Reason Alone Can't Get You To Morality
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Pastor John MacArthur joins Ben Shapiro to discuss the role of the church in society.
WATCH the full episode here: • John MacArthur | The B...
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Also I love Ben Shapiro for his boldness and respect for others. He is open to debate, people think he is harsh but he does very well when exposing political absurdities. It is hard not to sound aggressive when dealing with absolute madness by the way.
Love how Dr John MacArthur tells the Truth without wavering, he's really a wise man who has built his house upon a rock (Matthew 7)
Basically "spiritual not religious" pretty much means forming a God of one's own making and not being tied down to a religion to challenge their beliefs.
Thank God for John MacArthur. He speaks God's word truthfully and unashamedly. So grateful I can listen to his sermons daily
TY Ben, this was incredible and off the charts poignant and powerful. I'm looking forward to your next discussion with Pastor MacArthur, two of my favorite people in the same room talking truth.
Saying you are spiritual but not religious is pretty much just atheism with extra steps.
Great respect for Rev John MacArthur, much love from Australia.
Yes! McArthur and Shapiro!
Thank you Pastor and Ben....loved the discussion
I would love for Ben to interview William Lane Craig. To note, John doesnt say the bible is true because i believe it. He said after it has stood up to his rigorous scrutiny. At the end of the day, you look at the evidence and decide whether that is convincing enough for you. Note this can be influenced by the ramification of belief. For example, you can believe the bible to be historically accurate yet reject Christ because you want to rule your own life.
I mean modern simulation theory fits perfectly with "all things have came into being through word"-John 1:3
If one accepts meaning as axiomatic then moral philosophy, such as natural law, can indeed get you very far. All in all, reason and Faith should inform one another.
Reason can get you to a morality, a subjective one, but it does not mean that it isnt morality at all. And its the best thing that anyone can achieve when it comes to morality.
Thank God for pastor MacArthur for the God given wisdom, may God increase him in wisdom and courage to speak the Truth, God wants everyone to come to the knowledge of Christ
I believe him when he says his brain is feeble. I have no I test in listening to someone that never questions their own beliefs.
His brain is not feeble at all. He is smart enough to fool many with his apparent rational arguments. He is lying and he knows it.
@Wallace, he isn't saying that his brain is feeble compared to other human beings. As you pointed out, it is not. What he is pointing out is that the human brain is incapable of understanding anything but a very small portion of what is knowable. We can't even completely understand the Universe, so what makes us think that we can figure out things beyond the Universe just by thinking about it?
Maybe you need to question your own beliefs . Only a fool who hasn't read the Bible and learn what is says, will say there is no God . It's funny how people try to discredit the Bible without even reading it fully once .
I encourage you to start reading from the N.T and then from the O.T , so that you could atleast understand and argue better .
God bless you .
I’m a Christian, but I question my beliefs quite often actually.
Paul says to question your faith in scripture to subsequently produce endurance.
-James 1:3
For the testing of your faith produces perseverance.
@@TimothyFish what makes you think you can figure out things beyond the universe just by readings a series of patterns and dashes on a page?
Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke as God was giving them revelation!
Without a divine God there is no morality, all you would have is ethics,
O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself;
It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps.
Morality is simply the real world application of a man's ethics. The Christian god, as expressed in the Bible, is both immoral and unethical. Unless you want to start arguing for the morality of slavery and the ethics of genocide, just for starters.
care to go down the path and judge God...if so you had better be prepared to ...explain and justify mankind's evil..vile ...wicked nature..which can't be refuted...and you will have to explain how is it..mankind can create laws that allow for the murdering of the unborn child in their mother's womb..and..attempt to judge..a Creator/God for dictating...how mankind shall live and ...God's authority to punish ..a rebellious...evil..vile and wicked creation...
Cymoon, you are correct.
@@arionassis-niarchos2895 You will not find me arguing that all mankind is always good and I see no reason why I should be asked to.
That is a completely seperate question from whether the Christian god exists or if he does exist why we should view that god as anything more than the ultimate evil.
After all the Christian god tells us that we are born sinful (!) and thereafter must live life according to his absurd and changing rules and even then might be doomed to eternal unpleasantness of one sort of another.
At various times god has approved murder, slavery, genocide, child sacrifice, group punishment, etc. etc. etc.
Not to be flippant but god out stalin's Stalin and out mao's Mao and puts Hitler in the shade.
The problem is simple: Christianity is a mass of selfcontradicting absurdities and requires that humans enslave themselves to those absurdities when in reality religion is at its heart all about power, who has it and against whom that power is wielded.
But I'll be happy to change my mind as soon as god appears and speaks to us all. Fair deal?
@@dannydano8072 "
danny dano
2 minutes ago
@ari onassis-niarchos You will not find me arguing that all mankind is always good and I see no reason why I should be asked to.
That is a completely seperate question from whether the Christian god exists or if he does exist why we should view that god as anything more than the ultimate evil.
After all the Christian god tells us that we are born sinful (!) and thereafter must live life according to his absurd and changing rules and even then might be doomed to eternal unpleasantness of one sort of another.
At various times god has approved murder, slavery, genocide, child sacrifice, group punishment, etc. etc. etc.
Not to be flippant but god out stalin's Stalin and out mao's Mao and puts Hitler in the shade.
The problem is simple: Christianity is a mass of selfcontradicting absurdities and requires that humans enslave themselves to those absurdities when in reality religion is at its heart all about power, who has it and against whom that power is wielded.
But I'll be happy to change my mind as soon as god appears and speaks to us all. Fair deal"
>>>> " danny dano
46 minutes ago
Morality is simply the real world application of a man's ethics. The Christian god, as expressed in the Bible, is both immoral and unethical. Unless you want to start arguing for the morality of slavery and the ethics of genocide, just for starters.">>>
once again...would you care to go down the path..of judging God..if so..I have put forth to you...what you will have to defend... and you will not be able to refute maninkd's ...evil...vile and wicked deed/nature..
So let me get this straight…….when a ‘spiritual’ person explores religious practices to be guided by the Spirit toward the divinity within, this is entirely subjective, inappropriate and makes them their own God, but when Pastor MacArthur reads/preaches the Bible he knows it is true because subjectively he has never had to question it and because (to him) it stands up to his scrutiny .
Today I had the integrity of my Charity Foundation attacked by a Christian who argued its illogical for me to do Charity work. 1) because it is illogical to help anyone but yourself if I don’t believe in the Christian God’s moral framework. 2)) And since its illogical for me to want to help someone then I’m therefore incapable of helping people. 3) I’m immoral to the core. 4) Finally, my core immorality makes it so I will eventually use my Charity for immoral goals and things. And anyone involved in the charity work were all being deceived by an immoral person, a.k.a. Me. It broke my heart that he was holding a baby in his Facebook profile picture. I feel so sorry for his kid 😔 And I don’t mean that in a condescending way. It’s really sad that he’s going to indoctrinate a baby to believe he or she is incapable of being a good person without God.
Dont confuse this Christians poor theology with what the bible says. Christians arent taught that they are good and everyone else is immoral. Christians are taught everyone has a sense of right and wrong regardless of faith because we are created in gods image. That being said, you dont have an account for morality without religion. Any morality derived outside of religion is subjective, which might as well be a matter of opinion. The atheist cannot account for why it is moral for humans to help other humans can, theists can.
Video begins with straw man: "spiritual but non-religious means people are their own God."
Spiritual but non religious fits the category of a theist not tied to a specific doctrine. It just means they don't believe in organised religion. Otherwise they can conceptualise God in a myriad of ways - one of which is to think of yourself as a God. The categorical thinking here is why the charge of irrationality is levelled against these types of zealots.
It means that you think that you are capable of determining how you should act in the world without a religious affiliation.
If one is not tied to specific doctrine, who is their authority rather than themselves, who or what informs moral thinking and decisions. you don’t pick and choose what doctrine you feel like is good and not be your own moral authority.
@@Smb994 Bring tied to a specific doctrine is the EXACT same thing as what you are describing. You are being led by other PRIMATES who wrote all this crap in 800BC. In the end, it is simply humans following humans. You have done nothing more than assert a distiction without an actual difference.
John cut to the heart of the matter. Many times, when people say that, they want the framework of objective morality without the lawgiver...meaning they decide for themselves what is moral...thus supplanting God. They are their own god.
@@gitrattled1933 Exactly. Adhering to a formal religion still necessitates a conscious decision as to which doctrine to adopt. I guess we're just supposed to take his word for it that his version of religion is best? What a crock of shit. Shapiro must've run out of interesting guests to interview. If he wants to create artificial dichotomies, I'd much rather be my own God than be a slave to his line of thinking. Spirituality predates organized religion, not the other way around.
Did this religious extremist just call me insane because I don't believe in an invisible man who I need to hold myself accountable to in some way? I respect your right to choose to believe in things that have no basis in reality, only the minds of the men who made them up. Why can't you respect my right to not feel the need to stress about what happens after death? Why resort to defamation?
« There has to be God » quality argument .
« There doesn't have to be a God » quality argument .
god most probable and necessary for everything concerning everything
Templar can you turn that into an argument rather than preaching?
Fox, the replies to this scare me. Hard to believe these god fearin' folk truly believe these things.
@Templar I just would like to ask why there HAS to be a God?
The spiritual and the religion are not separated, but the church not alway's it's the rigth way to look at it, and not alway's the best representative autjority of that.
And been spiritual, does not mean the use only of the razon, or the mind, but the spiritual part of one self. And knowing that God is in everyone, so the truth it must be in you, not in youre mind, in all of you, but only having acces to that for the most high spiritual, o thrut God in to you. It dosen't mean anarchy, it mean's spiritual search with out a church in the conventional way.
Why doesn’t he ever tell Ben he’s going to hell to burn forever if he doesn’t believe in Jesus?
He does bring out that Jesus fulfills the prophecy of the Old Testament. As versed as Ben is in Christianity, he already knows his situation. It is no longer the responsibility of Christians to tell him his situation.
Bruh sound effect #2
Christ is king
Weird circular argument: “Morality and ethics come from scriptures dictated by God - I know this, because I believe in God.”
If there is no ultimate moral authority, then morality must come from within ourselves, which means we each have our own morality. So then I have every moral right, within my own internal moral code, to go into your garage and help myself to anything you have that I don't have--your lawnmower, your car, your wife. My morality says it's unjust for you to have what I don't, and justice requires you to give it to me, and my highest moral obligation is to spread my genes as far and wide as possible. (I don't really think this way, of course, but if each person has his own moral code, there would be chaos as a result of conflicting moral values.)
So as an atheist tell us where does morality come from and how do you know this?
proudBLACKconservative If anything I´m an agnostic atheist. And since much smarter ppl than me don´t know and can´t agree on this, I dont claim to know. My guess is - like I wrote before - that many of our current moral codes stem from religious rules, guidelines, scriptures etc. Not just the bible, but other scriptures, religions, traditions etc. And I believe these rules over time were seen as the most practical and useful framework for co-existance. I absolutely dont believe morals and ethics came from a god or divine entity.
@@home4life505 A person's morality is formed based on their environment, how they were raised, and their sense of empathy. Everyone has different morals. Even christians have disagreements of what is right and wrong. There is no such thing as objective morality.
Wizard.
I’m catholic and completely understand atheists. Why should anyone belive in anything without seeing it? What about doubting Thomas? Did someone accuse him for not beliving? About Bible, I prefer to be like 10 year old child. Please, tell me what’s wrong with my belif, like to question myself:
Jesus gave us onley two commandements:
1. Love God with all your heart, strength, soul and mind
2. Love your neighbour as yourself
By first, I imagine God as Love- creating spirit, brings harmony, don’t know where it comes from, don’t know much about it but accept it in my heart willingly. More powerful than division spirit- diabolus.
By second, neighbour is in Bible described trough story of good Samaritan- a man with different belif that helps you. So, I should love someone that doesn’t think as I do, but helps me in trouble, as myself. If I put it in that way, muslim that helps me is my neighbour an I should love him as myself.
I also belive that first sin brought us into chaos- eating fruits from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. This is the onley decision that we can’t do. What is good and evil knows onley God himself. Love is not alowing everithing, you can’t alowe to your child to do everything that wants. Therefore, Love is not excludig punishment, but Love is not punishing you, but you alone by not respecting the law of love.
Please, inlight me, how am I doing something wrong?
How do you determine something without reason?
Pretty sure animals in the wild display morality.
Min 1:00
To quote Pastor MacArthur "......It is a form of insanity to think that you can navigate the realities of eternity and life and death, and life after death and the great questions by looking into your own brain".
I believe that self interpretation of the bible without guidance falls into this insanity that he is describing here, that is why we have 45,000 "christian" denominations and counting, that is why we need a Divine Authority given to us by God and His Son to guide us so we do not fall into self interpreting the Word of God. Misinterpreting the Word of God and creating our own form of "Christianity had led us into this relativistic world, a world where the only truth that exists is that there is no truth.
We have more christian denominations now than ever in history and more confusion, relativism, and celebration of sin than ever in history, please pray about it, and consider joining the Catholic Church.
Thank you Ben and Pastor MacArthur.
Everyone, no matter their religion or culture, agrees that hypocrisy is always wrong. If something is objectively wrong, you can say it is evil. If true evil exists, so must true righteousness because you would not be able to recognize evil without a standard of righteousness by which to compare it. Our Creator's standard of righteousness is Yeshua.
As a non believer of religion I think our morality comes from feelings and emotions that naturally developed in us humans over millions of years.
I disagree. There are too many examples of something that feels right…but is wrong.
It’s good to see a Catholic who’s actually read and studied the Bible.
Happy Hanukkah, Ben.
If you CAN be reasoned into being moral (read: good in one's actions), then can't you be reasoned into being inmoral (read: bad in one's actions), or be reasoned out of it? The asssumption being that morality is something external and not something people have already known, but only use reason to explain instead of justify?
Great interview with John Mac!!
Correction: Job 26:7 says God hangs the Earth upon nothing, not Isaiah.
I would LOVE Ben Shapiro vs Abdu Murray on Christianity: Lawyer to Lawyer
Asking a priest about the possibility of morality without God will of course not give you a biased answer.
If you can get to reason, you can get to objective moral standards. But, you can’t have reason without God. Reason is just as impossible without God as morality.
How so🤔
Ramis Zinal there’s two statements there, which one?
"But, you can't have reason without God."
This one😊
Ramis Zinal the impossibility of the contrary. In other words, anytime one tries to account for intelligibility, rationality, knowledge, reason, and so on without accounting for the preconditions of such with the revelation from God of both innate knowledge of God and the verity of the most axiomatic preconditions being accounted for, they result in absurdity.
Hi Jeffery Hunt! I can’t help but laugh at “impossibility of the contrary”. People still use TAG?
1. TAG is successful only if every non-Christian worldview necessarily entails a contradiction (or is ‘internally incoherent’).
2. There is a potentially infinite number of non-Christian worldviews.
3. Either:
4. a) There is one way to establish that all the non-Christian worldviews are internally incoherent, or b) One proof is not enough but there is a finite number of ways to establish that they are all incoherent, or c) There is an infinite number of ways required to establish that they are all incoherent.
5. No proponent of TAG has established a); and it seems easy to prove that b) cannot be established (given a plausible formalization of ‘worldview’ as a set of beliefs); and if c) then it is not possible for a finite being to prove TAG.
6. Therefore, TAG has not been established, and is likely to be unprovable.
Any objection to this counter argument can be found here: useofreason.wordpress.com/2015/11/07/the-problem-with-tag/
Please stop using TAG. For your own sake. You just set yourself up for failure.
Yes. Have a debate with Sam Harris or Christopher Hutchins, so we can hear both perspectives on morality. 🙈🙉🙊🐒
great conversation !!!
“There has to be a god, he has to be able to reason, think and love. He has to be holy and righteous”...sounds like a lot of wishful thinking to me. But whatever floats ya boat.
It's called the argument from consequence libtard.
Doctor Batman..Aka “wishful thinking”
This is where I depart. Ben popularized facts don't care about feelings, but the religion argument is pure belief. How do they square that circle? It's just the same as sjw double think. I'm not opposed to religion as an idea but telling me it must be one way without concrete proof is baffling. Why are there so many religions?
There are so many religions because there are so many people like you who believe that religion is belief without evidence. If evidence is not required then people can make up whatever and their belief is just as valid as anyone else's. But the Bible actually calls for people to look for evidence of what they believe. Significant portions of it are lengthy logical proofs of the things the writers believed.
@@TimothyFish Like what? They couldn't be bothered to throw in one for God?
@@doctorbatman8520, the writers of the Bible didn't provide proofs for God because they were eyewitnesses. Today we dealt with proofs because we are much farther removed from the events.
@@TimothyFish The writers of the vast majority of the Bible did not claim to be eyewitnesses to God. The only one you can say with any confidence is Paul.
@Doctor Batman, Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible and he very much did claim to be an eyewitness of God. And because people in his day were no more willing to blindly accept such claims without evidence than we are today, God gave him a staff that budded. And then, once they were headed out of Egypt they were guided by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. Joshua met with the "Angel of the Lord". The prophets had visions and at times heard the voice of God. And let's not forget the under the law the penalty for claiming to speak for God and what you say not coming true is death. These guys didn't make vague statements that could be reinterpreted to fit events as they occurred. The people they spoke to had the ability to compare what they said to the events that occurred. We don't even have to get into the New Testament, but there we have people who had a great mountain top experience, and then saw the resurrected Jesus. We have Paul to whom Jesus spoke after his ascension. We have John who experienced the throne room of heaven. I don't know where you are getting your information but you clearly aren't getting it from the Bible.
This argument is only valid when the topic being discussed is ultimate authority. Every argument for an ultimate authority is circular.
Religion can't get you to morality either.
I disagree. If you can’t look within to find God, it makes no sense to look anywhere else. This guy actually just said that knowing the Self as God makes you insane? Your relationship with God is WITHIN.
How can God say I will be with you always if he is externally rooted? Thereis nothing external that remains forever, not even your skin cells
I love these shows they eye opener👍
All these atheists and christians and egnostics arguing about mortality and ethics and religion is making my brain hurt
Saw Your headline and felt the need to respond. These reason this statement is true is because we view existence from a wrong perspective. Pastor MacArthur as well as Shapiro are lost in the realm of material thinking or the material perspective which is a dead end street of self-illusions and consequential self-destructiveness. Of course one needs a creator, a source of direction outside the self when the self has no avenue to understanding of existence because he does not view it correctly. Everything is made of value, not matter.
These comments show just how many secular conservatives exist. I gotta disagree with pastor. For me, morality is easy. I don't kill people because it's a shitty thing to do, not because I fear eternal punishment. To abstain from acts for fear of punishment isn't morality. Abortion isn't wrong because hell awaits those who endorse it. It's wrong because you're killing a child, and we as a society deem the act murder. My friends of the faith, we share more things in common than you'd realize, despite having a different path to the same stance. Don't alienate or antagonize all of us atheists as if we're one identity. We're not. Ben is a master of logic and argument, yet still believes in that which can not be proven objectively. I respect that because what he believes, and all of you for that matter, doesn't infringe on my rights. I do hate when two religious people get together and talk about what atheists think. It's always way off.
If someone doesn't know what atheism means then they don't care about actually examining their beliefs.
@@doctorbatman8520 I somewhat agree. That's a hard standard to apply to all subjects though.
@@AccountInactive I mean if someone doesn't know what atheism is, they aren't critically examining their religious beliefs. That's my bad.
Account Inactive,
Well said... Secular and conservative here. I agree with almost every word except “ *Ben is a master of logic and argument, yet still believes in that which cannot be proven objectively* “. We all believe lots of things that cannot be proven objectively (objective reality cannot be proven objectively). Our most basic beliefs such as a mind independent reality, other minds, our memory, the notion of a self (there are many more) are all taken on blind faith. Much better to say “Ben is a master of logic and argument, yet still believes in that which doesn’t seem to correspond with reality”.
Not everyone believes abortion is wrong. That's why abortion clinics exist.
The Amazing Kreskin lives! He knows what other people think. I was wondering how do the religious know what is moral if they don't have the book in front of them? When they do have the "book" in front of them, how do they discern what words in there are to be taken literally? Slavery, stoning, sacrifices (human and animal) or that crowd favorite genocide?
Those books were all written by humans; did all of the authors have direct conversations with God? Can that somehow be separated from schizophrenia? Like the rest of evolution, the moral precepts are derived from millennia of human group interactions; learning what works and what doesn't and later written down. The religious practices have been adjusted over the centuries from the original texts.
I've always looked at the Bible as like solving a theorem. You have major discoveries over the past centuries where they have solved equations, and discovered answers for what intelligent minds knew there were answers too, but just haven't found them... even though the answer was right in front of them with enough digging.
The Bible works the same way. At least, it was presented to me in that way all my life. And I've never been steered wrong by it.
But to each their own.
The church has "fallen away" because it is empty. They bring recruits (not disciples) into the front door while they're leaving out the back. They left the scriptures in 325AD and took on Sunday worship and said all that "old stuff was done away with" except that old stuff--in obedience (not salvational) give you power and blessing like the first church saw.
Except for clear statements in Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14, along with Hebrews 7-10 clearly say that the Jews, much less the Gentiles, are not under the OT Law. The Law is weak, obsolete, and done away with (Hebrews 7-8), so how is it obedient to stay in the cell that Christ died to free you from? Besides, we are made righteous by the obedience of One (Romans 5:19) and Christ is in the end of the Law for all who believe (Romans 10:4).
Sorry man, I like this channel, but if you guys keep talking about religion, you are only gonna push the non religious people away, not everone on the right wing is a religious person =/
Spiritual but not religious=I prefer to make my own delusions
I looked at historical corpora and studies for university, and the concept of spirituality has up to 10 different meanings. It can even include things like meditation or just caring about other people and the world. In that way, it's true that everyone is spiritual to some degree as mj said, and it doesn't have to be unreasonable. But yes, most people use the word in a supernatural way.
"Why should people take God seriously ?"
"The Bible justifies itself"
If this is not bad argument then what is.
Its the same reason he uses for Spirituality, and is a fair point in my opinion. Religion/Spitiuality doesnt need justifying (nor is it really possible to justify), either you believe it or you don't. Arguing about it is a waste of time.
I wonder if you ever read or studied the Bible. Bible is not just 1 book, it's a collection of books, historical documents that has been collected over time. When you do a research ( for example), you look for the evidence to prove a certain point and look for the sources of information. You would compare different studies, check those sources for accurate and legitimacy. You can do the same thing with the Bible, however, it's so much easier just to brush it off and not to dig deep.
It is not only the reason. It's the reason, the facts, and the other people.
The more tempted we are to justify faith for its usefulness, the more it will seem like a brilliant invention of reason.
It does not take a god to know which behaviors are productive or beneficial and which are destructive and damaging within a community or a group.
Morality does not exist without other people. Intelligent and far-sighted interaction leads to a moral system of behavior. Faith, or religion, can be a good way to transmit it, some day.
On the other hand, if we are going to understand morality as a divine mandate that must be fulfilled out of fear of God's wrath, that makes us slaves to our belief. But every slave is usually a bipolar transgressor because he lacks his own convictions and autonomous responsible interactions.
That is why every time we forget the origin of a moral system and turn it into an imposition, we destroy it and lose it as such.
To show a simple case, the traffic lights are good enough.
Reason in the atheistic definition, reason with out God, can not get you to morality. However Reason properly applied allows us to reason to the existence of God and thus to morality
So reason can't bring you morality unless it leads you to believe in God?
What utter crap. God has led mankind into everything from war to the dark ages. Reason (more specifically the ability to think critically) led us away from those things.
Dregnis - the whole point of the video is that you can’t reason to morality, and acting morally is acting in accordance with the nature or God and what is immoral is what goes against the nature of God. You can philosophically reason to God. Religion has led to bad things but that is because they false religions. Christianity in its true form (Catholicism) has not brought about any evil. Bad men acting immorally may have but their Christian faith did not lead them to do these bad things. In response to what you said Christianity has done bad, the dark ages never existed, it is an enlightenment myth. What little bit of dark ages that may have befallen Europe was caused solely by pagan barbarians and not by Christians. And the only actual wars that Christianity has “caused” were the crusades which were a good thing. Any other war in Europe was caused by the selfish ambition of European rulers and not their shared faith. In fact when Europe lived in accordance with the Christian faith it was the height of Western civilization (11th century-15th century) and everything since then has been downhill because of immoral people, bad leadership, and apostasy.
@@noahsell1159 - "Christianity in it's true form (Catholicism) has not brought about any evil."
"The only actual wars that Christianity has caused were the crusades which were a good thing."
You have got to be shitting me.
This level of cognitive dissonance is why dogma like religion is antithetical to reason.
Saying christianity "in it's true form" has done no evil, and in the same reply defending war in the name of christianity.
Denying the dark ages ever happened is just gravy to that.
Yeah. Can't have reason without God.
Dregnis - do some historical scholarship then come back with some actual points
@@noahsell1159 - Does a basic level of education count? Because that's really all someone needs to debunk this weak argument of yours.
Discounting the fact that you discredited your own nonsense claim that Christianity can do no evil, high-school level "historical scholarship" will tell you that people in the past we're threatened, tortured, and sometimes brutally murdered for defying the church (for such heresy as claiming the earth orbits the sun)
If you want proof of just how morally corrupt the Catholics in particular have been, just type "Spanish Inquisition" into your nearest search field.
Jesus is the only savoir, Ben be ready bc He is coming soon.
Why do we need external control
Hi world
Did he actually just brag that he never for a moment questioned what he read?
yes
That’s a Calvinist for you
Are there people that think they are their own god/God, probably, but I wouldn't go as far as to say "Spiritual not religious" equates to thinking you are your own God. People who espouse this saying, I would argue, believe in something transcendental, but don't subscribe to any mainstream religion
as opposed to believing in a fucking sky gundam. Give me a break, gramps.
Self ownership? One has human rights one has natural rights and so does everyone else
Guy says we can't look for spirituality in our own head because he went through the bible with his own head and found nothing wrong with it.
Lol!
He is talking about without the Bible. The Bible didn't come from each individuals head. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.
He is using his head which is not particularly impressive to judge the bible, I shouldn't have to explain this to you. @@MadsenAltamirano
@@betepolitique4810 You didn't have to explain that to me, I already understood your befuddled view of what he said. And that's not what happened. Refer to my original reply. He is arguing that the Bible doesn't get made by everyone on their own time any way they want. He isn't saying that you can't judge it for yourself. Again, I shouldn't have to explain this to a haughty copycat like you.
@@MadsenAltamirano you've lost this exchange. retire with dignity.
We are born sinful, yes. Because God loves us so much he gives us the freedom to choose. The Devil is the reason we are sinful. Since Adam and Eve had a choice to do what the Serpent said or not, God cursed them and now here we are. Now he has given us Jesus and if we accept and follow Jesus we are forgiven and made right with God.
Can't God just not torture people for a sin he made our ancestors commit? That doesn't seem like a lot to ask.
Wasn't it supposed 2 be David Limbaugh on this Sunday special? What happened?
Ben has met his match!
There is a difference between religion and spiritually but it is not as explained here, Put simply spiritually is a direct connection or experience with God not prescribed or as defined or required by a religious denomination or doctrine. Contrary to someone saying I am god or I am my own god as was stated spiritually is coming to know there is a God and I'm not him (or her). Yes the Bible tells us how to stop playing God and be still and know He is God. Letting go of religion which I define as the beliefith that the teachings or doctrine of any denomination is restrictive and says that what the doctrine of our religious domination teaches is the only one that has it right which is religiosity = my religion only is right or the way. Religion or doctrine want save anyone than God spiritually set me free to KNOW that.
Not trying to preach to any one just important to express my disagreement and experience of what spiritually is.
0:20 that's not true from the start. Poland is way more religious than USA
I fear the problem with this video isn't the video itself, but the people who watch it with a closed mind and draw the same conclusion with their predetermined belief before watching it. I think that's why people cant see the truth.
"I have never, ever questioned the veracity and the divine character of scripture" well there you go
It means you're not paying careful attention to what he said. there you go...
Ravi Zacharias could have done a better job at giving a case for the bible and scripture. He is an apologist and a great preacher. I would love for Ben to talk to him.
Bible=allegory, it says it's self... Too many literalist look into the Bible and study it to the letter and not spiritually, it's a holy book meant for your spirit not a history book...
Reason alone is not an adequate source of morality?
That depends on what morality is supposed to refer to. Are you referring to objective morality? Because you would be correct. Objective morality is not a real thing. All morality is entirely opinion based.
However, opinion based morality is based entirely on reason and empathy. I believe, as a matter of logical principle that sexual assault is immoral. The rationale for this belief is that sexual assault harms people. Just if you can demonstrate that an activity harms people, that does not mean that there is any objective reason why you should not harm people. It is merely an opinion.
If you do not believe in a God, then all morality is purely opinion based. Even if you believe in a God, there still is not any reason to believe in objective morality. Even if you believe in a God, how do you know what moral rules, if any, God wants you to obey?
If people like Ben would just understand that objective morality doesn’t exist with or without a god, the conversation would be so much simpler. Even if a god exists, the god’s view on morality is also it’s own subjective opinion and there’s no obvious reason why we should necessarily care about that god’s opinions on morality. For example, if that god dictates that homosexuality is a sin and gay people should be stoned for their behavior then I reject that and it doesn’t automatically become correct to me just because the god says so. Not only can morality come from reason and rational discussion, it’s the only way to develop a moral system. Christianity and Judaism are in direct conflict with western values because we don’t value dictators (which is essentially what a god is). We value representative democracies
Respectively, the difference would be that God, at least the one I believe in, knows everything. Thus, there is a reason for why He says something.
Tim B it’s easy to make up a god and attribute whatever characteristics you want to it to fit what you want to believe but how do you know that any such being could even exist? And if it knows everything it would have known how to create humans without the ability to even be tempted to do evil
@@Tevyn843 But God doesn't want humans to be untempted. That would be pointless. What's the point of having God if you are already perfect without Him?
Also, I don't have any evidence apart from my own thinking. The thing I haven't seen any atheist answer adequately is where you would get morals without God?
Tim B what’s pointless is creating a lab rat scenario in which you make rules to follow and create beings who have natural inclinations to disobey those rules and then punish them for doing so. And my morals come from a consideration for the well-being of myself and others. They’re probably an innate sense of empathy and fairness, which has been naturally selected for because the people who didn’t care about the well being of themselves and others throughout history probably killed each other off. What I’m certain of is that my morals don’t come from a god because I don’t subscribe to divine command theory. God couldn’t make me think that something is either moral or immoral just because he has commanded it. I hold morals and values independent of what any god thinks, therefore his input is irrelevant to me. And that’s assuming any such being even exists in the first place
@@Tevyn843 I think you mistake my argument. My argument goes something like this:
Each and every single human seems to have a different opinion on something or other, each nation and culture certainly. But, there are a few things, those being moral laws such as do not steal, do not murder, do not lie, that seem to be prevalent in every nation, maybe not as legal code, but as a social code, meaning that a person who lied often would be looked down upon. Where does this come from? A moral compass. How could this take place through the process of evolution? Or, how does the Big Bang cause something non-physical to even take place? Why is it that I can change my opinion, but I can never change my conscience?
I would also like to point out, that it seems that we're talking about different Gods: the God I believe in is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, the god you don't believe in is just a powerful human.
Finally, what gives humans worth? What separates humans from animals, our ancestors as some may claim?
Cuz reason can be twisted into anything.
Yes it can. All you need is basic empathy and the ability to universally apply the principle of self-ownership.
Charles Lajoie nah
@@knowthycell Great argument, I hadn't thought of it that way.
Yep
You can convince yourself it’s good to do anything. Even kill someone if it helps you.
@@helloeveryone2168 and killing isn't always bad. Morality always comes from a frame of reference.
I love how he flippantly dismisses other religious texts as being obviously ridiculous. That’s how I feel about the bible. It’s amazing that smart people can be so blind.
Well there obviously aren't elephants in the ground. Maybe dead ones. If it was true they should still be there.
They're not blind. They are liars. They pretend to be free thinkers but they are liars. Pay attention to what they say and how they say and you will see they're trying to fool you. Intelligent educated people whose intentions are good wouldn't pretend to believe in or say such nonsense.
Wallace, the first shall be last, and the last shall be first, as such then the world's "intelligent", "educated" and "wise" will be least and the faithful, meek, and humble shall be foremost. This is a summary of how God deems whom as righteous. The first half is from the Bible, second half, paraphrased by me for explaination.
If God wanted to cater to the world instead of the faithful, he would have created the world through the Big Bang and evolution, and written it in the bible. If he wanted to cater to the world, he would have made all the supernatural events be explainable with science. But no, he baffles the world's proud and ignorant intellect and educated with supernatural events unexplainable by any science, so much that they call it "nonsense" and the followers they slander as "liars" and "dumb, uneducated people", and he has baffled the self-righteous on purpose.
@@wallace8190 "They pretend to be free thinkers but they are liars."
Do not each one of us Christians have the ability or free will to think for ourselves? Did we not choose on our own free thought that we believe in a God and Messiah?
wallace I know what you’re saying and there are many liars out there. That’s why I have my channel (not that anyone sees my videos lol!). Ben is so straight up with most things. I really don’t think he is lying (to himself, maybe). Like you (I think), I just don’t understand why anyone believes this stuff.
Bit of a strawman here. I generally take the "spiritual not religious" phrase to mean more of a belief in a creator, but but being unable to comprehend who or what it is. Like a bacteria attempting to understand the solar system, it may not even be possible.
Besides, I typically don't like to associate myself with jesus's overzealous fan club.
If this guy knows the bible so well maybe someone can ask him where it says that the bible is the only source of teaching for the faith
Without Jesus their is no way to heaven, period. He is the way the truth and the life. All have sinned and need the savior. He will baptize you into salvation or with the fire of eternal judgement.
Jesus was spiritual. The Pharisees that had him murdered, were religion. Martin Luther was spiritual. The Roman Catholic church that tried to murder him, was religion. Religion utilizes the "trappings" of Scripture. The spiritually mature (regenerate) know how to live the Scriptures. They derive their life from sound exegesis. Read John 4:24 - "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” NOT RELIGION! Jesus - Truth = the Word of God properly understood. Religion is rules and regulations designed by men as the means to win the approval of God.
I cant believe you guys changed the name
“The Bible is its own defense.” - True. It has stood the test of time.
what if i dont believe in either?
Problem is, the Fall of Adam and Eve was all about them wanting to be wise by knowing good and evil....hmmm.
?
@@MadsenAltamirano Read it:
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Now what God did in response was to make a covering for them out of skin, which implies a sacrifice. This is the Bible, in a nutshell, all the way up to Jesus.
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And *whose sins are covered;
*
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”
No, it was them wanting to be God. That is where pride comes from. We tjink we are above one another by trying to play God... Now you see the problem. How it got fixed was, not that man became God but God became man andvtook our wrath... dig into that for awhile as you think about the human condition.
@@ScrogginHausen I just didn't understand what you meant by the original comment. I know the what Genesis says. Are you saying that knowing good and evil today is bad or what?
Religious people seem to be very unhappy.
Actually it can, it just takes so much effort that it defeats the fundamental purpose of morality: a guide to help people preemptively avoid harmful, or sub-optimal choices.
Case in point, three-year-olds:
They need "moral guidance" but have an attention span too limited to listen to a logical justification of why something is a bad idea. So you use moral concepts to keep them from bad decisions until they can understand when you explain why.
We are gods in embryo, that is why god put us here: to become like him. We have always existed, but God offered us power, authority, stability, physical form, emotions, families, pleasure, possessions, and knowledge -we did not have these things to the degree god does, and some of them we lacked completely. Life is hard, and eternal life is even harder, but the pros far outweigh the cons in both cases.
Families are sacred because they are an essential component of the eternal life that is godhood.
That is NOT what spiritual means. Don’t make up your own definitions for words.
He's got it mixed up, maybe some people think like that but not everyone. I say I'm spiritual not religious and what I mean is that I believe in God and Jesus but I am not needed to go to church or drink wine or eat bread or need to do 100 hail marys to believe in God and be considered living with god. I believe in God I read the bible and try to walk,with Christ but don't need a church or any of that to do it
Well believe it or not, Catholisism isn't the only religion out there. A real church is fellowship and building each other up in Christ, not pulling each other into a cult like Catholisism. I think you should try out some churches that aren't Catholic,because there are many other groups who don't believe in cultic acts like "heil Mary" stuff.
If you believe in Jesus Christ and his Bible, then I'd call you religious. Catholisism isn't equated to religious.
@@MadsenAltamirano I have and the same goes I dont need a church to pray to be in touch with god or to read the bible. I can talk to God anywhere I can pray any where I can be one with god anywhere and every where. I used Catholic terms to make my point, I believe in God, I am not beholding to a group of people who tell me how I should pray or practice my beliefs being religious to me is the same as spiritual. And I don't see your point in telling me to try a different form of religion. It can help being around people that can help you grow spiritualy, and help you learn where you might be in question, but to say because I'm not religious and go to church and ask a priest or whatever for forgiveness I'm being my own god don't make sense maybe some people are but not all was my point. I have had great places of worship I loved going to and people I lived talking with and growing with spiritually. But his argument is to broad and doesnt make sense to a person like me
@@MadsenAltamirano and believe it or not this isnt Ripley, maybe some people are like that but to claim all is stupid. And to even think I didn't know there was more than catholic practices out there proves a lot of my argument for me.
@@MadsenAltamirano religious , like do,something religiously. Go to,church read bible do daily prays or whatever, no I am not I dont go to church I dont pray every day I don't read bible every day.... And just because I ebelieve in Jesus dont make me religious, thats like saying Jews or,Muslims or Buddhist arnt religious
So if predictions proof the god of the bible then the simpsons should be their own religion as well
He's fucking nuts!
As an atheist who is making amends with religion and really starting to see some value in it, this guy is just vomit. Makes me appreciate Jordan Peterson and miss Christopher Hitchens.
yeah Ben has been inviting people who think they "have the answer" but it ends up being some cloaked logic loop that can be easily torn apart.
Check out Vox Day's criticism on Jordan, really good, he's an antinational globalist.
@Nika D Yeah, I would agree with you. But I don't see how else you can speak to a different audience, since the main part of Christianity is belief solely by faith. It's not like there is any other way to speak to outsiders besides the Bible. Christianity starts and begins with it. It's kinda like a trap, because if people try using the Bible, everyone else outside criticizes them, but if they try using other means besides the Bible, nothing gets accomplished for them (and probably get criticized by fellow Christians).
Erik you may find the debate between Peterson and Matt Dillihunty very stimulating.
Why do you prefer Peterson when he basically makes the same argument but even worse? In his debate with Matt Dillahunty, he claimed that all atheists are murderers.
It's funny how people take this whole god is always there thing even though we invented the definition infinite
In the end you preached the whole bible and ever verse in your own prespective each and everyone has a different prespective on life
You only believe because you never questioned it. You did not let your brain do its natural analysis.
You can use reason to justify ant horrible act. For example, a murderer could justify his killing of another human being.
Let's the triggering begins...