Something which always sat weirdly with me, is how would such a thing work, having Iga/Koka shinoni in "every clan?" imagine if every country got their spies from the US, then with every country we went to war with... Big problem. For both sides, I'd imagine.
Antony, Another excellent video. I may be able to shed some light on the koka vs koga debate - this may be of particular interest to anyone studying the language. Now, I'm no expert on Japanese, but from my understanding, the hard K sound is present at the beginning of a word. The sound is softened for the following syllables. Koka is technically correct (I've seen it that way on maps), but I think it is sometimes translated as Koga to reflect the diminished second syllable. You see this quite often in locations, like towns that end the suffix -gawa. The name actually references a river (kawa), but since it is in the middle of the word, the k is softened. It's important to note that the difference between the two in Japanese isn't as pronounced as it is in English. The soft K is somewhere in between our K and G. So you could say this is truly a situation that requires a compromise where people meet in the middle. However, I should also point out that there are different kana for ka and ga, so it's not just as simple as pronunciation. I believe softening sounds is something that was standardized more recently in the written language. Since Koka is an older name that is already well established, perhaps they didn't feel the need to update the name in its written form. It's also possible that regional dialect could be a factor.
The train station says it, the local people say it, there is no ga sound shown by the small marks on the documents i have seen, and most samurai do not soften many of those sounds because it is seen as common, in fact i have found many Japanese words that have the second softer sound today did not back then, they were said correctly like a posh english guy would speak over here. So i shall be changing even more words in the future.
@@AntonyCummins Right. It's more of a modern phenomena, particularly in bigger cities. You would see it more with younger people as well. Where the older folks would probably view it as being lazy.
Please translate the Koyo Gunkan into english. Historically accurate or not, it’s an important historical document written by a contemporary of the sengoku period.
They were also the samurai which explains why they were also in the battle ranks. It's not a big mystery. The people from Iga were farmers who didn't want a Daimyo or a shogun over them and Nobunaga ran them over and destroyed them. They were different. Just because there are different names doesn't mean they were different people. It can also mean a different job or position.
Anthony could you elaborate on Samurai Ranks, since there are so many ranks with different privileges, also the difference of ranking between a Samurai and Executioner?
Hey, thanks for answering my question, Antony. I know Ogasawara-sensei says "Iga and Koka are the best shinobi", but how do we know that this information wasn't added AFTER the Gunpo Jiyoshu was finally published in 1653? I'm not debating that Ogasawara-sensei didn't draft the text at an earlier date of 1619, what I am questioning is whether the information on shinobi that appears was originally part of the text in the first place or if it was added in a final draft decades after and then published.
Also, it's tough to say whether Ogasawara-sensei served Tokugawa or Takeda. The Ogasawara were originally descended from the Takeda and served as shugo for the Shinano domain, which eventually got taken over by the main Takeda clan anyways in the Sengoku period, but there was also a branch of the Ogasawara living in Mikawa that served Ieyasu.
That would be a long shot. It would mean that someone who supported the Koka myth edited the book. And added too just that very section. Also it means that in his second book, which i published the parts of they did exactly the same because he says the same thing in there, so someone who supported the myth has to be there when they publish both books and they edit those bits. Seems like a very loving shot and seems more conspiracy theory than history to do all this to all books ever published about the ninja.
@@AntonyCummins No, I was implying that Ogasawara-sensei himself probably had added it in a later draft of it, not necessarily that someone else was like, "HMMM, NOT ENOUGH KOKA PROPAGANDA, NEEDS S'MORE OF THAT STOLEN SHINOBI SEASONING!" I'm questioning how much was added into the overall manual from 1612 to the finalized version in 1653, that is all. I don't know for sure, I'm going off your team's copy of the GJ shinobi material. Since you have it and have a butt ton of mokuroku, I'd figure you would know or would have something that is within the very earliest decades of the Edo period. Blame Turnbull and Nojiri for putting the skepticism in me, they're the ones that pointed out the flaws in the "Iga/Koka legend", haha!
Antony, what is the earliest primary source you have come across the Shinobi existing anywhere in Japan? what century are we talking about when it comes to earliest primary source?
@@AntonyCummins I plan to get all of them eventually, but I have a sword collecting habit lol. Thanks though, by this spring I will have a copy of all of them, I promise.
Shinobi was nothing more, than an job brescription, of coz they deployed wast set of skill, in many area, but the ninjutsu per se, i meancome on, look what is going on in those arts
If I recall right... Yagyu (Munenori? I could be wrong, been a while since I've explained Japanese history to someone) was a somewhat rival to Musashi Miyamoto, who got the assigned billet of teaching the Shogun's family, over Musashi. Hence their legend. If they were famous before that, it's escaping my memory.
Anthony Sforza Yagyu Sekihusai, Their sword school is a branch from the famous Sengoku swordsman Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Nobutsuna. If I can recall Musashi met the elderly Sekihusai.
I've read ninja mostly have the same sword and hand to hand combat skills. However each ninja specialized in different skills as in smokebombs, grappling, blinding, creating diversions, gaining information "stealing in" etc. Then they all worked together to perform certain task. Any truth to that? 🐲
I'd imagine it'd be the difference between what SEALS do, than Special Forces (Green Berets), MARSOC or even Rangers, do. Or even the difference between Marine Recon and Force Recon.
@@AnthonySforza interesting concept, often times different branches of military work together. As one branch may be able to gather Intel another can assess the battle field. Also another can bring in another branch that specializes in the operation at hand. 😊
@@paulzedx636ninja7 Yea, it's kind of like that. Like if you see in the scrolls, the different names for them, those names are in reference to what they do. So yes, you'd have the guys who would do what we traditionally think of "Ninja" doing, like some real Tenshu level stuff, but there were other guys who broke into places or even other guys (The Rappa) who were like (For lack of a better term) Storm Troopers, who would get behind enemy lines in a battle and mess up the enemy's ranks. There were also guys who infiltrated into enemy camps... Maybe they're there to gather Intel, maybe they're there to start fires. Then when the fires are big enough, the other army comes in to take over in the ensuing chaos. There are also other guys, who would infiltrate into a town or whatnot of an enemy and how they'd get in, is a group of them would go in, kill a guy who lived there and then take his body out like "Yea... Our buddy died, but as you can clearly see, there's still five of us." So that one of them could stay behind. Then, while he's there, he's gathering information, spreading propaganda, paying servants to spy on their masters for him, etc etc, as he lives among them all.
@@AnthonySforzathanks for the info I find great interest on the this topic. I've played games like tenchu z, nioh and sekiro all of which are the most accurate games on ninjutsu. Also nioh and sekiro are the most difficult games of all to play. 😊
@@paulzedx636ninja7 Haha, no worries... The more you know, Yea? The thing is, that Anthony's (As well as Eric Shehan, Steve Nojiri and Serge Mol) books are considerably informative. The problem I had coming up with the whole thing, was that when looking at the samurai, this unending ebbing that there had to be more. In that there was a massive gap (at least for me) between the Hagakure and the Go Rin no Sho. Sure, there was the book by Yagyu Munenori, but it didn't quite satisfy what I was looking for (Cool book though), or the Yojokun (A kind of samurai medical book, by Kaibara Ekiken). When Antony started coming out with the Natori books, I jammed through the first one in almost a day, due to it actually being what I'd spent decades looking for. Admittedly, I'm a huge (HUGE) Tenchu fan (Even to the point of getting all the accumulating scroll skills in Fatal Shadows, took me about a year)... But I've never played Nioh or Sekiro. Wasn't there a game that was supposed to be an introduction of Tenchu into the modern consoles, but the company bailed because it'd been so long that they didn't think it'd resonate anymore, so they called it something else? Wait, was it Sekiro?
I’ve been trying to trace three Japanese people and their Jujutsu in the period 1850 to 1915 for more than a decade without success - I love it when people demand specific facts from 500 years ago because what they just heard differs from what they were told by a fraud based on comics - like watching Jesus carrying a ninja-shaped cross.
right right OPS the black work that did the spying go in camp at night in some case kill high ranking samurai be they was samurai 19 41 to 1945 world war 2 was the crazy time carpet bombing and last part of the war atomic bomb destroy most the scrolls ones survive some of was handful u find most them thumb up
Ants high on koka again
Great video Antony.
Something which always sat weirdly with me, is how would such a thing work, having Iga/Koka shinoni in "every clan?" imagine if every country got their spies from the US, then with every country we went to war with... Big problem. For both sides, I'd imagine.
Its hard to imagine, espionage going on, in pre senkogu era Japan
Antony,
Another excellent video. I may be able to shed some light on the koka vs koga debate - this may be of particular interest to anyone studying the language. Now, I'm no expert on Japanese, but from my understanding, the hard K sound is present at the beginning of a word. The sound is softened for the following syllables. Koka is technically correct (I've seen it that way on maps), but I think it is sometimes translated as Koga to reflect the diminished second syllable. You see this quite often in locations, like towns that end the suffix -gawa. The name actually references a river (kawa), but since it is in the middle of the word, the k is softened.
It's important to note that the difference between the two in Japanese isn't as pronounced as it is in English. The soft K is somewhere in between our K and G. So you could say this is truly a situation that requires a compromise where people meet in the middle.
However, I should also point out that there are different kana for ka and ga, so it's not just as simple as pronunciation. I believe softening sounds is something that was standardized more recently in the written language. Since Koka is an older name that is already well established, perhaps they didn't feel the need to update the name in its written form. It's also possible that regional dialect could be a factor.
The train station says it, the local people say it, there is no ga sound shown by the small marks on the documents i have seen, and most samurai do not soften many of those sounds because it is seen as common, in fact i have found many Japanese words that have the second softer sound today did not back then, they were said correctly like a posh english guy would speak over here. So i shall be changing even more words in the future.
@@AntonyCummins Right. It's more of a modern phenomena, particularly in bigger cities. You would see it more with younger people as well. Where the older folks would probably view it as being lazy.
Glory and blessings unto thy
There were battles where iga shinobi and koka shinobi had joined missions together. Interesting huh? Thanks again
Please translate the Koyo Gunkan into english. Historically accurate or not, it’s an important historical document written by a contemporary of the sengoku period.
Please Antony!!! Koyo Gunkan in 2020!! ♥
💪🏾💪🏾
They were also the samurai which explains why they were also in the battle ranks. It's not a big mystery. The people from Iga were farmers who didn't want a Daimyo or a shogun over them and Nobunaga ran them over and destroyed them. They were different. Just because there are different names doesn't mean they were different people. It can also mean a different job or position.
There was more people than just the famrmers
Just out of curiosity, what's your criticism of information coming out of Mie University?
This isn't this complicated, shit started in Africa came through India then into China then into Korea then into Japan
Hi. If I would like to revoke everything I know about Ninjutsu! What are the books I'm starting?
Samurai and Ninja, ninja skills, Iga and Koka ninja skills by Antony Cummins
@@AntonyCummins thanx ninja
Anthony could you elaborate on Samurai Ranks, since there are so many ranks with different privileges, also the difference of ranking between a Samurai and Executioner?
Hey, thanks for answering my question, Antony.
I know Ogasawara-sensei says "Iga and Koka are the best shinobi", but how do we know that this information wasn't added AFTER the Gunpo Jiyoshu was finally published in 1653? I'm not debating that Ogasawara-sensei didn't draft the text at an earlier date of 1619, what I am questioning is whether the information on shinobi that appears was originally part of the text in the first place or if it was added in a final draft decades after and then published.
Also, it's tough to say whether Ogasawara-sensei served Tokugawa or Takeda. The Ogasawara were originally descended from the Takeda and served as shugo for the Shinano domain, which eventually got taken over by the main Takeda clan anyways in the Sengoku period, but there was also a branch of the Ogasawara living in Mikawa that served Ieyasu.
That would be a long shot. It would mean that someone who supported the Koka myth edited the book. And added too just that very section. Also it means that in his second book, which i published the parts of they did exactly the same because he says the same thing in there, so someone who supported the myth has to be there when they publish both books and they edit those bits. Seems like a very loving shot and seems more conspiracy theory than history to do all this to all books ever published about the ninja.
@@AntonyCummins No, I was implying that Ogasawara-sensei himself probably had added it in a later draft of it, not necessarily that someone else was like, "HMMM, NOT ENOUGH KOKA PROPAGANDA, NEEDS S'MORE OF THAT STOLEN SHINOBI SEASONING!" I'm questioning how much was added into the overall manual from 1612 to the finalized version in 1653, that is all. I don't know for sure, I'm going off your team's copy of the GJ shinobi material. Since you have it and have a butt ton of mokuroku, I'd figure you would know or would have something that is within the very earliest decades of the Edo period.
Blame Turnbull and Nojiri for putting the skepticism in me, they're the ones that pointed out the flaws in the "Iga/Koka legend", haha!
I heard they were shaolin ninjas
No that’s not true
@@AntonyCummins oh ok thank you for answering that
Antony, what is the earliest primary source you have come across the Shinobi existing anywhere in Japan? what century are we talking about when it comes to earliest primary source?
You have not read my books! The shame. It’s the Taiheiki. :(
@@AntonyCummins I plan to get all of them eventually, but I have a sword collecting habit lol. Thanks though, by this spring I will have a copy of all of them, I promise.
@@londiniumarmoury7037 please buy the Shoninki, Bansenshukai, Ninpiden, In search of the Ninja and Iga & Koka Ninja Skill first! Values sources!
@@kumashinobi8447 I have a copy of the Bansenshukai, my friend wont give it back to me though, he has my hagakure as well lol
Shinobi was nothing more, than an job brescription, of coz they deployed wast set of skill, in many area, but the ninjutsu per se, i meancome on, look what is going on in those arts
Another Misconception I think is that The Yagyu clan, they are romanticize as Ninjas, Is it to do with their kenjutsu, The Shinkage ryu?
If I recall right... Yagyu (Munenori? I could be wrong, been a while since I've explained Japanese history to someone) was a somewhat rival to Musashi Miyamoto, who got the assigned billet of teaching the Shogun's family, over Musashi. Hence their legend. If they were famous before that, it's escaping my memory.
Anthony Sforza Yagyu Sekihusai, Their sword school is a branch from the famous Sengoku swordsman Kamiizumi Ise no Kami Nobutsuna. If I can recall Musashi met the elderly Sekihusai.
I've read ninja mostly have the same sword and hand to hand combat skills. However each ninja specialized in different skills as in smokebombs, grappling, blinding, creating diversions, gaining information "stealing in" etc. Then they all worked together to perform certain task. Any truth to that? 🐲
I'd imagine it'd be the difference between what SEALS do, than Special Forces (Green Berets), MARSOC or even Rangers, do. Or even the difference between Marine Recon and Force Recon.
@@AnthonySforza interesting concept, often times different branches of military work together. As one branch may be able to gather Intel another can assess the battle field. Also another can bring in another branch that specializes in the operation at hand. 😊
@@paulzedx636ninja7
Yea, it's kind of like that. Like if you see in the scrolls, the different names for them, those names are in reference to what they do. So yes, you'd have the guys who would do what we traditionally think of "Ninja" doing, like some real Tenshu level stuff, but there were other guys who broke into places or even other guys (The Rappa) who were like (For lack of a better term) Storm Troopers, who would get behind enemy lines in a battle and mess up the enemy's ranks.
There were also guys who infiltrated into enemy camps... Maybe they're there to gather Intel, maybe they're there to start fires. Then when the fires are big enough, the other army comes in to take over in the ensuing chaos.
There are also other guys, who would infiltrate into a town or whatnot of an enemy and how they'd get in, is a group of them would go in, kill a guy who lived there and then take his body out like "Yea... Our buddy died, but as you can clearly see, there's still five of us." So that one of them could stay behind. Then, while he's there, he's gathering information, spreading propaganda, paying servants to spy on their masters for him, etc etc, as he lives among them all.
@@AnthonySforzathanks for the info I find great interest on the this topic. I've played games like tenchu z, nioh and sekiro all of which are the most accurate games on ninjutsu. Also nioh and sekiro are the most difficult games of all to play. 😊
@@paulzedx636ninja7
Haha, no worries... The more you know, Yea? The thing is, that Anthony's (As well as Eric Shehan, Steve Nojiri and Serge Mol) books are considerably informative. The problem I had coming up with the whole thing, was that when looking at the samurai, this unending ebbing that there had to be more. In that there was a massive gap (at least for me) between the Hagakure and the Go Rin no Sho. Sure, there was the book by Yagyu Munenori, but it didn't quite satisfy what I was looking for (Cool book though), or the Yojokun (A kind of samurai medical book, by Kaibara Ekiken). When Antony started coming out with the Natori books, I jammed through the first one in almost a day, due to it actually being what I'd spent decades looking for.
Admittedly, I'm a huge (HUGE) Tenchu fan (Even to the point of getting all the accumulating scroll skills in Fatal Shadows, took me about a year)... But I've never played Nioh or Sekiro. Wasn't there a game that was supposed to be an introduction of Tenchu into the modern consoles, but the company bailed because it'd been so long that they didn't think it'd resonate anymore, so they called it something else? Wait, was it Sekiro?
I’ve been trying to trace three Japanese people and their Jujutsu in the period 1850 to 1915 for more than a decade without success - I love it when people demand specific facts from 500 years ago because what they just heard differs from what they were told by a fraud based on comics - like watching Jesus carrying a ninja-shaped cross.
right right OPS the black work that did the spying go in camp at night in some case kill high ranking samurai be they was samurai 19 41 to 1945 world war 2 was the crazy time carpet bombing and last part of the war atomic bomb destroy most the scrolls ones survive some of was handful u find most them thumb up