High-Ratio 3D Printer EXTRUDERS - MUST HAVE? or STUPID?
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
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👉🏻 In this video I am testing if high ratio 3D printer extruders are viable or it is just stupid as currently nobody in the 3D printing market uses ratios that are so high. I made multiple test prints, comparisons, and full calculations to determine that and the results might surprise you.
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🕗 TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - The question
01:06 - The 21.6:1 ratio extruder
01.46 - So much prep work...
03:24 - POM vs LR, input shaping, test prints, and first layer consistency
04:00 - TESTING & EXPLANATION
08:55 - Final thoughts
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ABOUT DISASSEMBLING STEPPER MOTORS:
"In principle, common stepping motors can be divided into two types: reactive stepping motor and hybrid stepping motor. The reactive stepping motor can be disassembled, while the hybrid stepping motor must not be disassembled. The mixed type mainly uses strong magnetic aluminum nickel cobalt material, which is high temperature resistant and does not demagnetize at high temperature. It is charged to saturated state during production. If it is disassembled, the magnetic circuit will no longer be closed, and the magnetic core will weaken. Special magnetizing equipment is required, which can not be solved by ordinary people. If neodymium iron boron material is used, it is not a big problem to disassemble it."
This is a shortened quote from casunsteppermotor.com website.
Awesome video. One thing though.. we should not care about gear ratio ... we should care about final drive on the system... the steps per mm is what matters to compare :)
Thanks! Yeah, it might be okay for identical extruders, but comparing different ones doesn't make sense at all... everyone saying this has a very good point. Steps per mm are definitely the way to go.
@@PrintingPerspective either way.. i love your videos. Very well made and interesting :) im subscribed and a fan
Thanks, it means a lot coming from you :) They take a f-ton of time and effort to make ;D but at least I love making them.
@@PrintingPerspective it really is a lot of effort. Keep them coming brother :)
The reflected torque is indeed reduced by the square of the gear ratio, but don’t forget that you motor inertia didn’t go down and you will need to accelerate at a much higher rate.
That's true. But then I could use a smaller stepper with lower inertia, you know. IMO it is all about balancing stuff for the required extrusion force, speeds and accels.
Good video as always.
Personally i prefer to compare extruders not by gear ratio, but by steps per mm or rotation distance. That gives you a clear loom of how a gearbox actually works as the output isnt always the same. As example a lgx and bmg both claim a 3 to 1 gear ratio, which is first of all nonsense, and second the lgx has lower e steps values than a bmg. The lgx has a two stage reduction rather than single stage like the bmg because of the large drive gears. So the 3 to 1 gear ratio only applies to one stage of the lgxs gearing, i dont know the exact teeth count, but if i had to guess it would be the first stage, stepper motor to intermediate gear. After that you still have the stage intermediate gear to feed gear. So overall a pretty high gear ratio (a 3 to 1 and another) but have pretty comparable overall reduction.
This is the same reason why belted z isnt more accurate or faster than leadscrew z, it depends fully on the steps per mm/rotation distance. I was going through a voron trident config and noticed that it had much lower z speed than a 2.4, 30mm/s vs 8mm/s, the comment after that said because leadscrew. BS i call it. I got 25mm/s in stealthchop and with 1k acceleration for out of it, with the fat 350mm bed
Just want to point this out:
czcams.com/video/S-om0MPE5qI/video.html
belted z can go VERY fast, I don't think it's feasible to reach these speeds with leadscrews. (I mean everything is possible of course).
But I'll admit that belted z might not have advantages during printing (in my experience), except for potentially avoiding z-wobble, and not wearing like leadscrews might do.
Thanks. Yup, that makes sense as it would give a more apples to apples comparison. And about belt vs leadscrew, you are not wrong you can drive them fast too. Question is should you? Higher accels higher wear on a friction based system. But then z belts needs quite high tension so you are sacrificing your idler pulleys... There are so much nuances lol.
@@PrintingPerspective as always everything has advantages and disadvantages. Im using POM nuts with non coated leadscrews like you once tested in a video is a agree that this is the best compromise between low friction and accuracy.
Hi, i just watched many of your videos, nice channel :) I have an old P3Steel printer based on prusa i3 wich is 12V, are there any good electronic kits to buy out there or should i buy a full 3d printer and upgrade it myself?
I recently upgraded to large gear extruder stealthburner and the extrusion consistency is much better than even the integrated gears from mellow. Definitely recommend using large gear extruders over smaller ones for layer quality
Excellent videos as always!
Thank you! Cheers!
Regarding disassembling steppers: I have a LDO 20mm extruder motor which I've disassembled and assembled atleast 3 times. Can't tell a difference, still get around 40mm³/s out of it.
I'm here in 2024 still using a 1:1 direct drive extruder like its 2014 😅
One thing i noticed from my first printer is that the idler arm doesn't sit even with the extruder gear, rides a little lower. For the longest i thought it was just a mistake, but a few years ago i noticed the filament that rides though and gets the gear markings curls away from said markings. This is important because i found out it binds the filament. So instead of installing a H2 V2S Revo i just bought at the time when it was new (like 3 years ago) i simply slapped on the old extruder arm from my Replicator Dual and started to do some flow tests. Immediately noticed it was able to hit 22mm3s flow rate with a Frankenstein'ed volcano V6 half copper and hardened tip i made, up from 16mm3s. Then noticed there was slight deformation from the V shaped idle bearing when printing ABS enclosed so i designed a whole new arm with a larger U shaped idle bearing and then it went up to 26mm3s. Then coupled with the Microswiss CM2 hybrid copper Volcano nozzle with a small hardened tip, I'm printing everything at 26mm3s at low temps and can easily do 32mm3s with higher temps (within spec). I'm able to print at 40mm3s 10c over at 250mm/s 4K acceleration if i want to push it
This is using a Nema17 42x30 StepperOnline motor, even tried a 42x23 for fun.. limited to about 20mm3s flow. Original 42x36mm would start shredding the filament, while the 42x30 does show signs of slippage on the filament when pushed too much, it starts skipping.. which IMO is better to have at the limit, no more having to clean filament chunks.
My thesis being that filament binds on the walls, more so after heat soak. If you can feed the filament in "straighter" by compensating for the curl it will help avoid said binding
well I got question for you
i am using ender 3 pro with bowden but in future i will change hotend to some longer for flow and for now i still have problem i am using lerdge extruder gear on stock extruder block so whenever so much rectraction came the filament strips easily because of sharp teeth
so i am planning planning buying titan fake or other model fake or i will just buy one large gear that wouldn't strip filament but still gonna be one gear drive so i am thinking would it work or shall i buy reduction extruder?
When you are comparing ratios of extruders, are you taking the filament drive gear diameter into account? That 7.5:1 Orbiter ratio is just the ratio of the gearbox and/or differential if it were a car. But it has larger filament drive gears (wheels if it were a car) and thus not as much overall reduction when compared to Sherpa type extruders with 5:1 gearing and smaller filament drive gears.
I don't even have a 3d-printer but still loves your videos :)
your channel is cool and has a lot of cool ideas to try! I wish you tried your ideas on something like a voron or ratrig tho!
Wasn’t the video before that about Voron?
oh yeah, but I meant the actual tests done on them!@@ferdinandhenkel4567
Thanks, yeah, I want to do that more.
Is there a stl file for the linear rail x bracket? I tried using the discord but I can’t stand using it, it makes me login everytime I click a link and I don’t really understand it. Not sure if a step file would help me, I’m not really good at the software end of FDM printing.
Great job on the video! Been considering this as I seem to have reached the limit of my extruder.
I would love to see this test with a higher jerk value (can't think of the klipper term atm) and a lower smooth_time value (which should improve th initial underextrusion you were getting). Both cause the extruser to have to accelerate faster. Smaller smooth times make a difference on high accel prints. I had to decrease the value on my bowden setup to make it work well because I print between 30k and 100k and it looks way better at 0.035 than 0.04.
I think you mean Square Corner Velocity.
@@spectermk1 there it is!
At some point I will need to play with those just for curiosity. Usually I print way slower as layer adhesion is the priority.
I would be very interested to see if there is any impact on extrusion consistency with large gear extruders. 0.1mm of extruder gear runout has much less of an effect on extrusion if the extruder gear has a 10mm radius, than if it has a 3mm radius.
Ouch, taking out a stepper motors rotor renders it unusable!
Very informative video, as usual, thank you.
How so?
@@gqinc1202 it de-magnetizes so it has no more torque
@@toma.cnc1 How so ? He isn´t heating it or beating it up. The motor needed to be magnetised before it was assembled as well, so how did the factory manage to not de-magnetize it then ?
@@sierraecho884 Stepper motors are magnetized after being fully assembled, do a search, plenty of info on youtube.
@@sierraecho884 Removing the rotor from its stack can cause the loss of magnetism and lead to misalignment as the magnetic circuit via the stator was not there to act as a magnetic keeper.They get magnetised after being assembled.
Neat! Now I gotta figure out the best way to add rails to my OG M5
I’ve found that the x axis on my m5c is the only axis that needs a rail, the y axis has routed channels that fit the Pom wheels way better than normal extrusions and the z axis is a greased plastic slide mechanism which is pretty tight and accurate, but the X axis wears the lower wheel incredibly fast and it has a tiny bit of movement from the wheel bearings.
Thank You! :)
Is this videos main focus to establish if there is an e acceleration bottleneck that is alleviated by the high gear ratio? They went with bigger gears, they need more torque, they don't want a bigger (heavier)motor, they operate a smaller motor at a higher rpm. Did that Haldis have a better flow error chart? Is it motor skipping or gear traction loss?
Steppers loses torque with speed so needing to accelerate twice as fast to twice the speed can be challenging. Flow chart was similar but it had a slightly higher flow hotend. Motor skipping, it is almost impossible to get slip with big filament drive gears.
@@PrintingPerspective Can you increase stepper current with klipper? Its the same size gears and looks like the same unmodified flow as my LGX, but it looks heavier. Maybe if you could increase amps then it would be worth the extra weight.
shouldn't it be steps per mm? ratio doesn't matter much if your final drive gear isnt taken into account...
I compared the hgx lite earlier against mt printed sherpa with clone gears.. smoked the hgx!
Reliability probably part of the reason -> Nozzle clogging? Bigger changes it just pushes it out
Use larger diameter filament.
No thanks ;D
The main question is, why do you need that high of a force to extrude ? A 3D printer is not a router, you usually don´t need high forces and higher forces wear out the machine faster.
When does the filament swell due too too much speed ? This is also pretty interesting, there is no point in extruding faster if you get filament swell and inaccuracies. This means you will need some type of compensation again. The faster you go the more forms of compensations you need to account for all sorts of effects.
A beefy extruder is needed to corral flexible filaments. A soft TPU actually exerts a spring-like force that has to be overcome to pull it into the extruder. Boden-style extruders have an even tougher time, because not only is the filament pulling like taffy on the input, it's compressing like jello on the output.
@@seanwoods647 Hmm for TPU a PTFE tube up to the nozzle is probably the best solution, the high force probably won´t change the behavior. The extruder geometry does, you need more grip not more force. At least not that much force.
Bowden type extruder for TPU is not a good idea for that reason true. However I don´t think the amount of force is the problem it´s the friction and the elasticity.
Well you shouldn't, unless you're using smaller nozzles or like CHT clones or other reasons. Higher extrusion force just compensate for hotend's declining ability with higher speeds to melt the plastic that needs way more force to be pushed out, not that it is a good thing or anything... But I really like the higher ratio idea on big filament drive gears. But 15:1 would be plenty IMO.
@@PrintingPerspective "...Higher extrusion force just compensate for hotend's declining ability with higher speeds to melt the plastic ..." Exactly! It´s a brute force solution for a root problem with a completely different cause.
The main advantage is probably weight saving by the motor. Instead of using a nema 17 you could use a nema 14 round pancacke style or similar.
What ratio would be good for this stepper motor? 20BYGH24
Nema 8 has basically no torque, this is the case where you would need something like 20:1 or so. You can simply calculate it yourself, look up the torque for the motor and try a gearing calculator.
"No pun intended,"
My stoned self: "Wait that's not a pun though..."
"WAIT IS THAT THE JOKE?!"
I feel like this situation is much like the abl accuracy hunt. Yes, there are probes out there that can be even more accurate and with less deviation, but in fdm printing that extra precision makes no difference and isn't necessary.
Likewise, these big gear reductions are better, but unnecessary. No home printer is going so fast that regular gears can't keep up.
If you want 100 mm³/s through a nozzle that can give you decent precision, you're going to need *a lot* of force...
@@daliasprints9798 Yes, you will. And printing at 500mm/s with a 0.2mm layer height and 0.4mm nozzle it will only take 40 cubic mm/s of flow. That's only in the straight and fast parts as acceleration limits speed during intricate prints and corners. During slower bits you need way less.
And no matter how hard your gears can push, the limiting factor is how fast the plastic can melt. The hotend is more important. If you push the plastic before it can melt you don't have a print. Nothing sticks together. The graphs in the video show that both the high gear reduction and regular are well below their torque limits.
It's like having a sports car on the highway. Yeah, it's cool that it can go 200mph, but it's limited so it can't go any faster than my commuter car with a max speed of 100mph, since the speed limit is 60mph
@@Lethal_Bite I said 100 mm³/s not 40 mm³/s. Fluid dynamics of the molten plastic, not melt rate, are dominant way before that point. You can get unlimited melt rate just by lengthening the melt zone, etc., but the fluid dynamic limits are much more fundamental. We already have hotends that can easily melt over 150 mm³/s, but that's of limited usefulness if you need a giant 1.0 mm or even 1.8 mm nozzle to get it out, since all you can print is big imprecise ugly stuff.
Yeah I always keep asking "Why" ? Why would you need it ?
@@daliasprints9798 How do you avooit filament swelling then ? If you brute force the shit out of the nozzle you get the swell so you need some new type of compensation once again. IDK 20:1 really does not seem to be necessary
This makes no difference. Gear ratio isn't just a ratio between smaller and larger meshed gears. There are other mechanical linkages in this system. like between the drive gears and the filament. Because these extruders use larger drive gears, The gear ratio between the drive gears and the filament is lower and when this value is multiplied by the 20-1 (or some like that) gear ratio, the value gets much lower and close to what was typical on older extruder systems. (the overall gearing of the system would be {gear ratio}/{rotation distance}. This should be the metric that we compare between different extruders). If we neglect the inefficiency in gear meshings, If the filament is moving at the same speed and with the same accelerations, The load on the motor would pretty much be the same. The only thing that changes is where on the torque-speed curve we hit the motor and this could be specifically designed for and since based on your calculations, we're not even close to motor limits, we'd better optimize for more efficient meshings (which in turn could even mean less load on the motor for the same performance) in the system, since the first gearing is between two hard materials and much more efficient than the meshing between the drive gear and the filament, It's only logical to take some load off the filament and add it to the first gearing and that's why everyone's moving toward higher gear ratio while increasing extruder's rotation distance.
So there's one big glaring issue with this whole thing. All the work you did isn't relevant because the extruder gear is much larger. Steps per mm of filament moved is what matters. I'm not sure what the numbers are but id guess the gear ratios are more or less the same given the difference in the final diameter of the drive wheels. Just as a jeep with 3.55 gearing and 28" tires goes the same speed at the same rpm as a jeep with 4.10 gearing and 31" tires.
3:33 look at this atrocious graph and how it was reduced … by 2 orders of magnitude … up
First?
Might be controversial comment, but I think you should change your dialogue delivery. Your accent is very different (which is not a problem), but when you try to deliver dialogues like natural english speakers I find it really difficult to keep up with what you are saying. I really value your videos and I think you will do better if you try to deliver dialogue as you normally speak. Your content is good enough, you don't need to polish it with cool dialogue delivery.