Facing the Shadow, Zen master Doshin Roshi
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- čas přidán 20. 10. 2019
- In Jungian psychology, the 'shadow' is all of the things about ourselves that we deny or reject, and integrating those is key to psychological growth. So how do we face and integrate our shadow elements?
Our interview with Zen master Doshin Roshi, 'A Zen master talks about Jordan Peterson and the Shadow', was one of our most viewed films of the last year.
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When he laughs I don't know if I laugh along of if I feel scared.
Who are you?
@@arbez101 Pedro
Lol. Good one. Though, I did like his laugh.
A new kind of bond villain
I got same feeling! Does not seem genuine
"Now we are going nowhere."
Love this. I learn so much from him. And you and your channel as well. It's a painful journey, but necessary. Thank you.
@Frank Arrietta Well, I do take everything with a grain of salt. I'm not big on worshipping. And I know there are a lot of con men and women in the new age world, to be sure. Still...I can gain wisdom or at least some good advice.
As for this 'Zen Master' and his ideas on man made climate change simply being a truth that those below green have no access to . Well, isn't that a smug and convenient assumption. I guess all doubts on the veracity of the theory can now be discounted as coming from lower forms of comprehension..
He also seems to be balls deep in his TDS, which is kind of tragic haha
I wonder about his personal investment in being a dormer.. Is it that if people suffer enough they may turn to spirituality and then he'll have the respect he thinks he deserves. Not sure..
@@michaelmcclure3383 or they are just opportunities he has to realise he fucked up?
Completely agree being close to death can do wonders.
@Frank Arrietta what is doing it 'right'? What is 'perfect peace'?
Speaking tours can be just as playful as anything else. I disagree with their goals and they use a lot of words but find him pretty delightful to listen to.
Landry Prichard
“Now we are going nowhere, finally”.
I love that too.
Yet find it so hard to hold, because it feels so “true”.
Like, “yeah that’s right, now I am going somewhere.”
The "Shadow" is that which is avoided. "Shadow work" is simply to face and integrate that which is avoided.
Who is disliking these videos?!? This man is so refreshing to listen to. Thanks for the content
I have not yet disliked it, but I despised what he said about "liberals". To assume that he is talking of a whole group of people with that Label just makes me think he has No Understanding! I came here because I was alerted to that clip.
I do not know this guy and do not want to! Sorry! Glad he does it for you
A brush with death...for sure propels some! Thanks for bringing him back. We need more shadow work done. I read a quote long ago, don't know by whom but it said to live with Death as your Counsel! Huge impact on my thoughts and behaviors.
Maybe it's just me, but for a guy who professes not knowing, he sure loves to impress how much he knows.
My favourite guest on your show, keep it up!!❤️
Every single time I listen to Doshin, I really feel that "Zen" is a real thing. Like, enough time around him and every agenda will change for the better, guaranteed "or your money back" lol.
It is a real thing. The only way to achieve it is to encounter the shadow. Zen is knowing your capacity for destruction and recognizing that its wrong. Zen is coming to peace with it because anger leads ti power and power leads to pleasure and power causes a loss of power somewhere else. Shadow can be destructive and the moment we see that we could be that type of person we RUN from it, and thats the problem, because it will pop up somewhere else. Its the locked drawer, or the website, or whatever impulsive analog. Zen is uniting with it to seek to end the inner war.
Epic interview! Thank you so much.
Ah Doshin!
So good to hear your words
I’m still assimilating and integrating the wonderful week we were together last month
🙏🏽
Thanks to Alexander for holding the space for this interview. Easy to appreciate the resonance with which you meet Doshin Roshi - like two harmonious tuning forks : always lovely when that happens.
Back once again with the Renegade Master!
Haha! Good one ;)
D for Dilligent. Power to the Pupils! 😁
Frank Arrietta I don't doubt your words, but what manner of suffering do you recommend?
I've been finding I am quite fond of and intrigued by Zen Master Doshin Roshi. It's as if he speaks from within my own being and I hear it. It is quite relevant as if I was remembering what I already knew. I find my Self laughing with him. It's fascinating...however, I am not a Zen Master as he is, or perhaps I am but in waiting? Perhaps if I do go deeper, there I will be as I already am on my path to peace as I fight to get there against my own....oh, I love his laugh. It's contagious when shared, and welcomed so.
Beautiful. 💛
If I had heard that fact about not trying to work with a whole species 30 years ago..... I learnt that truth 10 years ago. Thanks team.
"Green shadow" being a reference to Spiral Dynamics.
Spiral dynamics being a theory of personal and cultural development/emergence. The Green Meme (paradigm) is the highest level of what is called First Tier - but there are things we may not see when acting from Green. For example do we have a need to be a rescuer and in so doing we might keep people or communities in a victim role, rather than furthering liberation as we intend, and personal responsibility, as we ought to intend? I have a strong Green side to my personality but there are these big blind spots in all the paradigms - particularly when we are not operating from so-called Second Tier (a perspective more able to see and utilise all perspectives).
This is wicked cool
Excellent!
Beautiful
I have learned so much of him ...
Doshin Roshi has given here one of the best descriptions of narcissism that I have ever seen.
The gestalt understanding of it has had me baffled for years.
I just heard here one of the most illustrative ways of understanding it via his demonstration with the black & white book.
The concept of first person - second person, etc. was most helpful.
Thank-you 🙏
Wow :) Gratitude 💖 🌟
Awesome
Good answers!! 💖 💖
☝🏼Enjoyable... I always look forward to a new talk from Doshin Roshi, But then I would, ha ha ha!!!
"This awareness was never born and will never die, it changes bodies like you change clothes"
That was so simply said but yet so meaningful, always a pleasure to listen to Doshin
“How does that look?” Great question.
Still sets off all B.S detectors
Must be the green resisting the authoritarian blue ghjehjehje
glamdrag
Is it blue or is it yellow (or turquoise) channeling blue. That is the question!
Hohohohoho
It’s just his shadows. It is no coincidence that shadows are his speciality. He has got his share of them. It is quite brave of him I find. I bet he was a duche when he was younger. In fact I think I’ve heard him say it himself. All his words resonates as truthfull though. We all have the potential for cockyness in us. When I listen to him it is my cocky shadow that light up, so it becomes shadow work for me in that regard. That is what I get from him.
What filthy mixing of metaphors this combination of Jungian ideas, Zen and Spiral Dynamics is. He makes no sense in the end because it almost it's own language he had made up
Well said :-)
Thanks 🙏
thank you for introducing me to this practice.. following a self destruction, this stream of conscience saved me. Bless You
Great Dialogue. He should offer and put together a course on what Integral Theory calls "States of Consciousness" on Integrallife. Being a Zen-Master he would be in the perfect position to explain Zen Buddhism using the framing of the integral model. That would be an absolute killerapp and I would be very interested in studying and buying something like this.
Thus I study Bujutsu.
And work in Advance Life Support and End of Life.
Mushin while maintaining Zanshin, always learning through Shoshin, with the resolve of Fudoshin.
Excellent! More about shadow work please
I believe but I don't know how I'm going to handle it if I'm aware it's going to happen. Leaving my kids is difficult to think about. I've read and seen enough near death experiences to know there is a lot more then we ever have been taught.
When you do a shadow work meditation should you have a break afterwards? Or can you do it every day?
I don't seek fucking up. My arena is full of rigidity, and I have this neuro-diverse thing that makes me careful to avoid mistakes that simply confuse others. Not a good fit to seek. But it is a good representation of all the things I lack. (I can simulate failure easily, but it's not the same.) We are our fears to some extent.
Is there a basic work I can read so I can understand the framework around the concept of "green" and related concepts?
Spiral Dynamics: Mastering values, leadership and change by Beck and Cowan (1996) is THE BIBLE. :-)
10,000 thumbs up.
Does anyone else get the feeling that these two had some unspoken profound understanding passing between them, as if the entire conversation was almost a secondary thing? Just the way that they looked at each other a few times made me think, “these guys definitely know something that I don’t.”
shadow work through hardcore gangsta rap,hard metal & prog rock music: 1996-2019
The Art of Unknowing.
i really enjoy Doshins mannerism and speach technique ... and agree that near death .. truly opens up a persons awareness of the basics of what really matters .. i have been close to that and have felt that awareness to some degree.. why do i feel like at 08:18 .. when Doshin holds up the fist and calls that symbolism arrogance .. it reminds me of marxism and those that fanatically follow without consideration of consequences.
My man
War/death/chaos is fear and contraction within the space between breaths. Enlightenment is the total surrender into that space between breaths. The total simultaneous acceptance and responsibility of everything past/future/present as born of the 'I AM' as conceptual cognition allows us to come into alignment with all seeing/knowing presence. There can be no recognition of light without accepting the intrinsic definition of illuminated form via the shadow.
What about using DMT, does that provide the death experience to wake you up?
Andrew Phoenix No, that’s Joe Rogan’s experience.
Zen riddles are interesting to think about but tend to lack practicality. How to proceed?
Zen riddles/Koans work by activating your learning process
One foot in front of the other
spottedmarley
Before enlightenment, chop wood carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood carry water.
That is the entire point of Zen riddles. To stop you thinking practically. To disconnect you from your current mind and its stories, and give you an opportunity to expand into a broader one. They are very very clever really. And effective, which is why they are still around today.
Isn't system theory located in the Integral (yellow) stage, not green as Roshi stated?
Eske Andersen
Green is theory that a new system could emerge. Eg, the old system is bad, and the new system is good. Racism/sexism etc.
Systems theory (note the plural) is meta theory, it’s an integrated symphony of systems. Each system plays an important role, and will one day be outdated and replaced when no longer functional. Everything will one day be torn down, that’s why things must be built as if they will last for forever. That’s yellow.
In 1970 the fourth perspective was that the earth was going through global freezing.So much for global perspectives.Zen master is full of hot air.
"I, am a zen master"
@Frank Arrietta You very well may be projecting
@@erllar2980 who isn't(?)
@@AKAwisher1 To varying degrees all of us. Some, obviously more than others.
Oh, another climate change denier. You guys are poisoning any chance to save our planet. This country is producing some.of the most anti-intellectuals around. Yay.
Please tell me what Shadow work is?
Doshin does not spend a lot of time hoping that humanity will wake up but he also implies waking up can save us all somehow so that seems like a contradiction. He also said he would not use a bunch of jargon but he did quite a bit. He didn’t offer a description for his term monad. If a monad is needed to wake up than we should know what it is correct?
It seems like the interviewer read his list of questions and asked very few questions for clarification.
Based Zen Master
Would giving up be one too, between messing up and cleaning up? To give up the drive towards folly and the passion for the stumbling block. Then clean up the mess.
Maybe giving up the egoic
Own up
I think the arts dealing partly with collective shadow works. I say partly because much of the arts are biased by their own shadow.
Hahaha I love this Roshi. “I want a brain surgeon that’s not in the fucking up stage”.
💫💕🤝❤
Now say this all again without talking to everyone like they're stupid.
If you don't think you are stupid, he's not talking to you. When you realize you are stupid, listen to this again.
I get his point. His tone is off-putting. Last 10 mins was great.
If his tone is "off-putting", then you're not really listening to *him*.
Your easily offended. You think your stupid.
Got caught in projecting
Master Roshi! Please. Teach me Kamehameha!
Have to say that I have never heard a "Zen Master" verbalize a blatant political bias before. I would have thought that the two (Zen mastery and political bias) would be mutually exclusive yet there it was right there in between the cackling fits.
It’s nice to have Ali do some of the interviews. Do you two, Ali and Doshin think you, either of you have taken this step you are theorizing about to the new stage of humanity so you can help guide another individual in the way of taking the step?
In order to be peaceful, one must be capable of violence. If one is not capable of violence, they cannot be peaceful, they can only be harmless. "Peace" is a choice, "Harmlessness" is a nature and "Violence" is not necessarily physical.
First comment!!
Goosfraba!
His laugh still, at times, seems contrived to me. The first interview made me cringe a few times, this was much better.
Great interview though, I'm still watching til the end.
Why does the interviewer remind mr of Daniel radcliffe?
Words, words, words....and we think we are getting somewhere? HA-HA-HA......
Peepeepoopooooooo
The Zen take on death is interesting, simply because it falls in line with Bushido. The meaning of Bushido is death. Mainly it's death to the ego so one can live life more fully, but not fearing bodily death either. I have no fear of death and in fact, when someone threatened my life I actually invited them to take it because they would be doing me a favour. Needless to say, they adamantly questioned my sanity and left me alive. I went head to head with a 1,900 lb bull who threw me 12 feet into the air, whereupon I came down head first like a lawn dart with my neck folding over and my head laying against my left shoulder. I should have died that day.
All the negative comments tells a story about each of them.Fear of looking within, scared of seeing the shitty shape they're in.
Holons (wholons?) with monads. Cool.
And gonads.
LJR Haha! Yes, we'll need those too. Seems this whole scene is pussyfooting around...
To a psychopath, couldn't their shadow be the evil that they shouldn't integrate?
Good question
Not integrating oneself perpetuates shame, strengthening the shadow.
Fear of psychopathy is rooted in social stigma. Learn more
A psychopath may not have darkness in their shadow. It's whatever personality traits they suppress. Could be ones that allow for intimacy and kindness for the psychopath. They probably would need to suppress those feelings and traits to survive in a world that develops a psychopath.
Miss Moneypenny
Unintegrated Shadow doesn’t go away.
It just goes out of 1st person awareness.
... BUT Nature knows how to work with species
But a species is a group.
Very much have enjoyed this channel and everything it's bringing to the table.
Recently came across this:
czcams.com/video/DPDKJYrCFlI/video.html
Would highly encourage either a watch of the film or a read of the book as it seems very relevant to the topics you're trying to tie together.
One 4th person perspectival view is confrontational. The Bank of International Settlements is the central bank of central banks. Money makes the world go around. The BIS is inviolable by agreement with the neutral Switzerland nation in which it resides. The BIS appoints agents (governmental and nongovernmental) to its FSB Financial Stability Board who define and deploy the "Global Standards and Rules" regarding international governmental action concerning economic/banking matters. Therefore if BIS jurisdiction is national and inviolable, then FSB jurisdiction is pan-national and inviolable. This is a direct invalidation of democracy. It is global and is extant. But law is writing. People are bigger than writing.
Of course there is no way to do shadow work on a collective level. Group work is not collective work, it is inner work done in a group. Only you can evolve your own shadow. Why isn't this obvious?
@Kon Berner. Why indeed. Yet it more and more it seems to me to be the quest of Rebel Wisdom. Kind of their Holy Grail. I think I understand why. Collective salvation is so much more attainable, if it were possible. One person at a time takes a long time, and generations pass, and circumstances change and people start wars and natural calamities happen and people corrupt the original idea, etc., etc.
Just take a look at the history of Christianity. 2000 years of shadow work, with a script, a narrative and an organization, a priesthood, protocols, sacraments, personal incentives, spiritual work, its own genre of art and music, etc., etc. They have had it all. Yet within and without there has been a concerted effort to destroy it and that appears to be succeeding.
@@ljr6723 Christians didn't work on the shadow. The thousands of years of history of inquisitions, pogroms, and persecution of minorities of all kinds is proof enough of that.
@@Magnulus76 I think you made my point rather well. They either did not work on the shadow or did it rather poorly.
I would suggest there were some who did with varying degrees of success. They took the teaching and actually applied it. Some of them were later made saints of the Church.
It is also interesting that a certain segment out of the Reformation decided that shadow work was impossible and against the teachings of the founder. Some have gone so far as to teach that there is no agency involved at all and actions in this world are essentially irrelevant. Ironically most do not live that way either.
@@ljr6723 Most people aren't all that spiritually inclined and have used religion for other purposes as it became a source of power and influence in society.
@@Magnulus76 Yes. That was the impetus behind separation of Church and State I think. That influence is waning somewhat in the west although still strong in some pockets.
The idea of grouping seems to be the problem. Classification. Class struggle, black vs white, dems vs reps, etc.
“Green Shadow” as collective evil.
Emphasizing “taboo against authority”
This is con-artistry speak.
I don't think he is talking about evil. It's about helping progressive people see how they can be more effective (getting to grips with the shadow side). He gives talks at Findhorn for heaven's sake. He wouldn't be invited if the people who used to invite him thought he considered them evil!
I AM ERROR npc
Where did you get the term “evil” from?
Seeing and admitting your flaws on a very deep level is what shadow work is. Pretending to be above this, e.g. talking in a fake soft voice, is denial of shadow. How can you tell when you have made progress on evolving your shadow? You will stop being afraid of positive confrontation and understand how to use assertion to help bring people together. Jesus was said to have aggressively flipped the tables of the money changers. Buddha was aggressively against the caste system in India, which was his place of birth. Recently, Jordan Peterson has given some good examples of his shadow integration, in standing up against being controlled around speech, among other things. He also hasn't seemed to have become too lost in ego as his popularity increased. Agree that Jordan focuses on both growing-up and cleaning-up.
Cleaning-up is the shadow work. Among the most important areas of this is around power. As you grow in consciousness, you become more powerful. There is a temptation both towards abusing your growing power and insight, as well as believing that this making you better than others. These pitfalls you can find hundreds of examples of in "spiritual leaders" falling in and wreaking havoc. Cleaning-up is critical, or your growth with at best stall, and more likely because a negative and harmful influence of abusing power.
I do agree with some things the guest said here: it is essential that you don't get down on yourself for for flaws while seeing your shadow. This is absolutely critical, as if you cannot stand flaws, you will not see flaws.... It is critical to move out of right/wrong space, but this doesn't mean letting go of debate and critical thinking. It means having an intent of driving toward the full truth, instead of "winning" or holding on to your own flaws and misconceptions.... You must evolve the ability to see things more objectively, but this will only happen with the help of evolving shadow, so my suggestion is to always focus on the shadow work. By doing so, not only will the waking-up happen much more easily, but the key point is that it will happen _safely_ . The same goes for growing-up.
Great topic! More of this please!
One might say, "Aren't these new SJW types using aggression to help others?" As Jordan has pointed out, they are often children and no nothing of life. They have not evolved their shadow at all, and are parroting university professors, who themselves have not woken-up, cleaned-up, or even grown-up. It is true that one cannot make rules about what sorts of positive aggression come from what intentions and what consciousness. It can only be _lived_ and _experienced_ as being appropriate and truly helpful, while not having the sense of being polluted by egotistical intentions.
The greatest power does not require followers. The spiritual leaders you mention are something like power vampires, drawing their power from others who willingly offer it to them.
That's no Zen Master... not by a long shot
This approach to Zen feels very much like snake oil.
Maybe you are also an expression of shadow... and maybe you also project shadow onto others too. Seems likely, probable.
I feel sorry for the interviewer, he is probably believing everything this fake master is saying. There are many indications this guy is a con when you understand Buddhism. Also, harsh speech which includes profanity is not in accord with the 10 good deeds. Again, many indications, but the fact this guy is claiming to be a lineage holder dating back from the Buddha himself is so bogus. If you really want to see a Patriarch, look up Master Hsuan Hua, then you will how a lineage holder and Buddhist Master will hold himself. He is a Ch'an Master which is where Japanese Zen is rooted from. I'm sure he would quickly defend his use of profanity but it's just bogus. Shadow work has nothing to do with Buddhism and you can't just create your own version of Buddhism. False Teacher!
Blah blah common sense blah blah life after death is real blah blah common sense. This guy is a quality scam artist, bravo
This guy had some credibility until he started slagging off Trump
You need to clean up the tounge from the heart, not Zen to speak with foul words.
He speaks a lot about nothing as if he knows it well and says a lot about things he knows nothing about. Perhaps he should just say nothing?
Great stuff... but he knows jack shit about Trump 😜
I like Doshin Roshi but he has fallen prey to uniformitarianism as it presents itself in human development and social development theory parallel to the theory of uniformitarianism of earth's geological and evolutionary history. This perspective feeds the idea that 21st century western mankind is at the pinnacle of development of the species so far, and with that comes a certain arrogance with respect to history.
That would be OK, it is a common complaint in academia, except that the idea he espouses, like integral theory, depends upon that structure to cohere.
There is mounting evidence all over the world that previous to the great empires of Babylon, Greece and Rome, there were civilizations with great knowledge, in cosmology alone, knowledge that took us well into the 20th century to re-acquire. And there are indications that such civilization and knowledge was greater the further back we go, well beyond the end of the last ice-age.
The narrow period he cites from our European history may well describe the development of the west as we know it today, but we are only a small slice of humanity, and we do know a great deal circumstantially of the causes or conditioning factors that created the dark ages for example, the climatic cold periods that caused starvation and then plagues, that refocused humanity from philosophy to survival.
But with this mindset he then extrapolates out a 1 through 4th person understanding, the 4th level being the understanding of systems. Would that it were so. His picture of the science wrt to climate change is so wrong it is difficult to know where to begin. It is actually academia that has freeze-framed the science, and that is the snap-shot that gets the imprimatur for any discussion, sadly even this one.
The science itself has moved on as it learns more and more about the systems and the truly wise students and observers factor other systems from other disciplines like physics and geology and cosmology to get the picture of an even bigger system. They are much closer to a real 4th person understanding as I believe Doshin Roshi means it.
But beyond that is the evolutionary understanding we might want to call the 5th person. That is the comprehension of the system of all the systems and the direction it is taking, the recognition of the epigenetic character of our own evolution and all of evolution from the cellular level, scaled out to the cosmos and scaled back into the cell at will, and the discovery of PURPOSE or INTENTION which are other names for that "which is never born," the "not-knowing mind" and then perhaps the final recognition that individuation is the definition of limitation.
And so we will be cold and hungry and thirsty again tomorrow, the identical sensations felt by homo erectus, which will not be denied and which will shunt our 5th person insight way to the back of our mind until they are satisfied. Indeed, should it be the case that natural events are such that the satisfying of hunger, thirst and shelter once more occupy the most of our time daily, the insight might well fade into obscurity in our minds.
So what then is the predicate for 4th or 5th person advancement on a larger scale? Time. Time purchased with freedom and prosperity. To the extent the civilization we have built so far is trashed for the sake of identitarian and equity ideologies, so too will be the hopes of rising above it to another level.
LJ R
If you zoom out far enough, is uniformitarianism not accurate?
Existence starts from non existence, grows to a peak, then returns to nothing.
@@mjmartn You are absolutely right Matt. I was very tired, similar to a vodka-induced state. Read it tonight and hardly understood a word I said. Thanks for pointing it out. I wasn't trying to be obscure, but succeeded nevertheless.
@@LightAndShaddow5 Uniformitarianism is perhaps a good starting point, something to get an inquiry started. It is basic pattern recognition. But as a theory of everything it has tended to get entrenched to the point that it refuses to see or acknowledge evidence of real events that do not conform, anomalies if you wish.
In human history there are some serious anomalies. In geological history there are some serious events that without doubt have interrupted the uniform flow of evolution. For accuracy, if nothing else, we should integrate those anomalies into our understanding, even if we don't yet know the precise causes.
But the biggest problem I think is the tendency toward a certain fatalism. The entire Rebel Wisdom project, I think, is to create a future to our liking, rather that just let it happen.
However, I take your larger Hermetic point of expansion and then retraction, but as the Hermeticists would point out, all in the mind of the ALL.
LJ R
I guess I’d ask, what makes you think Doshin believes that 21st century western man is the principle of development of the species so far?
Along some lines of development that surely IS true (technological for example), and along others it’s surely not (attunement to nature).
I’d even argue that some of the deep human connection practices like circling, are a good candidate for the (current) pinnacle of development of the species, though perhaps the average level of human connection in the individualistic west is quite low compared to the communitarian nature of many eastern family based cultures.
What give you any confidence in believing Doshin doesn’t make such distinctions?
Light And Shadow
Someone deleted our conversation :(
This guy is a joke...next
Nothing is the best guide, not the skill of the tongue, its just cling, if you do speak, try to speak from your heart❤