Great hints on picking a paracentric keyway. Never seen a wiper blade insert make a tension wrench like that before. That's the type of thinking I could do with more of ☺
Thanks. If you have not seen my video #82 on picking paracentric keyways, it better explains the method I use in this video (not the tension, but everything else).
Old school thieves used rings of keys and just raked locks with lost keys until one would turn. This mostly worked on cheaper or "lower goods" such as luggage, lock boxes, etc. Using a security style key meant they had to at least have the right kind of key before a rake attack could even work.
Another awesome picking of course. It's like they made that perfect for the wiper blade. Good for us. Bad for them. :-) I can't imagine picking some of the locks you pick. I have a lot to learn so keep teaching us thank you.
Thanks... and that wiper insert was darn near tailor made for this. I actually have one with a couple of teeth filed into it in my pick case, for exactly this purpose, but it wasn't needed in this instance.
Thanks. I was thinking the same thing. The X6V was one of my early videos... #28. I remember nothing about the lock other than the crazy curved keyway, and my surprise that I was able to open it.
Great video! Interesting that Kwikset used the innovations of GM. I'm thinking they did it more to prevent forcing than to make picking more difficult, but it certainly had that effect. Have fun with that ASSA! Keypicking has a great article that really helped me out with those locks.
Thanks... This is certainly intimidating at first glance, and with a little more warding in the bottom of the keyway, it would be very difficult. Abus came close, they just missed the last 5%.
+LockPickingLawyer I like how you tension it to. would it be possible to shave off the face were it couldn't be tension that way add even more difficulty
It might make it more difficult to tension, but truth me told, the pinning is not very difficult or subtle which means solid tension is not as important. I could probably open this just as easily with one of the super flexible Peterson Flat Five in TOK. It is not ideal, but for this pinning, I could manage without much fuss.
Hi Harry, Boomerang keyway ... ? now that's different! Didn't scare you though! Snug tolerances on the key pins, perhaps too tight? Unique tensioning, love it. Regards, Brian.
Thanks... I agree that key control is definitely a big part of the equation, but I can't believe that this keyway/warding was designed without an eye towards pick resistance.
Nice picking and nice locks. Got some very nice locks there. Just went on line to checkout the Pfaffenhain. Found a website Lock Shop Warehouse. Think I may grab a couple different locks off it.
LPL, I think you've decided that gutting it like you picked it (using the pick to push the key pins out from the keyway). Seems to speed things up and require less tapping and banging, which makes for a nicer video. Nice episode. Thanks. Cheers, /Acey
Thanks. For this lock (and many of the tighter tolerance locks), you need to push them, but for many/most, the pins just drop out and a light tap is much faster. hard to know until you crack the lock.
Crazy keyway but all in all a very picking friendly lock ;-) Great work again on this lock. The key pin in stack #1 is still a mystery to me. You showed how a nose of the key interacts with the groove in the pin. But why would a key without that nose not work?
Abus: Try getting a tension wrench into this keyway, bitches! Also Abus: Let's machine a slot into the front of the cylinder that's perfect width for a wiper insert...
For the ASSA try filing down a key and the valleys of the key and use the the rest of the key to set the lower pins and you can try picking the the top pins! great videos and advice
Maybe the profile pin or the slot 1 pin do something if the lock is right way around. European profile cylinders are installed with the cylinder on top, so you basically picked it upside down.
Nice job on that ABUS. I just got two ABUS 888 cores in the mail yesterday. I haven't had success yet finding info from other lock pickers on this particular cylinder. From what I have seen online this 888 cylinder is rather new. You'd probably breeze right through it, but I've not had success yet.
LockPickingLawyer Thanks for replying. I have been fooling around with it some more tonight and I've figured out the medium width BOK tension and half diamond work on the second core. The bitting for that one is sad and I am sure I will be able to rake it with the city rake. The original core that came in the 83 body has fair bitting but still nothing spectacular that I'd purposely paid for. I'm going to see if I can get a video up tomorrow. Hopefully I will be successful in opening it as well.
LockPickingLawyer Another thing to mention actually is I have been using a different hold on my picks for the past week due to my right hand cramping up lately. I'm not used to this change and hopefully I can just go back to my normal method I've had success with over the past few months.
Great picking. I guess all that complexity didn't make the lock any harder to pick. They definitely don't subscribe to the KISS method of lock manufacturing. I guess they must have figured that just the sight of that keyway alone was enough to scare off most pickers. Does anyone at these companies ever actually pick up a new prototype and just try picking it? Maybe they do, that would explain why they modified the face of the lock to give you a method for tensioning an otherwise difficult to tension keyway. Maybe I've been looking at it backwards and they are actually trying to keep locks pickable. Or it just simply goes to show that adding complexity to a system in order to increase security is a monumental task since anything you add to the system also adds more ways for it to fail. Sometimes less is more. (An ironic ending to a run-on comment.)
I really wish I knew the internal processes that go into making these locks -- particularly keyway design. I appreciate that keyway design can be deceivingly complex in locks like this that are designed for mastered and grandmastered systems with multiple key profiles designed to fit (or not fit) in multiple keyways. But even so, it seems like the overwhelming majority of products out there do very little to resist manipulation. A classic case of losing sight of the forest for the trees. It seems like somewhere in the complex design process, people forgot the primary purpose of a lock.
Not only do I have one, he told me that his tool was modeled off of a metal one that he first saw on my channel (and is made by Peterson). A follower is usually easier for me though... I'm just out of practice.
Thanks again for the locks! I hate to say, but I don't remember if there were holes or a groove milled out of the lock body. I would assume there are, however, because if it didn't, the passive pins on the side would never let you insert a key. I think the four passive pins did exactly what they were supposed to do (which is a big fat "nothing" when it comes to resisting picking). It's the profile pin that I don't think is working right. See my video #144 of the Ikon SK6 for an example of how a very similar arrangement is supposed to work.
They are for master key purpose, so you can open the lock for the building with every key of the locking system, but the lock for single rooms only with a certain key.
I've heard mixed results. Doesn't seem like it's very practical. In the industry, people are scoping the wafers, and cutting a key. Probably going to be an investment in my near future.
Does pin 1 prevent the key from being used in a different lock with the same bidding? If the groove in the key pin isn't there, then the key can't be used, especially since it won't reach all the way to the back of the core.
Yes, but a key that doesn't have it (or that has it filed off) works in all locks. It's utterly pointless as a security mechanism. At best, it would stop someone from accidentally using the wrong key.
I'm thinking it may actually be a method of control for Abus. This way, you HAVE to buy their locks. Obviously, a knowledgable person would just file that little part off, but John Q. Public? Maybe not.
I’ve never installed one of these so I can’t say why you would want to do this but the key retains pin one so you can back the core out enough to disengage the center without risk of dropping the pin while you work with the lock.
That's a good thought... were it not for the anti-drill pins that are not crimped in and fall out very easily (something that happened to me many times putting this back together). :-)
What makes them hard is the combination of the pinning (similar to the newer ASSA 600) and the sliders that control the sidebar. Depending on the model, there will be between 3 and 10 sliders. Very hard. They are definitely still available.
Those with 3 sliders. Would you be able to pick such, or even at that level they are crazy difficult? I figured they had reached end of life, as my dorm had all the locks replaced, and it was the Ruko Twin 6000. But good that they still can be bought! What about its patent? Can the keys now be copied legally? The one I have is an oval cylinder, and I'd love to have a padlock to put it in. I know of Anchor Las, which makes such. They officially don't sell to end customers, but if you contact them directly at anchorlas.se, they will sell by bank transfer. Are you aware of other padlocks that can take oval cylinders?
I’m not sure about key control aspects of the locks… I really don’t follow the patent facets beyond their existence. I’ve seen some variant of the Abus 83/80 that can take an oval cylinder, but I don’t own any. As for picking a 3 slider version, check out my video #71 in which I pick and gut a Lockwood Twin, which is a three slider version of the ASSA Twin.
I can get those Assa Twin 6000's all day long. Yes, the Patent is expired, but nobody like Ilco, JMA, Jet would even think about making these key blanks. You need to remember, you need the matching sidebar for the key to match. I provided the Assa for LPL to pick on, the sidebar in that is a shared sidebar, #126. A person can still get dedicated sidebars, and dedicated keyway. On another note, note much of a difference between the Assa Twin, and the Assa V-10, I'm certified in both systems. I could show you on video, but at this point, it doesn't matter. Either lock, the Twin 6000 or V-10 need to be purchased in pieces. The cylinder comes SNS. Sub-assembled no sidebar, add the sidebar, key pins (for the standard cuts) and key blanks.
![[249] Mul-T-Lock MT5+ Mortise Cylinder Picked and Gutted](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1fX8ql1sa1E/mqdefault.jpg)
![[249] Mul-T-Lock MT5+ Mortise Cylinder Picked and Gutted](/img/tr.png)
![[275] Hugo "Cobra" 61P Padlock (6 Trap Pins!) Picked and Gutted](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xHHtAecAyh4/mqdefault.jpg)
![[210] HUGE Abus 83/80 "Rock" Padlock Picked and Gutted](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DheW6s3oNHE/mqdefault.jpg)
![[532] Unusual Banham 12-Pin Lock Picked and Gutted](/img/n.gif)
Well done, LPL. That's a nice/nasty looking keyway. You should get a Blue Peter badge for the innovative use of a wiper insert.
LOL... Thanks.
"If you think I'm getting into this anytime soon, you have way too much confidence in my abilities"
What a throwback, HumbleLawyer
Great hints on picking a paracentric keyway. Never seen a wiper blade insert make a tension wrench like that before. That's the type of thinking I could do with more of ☺
Thanks. If you have not seen my video #82 on picking paracentric keyways, it better explains the method I use in this video (not the tension, but everything else).
That keyway looks ridiculous! Nicely done as usual!
Thanks.
This is the lock picking lawyer and today I'm gonna ruin your faith in locks
Old school thieves used rings of keys and just raked locks with lost keys until one would turn. This mostly worked on cheaper or "lower goods" such as luggage, lock boxes, etc. Using a security style key meant they had to at least have the right kind of key before a rake attack could even work.
Great job, I love that crazy keyway!
Thanks... it was definitely very interesting for an Abus keyway
Great job as usual brother. I love these intricate locks. Thanks for sharing!
Another awesome picking of course. It's like they made that perfect for the wiper blade. Good for us. Bad for them. :-) I can't imagine picking some of the locks you pick. I have a lot to learn so keep teaching us thank you.
Thanks... and that wiper insert was darn near tailor made for this. I actually have one with a couple of teeth filed into it in my pick case, for exactly this purpose, but it wasn't needed in this instance.
Very nice lock and picking, thanks for the info, I will keep it in mind.
The curved keyway reminded me a bit of the Metal X6V.
Keep them coming!
Thanks. I was thinking the same thing. The X6V was one of my early videos... #28. I remember nothing about the lock other than the crazy curved keyway, and my surprise that I was able to open it.
Great video! Interesting that Kwikset used the innovations of GM. I'm thinking they did it more to prevent forcing than to make picking more difficult, but it certainly had that effect. Have fun with that ASSA! Keypicking has a great article that really helped me out with those locks.
Thanks... I'll take a look for the thread on KP.
Very well presented and an interesting lock.
Thanks.
Great video. Looking forward to the smart key and that twin.
Thanks... don't hold your breath on the twin. :-)
I don't see you struggling with it for more than a week or two.
Your voice has changed exactly 0% in the last 4 years.
Imagine thinking he is under 30
He's in his late 30s if I'm not mistaken
Very nice and informative video.
Thanks for sharing sir👍👍👍😘😎🍻
Thanks.
another excellent video, and the tension idea lol "great"
Thanks.
Brilliant tensioning trick!
Thanks... it certainly was a helpful trick for this lock!
Thanks for your great CZcams channel
intimidating key way didn't slow you down great lock thanks for showing
Thanks... This is certainly intimidating at first glance, and with a little more warding in the bottom of the keyway, it would be very difficult. Abus came close, they just missed the last 5%.
+LockPickingLawyer I like how you tension it to. would it be possible to shave off the face were it couldn't be tension that way add even more difficulty
It might make it more difficult to tension, but truth me told, the pinning is not very difficult or subtle which means solid tension is not as important. I could probably open this just as easily with one of the super flexible Peterson Flat Five in TOK. It is not ideal, but for this pinning, I could manage without much fuss.
Hi Harry, Boomerang keyway ... ? now that's different! Didn't scare you though! Snug tolerances on the key pins, perhaps too tight? Unique tensioning, love it. Regards, Brian.
Thanks, and welcome back! It wasn't the same around here with you gone.
The curved keyway isn't for anti-pick. Its to prevent unauthorised copying of the keys. Using easi entry key profile machines.
Nice picking btw
Thanks... I agree that key control is definitely a big part of the equation, but I can't believe that this keyway/warding was designed without an eye towards pick resistance.
Yep, same idea as the Medeco KeyMark. And I couldn't imagine making a keyway like that without an EDM.
Wow - awesome! The Abus Vitesse just came out recently.
Thanks. This was a really great package -- I've never seen one in person before.
Nice picking and nice locks. Got some very nice locks there. Just went on line to checkout the Pfaffenhain. Found a website Lock Shop Warehouse. Think I may grab a couple different locks off it.
Thanks. Never heard of LSW. I'll have to check it out.
I'm thinking it's out of UK but they say ships worldwide. Just got a Trioving from REDEYE, unbelievable picking it right now.
LPL, I think you've decided that gutting it like you picked it (using the pick to push the key pins out from the keyway).
Seems to speed things up and require less tapping and banging, which makes for a nicer video.
Nice episode. Thanks.
Cheers,
/Acey
Thanks. For this lock (and many of the tighter tolerance locks), you need to push them, but for many/most, the pins just drop out and a light tap is much faster. hard to know until you crack the lock.
wow the locks of the beast
LOL... yeah, Adam has some high expectations for me.
Have you ever been approached for your suggestions on developing a lock that resists defeat by picking?
Crazy keyway but all in all a very picking friendly lock ;-) Great work again on this lock. The key pin in stack #1 is still a mystery to me. You showed how a nose of the key interacts with the groove in the pin. But why would a key without that nose not work?
Thanks. And pin #1 is just silliness... just makes it more expensive to cut keys. You file the nose off and it will work just fine
Abus: Try getting a tension wrench into this keyway, bitches!
Also Abus: Let's machine a slot into the front of the cylinder that's perfect width for a wiper insert...
For the ASSA try filing down a key and the valleys of the key and use the the rest of the key to set the lower pins and you can try picking the the top pins! great videos and advice
Thanks. Why destroy the key? If I wanted to try picking the top pins alone, I would just remove the sidebar.
I've never actually picked an ASSA. I was just told that's how you can do it. If you get a chance and are able I'd like to see how you do it!
Maybe the profile pin or the slot 1 pin do something if the lock is right way around. European profile cylinders are installed with the cylinder on top, so you basically picked it upside down.
Nice job on that ABUS. I just got two ABUS 888 cores in the mail yesterday. I haven't had success yet finding info from other lock pickers on this particular cylinder. From what I have seen online this 888 cylinder is rather new. You'd probably breeze right through it, but I've not had success yet.
+Matthew Wilson The 888 keyway isn't too bad... what kind of pinning does it have?
LockPickingLawyer Thanks for replying. I have been fooling around with it some more tonight and I've figured out the medium width BOK tension and half diamond work on the second core. The bitting for that one is sad and I am sure I will be able to rake it with the city rake. The original core that came in the 83 body has fair bitting but still nothing spectacular that I'd purposely paid for. I'm going to see if I can get a video up tomorrow. Hopefully I will be successful in opening it as well.
LockPickingLawyer Another thing to mention actually is I have been using a different hold on my picks for the past week due to my right hand cramping up lately. I'm not used to this change and hopefully I can just go back to my normal method I've had success with over the past few months.
LockPickingLawyer I just uploaded a picture to my Google+ profile if you want a good laugh.
You are holding euro style cylinders wrong way, the "bottom" is actually top of the keyway.
Great picking. I guess all that complexity didn't make the lock any harder to pick. They definitely don't subscribe to the KISS method of lock manufacturing. I guess they must have figured that just the sight of that keyway alone was enough to scare off most pickers. Does anyone at these companies ever actually pick up a new prototype and just try picking it?
Maybe they do, that would explain why they modified the face of the lock to give you a method for tensioning an otherwise difficult to tension keyway. Maybe I've been looking at it backwards and they are actually trying to keep locks pickable. Or it just simply goes to show that adding complexity to a system in order to increase security is a monumental task since anything you add to the system also adds more ways for it to fail.
Sometimes less is more. (An ironic ending to a run-on comment.)
I really wish I knew the internal processes that go into making these locks -- particularly keyway design. I appreciate that keyway design can be deceivingly complex in locks like this that are designed for mastered and grandmastered systems with multiple key profiles designed to fit (or not fit) in multiple keyways. But even so, it seems like the overwhelming majority of products out there do very little to resist manipulation. A classic case of losing sight of the forest for the trees. It seems like somewhere in the complex design process, people forgot the primary purpose of a lock.
Very informative, get that ASSA picked !!!!!
thanks for vid.
Thanks -- I'll work on the ASSA for sure.
Very interesting lock, nice picking and creative tensioning!
Have you tried Foxxy's front loader pinning tool? Would save you gutting both sides
Not only do I have one, he told me that his tool was modeled off of a metal one that he first saw on my channel (and is made by Peterson). A follower is usually easier for me though... I'm just out of practice.
+LockPickingLawyer and there I was thinking Foxxy was some kind of uber genius 😜
I'm surprised the side pins didn't have any effect. LPL, is there any holes in the shell? I didn't look before I sent that cylinder to you.
Thanks again for the locks! I hate to say, but I don't remember if there were holes or a groove milled out of the lock body. I would assume there are, however, because if it didn't, the passive pins on the side would never let you insert a key. I think the four passive pins did exactly what they were supposed to do (which is a big fat "nothing" when it comes to resisting picking). It's the profile pin that I don't think is working right. See my video #144 of the Ikon SK6 for an example of how a very similar arrangement is supposed to work.
They are for master key purpose, so you can open the lock for the building with every key of the locking system, but the lock for single rooms only with a certain key.
I don't have one of the new smartkeys to try it with, seems like you could tension the carriage through the change tool slot.
I'll be doing a fair bit on experimenting on these in the future. We will see.
I've heard mixed results. Doesn't seem like it's very practical. In the industry, people are scoping the wafers, and cutting a key. Probably going to be an investment in my near future.
I wonder how well tryout keys will work
Does pin 1 prevent the key from being used in a different lock with the same bidding? If the groove in the key pin isn't there, then the key can't be used, especially since it won't reach all the way to the back of the core.
Yes, but a key that doesn't have it (or that has it filed off) works in all locks. It's utterly pointless as a security mechanism. At best, it would stop someone from accidentally using the wrong key.
I'm thinking it may actually be a method of control for Abus. This way, you HAVE to buy their locks. Obviously, a knowledgable person would just file that little part off, but John Q. Public? Maybe not.
I’ve never installed one of these so I can’t say why you would want to do this but the key retains pin one so you can back the core out enough to disengage the center without risk of dropping the pin while you work with the lock.
That's a good thought... were it not for the anti-drill pins that are not crimped in and fall out very easily (something that happened to me many times putting this back together). :-)
At Abus the key guy looks at the new lock coming off the production line - - -“What do you mean they aren’t crimped #$%% !!!”
…coulda happen
At Abus the key guy looks at the new lock coming off the production line - - -“What do you mean they aren’t crimped #$%% !!!”
…coulda happen
Nimikos LOL
Why do you always do locks upside down?
I really do not understand this 2 core thing. Do you need to pick both cores? Seems like 'not'!
The two core cylinders get inserted directly through the door... either side will open the lock mechanism.
Super lock
...well, it's interesting at least... :-)
What makes the ASSA/Ruko Twin hard to pick? Lack of feedback? Access to pins?
Can they still be bought?
What makes them hard is the combination of the pinning (similar to the newer ASSA 600) and the sliders that control the sidebar. Depending on the model, there will be between 3 and 10 sliders. Very hard. They are definitely still available.
Those with 3 sliders. Would you be able to pick such, or even at that level they are crazy difficult?
I figured they had reached end of life, as my dorm had all the locks replaced, and it was the Ruko Twin 6000. But good that they still can be bought! What about its patent? Can the keys now be copied legally?
The one I have is an oval cylinder, and I'd love to have a padlock to put it in. I know of Anchor Las, which makes such. They officially don't sell to end customers, but if you contact them directly at anchorlas.se, they will sell by bank transfer.
Are you aware of other padlocks that can take oval cylinders?
I’m not sure about key control aspects of the locks… I really don’t follow the patent facets beyond their existence. I’ve seen some variant of the Abus 83/80 that can take an oval cylinder, but I don’t own any. As for picking a 3 slider version, check out my video #71 in which I pick and gut a Lockwood Twin, which is a three slider version of the ASSA Twin.
I can get those Assa Twin 6000's all day long. Yes, the Patent is expired, but nobody like Ilco, JMA, Jet would even think about making these key blanks. You need to remember, you need the matching sidebar for the key to match.
I provided the Assa for LPL to pick on, the sidebar in that is a shared sidebar, #126. A person can still get dedicated sidebars, and dedicated keyway.
On another note, note much of a difference between the Assa Twin, and the Assa V-10, I'm certified in both systems. I could show you on video, but at this point, it doesn't matter. Either lock, the Twin 6000 or V-10 need to be purchased in pieces. The cylinder comes SNS. Sub-assembled no sidebar, add the sidebar, key pins (for the standard cuts) and key blanks.
What does an Assa Twin 6000 cost and how many keys does it come with? And the same question for V-10 =)
What is SNS?
@6:02 I guess his wife was filming...
Nice job! Ever picked a keymark?
Thanks, and no. I have one, but it doesn't seem possible between the keyway and bitting.
So it's not only me! ;) yeah bitting is crazy.
Так легко взламываются)
This lock did not appreciate being gutted....Great pick!
Was I first? thats a first...
Thanks... It's been too long since I gutted a full euro cylinder. My skills are getting rusty. And yes, you are first. :-)