St Petersburg Cavalry School Mosin Carbine
Vložit
- čas přidán 8. 07. 2018
- / forgottenweapons
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.bbtv.com/collections/forg...
This is a rather mysterious - or at least poorly documented - Mosin Nagant carbine variation. Made from an assortment of rifles dated from 1896 through 1920, these carbines were designed to fit Gulkevich folding bayonets. They have a barrel just slightly longer than a 1907 carbine, but were fitted with 1907 Carbine rear sights. They were also fitted with metal sheaths alongside the rear sights to retain the tip of the folding bayonet, as well as new sling swivels on the left side of the stock and barrel band.
Basically no documentation has been published explaining the origin and purpose of these carbines, but hopefully some will eventually be found. The best hypothesis I am aware of at this time is that the carbines were made by and for the St Petersburg Cavalry School.
Thanks to the anonymous collector who shared this one with us!
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N Oracle #36270
Tucson, AZ 85704
A true forgotten weapon?
not totally but very little known
I'm actually watching this from St Petersburg. Yet another interesting video, thanks Ian!
Maybe you could research on your end to help us solve this mystery. A lot of time these information is impossible to find outside of Russia.
We disciples of gun jesus are everywhere, in fact we are legion !
Вы в Питере? Может в артилерийском музее, историки могут помочь?
It's five in the morning, but here I am watching Forgotten Weapons.
No it's not! It's 2:30 in the afternoon!
Its 2pm here in the uk
It's 16:35 in Saint-Petersburg
Fair enough
When all is lost, Forgotten Weapons will always be there for you.
A friend of mine actually owns one of these rifles here in Germany. His father bought it in the early nineties from Frankonia.
Nope, they just advertised them as Mosin carbines. And as Ian said they simply bought them from an Russian arsenal after the fall of the Soviet Union. The surplussed many old weapons during that time to get some money. The Russians themselves probably didn't know anything about the origin of these guns back than.
Should keep it in case of a Islamic uprising.
The bayonet was probably added because Cavalry in St. Petersberg at the time were used as crowd control and breaking up groups of protesters in the run-up to the revolution, so having a pointy bayonet becomes a useful deterrent in that role when they're dismounted.
Oof, I'd love to see the fireball on this thing.
Duuuuuude true memes
a true forgotten weapon
Something tells me that this rare and valuable piece of history will one day wind up in a pawn shop for $120
AardvarkLord I got a friend whose a expert on old Russian Mosin's. *1 Forgotten Weapons episode later*
Best I can do is $5 bucks.
Probably not this exact one, but sure
I don’t know, haven’t seen a Mosin go for under $200 in a while.
Hunter Smith Especially a carbine model
Since most of these where sold by Franconia in Germany, I'm going with "no". European Pawn Shops don't take guns. Government regulations for commercial arms sales are a nightmare.
Yes, one Mosin Nagant that never made it in my Mosin Nagant collection. I have a large list of different variations of the rifle, and I knew this one existed, but it is just too hard to get, and the bayonet is impossible to get unless you are super rich and happen to be really lucky when one pops up.
There was one for sale here in Western Europe a few years ago. I was broke at that time and didn't buy it. Still regret it. It was sold for a mere one and a half grand.
Its' 8 in the morning on a monday and I'm off and I wanna sleep... nevermind, where's the vodka?
It also seems they came in through Bavaria, given the Bavarian state-seal thingy is on there. They're our version of Texas, so it fits. :D
Dat short barreled Mosin - A proper *boom* stick
Couldn't have made this video sooner. One of these with the correct bayonet was sold for £495 here in England last year. If only I had known I would have tried to pick it up.
Never heard about this, thanks Ian!
Greetings from St-Petersburg. o/
In a bit of a mood today, and these vids are great for it. Very chill and interesting. Gets ya out of the rut
Gun Jesus: transcended us all to recognize gun numbering fonts.
He is clearly the reincarnation of John Moses Browning himself
Awesome video Ian. That is one rare rifle for sure.
Oh I have been waiting for this!
Wow that really is a unicorn. You'd be hard pressed to find a more unusual Mosin. There is a lot of confusion surrounding Mosin carbines. The 1907 was a true carbine as opposed to a cut down long rifle as were the later M38s and M44s. The Czech M91/38 and Soviet/Bulgarian M91/59 were however cut down infantry rifles.
I have a Polish 22LR single shot Mosin Nagant training rifle. Its VERY accurate and has one of the best triggers for a Mosin.
I have one of the orginal SMLE trails rifles that was rebarreled for just the same purpose. Finally pinned down what is was thanks to Ian.
One other little detail that may or may not be relevant is the extractor has a late style Tula star stamp, while the bolt body looks like it came off of a Chatellerault, if I am remembering my Mosin factory proofs correctly, and the cocking piece is from an old Ishevsk. The Tula star is significant because it might indicate when that rifle was last overhauled or repaired, or at least how late it was seeing use of some type. After a re-watch looking at proofmarks more closely, it almost looks like that rear sling swivel has an old Ishevsk bow and arrow proof on it. If that is the case, that would definitely confirm a Russian origin for this conversion along with the bayonet mounting.
If it was a bodge job, lead down range middle of cicvil war weapon, I should think anything that went together and wroked was needed.
But the Tula star on small parts was started around 1928 and the war was well over by that point. Prior to that they had a hammer as the parts mark, even before the revolution. I've got a 1930 Ishevsk built on a 1920 Tula "big hammer" receiver with the eponymous hammer mark stamped on the top flat of the receiver. It was one of those cases where recognizing little things like that can help you find something unusual in a stack of rifles. I seem to have a knack for finding oddities like that. My personal favorite is the re-lined 'Finned' 1903 Tula M91 with a 1917 Ishevsk receiver, that must have quite the interesting story behind it.
A font of knowledge! Were they possibly refurbished later and kept in reserve? That might explain later marks.
That's my guess. I figured I'd read up everything I could on the milsurps that were cheap and plentiful at the time, so I could get some cool stuff while it was still affordable. People still tend to deride the Mosin as cheap junk, but those prices keep on climbing. I learned my lesson from hearing the stories about how cheap and plentiful the K98s used to be and I figured Mosins and the Yugoslav bounty we had a few years back were going to end up the same way. I predict in 50 years, my "cheap junk" rifles will likely be seen in a different light, I don't expect them to become a goldmine, but certainly more respected than they are now. This is what happens when a nearly factory condition K98 falls into the hands of a curious, history minded 12 year old. That was quite a few years back now, but my Dad and I were helping clear out my WWII vet great-uncle's stuff after he died, and we had that rifle for about a week before we found out it was supposed to go to one of his army buddies' sons. Despite losing that rifle (we did get to keep the 1903 Springfield that was also there), we were hopelessly hooked. I'm the research guy, and Dad was/still is the guy with the storage space, although I started my own branch collection once I was old enough.
Funny enough I have a Vostock .22 target rifle that was just a cheap Russian gun. All the Russian guns I've shot have been enginnered were they needed to be, all are reliable and put up with rough handaling.
I bought a shortened Mosin at a gun show that had no importer marks and the previous owner had “sporterized”. The bolt handle had been bent exactly like that one, and I assumed it was the guy who sporterized it. Now, I’m not so sure.
FiveStringCommando garage bubbas bend mosin bolts all the time. They should have their hands chopped off!!
Look up Spanish civil war mosins. Many of these lack import marks as they were imported during days before strict enforcement of those laws. Also mostly all were "bubba" by the Spanish republican soldiers. They have some pretty unique characteristics that would identify them (year, sights, Spanish markings, wire swivels, etc..)
I think the thick right side of the forward band is there to prevent a standard bayonet from being used.
One of these is here in Italy. Owner bought it thinking he was buying a 07 carbine. No bayonet unluckily.
Gun jesus is the only one who can make me excited about a mosin
Hey Ian. I was wondering if there was a certain schedule you post videos and other content on this channel and on inrangetv? I try and keep up with posting times so I can always view an episode of my favorite historical channels. Better than history channel these days!
Scott Macadam dear peasant Ian doesn’t acknowledge question
Should get with Othias about this rifle and he also has a rare cavalry carbine you could do a video on as well
I wonder if making the rifle cleaning rod compatible was a armory attempt to make this a dual issue carbine that could be used by cavalry and artillery.
Siting here at work..mcdonnalds and Ian keeping me company
Jakkals Fuche your 1st choice not so good, 2nd choice very good.
Andy Uk mcdonnalds or streetside roasted chicken feet and apples..take your pick 😅
My first job was at a local McDonalds. It sucked, but it allowed me to buy my first few firearms.
You and me both
everyone has to start somewhere, better a job than no job bro :)
Man those Nagant Safeties are something else
It is so weird to see a Mosin that short
Why? I'm 5'4" and I've seen lots of Mo-Nags.
I don't know why, but a lot of the features that were obviously added remind me of my Czech Mauser or a K98K. A side mounted sling, turned down bolt, etc. It's almost like somebody said "Man, we're awfully short on our Mauser pattern rifles for this non-essential purpose, but we have a bunch of Russian rifles in that crate over there. Let's add some stuff so the manual of arms is similar to our service rifle and call it good." It's not all that uncommon to find examples of just this practice for military academies, police units, or reserve troop training. They just happened to dig up a particularly rare variant that suited their purposes.
I'd be curious how the length compares to maybe a Mauser rifle variant. The bolt bending was obviously done post-production because of the "belly-rolls" in the metal. I don't think they got it hot enough during the process. I think the Gulkevich bayonet hardware may be a red herring and these may have been modified in a country other than Russia. Since it has German proof marks, could the Germans have bought these commercially during the interwar period to replicate a Mauser pattern rifle for training?
Were there other mosins in service with that bent bolt or just these ones? WAW had that style bolt on the mosin and I always wondered where the hell they got the idea for that considering most mosins are straight bolt or have that other style of curved bolt
Thanks for the Chinese!!
感謝中文翻譯！！
The "CRA" mark on the stock cannot be Russian. The Russian "R" is written like a Latin "P" and the Latin "R" symbol does not occur in Russian... (though a "backwards R" is a "ya" sound in Russian.)
Okay... but why can’t it b Russian? P is Cyrillic sounding “r.”
A mosin Nagant that is truly a forgotten weapon.
I love mosins
It's ok there's a pill for that.
Wassermelones me to brother. I started with 1,pu sniper. Now I have 9# all 9130' love me some Mosin.
There are many rifles that are superior, but for sheer variations and total production--and that they fire the rimmed cartridge--they have to be regarded.
Wow what a mysterious little rifle, what the hell
Mystery Mosin. Nice work. 0)
I have a M 44 Mosin nagant It has on the barrel shank T N 2 . It also has a 2 on the bolt, stock and other places. The magazine and but plate have different numbers. All numbers are stamped. any idea on this ?
Try finding a Ka3 cossack.....unobtainium. Very cool rifle. Never heard of this before.
There was a small pile of similar carbines that floated into Canada and the US a few years ago that are very similar but have standard rifle rear sights, and no metal sheath for the Gulkevich bayonet. However they did arrive with their bayonets, their origin is as much of a mystery as these seem to be. There really seems to be a lot of poorly documented or undocumented varieties of the Mosin Nagant in the world, I've seen pictures of a shortened 7.62x39mm version, there's the Holodovsky prototypes, heck I have a relatively bog standard M91/30 that's wearing a stock made of cedar with oversized proportions and an elevated, straight comb that makes it impossible to use the iron sights. Why it was built like that is a mystery.
Are you sure you aren't referring to M44 carbines?
Matt Elder Nope, it was a very limited number (maybe 5-10) with removable bayonets in a weird intermediate size.
I need this rifle in my life.
Its 8 at night,and my scheduled program Forgotten Weapons is on
Davidson Makesan no need for tv any more
dualsport rider yes indeed
Mosins are just cool
The table cloth really sets off the carbine
Didn't the Tsar have a 3/4 scale Mosin Nagant rifle made for Alexei?
The lace-like tablecloth adds to the Russian aura :)
Is there any end to Mosin variants? "The World Wonders..."
This is some new level in gun nerdery... :)
A very interesting item. I have a personal theory that might be wrong.
when i take a lock att the re stamped numbers they have an uncanny resemblance to numbers on items i know came from kirovsky zavod
it used to be putilovsky zavod and produced railway rolling stock and oil drilling equipment.
It was one of the first factories that the bolsheviks hot controle of, so it might be that it is made for the civil war, and that would explain the lack of documentation.
I find it odd that it didnt have a cleaning rod, simply due to all the ammo being corrosive at that time
Dear Lord? Where is our G11 video?
I just came into possession of a type 53 Chinese mosin carbine not too dissimilar to this rifle. However it's missing the wood furniture. Does anyone know if I can just use a normal mosin carbine stock/barrel shroud or where I could get a type 53 stock/barrel shroud?
Nice specimen.
Mosin Nagants are really awkward to cycle. I wouldn't like to try it while on a horse jumping about the place. You would want something like a 98k and even that would be challenging for an experienced rider to do, mind you the standards of horsemanship were very high in Russia. Those Cossack riders were second to none in the saddle and utterly fearless to boot.Thanks for the vid.
Try shooting from a mobile vehicle which has total autonmus control , with no stabilisation. To hit the sky is a miracle.
A big problem is most US owners havent ever cleaned theirs properly and they still have 70 years of dried on cosmoline gunk in the bolt and chamber face
no +Skoopsro mosens are inherently gummy actions due to the retaining bar at the bottom of the bolt. when they are poorly mechined it screws with the system.
Daveid Pliskin i dont remember what my reply had to do with any of the posts in this comment
what was distinct about a cossack mosin?
My bet is that they were an early carbine made while production was being tooled up for the 1907 pattern and then when WW1 broke out they just kept producing them since they already had the machinery
I have a rare 1947 ex-PU sniper. Supposedly they only made about 1,000 that year.
Nice info before sleeping
I love me some Mosins.
Frankonia is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) weapons and ammunition company in Germany. They have 24 stores selling hunting and sporting weapons including accessories and clothing. Frankonia also employs gunsmiths that serve the customer's guns. Everything from Frankonia ist indeed very expensive. You may say it's a german Brownell's...
I am just guessing hear but maybe it's a trials rifle that went into limited field trials.
Good for hunting, easy to carry and I'm sure the shoulder could take at least a couple shots before giving out haha.
MrLoobu also you would be blind and deaf from the sound/flash from the muzzle. Basically it is like a small flashbang in your face
Seeing the title I thought it was going to be about a rifle that was issued to cadets. It looked small enough and cadet weapons were in the beginning when they were still training teenagers to be soldiers were rather short in length. I've seen some so-called cadet guns and they were usually small long arms, at least where teenagers were concerned.
I like how Ian tried to have the comments not blow up by saying they aren’t Finn
I believe the arsenal at Springfield has one. Also they had "Armory Day" today, great collection.
Forgotten Weapons CSI: Carbine Source Investigation.
WOW 0 LIKES AND 400+ LIKES
A RECORD MAN
Congrats
Holy shit its one of those.
Nice to see my birthplace being mentioned in the Forgotten Weapons video!
You were born in the Russian Empire?
Saint-Petersburg was renamed back from Leningrad in 1991.
I'm aware, I was just joking! ;) And even if I wasn't I wouldn't have been surprised, as I have met some Centenarians in my time, both face to face, and on the internet.
OMG!!!!! ITS SO TINY
So just a short, stubby nice looking Mosin?
Dang it Ian I’m trying to finally go to bed!
so it folded like the bayonet on an m44?
Yes, but it was also detachable.
Forgotten Weapons Do you happen to know why did folding attached bayonets become fairly popular with the Russians, as with many of the Mosin carbines and the SKS, and their sphere of influence, but never caught in really with any other military power?
The bayonet that goes to this rifle is at a local pawn shop near me
You should email me a picture of it, at admin@forgottenweapons.com .
Went back to the pawnshop i were i found the bayonet it was no longer there someone purchased it afraid im a little too late sorry
@@ForgottenWeapons This might be an inappropriate question. But is this your rifle Ian? This is the second Ka3 marked one i've seen, the other I've held.
Very nice looking rifle - a MUTT :)
True unicorn right there........
Turn down for what? closing the Chamber.
So what kind of history does this rifle have? It looks pretty clean.
2.000 meters is 2km, isn't it 200m instead?
I can't tell you how many times this gun whacked me in the head in Insurgency.
"R" is a letter that does not appear in the cyrillic alphabet. That should tell us something... The CAR cartouche is not russian, that is not to say that the gun did not originate in Russia
Probably some bolshevik armorer got bored.
Bob Sacamano Even so, it's really bad ass. I got a 1942 Izhevsk.
Mine is a 1938 Izhvesk with brass cappings on the top cover for the barrel, a very nice gun.
7.62 x39mm I really want an Izhevsk SkS, but only 2,000 were made!
@Cool Cat
I admire your drive to acquire one! if you ever give up though, get your hands on a Yugoslavian SKS, they are great rifles too!
so this gun is either worth a shit ton of money or basically nothing if it was actually made by frankonia
This may seem like an obvious question but how does production license work between different states? If an eastern european country produced a Russian origin rifle or South American produced a rifle or part of European origin would they typically pay royalties? It must be tempting to some governments to "test" a better design, reverse engineer it and then produce their own and/or sell for export.
Basicly thats what other countries did, they made their own version and sold them to whoever they wanted to support politically. Things are a bit different now after the soviet union collapsed. Venezuela makes a licensed copy of the russian izhmash ak-103 series of AKs.
Licenses are a form of capitalism so i doubt communists embraced the practice much
Were soldiers back in the day just stronger than people nowadays? Do you think that they complained about the kick of the rifles they were using?
The cavalry, who were the ones getting these carbines, were professional soldiers who learn to shoot properly. The conscript infantry basically just sucked at shooting by today's standards.
On the other hand in a two way range, do you care ? As long as you are dissuading the other side that's what matters. Given the mindset (Still) of Cavalary, you are the upper echelon and an aristcratic officer class, most of them would have been on the White side. St Petersburg at the time wa sdefinitly Red. Any long arm on a horse is usless anyway, Cavalary weapons were sabre and lance. Old joke: Waht do you calll Cavalary that have lost thier horses? Infantary.
Joe Cat My 1942 Izhevsk Mosin kicks like a b***h and I'm a strong full grown man. I can't imagine what a Mosin Carbine variant is like.
Cool Cat they arent bad at all. I never understood why people think they "kick" so much. Its a full power rifle round in a rather heavy rifle. Its not a shotgun with magnum slugs. People are just used to shooting 22 caliber(5.56) "rifle" rounds nowadays. So people think anything bigger than that "kicks"
Skoopsro Skoopsro I own one and it kicks.
I`m a simple man, i watch and press like before CZcams flags the video and Ian has to re-upload it.
excuse my ignorance here but why was the imperial marking defaced, does it became a shunned or forbidden symbol or something?
I think the Communists did that after the revolution.
Probably just Communists trying to erase the past. As they do.
Yeah, funny that Putin today uses both symbols of Soviet Russia but also of the Russian Empire to show off (he kind of bridges the gap, despite the fact that both of those things don't really go together because the Imperial Russians (the whites!) lost to the Communist Russians (the reds) in the Russian Civil War after WWI (that was the reason the Russians stopped fighting against say Germany! Germany sent Lenin back to Russia in a locked train-car (so he couldn't escape, even if he wanted to - which he didn't, he wanted to go back "for the revolution" (kind of like a Russian Che Guevara)...he and others actually negotiated this with Germany, so that they could leave Switzerland for Russia!))
Also: Communism? Yeah they say that, but it never was communism! They still had leaders living in mansions/palaces etc. (they just said that they were communist IMHO!)
+Bronchiosaurus Same reason why you can still occasionally find some MG3s in the German military with weird, defaced markings on them. Most of those are probably used for dry training only nowadays (the age showing its toll, with cracked receivers etc. making the guns unsafe to fire), but they are still around…
The Party is All Comrade.
But seriously, the Communists didn't exactly like the Imperials.
you really should invite Lindybeige here on youtube :D my two favourite historians in one video!
Perfect hunting rifle.
Not sure what you'd do with the folding bayonet, put down a wounded animal? Otherwise, most milsurps make for good hunting rifles.
Adam Kadir: I wouldn’t use the bayonets
You might use the bayonet as an hunting dagger...
You do know accuracy is important for hunting, right? Mosin carbines are not exactly sharpshooter rifles...
lptomtom: yes I know how important accuracy is, but having a carbine is better to carry into the woods because they are lighter and they easier to move around, plus normally I wait for the deer to come in my sights at about 150 yards
Where are those hmg stg44s at ian?
I have no more information than you do...
Forgotten Weapons tis but a dream
They already addressed it once and for all they have no clue what happened to them.
Privyet from SPb !
Moisin carbine, aka " Soviet fireball thrower"
Drooooooooool
Could it have been a Romanian sale gone bust?
NKVD rifles ?
Makes sense since so little is known about them, not that I know anything about the NKVD, just speculating.
doubt it, the NKVD are well recorded of haveing used M38 carbines and M44s later on
Tabuk rifle
A1