner would you recommend a CDP 350 instead? I want 88 keys and the pitch bend wheel with great sound quality and in the budget which CDP 350/PX S3000 seems to be (or were). For their price and features would you ignore such flaws? Kindly suggest. Thank You :))
Why am I watching this 3 AM in the morning?
I just read your comment and looked at the clock 3:04 AM hahaha
Because there's 13 grams difference between playing the black versus white keys.
James, I am an organist and am starting to enjoy your videos more and more. All of a sudden you've become grown up. You are logically defending what you know to be true and even showing us why. Good job. The pipe organ is quite the machine, as you know well. The room becomes the sounding board and the responsibilities- especially to Bach can overwhelm. I am impressed by the way you get it regarding acoustic and digital. Being classically trained is a tremendous blessing, but it can be very painful when people don't understand the fine tuning of the brain that results. The way that you are kind to all musicians is going to keep you relevant.
When it comes to key velocity, this flaw will make all the black keys to sound louder. Wich is something you definitely don't want.
Well done. Gravity has no brand bias. Agree with some of the other comments- would be interested in Casio's response. This could be a manufacturing glitch that took someone with a highly developed touch to notice. Glad to see your note about some of the other brands you also tested.
I played on a rickety-ass piano once that had a section where the keys were just... Softer. The row of keys was perfectly level but that softness made it feel like they dipped into a well, it was so weird. This thing must be so uncomfortable to play on.
Amazing to see Casio advertising on these videos.
This might reduce the repertoire to Chopin's Black key etude.
fliteshare Trying to play that Etude with light keys would lose a lot of its touch.
Thanks for giving an honest and evidence-based review. Fortunately, the sales rep at my local store was well-informed and told me that the keys of this casio are lighter. While thinking about it, came across your video which triangulated with her advice. Really appreciate 🙏. Thank you.
This could be a good test vehicle for classical pianists, as in "The Princess and the Pea" fairytale. Only those who immediately notice the issue and complain about it bitterly, will be proven as "real" pianists.
Marianne Oelund it’s not that hard to notice
Thank you, very useful information. Unfortunately I already bought the Casio PX-S1000 a year ago, fortunately I have not played it almost at all, because I did not have the time to do that.
I been searching for a new stage piano for two years I've decided on a Yamaha before I purchase I will test the keys with a weight. Thank you
Excellent explanation, thank you for be so thorough. I haven't seen anyway apply such an excellent demonstration for helping people to understand. Thank you kindly.
Glad it was helpful!
Great channel Homie, for someone your age you do a really great job with your videos! Thanks again
Nearly bought one of these! Thank you for the warming. 🙂👍🏼
You don't have anything to prove James. Always an informed, detailed and professional review.
Again, thanks for this info. You did the right thing pointing the flaw out, and not in a derogatory way. Look forward to your reviews...I really want to know what you think of the new Roland RD-88, it's available this month.
I believed you when you made your original claim. I was just wondering if that was an error specific you your unit or if this would be apparent throughout the the entire line. That's a big oversight if that's the case. Thanks for giving me a heads up, I was looking at this for Christmas. I think I'll look elsewhere.
BUJU2007 based on James’ demonstration on several keys, and not just a couple. It is most likely to be an across the board issue with the PX-S line of keyboards in general.
Yes I can verify that my s3000 has the same issue with the black keys weighted lighter than the white keys. However I never noticed the difference until it was pointed out. I still enjoy playing it. Hopefully there will be a fix?!?
Very interesting. I picked up a 3000 a couple of months ago and immediately noticed inconsistent weighting around the e0 region (much lighter compared to the rest of the keys). Got in touch with Casio and sent a few pics (taped penny coins into a stack as didn’t even know these weights existed) to show the issue. I know it’s not the same issue but the said I should return. Which I didn’t - too much trouble to transport an 88 not knowing if I’d get the same again and tbh, decided I could live with it. Interesting to know if any other owners have the same thing going on?
Already having issues with my keys. The C#3 has lost its touch responsiveness. So even when I play it softly, it sounds at maximum volume. E5 sounds very clicky
Do you think this was a trade-off made because the keys were shorter? Since the pivot is shorter the force it takes to move the key increases as you move closer to the top of the keyboard.
As an older person just beginning , would this be a detriment ? Or conversely could it be a positive for a complete newbie in any way? I’m assuming learning from go on my psx1000 that it won’t matter all that much … only if ( and I seriously doubt this in my case) if I go on and become “good” (relatively anyways) and I decide to play on an acoustic / or buy one , or upgrade to a higher end digital that’s more accurate , that it may be a problem….? But just wanted to ask in case I’m missing something as I know more or less nothing about piano.
If you already own it then you could start to learn the basics with it, but that is where I would stop.
Which forums would you say are the most useful/civil out there? Thanks
I am so happy that I didn't think of doing this weight-test with all my keyboards in the past, because my OCD would mean that I am the sort of person who would have kept a 'Keyboard-Weight ledger', and I wouldn't stop there. I would have spent weeks, after first comparing each keyboard's strike-speed by examining my auto-quantise rate would then have started honing the key-weight with slivers of brass and spring-tension, to find MY optimum mother-keyboard. Thank you once again for causing me to pause for thought. These videos are certainly 'Biscuit-Worthy'.
Really appreciate the additional info. Please keep up the good work.
I won’t even think about purchasing a new piano or keyboard unless it gets your stamp of approval. Good looking out.
You nailed it, I'm going to test my Kawai CA also :)
Thank you!! I was looking at this model earlier last month and wasn’t aware of this issue. I appreciate you informing about it!! 👍
hi, i was considering the Casio CDP S100 as a complementary keyboard..I have a 2 cents question do you all things this model will suffer from the same issue ?
Hey, nice reviews!
Would you know if casio privia px 560m has this issue? Can you say a little bit about your opnion from this digital piano if you do know it.
I am looking for a opnion about the keys itself, you are the only one reviewer that I saw pointing this aspect. And congratulations for your work.
Please , do the same test for other casio digital pianos as well,such as Casio cdp s100. Because you mentioned about casio products in general.
Thankyou James , I really appreciate your effort and I like your content.
I really appreciate this video, because you very capably demonstrated that facts backed by data matter; shade for the sake of shade, does not. Please keep up the great work on your channel. I watch and enjoy every video. By the way, as a classically trained pianist, that action would drive me nuts.
I wanted to buy a piano like Casio px s1000 or px s3000, but right now I don't know what to do. She needs build muscle memory and I find this defect very bad if you are learning. I'd be grateful if someone could recommend me some similar pianos.
Thanks!
i really started to like ur videos. at first i genuinely needed advice because i am a phd student and poor so i wanted to make most of my 1200-1300 cad budget so i needed to hear comparisons of pros but now it became a thing i just open and watch them even if i dont understand or will never be able to afford the stuff u feature
SCIENCE!! :) Like I said last time, this weight disparity would be a deal breaker for me. I don't buy that only classical pianists would notice that while playing in Ab, Eb, D or A with the black notes often standing out more than intended. Either way, people shouldn't get all out of joint over stuff like that. It's good to know about an off-putting disparity like this BEFORE buying the instrument ourselves and running into it.
I own a px3000 and have the problem. I thought it was me with a.new keyboard. A lighter touch setting
helps hide the difficulty on playing. I still prefer Casio px3000 over Yamaha graded standard.
which the best keyboard under 2000 in your opinion except Kawai VPC that doesn t have pitch bend?
If I had a skill level above intermediate, I might notice this on my digital piano. Either way, I'm nowhere near that level of discernment. My Casio CDP 220R, however does allow for creating mood very well for someone at my level. That said, it's good to be aware of this and valuable info down the road when deciding to buy a new digital piano.
Let’s hope Casio Watch this video and other reviewers take note and also check the keyboard action out properly in the future
Craig Simmons Casio Watch 😂
I am a starter searching a piano, I had no idea about this weight issue. Thank you!
I am learning more and more about pianos from you than any other place on the internet. I don't even own a piano but maybe one day.............. Right now I just have my digital keyboard. What blew me away is that you are only 19 and act much more mature and knowledgeable than those who have 25+ years experience with pianos both as technicians and players.
Really curious if it's the same hammer action as the one on the Casio CDP S350... I'll go to check in the shop when it will be safe.
I think it`s not, tested it(not with gram weights) in a store, just my own feeling. The black keys felt more resistend on the cdp s.
The appliance of science
Very wise for a 19 year old. I appreciate your demos and your classical playing is obviously well versed and outstanding. As for the arguers and those who must bicker... I would hazard a guess that it is reflective of a closed or hardened mind and if the mind really were a garden, only weeds tend to grow in soil with that structure. lol :)
Does anyone know if the Casio CDP s350 has this same problem?
A great video.
You have proved that you are the only honest, independent digital piano reviewer on CZcams. I have subscribed and will listen to your opinions intently. You’ve prevented me buying this piano, and being annoyed by its action.
I’ve seen many positive reviews of it, and these reviewers will no longer be followed by me.
Thanks for a great video. Keep up the great work.
I’d love to see you compare 88 key weighted midi controllers. I’m considering using iPad,or a MacBook as a live midi sound source.
Great video, thank you for taking the time to prove this thought, but I am curious if this same test would be the same for other digital keyboards?? P125 or FP30?
What do you think of the YamahaYDP 164 action? GH3 I believe. In terms classical of music and phrasing/dynamic control.
James,is it true that the Kawai mp11se has more algorithms than the Kawai mp7se ? When we abeed the kawai mp11se vs the Kawai mp7se vs the Kawai es8 with headphones, the mp11se sounded best,next the Kawai es8,then the Kawai mp7se. What is review on this ? Thankyou Yeshua Bless you 😊😊😊😊
So, is this adjustable in any way. i.e. could it be fixed? (not that you should have to fix a new keyboard but it would be nice if it was adjustable/fixable)?
YOU DID A GREAT JOB MAN :)
Congratulations from Brazil ;)
Considering the black keys are shorter and therefore shorter levers, wouldn't that mean they're technically *even more lighter*?
This is already accounted for in the measuring.
was about to get the PX-S3000 until I saw this...
Thank you. I wish more keyboard reviewers would do these simple measurements. You can’t judge by them completely but at least they are reasonably objective.