Tom Cunliffe on Keels.
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- čas přidán 25. 03. 2018
- Tom Cunliffe takes a look under some boats ancient and modern.
#Tom Cunliffe, #keels
If you’re interested in sailing, things maritime and the salty road to freedom, you'll enjoy my channel, so pour yourself a glass of the finest and settle down to listen to my occasional chats.
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Welcome on board!
Tom
copyright Tom Cunliffe 2020
The David Attenborough of sailboats!
Tom, your passion for that old girl’s undersides was contagious! Especially when you went round behind her and admired her aft! Wonderful 👍🏻
Thanks Darren. I love a nice run! Tom
Haha, “blowing around like a crisp packet”
Yes he always seems to have at least one standout funny line in each video
Always hilarious in it's understated delivery
"What a grand, grand thing, is a fine old boat".
“Blows around like a crisp packet on the water!” Love it! :)
I'm at the smallest end of the scale with "Novalis" my Bénéteau Cabochard trailer-sailor of only 14 feet. This boat has a long keel and skeg-mounted rudder. It is wonderful not to cry blue murder when she touches bottom unlike my dinghy with the centreboard and swinging rudder. Bénéteau has built many fine full-keel boats, and will probably do so again as people become more sceptical about fin keels and the kind of rudders we saw in your video.
As someone else has already pointed out, Tom's enthusiasm for sailing and all things boating is infectious. I only discovered his videos a few weeks ago and every one I've watched since has been a joy. He also writes the way he speaks, always superbly informed and delightfully informal. Gamming with him would be a wonderful experience!
Perhaps we'll get to raft up one of these days!
The past few weeks I've been rafting up to your book Expert Sailing Skills from Wiley Nautical publishers. Loads of information backed up with a wealth of photos and illustrations. @@TomCunliffeYachtsandYarns
This is an ode to classic boats! Yes, she is really beautiful. Thanks for the enthusiastic and compelling commentary.
Tom it is a wonderful thing that you do, to share your knowledge and wisdom on boating matters. Always enjoy your stuff.👍
Cheers Norman. Nice to know you're out there.
If i had the money, i would have a replica of this boat made!
Thank You,Sir.
I would feel saver in lady bell than the modern yacht those keels look vulnerable.
Excellent presentation. Agree with all said.
That keel would certainly be my choice!
I cannot stop imagining her battleship grey and grinning
Tom, a lovely film. I enjoy your knowledge, enthusiasm and ability to do a 7 minute piece to camera in equal measure.
You are very kind, but I'm lucky to have that ability in my genes. I come from a long line of preachers and lawyers!
Thanks for this Tom, Hull form is a fundamental topic that new boaters seldom find much that helps them. I also love the style and history of the full keel, until I have to back one up in a marina, when it becomes clear they revers like a drunken elephant.
You sir, are a real joy to listen to, you have much to say, and it is wonderful to hear it!!!! Thank you!!!
Thank you Tom for making these videos. Always a pleasure to watch them.
God Bless Ladybell.
Prettiest boat in the yard I might ad .
I don't sail, i have an old glass fibre kayak, but keep coming back to watch Tom Cunliffe, it's so refreshing to listen to someone so knowledgeable and to share that with us, perhaps one day i'll get afloat.Those Gaff rigged boats look just the job but what do i know ?
Thanks Gronock. Good to know you're enjoying the vids and who knows, you may get a gaff-rigged boat one of these days. Tom
Great video! I'm a year older, and also grew up in a boating environment, my great grandfather was owner and captain of the Hamburg, a Canadian bark and other vessels. My grandmother told me tales of sailing to China and back, they mostly consisted of her telling me how horrible it was. I went off in a little different direction: boat building, foils a specialty. Well I did that until I got better... Took about 25 years. Raced dinghies until a few years ago, and still try to pay attention.
What a lovely film Tom! Thanks.
So enjoyed this and your enthusiasm and love for the
boat
Thanks as ever, Tom
Another great video thank you Tom
Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
Your videos are fascinating.
Amazing, thanks Tom...
I just love love all you videos
I concur with all that you said Mr. Cunliffe. Thank you.
One thing you mentioned that took me a long time to realized why long keels are safe was "lead ballast laid along the bottom". This means that all the ballast weight is way down as deep as possible, instead of distributed upright like in a modern boat. The centre of mass in an upright keel, even with a bulb, is always well above the maximum draft but when laid down horizontally it is quite close to the maximum draft resulting in a strong righting force. This is another reason long keeled boats feel safe and it is seldom mentioned.
Momentum. A long keel's distributed weight relative to fin keel's centralized weight tends to reduce hobby horsing.
Learned to sail on one of these Tom.
I like the literary quality of your videos, the turn of a pithhy poetic phrase or two. The one about a crisp, and the one aboutnothing being free. And the overall economy of expression, but the willingness to indulge in an appropriate tangent. Of course my mostly aspirational boating involves lots of shallow waters, so my favorite keels are adjustable things, like those lovely leeboards on that London barge you have a video on. Even though my taste is different, I hope you keep bringing your literary talents to video.
The yachtsman's Attenborough... Love your presentation style and fluidly-calm demeanour. Wonderful to watch - thank you! What a great reference to the "free" grey paint, superb! :) LOL
Love the old sailing ships from the early 20th century. Thanks for explaining why they rock.
My pleasure. T
My God Tom, I could be listening to you talking for hours...!!! Do not stop doing videos
No chance of that yet. T
You are just the best!
Lord, he does love to sail! You can hear it!
Too right. I wish I were out there right now, but my boat's in Denmark and I'm in the UK. Hoping to join her in July sometime. Tom
Great presentation. Well done, from Ireland.🇮🇪
Very well said .
What a wonderful video
Thanks mate.
Love the look of the Falmouth working boats. I’m considering buying an Aquarius pilot Cutter which was based on the old Falmouth boats.
Very interesting, as ever. And I'm bloody sure I know which boat I would rather be on, in a blow. Lady Belle every time for me!
Me too mate!
As others have said, a great piece of footage - more like this please :)
Thanks. I'm working on it. Watch this space......
What a thing of beauty! Aedehhh.. If you think oldtimer..
I rather enjoyed that video. Jolly good stuff.
I like those form too
I'm attracted greatly to a bigger version of my skiff that can plane and zoom around. But vids like this and the understanding I'm gaining from the experience being shared is influencing me. Cheers.
totally agree with you.
FAB Boat : -)
It took this corona virus for me to discover Tom's videos and I don't regret one bit of it ... the videos I mean.
Thanks Antonio for watching. Pleased to have you on board. Tom
So passionate about your boat, your hart is in to it I can tell
And everything you say is truth , but in the boat next to yours, in 15 to 25 knots you go everywhere way way faster
👍🏼👍🏼
A Trip is no good if if you can't share your experience... thank you as I look for my boat.
great video- made me subscribe
So pleased to hear it Robb. Hope you like the others as much. Tom
The pitch on the prop of that old 28' boat is incredible..I've never seen anything like it.
Its probably a variable pitch propeller.
As a motor boater hadnt thought about the influence of forward depth
Him im 15yrs old live and born in Australia. i am fix a 1996 28ft plywood clinker. A very interesting boat being shoal draft with a centre board and GAFF RIG i just brought your book Hand Reef and Steer as well as the Complete Riggers apprentice these will help me sort out the rigging
HI Izaac Very good to hear from you and well done on fixing up the boat. I hope 'Hand Reef and Steer' will answer your queries, but if not drop me a line at tom@tomcunliffe.com. Good luck! Tom
I think you're selling the older form a little short. I've sailed modern and trad as well, our last was a 1936 cutter, 23' on deck displacing 4 tons, heavy traditional by anyone's standards (based on the Poole pilot cutter form that Harrison Butler also seemed to follow). Unless experienced very few get why this is so good. The power of the big rigs that they'll hold is one benefit, yet each sail is not so huge or over-tensioned as to make them hard to handle. Deck work is a joy as the motion is smooth and predictable. Speed is good if the hull is well shaped (we often made 7 knot+ passages). But the real joy is the feel of a boat that almost nothing will stop. She would sail for hours without a touch on the tiller anywhere from close hauled to wind slightly abaft the beam, Could be tacked, even in a chop, simply by trimming the sails, reversing under power is often stated as a negative, if there are problems it's because the skipper is not in tune with his boat, be gentle and aware but positive and the problems melt away. Modern boats are for those who want to drive between marinas, boats like this are for those that love to sail. They were developed for those who worked at sea and expected their boats to care for them in all conditions day after day. Modern boats are for those who pick their weather. The traditional form is more expensive to build, long after the price is forgotten the boat and it's benefits continue. Temporary boatless but you should see my drawing board...
Thanks for this Jonathan. I'd love to see your board. I agree with every word and would never sell these boats short. One has to be even-handed however and the better modern yachts do have quite a bit going for them, so long as one appreciates the short-falls too. Tom
in my sailing club there were people who worked at the post office.
Their equipment tended to be yellow. Perhaps they liked their employer so much.
And I think the army people and the policemen also had the maching colors.
and that of the railway too.
As you say, you can tell a lot by looking under the water, and get an idea on how she'll sail - love your commentary Tom, many thanks. Personally, give me a solid keel, strong rudder and 'protected' prop... Lovely Quay Punt.
I've just been writing an article for Classic Boat about lines, including a Falmouth Quay Punt. Not sure when it'll be published, but think you'll find it interesting. Thanks for your comments.
Will much look forward to that. Strangely, I was just re-reading one of my favourite books, one of my Uffa first editions: "Uffa Fox's Second Book" (1935), chapter 17 - looking at the lines of Thomas White Ratsey's 'Dolly Varden', an Itchen Ferry type (the Solent fishing type), not quite similar lines to the Quay Punt! But a beautiful sailing boat nevertherless... Cheers, William.
No substitute for a full-keeled boat and nothing harder to handle in a crowded marina. Mine backs-up like a freight train off the tracks.
If you need a suggestion for another CZcams, that's it. (I'll be watching)
I'm actually afraid to take my own boat out of the slip because it means I've got to put her back. So far my bowsprit has proven to be the best shish-kebob in the marina and I never back-out without a spring-line attached to the stern. Picking-up a mooring is also a real nail-biter (especially for other other folks in boats nearby.)
Meanwhile a much newer boat is easily driving backwards with the helmsman standing behind the wheel facing aft.
I'm fully aware that it's not the boat that can't back-up, it's me (I've been told often enough.)
If you are costal cruising that is the keel to have, she will take grounding without much damage and her rudder is well protected and easily repaired.
WOW! Lady Belle is a fantastic work of art! Is she a wooden boat? Would love to see a tour of both top and interior.
My old finkeel would turn on a dime, almost pivoted on the fin.
Full keel versus a spade keel. I have sailed and raced both, the full keel without motors, the full keel is more comfortable to sail more gentle in a blow, tracks with little effort and requires less helm work but a bitch to dock a 40 footer with no sail in a river,. The spade is faster, less wetted surface, and she will spin on a dime, but she requires a lot of helm work. What is better, you won't make speed records in a full keelboat, but you sail in more comfort, but hands down, if you want to arrive quickly, the spade keel wins.
Well, that's it in a nutshell. It's horses for courses! Personally, I'm with you. I prefer the long keel with an easy motion. The performance isn't bad at all, and to compensate for the difficulty in docking I have a bow thruster. Tom
Hull and keel reminiscent of my elegant nordic folkboat - all oak / maghony hull on a massive iron keel. A thing of beauty.
And I've just sold it ! boohoo ...regrets!
Oh no! Poor you. I love those Nordic folkboats. I plan to have one in my old age!
I delivered a small motor sailer years ago that had the draft of the long keel on the stern, with the draft of the fin keel on the bow .. obviously didn't sale very well even across the wind.
Sounds like a real dog Adam. Tough luck mate!
I love how he loves this old gal
wonderful information..Cheers,,,she is beautiful..
Tom on these old timber boats what stops the keel bolts rusting away? And can the bolts be replaced?
Lady Belle is shapely
Hi Tom, as a complete novice to sailing I find your videos very informative and love your enthusiasm. My question is would a hull like this but with modern rigging be doable from an ease of sailing point of view or is putting modern rigging on that beauty not the done thing?
Thanks Martin for your kind remarks. As to putting a modern rig in a hull like that, it's pointless. A well-sorted gaff rig is easy enough to sail. The hull is not as close-winded as a fin keeler, so the main advantage of bermudan rig is wasted. Gaff has its own advantages, too numerous to mention here and all these would be lost for no gain. The modern rig would be easier to handle, but the losses in performance would never be worth it. Besides, we don't go sailing because it makes sense, do we, and a boat like LB is just so much fun. Have a read of my book, 'Hand, Reef and Steer' to whet your appetite. It's available on www.tomcunliffe.com. Cheers Tom
Looks like a great design. Too bad they don’t make keels like that in your explorer yachts anymore. ( at least none I know of)
Did this boat use to have an additional propeller on the other side?
So what are the down sides of this full keel? Why doesn't all blue water yachts have full keel?
Funny thing about perspective. The first boat I had ever sailed on was designed in 1925 and was much the same as this. My boat is a Beneteau because of that boat. Evolution is an amazing thing Tom and it's march is forward for a reason. Love the videos but this topic has been beaten to death by those unwilling to move with the times.
Why compare the extremes? It would be useful to find designs that have the advantages of both safety and speed. There are certainly cases, by the way, where going fast improves safety. Also I've met sailors who were happy their boats didn't have the lateral resistance of full keel boats. They said the lesser resistance allowed them to slide sideways with the crashing seas. They promoted a combination of: reduced draft, high freeboard, light displacement, round hull features, narrow transom. Those features could make a very safe combination. I think a lot has been learned about boat design since that full keel design, but little has really been put to use to increase safety. Maybe what happens is that the need for safety is actually a *constant* and because it is increasingly satisfied by electronics and good weather forecast, it is no longer provided by hull design?
[Edited for clarity]
Very interesting. If you read my book 'The complete ocean skipper' you'll see that I agree with much of what you say in the way of progress. Of course speed can improve safety, but you can't get away from the fact that the quay punt is going to look after her people long after they have run out of the stamina to look after her. The whizzers won't be able to do that. Coastal sailors can stay out of trouble using electronics. Very fast ocean yachts also to some extent, but I'm afraid that the rank and file are going to get clobbered sooner or later.
The over reliance on digital technology is a double edged sword. Overall, it has generally improved safety on boats (especially, as Tom mentioned, on coastal passages) for the average weekend sailor. However, it creates many unsafe practices which can and will eventually come back to bite...... many new sailors will never get to a high level of seamanship because they haven't learned the skills and are certainly not practicing them; many experienced sailors are losing their skills because of the 'use it or lose it' principle. The biggest danger is complacency! It is what kills or hurts most humans, whether sailing, driving, using power tools, etc. Like Tom, I am a yachtmaster instructor, emergency procedure trainer, advanced first aid trainer and former government boating safety officer - you would not believe what I have seen, usually because of over reliance or lack of understanding on the limitations of digital technology. A classic example is the number of cruisers crossing the Atlantic or Pacific without so much as a few small scale paper passage charts as a back up; they are not keeping proper logs or understand old school dead reckoning...... because they are just staring at the chart plotter and watching the vessel follow the digital course line to the next waypoint...... then boom, lightning strike (the trade wind milk runs are in the tropics, after all), total loss of electronics. The backup battery powered handheld GPS will give a Lat/Long but that is useless if you don't have a last known position plotted on a paper chart - you have no idea where you are nor can you plot a new course. There is a reason why yacht insurance for the Pacific crossing is very expensive! Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a techno-phobe; I loved the convenience and ease of use navigating with my iPad Navionics app for 18 months in the Caribbean a few years ago. But I use the technology as a tool and not the be all and end all, always with plan A and B in reserve and the seamanship to implement them.
A last anecdote: I recently watched a CZcams video of a chap piloting the inside passage of Fraser Island, Australia. He was in a beautiful new million dollar catamaran. Now this coastal passage has current and constantly shifting channels & sand bars, there is not a lot of depth. It is one of those coastal areas where you take the chart with a pinch of salt and don't rely on the nav aids; where you steam ahead cautiously with eyes well focused (or ideally with a crew stationed high on the bow); where you are looking intently for changes in water colour or subtle changes in the way the water is moving indicating the edges of sand bars. Using prudent seamanship........ This chap however, wasn't doing that. He had the auto pilot on and eyes down viewing Navionics on his IPad! Blissfully unaware that in this case, any chart is fairly useless. And no doubt, when he gets stuck on a sand bar with an outgoing tide, he will be blaming everything and everyone else, other than his own foolishness at happily spending a million bucks on a boat but not a few thousand on a coastal skipper course (or even better, yachtmaster) which would have taught him some good old fashioned piloting and coastal nav..........
@@markmuller8829 A school course will never make a competent seaman. My brother has an ocean going first mates ticket, any size ship, he smashed a lot of my plates and mugs on my boat by making a sudden turn while a steep wave picked the boat up from behind. Forget the bullshit money scamming courses, find an old sea dog to learn from.
@@grancito2 never said a sailing course makes a competent seaman, only practice, experience and miles under your keel can do that. But a good course and teacher will accelerate your learning and skills and teach you how to be safe, probably the most important thing. I've been teaching for over 30 years and not just sailing. Also, skiing, hang gliding, emergency procedures and more. You're kidding yourself if you think a good course is bullshit, although there are plenty of bad teachers, for sure. As for old salty seamen, some know their shit and some never learned a thing. It depends like most things.
Mark Muller I couldn’t agree more.
pounding is the word , like a 44 gallon drum to windward in anything over 2 foot of seas, really to get floor space forward .
Good image Bill! Tom
She is a grand thing indeed.
Do I detect a slight prejudice against the new ? Probably not.. just my imagination. :)
You are the prejudice.
(I realised while typing you were probably being sarcastic but I just had to complete my train of thought and post anyway) Prejudice by definition means "judgement passed while lacking experience or understanding of the matter" and given how quickly you notice the boat falling off to leeward with a stalled out finkeel I would hazard a guess that Tom Cunliffe has at least spent enough time on a finkeel to have firsthand experience of that. As for the other part of the comparison his cruising on traditional gaffers is pretty well documented.
@@Flakzor123 No it was just a joke, taking the mickey. I was not belittling anything he said.
@@billbogg3857 I figured as much but I was too busy being impressed by my ability to string together coherent sentences before my morning coffee =)
@@Flakzor123 Same with me .You notice my now archaic usage of a past tense which derives from some obscure group of languages whose name escapes me. Perhaps from the Hindi like pyjamas :)
Lady Belle sure looks like a Westsail 28 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Hi Tom could you give your advice on bilge keels? I'm thinking of getting a Westerly konsort and was wondering if it would be safe to sail in blue waters and against knockdowns. Mick
Konsort is a good first boat. Built strong, lots of room below and not a bad sailing vessel. Not a blue water cruiser in my humble opinion. More of a coastal hopper, but if you are new to sailing that is what you need to learn the lines. The Westerly Owners Association is a great source of info. Also the ybw forum.
Thanks for the info. It's my dream to sail from Ireland or England to explore the Mediterranean! Would that be to much distance for coastal sailing? What be happy to hear your opinion on fin keel konsort?
@@directorstu Thanks for the info. It's my dream to sail from either Ireland or England to explore the Mediterranean! Would that be to much for coastal sailing and what do you think of a fin keel konsort?
@@michaellafferty9456 Going to the Med via the canals would be doable in a Konsort . Going via the bay of Biscay is a bit more iffy . Check out the Wildlings CZcams channel for the canal route to Med
Well you’ll leave us some decent videos Tom
Her undersides look quite similar to our boat, s/v Spirit, however Spirit was documented in 1947 , when you& I were born, Eh ?
A very good year!
I agree long keel is still best but crazy wing engine , best bum ever look at Elley Grey a GRP St. Malo pilot cutter replica for sale by Waypoint Yacht brokers Yarmouth I.O.W stunning .
What are you talking about 🤔
HAIL Waaaaaaa
Didn't they have a Harrison Butler?
Yes, they did. They outgrow her when their second son was born. Lady B should see them through well into teenage years.
If I was a sailor, I would prefer to sail the old timer.
A tug boat VS a speed boat. lol.
I'm no sailor, but the pitch on that prop looks a bit steep.
It does look like that, but actually that is a feathering propeller to minimise drag when sailing. Here, it's in the fully feathered position, hence the apparently coarse pitch. Well spotted by the way!
Not enjoyable to be pounding upwind in a steep, short chop. But I do scoot along in light winds.
get your teeth into that mr orca !!😁
This is why the English have lost the boat market. I have owned in 40 years 5 different types of keels on 8 boats from ultralight to very heavy displacements from 25 to 41 feet.
The best was a drop fin keel with a bulb on the end. Keel box was supported on the hull bottom and at the deck. Immensely strong on groundings. Done that. The rudder was transom mounted and could lift up.34-foot boat. I have hit various bottoms on fin keels, cosmetic damage only. Same as full keels.
Vv
Z
Tom is too sailing what wainwright was to hill walking.
Sorry, way too much chatter and not enough information on the subject.
Very sorry you were disappointed Henry. My channel isn't really about giving hard, empirical information. You can get that from my books. It's more about introducing folks to aspects of yachts and sailing they may not have thought about.
I love your chatter. Informative jovial discussions are what get's me thinking. I can read and analyse like anyone but having a broad view is what I lack wrt to boats. So Tom, you are appreciated by others.
Yawn yawn! I’m an old timer and I complain about new stuff! The old inefficient boat is better yeah yeah...!
Sorry you found the video boring but......you always have the off-switch option! As a matter of interest what would you like to watch (no cheeky reply please). Have fun afloat this summer. All best Tom
You had better read this: "Seaworthiness: The Forgotten Factor20 Sep 2007
by C. a. Marchaj"