How Can Mormons Address Doubts About The LDS Church History? Pt.2 Historians vs History
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- čas přidán 1. 07. 2024
- In today's episode, we dive into "Faith Crisis 2: Behind Closed Doors." If you enjoyed the first book or haven't seen it yet, I highly recommend checking it out. This follow-up is just as faith-promoting and offers vital context to the church historians who compiled church history
We'll explore questions like, "If the church didn't lie about its history, what actually happened?" This episode is packed with insights and quotes from the book that will enhance your understanding.
We'll discuss Leonard Arrington's influence, his unique approach to church history, and why some sources were traditionally ignored. We'll also tackle the misconception that church history and its leaders were flawless, emphasizing the importance of supporting prophetic declarations and revelations.
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#ldspodcast #lds #mormon #mormons #latterdaysaints #churchofchrist #churchofjesuschrist #church #history #usa #america #religion #religious #belief #gospel #faith #josephsmith #review #bookreview #bookofmormon #prophet #scripture #holyghost #jesus #jesuschrist #god #churchhistory
People fell away because people didnt like him? People fell away because he married their wives, he married a 14 yo. Those are verified facts and there is no excuse for that. A good man does not do that. D&C 132 did not give him all rights to marry kids and already married women. There is absolutely and definitely 0 excuse for that behavior.
Getting sealed and consummating are not synonymous.
People fall away because they do not keep their testimony strong. More people in his day stayed true despite going through it.
And when sealing to other people’s wives the husbands had to agree to it.
Again, if those who experienced that age stayed true at greater rates, and the church he built up did not disintegrate, then you should ask, “why?”
@@KingsIPodcast Its not all about sex. Imagine going on a mission and coming back to your wife and finding a guy got sealed to her and is now claiming her for eternity. I would be pretty upset as well. There are many of Joseph Smiths dozens of wives that the husband did not find out until they got home. Also, why did he marry a 14yo? Even without any intimacy, that is wrong. There is 0 reason to do that. People fall away for many reasons. I know a few that feel the church never owns up to mistakes, I know some that feel the doctrine does not fit their views any longer, I know some that were abused and their abuser is still there with high up callings. People fall away for many reasons, to lump them all into one group is naive. People should not assume how everyone feels.
@@KingsIPodcast Also, to say everyone that stops believing in the church is now godless is also naive. I stopped going because I feel God is far more loving than the LDS version of God.
That’s very unfortunate to hear.
Once again both spouses (or parents) had to agree to it.
You’re asking some good questions. If you ask them, sincerely you’ll take the time to find the answers and you just might find some very good satisfactory answers. But if you ask questions merely as talking points to abandon your faith, it’s pointless.
And his day people viewed sealing as a net or almost like a spiderweb.
Many people wanted to get sealed to Joseph so they could be also sealed to Christ
Many sealings had nothing to do with producing children nor with being a wife for eternity and everything to do with being with Christ and his kingdom
CZcams, where have you taken me?
Good luck dude - this is definitely a take.
I sincerely hope you read up and educate yourself more thoroughly on the subject. Have a nice day.
😂😂😂 sorry your comment made me laugh out loud haha. “This is definitely a take” 😂 exactly my thoughts as I watched this.
This guy seems super nice but doesn’t seem very well informed on the subject matter. Also so many bases claims were made that I don’t think he even recognizes it.
This is exactly what happens when you start from “the church IS true” instead of “WHAT is true”. You fool yourself.
I suppose if I were spouting off without researching and If I hadn’t been quoting some of that research, I might actually agree with you.
Please, read the book and let me know which things they got wrong. Don’t base it off of the things you “know” that you don’t actually know.
@KingsIPodcast I have not read Stoddard's books, although I am familiar with some of the contents. Perhaps I will read them if I have the time and inclination some time, but I find others have more insightful and authoritative things to say on the matter.
I will briefly describe some issues I have with your takes here and with one aspect of Stoddards work:
* You describe Bushman's work as "anti-mormon"
* You describe mormon history as "pristine" and "clean"
This type of language immediately causes me to question motives. The same way, I would if one were to describe mormon history as "depraved" or "demonic." It suggests heavy bias and an unwillingness to approach the subject with any rationality. It suggests zealotry and cultishness. Of course, some believers pride themselves on this type of complete faithfulness. I've found, through personal experience, that these types tend to be dangerous in one way or another.
Now, as far as Hannah. She appears to take great issue with Hurlbut and his affidavits that claim Joseph was a treasure digger. I have no problem being cautious with Hurlbut. He clearly took issue with Mormonism. But why all this insistence that this casts doubt on Joseph's treasure digging when he himself admits to treasure digging when hired by Stoal? It's in his own history. It's weird how insistent she is that he was not a treasure digger. 🤷♂️
2:20 What part of the 150+ years a RACIST RANTINGS (Doctrine on Blacks and Policy on the Priesthood) "were pure, unadulterated from Jesus Christ"???
You seem to forget that God and Christ are perfect, not the people who are trying to follow the commandments but make mistakes. You also have to understand historical context. Just like the founding of the country. It wouldn’t have happened had slavery been abolished right off the bat. It sucks that racism was prevalent in our country for so long. But in less than 100yrs of the countries forming slavery was abolished. In less than 200yrs the Civil Rights movement happened. No other country in the world has done anything like this. The Church evolved as well when the people were righteous and ready enough to receive it. Is the Church racist today? Is Pres. Nelson and other Church leaders shouting racist things from the pulpit? If so, what are they?
@@ryanking1595 The Issue is those past "Prophets" and "Apostles" said the Doctrine and Policies were based on DIRECTION FROM God/Jesus...."on high." ..... WHEN IT WAS NOT!!
@@ryanking1595"this church evolved". Some would say This negates the claim forprophets then.
The race topic is damning. Either God didn't care enough to clue his prophets in to 1/3 of the earths population, or early leaders were false prophets following the ways of the world. Or....
@@krismurphy7711thats right.
@@truthseeker4286 on the contrary, who receives the “updates” from God? And the race problem is damning…for the individual, not Christ’s church in its entirety. People aren’t perfect, including Gods elect.
I have been wanting to make pro Lds content to help fight against the evil in this world but I am not sure if could do it.
Stick to the truth....oh wait....that won't help. Adopt an Apologetic Agenda.
But if he stuck to the truth you might troll him….
It’s not for the faint of heart. You have to handle the comments and accept the fact that apostates love cracking a whip in the comment section.
I have a simple and direct Pro LDS comment to haters. I say: "THANKS, Satan doesn't Bash his Buddies". This statement proves the church. No other church is bashed like LDS.
@@madogg152 You are intelligent enough to realize the gravity of the Truth & Authority CLAIMS and that they are unique in Modern Christianity and in the USA????
I have NO DOUBTS. I have a steadfast near PERFECT knowledge.
No other church is BASHED, MALIGNED, HATED, OPPRESSED as the LDS.
This very fact should be a compass.
To all the HATERS and so many that LIE, make false statements, I Thank them THUSLY!!!
"THANKS, Satan doesn't Bash his buddies".
The church being so hated, maligned and blatantly lied about, proves it is the Church of God.
Satan doesn't waste his time bashing false religions.
Jehovah's Witnesses say the exact same thing.
@@theopneustos3712 I some what agree. JWs were very annoying and never ceasing. They are NOT the Church of God because only 144k can be saved. That would be a very prejudice God. I have not seen a JW in many years, maybe even a decade. A couple came to a friends house, while I was there. I was shocked. They have realized their abusive approach doesn't work. JWs don't claim a restoration. There are 46,000 Christian denominations currently and growing. Where do they receive the authority. LDS make a Crazy claim Christ and Melchizedek visited him and gave the authority to Baptize etc. Because the claim is so Outrageous, I have pondered it MUCH!!!!. My only conclusion, that claim was consistent with the Bible and how God works.
How is Rough Stone Rolling an "anti" book as you call it? It was written by an LDS member. He is a two time bishop and stake president. He was commissioned to write the book for the 200th anniversary of the birth of Joseph Smith. Deseret Books still carries the book in its stores. The church owned publisher and retailer does not carry anti-mormon books.
His membership doesn’t give him a hall pass regarding his obvious misdirection with what he wrote.
Callings and attendance also don’t give him a hall pass.
We can’t ignore facts.
@@KingsIPodcast It made me more strong in faith reading the book. My bishop recommends the book to others.
@@KingsIPodcast And your claimed knowledge and activity in The Church makes you an unbiased commenter??? This is all just your opinion about a guy whose life was/is devoted to history......AND YOU? How old are you?
@@krismurphy7711"how old are u" . Exactly. Same with mental gymnastic Stoddard
For most who read it it’s a spiritual roller coaster. And regardless of your opinion on it, do you want to believe the lies because he wrote it so well?
At 4:56. Millennials and Gen-Z are not reading much about church history. They are leaving for a multitude of reasons. The estimates are as of 2024 there is an expectation that 86% of current youth church members (aged 12-17) will have left the church by age 25. Much of this history was around 20 years ago, yet youth were no leaving in great numbers. There are other factors that need to be examined. In Utah there are estimates of at much as 25% of youth members fall somewhere in the LGBTQ spectrum. There are also strong sociological forces youth and millennials face (feminism, social justice, wokeism). And there is a left leaning agenda in most universities that young adults have to contend with. There is also a growing trend towards progressive mormonism among church members. When I did a workshop for teachers in my stake I was shocked by the stories teachers were telling about member beliefs. Many members believe it is okay to approve of cases where children are leading a gay lifestyle. Others see no problem with having children change genders and adopt new name and gender pronoun. Other members see key parts of standard work scriptures as offensive and so do no follow those sections. The leaving by members is due to a lot of factors outside of history.
You bring up a lot of good points and YES there are many factors. But consider how much easier it is to accept and participate in the social contagion of mental illness, sin, and much more, when you are raised among saints (even your own parents) that have lost their love and enthusiasm and therefore deeply embedded commitment to Christ’s church. And how easy is it to wander when the saints generally accept lies to smear our history! If your roots are unpalatable to you, you will abandon your roots.
@@KingsIPodcast Once again, history is not a major reason for leaving. Youth are leaving for other reasons. In previous generations we had no social media or internet. That shielded many church members from the criticisms. Podcasts like Mormon Stories (Dehlin) fail to see the benefits the real gospel has in peoples' lives. Their strategy is just to give worst case scenarios and use bad logic to say those are proof the church is not true. The lies are a problem. There are many surrounding plural marriage for example. The so-called "anti-mormon" rhetoric I read much of before I joined in the 1990s. I still read some. It gives me even more resolve that I am in the true church. I have critical thinking skills from graduate school. Training for a PhD will do that. However like most of society they lack rational thought. Some of the "anti" claims I have heard do not make logical sense.
History, and our understanding of it, does indeed play a role in all of this. I encourage you to take the time to see it’s connection. Feeling bonded to your heritage is so vital that God tries to get us to always remember our spiritual heritage. The same applies to Countries, civilizations, and tribes.
@@KingsIPodcast Roots....penetrating into sand and not soil.
time will prove otherwise. Always has with Christ's true church - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Attendance at 5:30. That is one of the biggest issues we deal with in my ward. I can counsel people to come to church but they don't see a point. They need to learn that no what is going on in your personal life, coming to church is essential. I spoke on this for fifth Sunday the other day. Sacrament is essential for renewing baptism covenants. Yet many members will take Sundays as reasons to avoid church. Satan loves that.
But why is coming to church essential if the church was built upon dirty laundry?
@@KingsIPodcast There are two parts of church. Many don't care about history or changing doctrine. They see church and temples as places where they get spiritually fulfilled. Church on Sunday acts like a spiritual hospital where people are getting their broken souls mended. That is our role in leadership, to help them in this process. The other side of course is all the controversy with history, polygamy. polyandry, controversial doctrine etc.
There are plenty of things that can be difficult to comprehend and swallow, especially given our much removed modern era and culture. But if the church itself, God‘s very kingdom cannot be glorious to the Saints who congregate every Sunday and their children not raised around such an attitude, it becomes very easy to lose them.
God’s kingdom is very glorious, the history of God‘s kingdom is very glorious, and we need to not distort that
@@KingsIPodcast Distort Polygamy? Distort bank fraud and land speculation and profiteering? Distort False prophecies? Distort ridiculous claims about bones and rocks?
Hmmm. If the story you believe in is as you say, then it’s a crazy miracle that people are still filled with hope and light because of their faith in Christ which they found in a church that Joseph made.
A bad plant can’t produce good fruit.
You’re talking points actually have some good explanations, but I understand you’re not sincere to know the truth.
Arrington would be proud of his handiwork if he were here to witness these threads.
I am an ex-mo who is glad I searched the scriptures and used common sense to learn that the Mormon church is not true. I also learned that Joseph Smith was not a prophet.
One day I hope to welcome you back. Until then, keep being the best you can be!
Yes, they did lie AND continue to.
Sorry you feel that way. Really am.
If the prophet married your teenage sister and your mom, would you still believe he’s from God?
sealed or married? - consummated or untouched, no sexual involvement nor interest? - know the difference.
It's tiring to hear people use strawman statements, hoping that the implications of what they say depict the darkest false image imaginable.
@@KingsIPodcast It’s tiring to hear ignorance apologetic make excuses for evil men. Either type of sealing for time or eternity to young women, sisters or married women contradicts the supposed reason for the revelation to produce seed. Try educating yourself outside your bubble so you have some knowledge before you start to try and save the Mormon world. You’re not Captain Moroni.
@@KingsIPodcast I don’t believe any of his wives had sex with a strawman.
we can’t whitewash everything. Some were for the purpose of polygamy, and even in those cases he often did not consummate (he would find already pregnant women). And the others were for the purpose of connecting with Christ through sealing power.
😂That’s the best comeback I think I’ve ever read!
I wonder what will happen if he is shown by the doctrine of the church that his church can not be true. I will start out with one thing, and then expound later perhaps. Let's take the concept of the restoration. A restoration would imply a fix of something that is still in existence. well, If none of the churches are God's church on the earth, that means God had to recreate, not restore the church. However, there is another problem. According to LDS doctrine, there are supposed to be at least 4 men who were supposed to remain on earth to teach the gospel, and these men were apostles. This would mean that the church never fully apostatized either, and the priesthood was never taken from the earth. So, that means every claim of authority made by the LDS church is false.
Your first line of logic is incorrect. A restoration does not imply a fix (I think you might be thinking of cars, but it doesn’t carry over well to other scenarios like this one). It means to bring back. In this case, bring back that which was lost. (I suppose if you need to think of it as a car, think of how a restoration brings back the loss of beauty and functionality to a car).
About the 4 men. They remained to do God’s work on the earth until his coming and the people rejected and disintegrated the church in the Americas and Middle East. Just because you have these 4 doesn’t mean the church can keep held together. Not even when the people had 12 apostles could they do that.
Question: what do you make of the clear evidence regarding the apostasy of the church back when the apostles were getting killed and the leadership lost?
@@KingsIPodcast You are hilarious. How do you bring something back to something that no longer exists?
Next, If those apostles were to do God's work, it means they would be teaching and upholding the doctrine of God. The priesthood would not need to be brought back, as it was already there. This means the whole reason for the supposed restoration is contradicted.
As far as the apostasy goes, we have two ways we can go down this road, and neither leads to a conclusion you would like. the first is that it never says a complete removal of God's church from the earth. once again, a restoration implies that the original thing must still be present, and that you are bringing back the thing that is already there. The next problem you have is you are calling Jesus a liar if you claim the restoration is true. As Jesus stated that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. If God's church or authority ever leaves the earth, then you are calling your savior a liar.
- go back to the car analogy: the beauty and power of the vehicle is gone, it’s been lost in a wreck or vandalism. So you restore it. Not a hard concept. But in this case we are talking about lost priesthood authority and structure.
Those 4 individuals you mention have other types of work to perform, not to perform the role of a prophet and lead Christ’s church as un-aging men in the latter days.
And you do not understand the words of Christ. If our church makes Christ a liar, then so do the New Testament apostles who spoke that there would be an apostles. Even Christ indicated the murder of his apostles and the truth going away.
Read all the scriptures more carefully.
@@KingsIPodcast going back to the car analogy. the original car is still there.your own analogy proves my point XD once again, how do you restore a car if the car no longer exists? If God was to restore a church, he would go to a church currently existing, and return it to what it was originally, not create another religion from scratch.
And I want you to hear how ridiculous you sound. What, according to your beliefs, are the roles of Apostles? Last i checked, none of them were released from that calling, and Joseph ended up needing other Apostles of Christ to "restore" the priesthood.
The “car” is still there but it’s dead. You have believers without the leadership and guiding direction of the church by revelation is missing.
No matter how you try to splice it, the church was truly disintegrated.
And why God didn’t use those other leaders is up to God. But the scriptures predicted the loss of the church and even if you can understand it, observation of history alone would make that obvious to you.
1:55 "squeaky clean and beautiful Church history is"..... What have you been smoking?? How old are you???
Joseph's character is quite clean and above reproach. just look at the credible sources of the thousands that knew him and stayed with him. libelous sources still have to be reconciled to those sources that were far more intimate and longer lasting.
@@KingsIPodcast How old are you?
Krismurphy has mormon derangement syndrome. He does the same thing on many other lds channels. Not worth responding to.
2:40 "REPROACH".... please. How many moneydigging partners thought differently???
He has one job where someone hired him to dig for treasure and he convinced the employer to give up venture. Very different from the narrative you consumed
@@KingsIPodcast The TRUE and ACCURATE Narrative. You are enamored by Hannah and her Two Friends.
I love to know truth. I'm not married to a lie. If it makes you uncomforable to learn these facts, please move on with your life and stop trolling.
@@KingsIPodcast LOL... YOU speak about facts....but how many do you discard...like Hannah and her Dad did?? You call me a troll? What are you doing? You bear false witness...Pass judgement...ALL the while being surprisingly ignorant.
What facts have been omitted? What am I ignoring?
You seem like a super nice person. But it really was hard to listen to a lot of ignorant claims and blatant special pleading in your video.
Thanks for the compliment and your feedback. I really sincerely encourage you to read the books, both volumes. Maybe you’ll fee different then.
And hard to listen to him swallowing hook, line, and sinker anything a non-historian young gal says as if it's true about the problems with the church being made by the historians. Good grief man study it out for yourself instead of believing what Hannah Stoddard says.
0:08 "these people don't believe in God anymore"....???? Bearing false witness. THAT IS A SIN MR. GOOD CHRISTIAN MORMON!!
I think the hardest thing about these sort of comments is discerning how off the rails someone becomes.
@@KingsIPodcast Imagine the reaction when some nut starts putting up CZcams content misrepresenting someone's beliefs or religion.....uh wait....THAT'S YOU!!! I believe in God...and Jesus...but not that Joseph Smith could see where buried treasure was located using his moneydigging scam rock.
No truth in religion
What is truth? How might you define it?
A false Jesus cannot save you from real sins. LDS preaches a false gospel and a false Jesus.
Galatians warns us about Mormonism.
How so?
I really can't listen to any more of this ignorant BS. Maybe I will come back and listen to the defamatory and ignorant declarations this kid is making.
Good thing we live in a free country where no one is forced to believe anything they don’t want to. You’re kind of making his point of dragging everyone else to be as miserable as you. Enjoy the podcast :)
@@ryanking1595 Truthful and Accurate LDS Church history IS DEPRESSING for those of us raised in The Church....or converted without being given full disclosure, and continued indoctrination.
@@krismurphy7711 History in general is depressing, but it’s also full of wonderful things!
@@ryanking1595 I don’t disagree. But we are taking about God and Religion and Souls. ALL the marbles
Church history is NOT depressing as an overall, general outlook. If you perceive it to be it's because your too focused on the trials or lost in the lies. I have found that to be true for many people who don't like our church history.
Church history is so glorious it should be wonderful to recall.