What a treat to see such a thoroughly detailed and well researched video about my very very very local area! (The street I grew up on got mentioned!!) I’ve given this old line a lot of thought. While it’s always sad to see a railway closed, with my sensible hat on, this does seem to be one of the very few cases where Beeching was right to close it. Having to change at Harrow and Wealdstone to get to central London would never be able to compete with the Jubilee line. Also, the 186 is more frequent (and, from what I’ve read, probably faster!) than the Rattler ever was. Thanks for making such a great video! 🙂
Thank you so much! I’ve loved watching your content from a young age and so for you to leave a comment on one of my videos has made me feel quite starstruck to say the least 🤣 Compared to the previous episode in my series it’s definitely one that we could probably do without…although I do have to play devils advocate sometimes and suggest things that might go against my own personal opinion 😂 The 186 is an excellent route, goes to lots of places and links Belmont up to the Northern Line, Metropolitan Line, all the services from H&W and Chiltern Railways from various stations. So yes, Belmont has got pretty good transport links in that regard. Thanks so much for leaving a comment! :D
We used to know it as the The Belmont Rattler in the 1950's and often played on the almost disused track. I can recall seeing the odd goods train, just a couple of carriages.
@@somenorthlondoner The name probably depended on which station you lived closer to and some folks probably just called it "The Rattler" and from what I recall nothing moved very quick on that line, unless it was little kids legging-it out of sight of the odd staff member at the Stanmore end of the line. Rare but not unknown scary creatures!
I remember playing on the remnants of the Rattler as a child, before it was a trail. With my friends, I would cycle up from Kenton Park to Belmont to thrash a few hundred yards through the jungle towards Stanmore. My first Saturday job was with Donaldsons Estate Agents on Belmont Circle
we used to play near by and on and around the Schweppes factory . Happy days as a child ...room for adventure. I always thought the name " Rattler" was cos we used to collect slow- worms there and slow worms were little ' rattler like snakes' I learnt alot by this video. enjoyed my primary school years having carefree fun and walking for miles . Thank you
An outlandish proposal, but I would like to turn it into a tube line & extend it underground to connect Harrow & Wealdstone to Harrow-on-the-Hill (because getting between the two is a pain). From Harrow, it should continue to Roxeth, South Harrow, Northolt Park and Greenford to take over the shuttle to West Ealing, then through a new tunnel under Haven Green to connect with the Ealing Broadway branch of the District line. Or alternatively from Northolt Park to Northolt, Target, Yeading, Willow Tree, Hayes Bridge and Southall, then above-ground to Windmill Park, Trumpers Crossing, Wyke Green and Brentford West.
I would reopen the line as a tramway. This tramway would stretch from Harrow & Wealdstone/Bushey on the west to Finsbury Park/Alexandra Palace on the east. The tramway would take the former platform at Harrow & Wealdstone and split it into two like at Wimbledon. The Harrow branch would call at the intermediate stops of Bryton Park, Belmont & Stanmore Village. The Bushey Branch would called at the intermediate stops of The Grange, Melbourne Road, High Bushey, The Common and Stanmore Hill. The Harrow and Bushey branches would join up at a junction by the interchange by Sainsbury near Stanmore Hill. The Finsbury Park branch would call at the intermediate stations of Stroud Green, Ashmount, Stanhope Road and Highgate. The Alexandra Palace branch would have stations at Cranley Green, Muswell Hill and Alexandra Park. The Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace branch would join up at a junction by Highgate Depot. Where they would run togther and calling at the intermediate stations of: East Finchley, Long Lane Pasture, Finchley Central, Dollis Brook, Mill Hill East, Chase Lodge, Mill Hill Broadway, Edgware Broadway, Park Grove and Stanmore. There would be a possibility of also doing a Edgware Town branch would would come off the joint running between Park Grove and Edgware Broadway on a triangle Junction. The Edgware Town Branch would have intermediate stations at Edgware, Holland House, London Gateway, Elstree Fields, Elstree & Borehamwood, Elstree Studio, Elstree Industrial, Hertsmere and Hertsmere North. The tramway would reuse the old tunnels by Highgate as well as the Northern Heights alignment. It would take over the Northern Line Mill Hill East Branch. There would be an extra pair tracks built for tram between Finchley Central and Finchley East. Each service would operate at 4tph off peak and 6tph in the peak, so there would be four services without the Edgware town branch. With the Edgware Town Branch there would be eight services running at 4tph all day due to the mixed traffic nature of the line it is no possible to run at more than 24tph on the streets with traffic hence to provide 12tph on each branch while providing a direct link to branches on the without Edgeware Town and three branches with Edgeware Town. If you would like the maps, I made please do feel free ask then I can send them across in the best way.
I worked as a surveyor for Harrow Council in the 1980s and had a bit to do with setting up the Belmont Trail walkway (keeping the route free of dumping and encroachments at that stage). You mention that the trail stops at Vernon Drive and that was the site of a rare foot-crossing on London's railways, allowing walkers to access Wemborough Road.
Fantastic, well researched video. I’ve done extensive reading about this former line to learn more about local history. You’ve summed it up so well. Thank you.
I hope you get to make a video on the Croxley and Rickmansworth lines that were almost reopened as part of the plan to extend the Met to an actually useful station in Watford. The whole story of the Met and LNWR in the Watford area is fascinating to me and I was studying near there back in 2010-13 when the plan to extend the Met looked like it might go ahead. Also, the Alban Way is a great orbital route that might warrant a video; I've walked it and it's a nice hike (except for the bit where the M1 cuts across your path).
They’re in the plans for sure…although my plans do move around a fair bit in terms of ordering every now and again 😂 Yes the Alban Way would make for a good video I think, especially with the paralleling bus route operated by Uno which I cannot remember the number of! But would make for an interesting idea for sure
@@somenorthlondoner Also, I may have missed it but I'm not sure it was clear in your video why the branch to Stanmore was built such that it joined H&W station facing north. The same was true of the Croxley branches at Watford so maybe they just liked making life difficult for their customers but the Met figured out how to build branches. But then, is there anything the Met didn't get right?
Great video..Belmont history in particular.. except for locals it's hard to believe the line was built in the first place!...I'm close to Harrow leisure centre (Trial beginning)- which is relatively poorly served - As u said buses are ok - also incl 324 at Stanmore & H19 at Belmont. Any time delays can be offset by fast trains to Central London
Yes definitely and that’s cool! I take it you walk along the Belmont Trail a fair bit then? Admittedly whilst filming I grabbed a Greggs in HotH and once I’d acquired it I thought of catching an H9/10 up to the start of the trail but very glad I didn’t as it had occurred to me that it almost reaches Kingsbury and takes in Northwick Park H so would’ve been quite the detour!
@@somenorthlondoner ,Ha ha- I made that H9 mistake recently. Trail ? Yes but only up to Belmont Costa coffee!.. You made me realise that the line to Stanmore made a lot of sense in 1890 - It’s about 3 miles & has quite a noticeable incline. Ok for a horse but would have been a tiring evening walk. - Thanks again for the great info.
hi there, good video, i have all the books on this line which are hard to get now,the "rattler was the DMU" not the steam loco and rolling stock,all first generation dmu's used to rattle.the dmu on this line was a park royal 2 car set,final service from belmont wasthe13,39 to harrow,in 1951 a fowler2-6-2t locowas used.these were based at watford shed,if you were lucky a Bowden- Cooke 0-8-0 tank loco could be seen running up to stanmore,
Interesting - I hadn't realised it had ever had a service every 10 minutes, even in the peaks! As you say, it would probably be difficult to rebuild the line as it was. The least good bit of the transport network in the area is getting from H&W to HotH - there are frequent buses, but ithey take ages for the less than two miles, which a rail connection would probably do in three minutes. But that would have to be underground! Perhaps it might be possible as part of a new/re-opened north London orbital rail route: Harrow-on-the-Hill > H&W > Stanmore (Jub) > Edgware > Mill Hilll B'way (T-link/WLO) > Mill Hill E > Finchley Ctrl > E.Finchley > Highgate (surface level) > Crouch End > Stroud Gn > Finsbury Pk. Personally I'd then join it to the Piccadilly, giving that line two branches at its north-east end, to match its two branches in the west; that would also make any tunnelling cheaper - tube sized. But it could also join the Overground - perhaps re-using the Palace Gates line. Look forward to your next video
It’s surprising for sure, particularly for 100 years ago. It’s a shame that there couldn’t have been a Watford High St style deviation towards HotH from the DC line but I suppose it’s on the wrong side of the mainline for that and so would’ve been ridiculously expensive to have tried burrowing. I think it would be a nice addition to a revitalised Northern Heights project but getting the bits of alignment still intact going again (MHE to Copthall, MHB to Edgware, Parkland Walk) would be a challenge in itself!
I think if the funds were with governments TFL and local council , as London is expanding a lot of lines and railways stations should reopened, but recently as one or two lines across the country have been put back into the network! As for this, line could become part of the overground service link with Willesden via Bakerloo branch ? There purposals to build on fright line around Neasden to west London! It's possible and with pollution of vehicles case for the Mayor maybe put it to TFL?
I don’t think there’s really much point in doing this but there should be more projects like the West London Orbital looked at. Theres a video about it on my channel in fact!
What a treat to see such a thoroughly detailed and well researched video about my very very very local area! (The street I grew up on got mentioned!!)
I’ve given this old line a lot of thought. While it’s always sad to see a railway closed, with my sensible hat on, this does seem to be one of the very few cases where Beeching was right to close it. Having to change at Harrow and Wealdstone to get to central London would never be able to compete with the Jubilee line. Also, the 186 is more frequent (and, from what I’ve read, probably faster!) than the Rattler ever was.
Thanks for making such a great video! 🙂
Thank you so much! I’ve loved watching your content from a young age and so for you to leave a comment on one of my videos has made me feel quite starstruck to say the least 🤣
Compared to the previous episode in my series it’s definitely one that we could probably do without…although I do have to play devils advocate sometimes and suggest things that might go against my own personal opinion 😂
The 186 is an excellent route, goes to lots of places and links Belmont up to the Northern Line, Metropolitan Line, all the services from H&W and Chiltern Railways from various stations. So yes, Belmont has got pretty good transport links in that regard.
Thanks so much for leaving a comment! :D
jay foreman jumpscare
I went everywhere on the Belmont Rattler, lived in the same road as it! Very sad when it closed in October 1964.
We used to know it as the The Belmont Rattler in the 1950's and often played on the almost disused track. I can recall seeing the odd goods train, just a couple of carriages.
Oh nice! Interesting that it had two nicknames then, although in the 50s given for the best part of the decade it only went to Belmont, it makes sense
@@somenorthlondoner The name probably depended on which station you lived closer to and some folks probably just called it "The Rattler" and from what I recall nothing moved very quick on that line, unless it was little kids legging-it out of sight of the odd staff member at the Stanmore end of the line. Rare but not unknown scary creatures!
I remember playing on the remnants of the Rattler as a child, before it was a trail.
With my friends, I would cycle up from Kenton Park to Belmont to thrash a few hundred yards through the jungle towards Stanmore.
My first Saturday job was with Donaldsons Estate Agents on Belmont Circle
Oh nice!
we used to play near by and on and around the Schweppes factory . Happy days as a child ...room for adventure. I always thought the name " Rattler" was cos we used to collect slow- worms there and slow worms were little ' rattler like snakes' I learnt alot by this video. enjoyed my primary school years having carefree fun and walking for miles . Thank you
An outlandish proposal, but I would like to turn it into a tube line & extend it underground to connect Harrow & Wealdstone to Harrow-on-the-Hill (because getting between the two is a pain).
From Harrow, it should continue to Roxeth, South Harrow, Northolt Park and Greenford to take over the shuttle to West Ealing, then through a new tunnel under Haven Green to connect with the Ealing Broadway branch of the District line.
Or alternatively from Northolt Park to Northolt, Target, Yeading, Willow Tree, Hayes Bridge and Southall, then above-ground to Windmill Park, Trumpers Crossing, Wyke Green and Brentford West.
I would reopen the line as a tramway. This tramway would stretch from Harrow & Wealdstone/Bushey on the west to Finsbury Park/Alexandra Palace on the east. The tramway would take the former platform at Harrow & Wealdstone and split it into two like at Wimbledon. The Harrow branch would call at the intermediate stops of Bryton Park, Belmont & Stanmore Village. The Bushey Branch would called at the intermediate stops of The Grange, Melbourne Road, High Bushey, The Common and Stanmore Hill. The Harrow and Bushey branches would join up at a junction by the interchange by Sainsbury near Stanmore Hill. The Finsbury Park branch would call at the intermediate stations of Stroud Green, Ashmount, Stanhope Road and Highgate. The Alexandra Palace branch would have stations at Cranley Green, Muswell Hill and Alexandra Park. The Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace branch would join up at a junction by Highgate Depot. Where they would run togther and calling at the intermediate stations of: East Finchley, Long Lane Pasture, Finchley Central, Dollis Brook, Mill Hill East, Chase Lodge, Mill Hill Broadway, Edgware Broadway, Park Grove and Stanmore. There would be a possibility of also doing a Edgware Town branch would would come off the joint running between Park Grove and Edgware Broadway on a triangle Junction. The Edgware Town Branch would have intermediate stations at Edgware, Holland House, London Gateway, Elstree Fields, Elstree & Borehamwood, Elstree Studio, Elstree Industrial, Hertsmere and Hertsmere North. The tramway would reuse the old tunnels by Highgate as well as the Northern Heights alignment. It would take over the Northern Line Mill Hill East Branch. There would be an extra pair tracks built for tram between Finchley Central and Finchley East. Each service would operate at 4tph off peak and 6tph in the peak, so there would be four services without the Edgware town branch. With the Edgware Town Branch there would be eight services running at 4tph all day due to the mixed traffic nature of the line it is no possible to run at more than 24tph on the streets with traffic hence to provide 12tph on each branch while providing a direct link to branches on the without Edgeware Town and three branches with Edgeware Town. If you would like the maps, I made please do feel free ask then I can send them across in the best way.
I worked as a surveyor for Harrow Council in the 1980s and had a bit to do with setting up the Belmont Trail walkway (keeping the route free of dumping and encroachments at that stage). You mention that the trail stops at Vernon Drive and that was the site of a rare foot-crossing on London's railways, allowing walkers to access Wemborough Road.
Interesting!
Another excellent video. I've often been curious about this line. All the best from Kuala Lumpur.
Thanks so much!
I recall seeing a single car DMU at Belmont in the early 60’s and can remember the station at Stanmore Village
Oh nice. Must’ve been really cool to have experienced in person!
Fantastic, well researched video. I’ve done extensive reading about this former line to learn more about local history. You’ve summed it up so well. Thank you.
Thanks so much :)
Great video. I've shared it onto my Threads account.
Thanks so much :)
hmmmm.. I was stationed at Bentley Priory a couple of times in the 1990s. A big part of my past. Never knew there was a railway line....
A lot of people living in belmont either drive, get dropped off or take the bus to Preston road or Northwick Park for a quick met line into the city 😊
I hope you get to make a video on the Croxley and Rickmansworth lines that were almost reopened as part of the plan to extend the Met to an actually useful station in Watford. The whole story of the Met and LNWR in the Watford area is fascinating to me and I was studying near there back in 2010-13 when the plan to extend the Met looked like it might go ahead. Also, the Alban Way is a great orbital route that might warrant a video; I've walked it and it's a nice hike (except for the bit where the M1 cuts across your path).
They’re in the plans for sure…although my plans do move around a fair bit in terms of ordering every now and again 😂
Yes the Alban Way would make for a good video I think, especially with the paralleling bus route operated by Uno which I cannot remember the number of! But would make for an interesting idea for sure
@@somenorthlondoner Also, I may have missed it but I'm not sure it was clear in your video why the branch to Stanmore was built such that it joined H&W station facing north. The same was true of the Croxley branches at Watford so maybe they just liked making life difficult for their customers but the Met figured out how to build branches. But then, is there anything the Met didn't get right?
Great video..Belmont history in particular.. except for locals it's hard to believe the line was built in the first place!...I'm close to Harrow leisure centre (Trial beginning)- which is relatively poorly served - As u said buses are ok - also incl 324 at Stanmore & H19 at Belmont. Any time delays can be offset by fast trains to Central London
Yes definitely and that’s cool! I take it you walk along the Belmont Trail a fair bit then?
Admittedly whilst filming I grabbed a Greggs in HotH and once I’d acquired it I thought of catching an H9/10 up to the start of the trail but very glad I didn’t as it had occurred to me that it almost reaches Kingsbury and takes in Northwick Park H so would’ve been quite the detour!
@@somenorthlondoner ,Ha ha- I made that H9 mistake recently. Trail ? Yes but only up to Belmont Costa coffee!.. You made me realise that the line to Stanmore made a lot of sense in 1890 - It’s about 3 miles & has quite a noticeable incline. Ok for a horse but would have been a tiring evening walk. - Thanks again for the great info.
oh meant to say H10 - ..but if you take the H9 you can pick up the trail much quicker..
hi there, good video, i have all the books on this line which are hard to get now,the "rattler was the DMU" not the steam loco and rolling stock,all first generation dmu's used to rattle.the dmu on this line was a park royal 2 car set,final service from belmont wasthe13,39 to harrow,in 1951 a fowler2-6-2t locowas used.these were based at watford shed,if you were lucky a Bowden- Cooke 0-8-0 tank loco could be seen running up to stanmore,
That’s really interesting! Glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting - I hadn't realised it had ever had a service every 10 minutes, even in the peaks! As you say, it would probably be difficult to rebuild the line as it was. The least good bit of the transport network in the area is getting from H&W to HotH - there are frequent buses, but ithey take ages for the less than two miles, which a rail connection would probably do in three minutes. But that would have to be underground! Perhaps it might be possible as part of a new/re-opened north London orbital rail route: Harrow-on-the-Hill > H&W > Stanmore (Jub) > Edgware > Mill Hilll B'way (T-link/WLO) > Mill Hill E > Finchley Ctrl > E.Finchley > Highgate (surface level) > Crouch End > Stroud Gn > Finsbury Pk. Personally I'd then join it to the Piccadilly, giving that line two branches at its north-east end, to match its two branches in the west; that would also make any tunnelling cheaper - tube sized. But it could also join the Overground - perhaps re-using the Palace Gates line.
Look forward to your next video
It’s surprising for sure, particularly for 100 years ago.
It’s a shame that there couldn’t have been a Watford High St style deviation towards HotH from the DC line but I suppose it’s on the wrong side of the mainline for that and so would’ve been ridiculously expensive to have tried burrowing.
I think it would be a nice addition to a revitalised Northern Heights project but getting the bits of alignment still intact going again (MHE to Copthall, MHB to Edgware, Parkland Walk) would be a challenge in itself!
I think if the funds were with governments TFL and local council , as London is expanding a lot of lines and railways stations should reopened, but recently as one or two lines across the country have been put back into the network! As for this, line could become part of the overground service link with Willesden via Bakerloo branch ? There purposals to build on fright line around Neasden to west London! It's possible and with pollution of vehicles case for the Mayor maybe put it to TFL?
I don’t think there’s really much point in doing this but there should be more projects like the West London Orbital looked at. Theres a video about it on my channel in fact!
The station house at Stanmore is still there
It is indeed!