The Lead Producer of Halo 3 ACTUALLY just said THIS...
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- čas přidán 21. 08. 2024
- Joe Tung the lead producer of Halo 3 and Destiny as well as the executive producer of Halo Reach just said more or less that live service is the way to go and the most 'pro player' way to do things.
Wow.
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#halo #destiny #bungie #343 #haloinfinite
Unfortunately, this is the state in Bungie now. This is not the Bungie that gave us Halo, it's is gone, replaced by a greedy corporate shell. 😔
That is true, but no one stays at one company forever…
@@maxmazzotti6651 true...
It's funny cause microsoft kept them in check, but everyone else said they were "slaving away"
Live service model games are nothing more than pay-to-win cell phone games with better graphics. I absolutely despise them.
Same. Thanks for watching.
What happened to the old games from 1st gen to early 8th gen?
What's even more hilarious is aisan gatcha games like Azur Lane, Arknights, Honkai, Genshin, Nikke, etc, have much higher quality and effort put into them compared to most western live service games. Plus I'd take cute anime girls over uglyfied female characters we have in recent western games.
@@justsomehalofan4386 I don't want either. Anime (for the most part) is cancer. Just because it is a lesser evil to Western slop does not bring much assurance to me.
Instead, I'd happily take classic retro games of 90s and 80s renown over any modern slop these days. Septerra Core, Army Men II, and PlanetScape Torment, are good games to start.
@@maxmazzotti6651Games aren’t made like that anymore because the modern model makes more money
‘30 year development cycle’ 🤣
We need a law that all software with a online connection component must also come with support for locally accessed networks.
This would also cover the legally grey zone we are in right now about banned players loosing access to products they payed for without a refund. Then they could just play on private servers.
@syd4952 I disagree with banning people from using software especially the way its done now. So many people support it its disturbing.
@@BrokenCircle1 problem is if someone is exploiting your product in a way that breaks TOS I don’t think they should be forced to give you server access which is a constant upkeep. They could say “well you haven’t lost access to our product, just the use of our servers.” Then the company gets to keep your money and you can still play, win win.
It’s the only way I could see we could convince law makers.
Even more so, if you don’t like how the developer is managing their online play then you can host or pay a host to run the multiplayer the way you want.
@@syd4952 Insee your point but my thing is that the TOS are often so broad and arbitrary some literally saying 'we can change it on the fly and make up a reason to ban you for any subjective reason at all and we don't need to provide proof'.
That's crazy. The whole 'liscence' thing needs to die too. Either I own the game or I dint.
@@syd4952 Not with any of those dead live service games I mentioned except I think the Command and Conquer one you could.
Bring back the $60 box model! It’s more long lasting
Nah I say drop it to $50 or $40
@@StarFreighterPilotGothJesus even cooler.
@@maxmazzotti6651 how I feel is if Indie companies can survive and make amazing games while charging $1-$30 plus dlc, then AAA should be able to survive with $40-$50 plus dlc
now its 70$
Halo died in 2010, 343 is just the rats and insects there to pick at the corpse down to and even at the bone. 🤯
I do wonder if most of the Bungie Halo devs left before Bungie even left Microsoft & started working on Destiny.
*ended
Halo would’ve ended even if Bungie continued it. The developer discussed in this video is proof of that
@@PackHunter117 So it's not such a bad thing that 343 is running it now?
@@FlamespeedyAMV I think they left when destinys story got fucked over and turned into dlc if I remember. Another of old school bungie devs last time I checked were working at certain affinity
"Don't ask questions, just consume product. And then get excited for next product."
If they can get you to spend 20 bucks on something they threw together they made money. If a gacha game can make you spend money on a new character you won't use, their stats are garbage, she's just cute, they made money. And the FOMO jeez I once caught myself and was like damn those youtubers were right.
@@rezorus8832 yup. Glad people are starting to wake up. Sadly alot of people still sleeping.
Live service is basically a way for developers to legally rob players
@@mcelfy1006 Yup. Thanks for watching.
@@BrokenCircle1 anytime, always pleasure to hear anyone discussing terrible business practices in gaming
developers don't even get the money lol
@@FlamespeedyAMV dead ass, publishers don’t even lift finger in most cases and they get all the cash, granted they will pay developers paychecks from there but still
@FlamespeedyAMV True it's more of a publisher and CEO thing though some devs I do think profit off this stuff too.
Some of it has ti trickle down.
They answer to shareholders. Big publisher games are just a wealth transfer from gamers to the shareholders, who are the top priority.
Yup
I prefer the absolute worst of Bungie than 343's "best"
@@nagiaoe2434Fair enough. I think 343 is far worse. At least Bungie can make something that's satisfying to play for more than an hour but still this is messed up.
Not hyped for Marathon, and I've lost faith in Destiny 2, but I'll still play the first Destiny.
Yeh. If bungies worst was halo reach then sign me up.
Bungie did better with Destiny then 343 did with Halo... A game they didn't even make.
Sorry but i have to disagree 343 is terrible but at least they never removed stuff you paid for
Live service dev’s always have time to add crap to the store and making the store functional but not the core of the game itself.
Yup. Legit every live service game I've played is like that.
God I hate that mindset of "they will just add it later" and then you have something like OW2 where the thing they hyped up was trash and got more of the in-game PvE story mode canned. I know the LS I brought up was made by Blizzard before the MS buyout but still to see a former Halo dev saying this hurts man.
#Nojoe
Thanks for watching.
(343) “we hired people who hate Halo to work on Halo“
#NoJoe
Thanks for watching :)
9:00-9:33 Gold
#NoJoe
Lol thanks for watching and making it that far!
I almost cut that part. Was afraid it might be too much but I said f*ck it and left it in. I'm glad I did.
I think that is extremely ridiculous for that happening in real life
3:50 EXACTLY! If you enjoy being charged yearly for ten years, to potentially make a promise they may not deliver on? How does that benefit players?
‘Live service’ is definitely a cancer. The term itself I find to be code word for ‘incomplete at launch’. Expect content drip, monetisation focus (desperate customisation), technical issues, bs battle passes, pay to win etc. And more often that live service tries to use addictive gameplay loops to constantly engage players.
It fragments the experience rather than provide a fully finished work of art on release that you can play any time and like you said, actually own.
It’s really a way for the dev to make more bank, but the games quality suffers.
And honestly, I never had a problem with DLC/ map packs back in the day. Devs jumping on the F2P bandwagon to “patch in features later”, [Tung.] is f*ckin ludicrous.
I remember BF4 would regularly update their game with patches. And sell DLC. So tungs argument fails there.
I think if an executive aims to ‘sell as many copies as they can’ tells me the project is doomed to be mediocre from the start. #nojoe and f*ck 343. 😉
@itsdw2323 thanks for watching that far in and yeah I agree.
DLC was superior to microtransactions. I just dislike when said DLC is planned for the original release and cut to sell later.
I miss the days of actual expansion packs. Think Yuris Revenge for RA2 back in what was it 2002? Got a whole new faction, new campaign, new maps (alot of them) new soundtrack, new units for both existing factions. All for like 40 bucks. That was a good deal.
Hell even Skyrim kind of had that with the Dragonborne DLC. $15 price tag for a massive open world island with dozens of new quests, items, skins, a new player home, loads of stuff.
Agree 1000% 'live service' is just clever language to say 'this game won't have much but will cost a fortune'. It's lazy and predatory.
#fire343 #NoJoe
@@BrokenCircle1 You gonna cover the hailey stuff? Most of the things I saw on x seem like controversy and rumours just for the sake of keeping eyes on Halo.
Like the move to PlayStation. I think it’s all bullsh*t.
@itsdw2323 It wouldn't surprise me if they do put Halo on Playstation but I've intentionally not spoken on it because I'm waiting for more facts rather than rumors to come out.
As for Hailey...yes. I have seen her stuff for a while. Interestingly certain tweets about Frank O Connor that had been up forever went missing around the time Frank got fired...I think there's something to that.
She has also stated there are some things she hasn't shared yet for legal reasons.
Where there's smoke there's usually a fire.
I have some bigger projects in the works. Stay tuned.
The modern audience is definitely a lot of the problem. All people need to do is say NO.. Stop buying all of their stupid shit.
Yeah but sadly the modern audience is full of alot of children with no parenting and manchildren.
@@BrokenCircle1 Yeah, unfortunately true.
As a millennial who grew uo with classic Halo, I just want to point out that most gamers nowadays aren't Millennials. They are mostly Gen z, maybe gen alpha with a sprinkle of the older generations. These younger people do not quite understand what gaming was like back in the day. Finished product games, physical media, no play to win, etc.
So their standard of what to base the gaming industry is what they grew up on. Which is probably games as a service stuff, like Fortnight, cod war zone, destiny, Overwatch, etc.
Yeah that's true but the thing that gets me is their absolute arrogance and unwillingness to look back even just a few years.
When I was young and even to this day I've always been receptive and wanting to look back at what came before. I was very young when Daggerfall and Arena came out yet I played them. I bought the original Fallouts to get into them, I've played (and enjoyed) Bosconian, Dig Dug, Galaga, Toypop, etc.
Megaman Legends is one of my favorite old games.
It's like kids today *shakes my cane at them* have NO appreciation for what came before which is so weird because when I was growing up in the early 2000s me and my friends would KILL to get our hands on an old nintendo or a PS1 to play Army Men on splitscreen or whatever.
Today its like...they just don't care. They're all hooked on this rampant narcissism "me me me" they are the center of the universe and everyone else is wrong. Where is the evidence? Where is the proof? "Get good bruh"
What a joke. I fear not only for gaming but society.
I still play OG battlefront, kotor, halo, and on steam, I play a bunch of indie games, almost all under $40 and they're amazing!
Same the first battlefront is my fav it’s just a shame that the highest player count is like 5 people now.
Me too lol. Getting myself GoG copies soon so I have them DRM free.
@mhiv466 I did biy the remake from Aspyr, just for compatability and playability. Had issues trying to get controllers and button layouts to work for the old versions. So far only bug has been an annoying audio glitch that just sounds like static from time to time. Really wish we got a true KOTOR remaster.
Damn FPS games are really fucked aren’t they ? Thank god I don’t care for them anymore. Outside of ID software, there aren’t any good FPS studios out there. Embarrassing.
Metroid Prime 4 Beyond is coming out next year!
The only reason this guy is arguing for live service is because modern developers want to give the bare minimum and receive the maximum reward while pretending like its somehow consumer friendly. its a lie. for it because they are entitled people who think doing work for the game is slavery. this is what rockstar has done with gta online for years. Most of its online content for a good while was already in the games files at cut single player DLC that milked for YEARS and people ate it up and acted like it was so plentiful. They had the hunter chopper in the games files since launch and only waited till 2017 to add them.
The problem also does extend to the players, anyone who thinks that digital items or experiences somehow have limited quantity have NO idea how gaming works and actually think its real life. these are the types of people who think a FOMO store is justified because the items in the shop have limited quantity's. These are the same people who defend every scummy thing developers do and say "Gaming isn't bad now. We just grew up" that infamous gaslight I covered. Most of these people are of the younger generation and they are so unaware of this all because they grew up with mobile games that normalized this stuff. Its just baffling how they will always bend over backwards to defend the people that have none of their interests at heart and only seek to make gaming worse. Its just so scummy how they defend it too. its always the ad hominin attacks and gaslighting. they can't make a decent argument for anything.
Thanks for the video. I may have forgot to talk about some things in this comment but. I don't like live service and I think the people who argue for it are scummy money grubbing people who want to gaslight that the past was bad and their slop now is somehow better. Yeah getting fully completed games and having devs that didn't hold scream outs at GDC was somehow not better according to modern game devs but this is what you get when you hire people that don't want to do their jobs.
You also have alot of old bungie staff liking anti 343 posts and talking about how better gaming was back then. Alot of old devs are. I think THAT should be the final nail in the coffin into these peoples gaslighting!
Thanks for watching. I think alot of it comes down to maximizing profit. Like you said they don't want to work anymore but even moreso they do what works from a psychological standpoint in terms of manipulating their playerbase into giving them more money.
They've taken 'work smarter not harder to an extreme level'.
Reminds me of a guy I used to work with. He told me he intentionally would show up stoned, not do his job well, etc because then the boss wouldn't rely on him for anything and would eventually lay him off where he'd go on to collect unemployment and food stamps again. Dude was literally working the system.
Granted he never got rich off of that because how could you. The real way to get rich is to manipulate millions of directionless young people into grinding a virtual job that pays them nothing.
The only thing that I think makes halo life service slightly better is because the MCC will hopefully just collect it when it’s times up. unfortunately, that didn’t happen for halo five
in total agreeance with your message here but one thing to add is that the xbox Halo Infinite campaign can now be played offline. I started up a post on the now shut 343 forums on this very topic which was seen by a lot of people and I actually think it had some say in them patching it. Now you can play the digitally downloaded Infinite campaign entirely offline if you set your xbox machine to home
The game I have the most amount of time in is Rimworld at 18k hours. But that’s just because it’s all I could play all through high school and middle school.
@@syd4952 Fair enough. I've seen that game. It looks like one you could play that long.
I forgot to mention Red Alert 2. That I wouldn't be surprised if I had around 10-15k hours in since I've played it since I was like 5.
The problem with live service models is not that they are a bad thing, but that they are viable in small numbers universally whilst under moderation. As evidenced by Helldivers 2 at launch, a live service model is viable, but the primarily reason that kills them is that it needs players at all times, and it needs little competition in the same/similar genre space. People only have an absolute minimum of 24 hours each day, with roughly 6-8 of them spent sleeping, and the average person spends about 8 of those remaining hours working, meaning on average, one would in theory only have 6 hours a day to play something, if we were to include eating, driving to work, cleaning, showering, and more. And that's assuming nothing else happens. In fact, an estimate I came to was that on average, most working class people would only have 2 hours a day to play any games on a routine that is viable, with each of those hours being in the morning and in the evening.
These limits of time are decently enough for games of old that can be worked on over time, but this, alongside the fact the entire industry trend chased live service to the point of having dozens of them all at once, led to so many games dying insanely fast not because they were bad (which most were), not because they cost lots of money (which a bunch were), but because people did not have enough time and availability to sustain them all at once.
An actual proper working live service would be 1-2 live service games in a similar trend, so let's say, Call of Duty goes live service, and then you have Helldivers 2 be live service, so you have a primarily PvP game and a primarily PvE game be live service, this will then appeal to the competitive shooter fans and casual/coop shooter fans respectively. Then, if more would be needed, there can be a dedicated RPG live service, which would not have much cross over into the shooter genre, meaning most of its playerbase would not be lost at times to the other live services. This would be sustainable, as this would mean as long as you figured out player retention by making the games fun as well as have high replayability, solo or not, you can keep the players up and available.
The reason live service crashed was because we have about 20 online only live service shooter games out there. Does not matter that a bunch have good gameplay, some have cool ideas, and few are/were actually genuinely good, having 20 live services means you have 20 different games to play in 2-6 hours per player. And almost every single one of them had time limited battlepasses. Meaning at worst, you had to grind 20 individual 3 month long battlepasses with only 2-6 hours at most EACH DAY.
I want to point out I spent about 1-2 hours a day grinding Destiny 2 Season of the Seraph for all the deepsight resonance focusing, having only 23 days left to do it, and finished about 7 days before it with an original estimated finish time of 4 days. I don't have to work, I had the whole day to myself for that. Which means, I spent about the minimum average working person's time to play games grinding one small part of a SINGLE game.
Live services at best, as shown with Helldivers 2's first three months, can be sustainable and effective and provide proper content. But at worst, which is when it's a year after release, not fun, or predatory, it becomes directly vampiric to people's time.
And this is also without even counting other bs that could happen, such as MTX and DLC not being able to be refunded, or even expanding how long it takes to grind, as well as FOMO forcing you to grind 'now' instead of 'at your own pace', which can instantly cripple an entire game's lifespan without going free to play and/or on life support.
Live service is good in responsible hands, like people and independent singular creators; companies and corporations are NOT responsible hands, whatsoever.
damn I wish people like Mint could just leave the franchise to rest. If only they actually cared about knowing 343 doesn't care about the games/community and there is no reason to support them.
But he makes a ton of money. Pretty sure he's partnered with them PLUS he gets alot of views from shills and children that don't know any better.
This is long. Read at your own risk
Infinite was the first Halo I played, I thought, having to buy colors was BS, but I played because it was fun, and it was all I could afford. *Being free to play* I thought, I wonder what the old multiplayer was like and wanted to experience it. I didn't have money, so i didn't buy any of the Halo's, I played a little bit of Halo CE to 3's campaign at my friend's house, but I was watching Halo videos seeing the old multiplayer, and my reaction was wait. You can customize your character anyway you want and choose the color as well. The gameplay looked fun as well. Almost every video I watched was saying 3 was the best, and at the time, I was watching Hew Moran's "If the Halo games were a family" and was like, "If I'm gonna get one I'm gonna get 3". Two days later, I got a video by Hew Moran in my inbox and clicked it, and it was about all the old Halo's. CE to Reach, including ODST online severs shutting down, I was devastated. I bought MCC and tried to find a game in Halo 3, but I was waiting in the social games queue for like 30 straight minutes. I tried finding games through browser, and there were hardly any severs with normal gamemodes like Capture the Flag, King of the Hill, or Slayer. It was a bunch of weird custom games. In situations where I did get into a proper social game, I got sweated on and wasn’t able to learn how to play properly due to the long queues. I haven't played all of the Campains either, I got through a little bit of each one, and I finished Reach. *multiple times* I almost finished 3. Reach is my favorite campaign, tho. I'll play them... eventually...
I'm sorry to hear, Halo is just completely dead. Sorry that you missed out on a golden era, all I hope for now is for someone to come around and disassemble MCC and make it into something good and hopefully revive the playerbase but its a naive dream given how much has happened.
Part of my likes the current direction of the industry purely because it’s absolutely hilarious! So glad I’m able to have fun with the various things I like, occasionally check out newer things that are actually good, and play user generated content. I love me a good dumpster fire and watching the industry pump out repetitive garbage I have no desire to play, but EAGERLY await rant videos on is one of my FAVORITE past times.
I watched to the point with the hashtag, but I’m not going to do it because CZcams has blocked my comments in the past that used those and/or have links.
So glad I stopped caring about Bungie after they left Halo and can laugh hysterically at what a dumpster fire they’ve become. Hiring people who work at casinos to design their loot drops would be COMPLETELY justified in my mind of and ONLY if it attracted my boy BossManJack for a gamble session. If you haven’t watched him go from winning big to losing it all you NEED to check it out. So happy Kick exists because of that.
Sometimes there's also an argument from a small minority saying that, "Well, once a live service game has shut down, the community & fans can still revive it with using their servers and etc". Like how so actually? Sure there are some Online games that's being revived, and has been revived such as Need For Speed World, Age Of Empires Online, WoW Classic and etc. getting the master server isn't that easy for the fans to revive. Even some online games like Halo Online game got taken down because Microsoft didn't want the fans to revive it.
Other then that, some revival games are very difficult to get through, like for eg online only games on the PlayStation 3 & PS4. Is not like on PC where you can through some hoops and so on. I remember somebody saying that, it's impossible to play Killzone 3 Multiplayer Online on the PS3, bcs it requires some sort of component to connect to the official servers, most Killzone 3 online games these days are just hosted through a private server kinda thing, due to the PS3 not being able to play online or the servers not being available.
Yeah when destiny 1 came out a while back I preordered it came with the season pass and I only got like one free Dlc and after I saw the first DLC was 60$ I was like that's a whole fucking new game fuck that and never bought them I uninstalled it after that and never played it again
People who love halo while under crunch makes a good product. people who dislike the core ideals of what makes the IP great while also under crunch..makes an abysmally received product.
This entire video hits so hard tbh. Especially the part about playing the games years & years in the future. This is one exact point I kept telling to different people here and there for years and years by now, just to be greeted with a cuckoo sign, mockery, or outright opposition like if I was saying something physically fundamentally wrong.
It is so depressing to realize of all the things we might be getting now with the current level of tech, tools, and visuals we're getting this kinda treatment first and foremost by the industry, like it matters to higher ups the most. And while it might be true on a moment's notice in a short term span, it will never be as important for the players/customers long-term, and seeing how things aren't getting better any time soon I just hope that one day the industry as we know it these days collapses giving way to more customer-oriented companies who would learn the lesson & not fall for the greed that much.
Now that I re-read all I wrote above it looks so silly & impossible, haha. It will never become a thing because human greed is insatiable & endless, so it's more likely the rotten industry of today would rather go for more shady, more scammy and/or stealthier tactics to just keep themselves afloat yet still profitable as long as humanly possible, period.
#NoJoe
Thanks for watching. I agree wholeheartedly. There were alot of people for this video that gave me a hard time about it. Sad people have been conditioned into accepting the modern state of things.
Bungie used to have the indie developer philosophy of doing game development for passion, but as they grew, they started going towards the triple a developer philosophy where it's less about passion and more about money. It's a shame cuz they had dignity for their franchieses in the past.
"Die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villan"
At the place I work at, lots of us are around 25-30 years old. But we have the occasional 19 year old GENZ kid that is starting out their career. ALL of them, still play old games, because theyre available. Yes.. they still play fortnite or helldivers2, but they all know about halo 2 and halo 3, pokemon gold/silver, etc. Because those old games were good, and you can still play them.
All of them also say that gaming sucks now. They say Ubisoft sucks, etc.
I mean.. it’s definitely better for developers in the short term at the cost of goodwill. It’s only good for the player in the sense that the game will be so bad and if it starts to cost more than $40 the player can walk away and cut their losses. But I’d rather see a good complete game and give $60-$80 for a game with LAN capable multiplayer and end up loving it so much I happily end up buying $1000s worth of merch for years
Yeah that would be nice.
Honestly, It's starting to feel as if no mainstream game company gives half a crap about us, the people buying their products. It's as if though we're just mindless cattle to them, so they can shove anything down our collective throats, and we'll just buy it, regardless of quality, and give this year's Summer Gamefest, and the rest of the game showcase festivals, I don't see much change. Just mindless slop for the masses.
#NoJoe
Thanks for watching and yeah sadly I have to agree.
@@BrokenCircle1 You're welcome, man. You're one of the rare gems on CZcams who's not afraid to say the truth. Toxic positivity does no good for the gaming industry.
what if there was a way to make a custom server that allowed us to preserve these games like a physical one that you can keep at home and have it be able to allow others to connect to it. I'm not a game dev so I don't know if that's even possible but I would like to think it is.
BIG FACTS!!! Thats why I only play old games like RA2 and of course Halo 3
I forgot to mention Red Alert 2...I probably do have near 10k hours in that game hahaha.
I sure as hell don't like models where I don't own what I've paid for, as do a majority of my friends, and most people I've met online. Those strangers I've talked to on places like discord (screw reddit, screw twitter), whether or not they're apart of the lgbtq+ community, tend to hold a similar view. If purchasing it isn't owning it, piracy isn't theft.
#NoJoe
Thanks for watching!
Here's the thing, I'm convinced that the modern gaming community WON'T say no. They'll willingly give AAA studios chance after chance after chance and willingly be fucked over because they're afraid that any big backlash will mean the end of their favorite series. This is everything from visual novels to AAA releases.
I'm convinced that gamers are terrified that if they hold devs or publishers accountable for ANYTHING, their series will go bye-bye. It's the only reason I can think of for accepting outright scammy business practices, hostile treatment of communities, and broken games while getting more vitriolic than ever with detractors. We saw it with Infinite - 343 was all but saying that they saw fans as little more than $$$ and modern Halo fans just ate up the slop slowly trickled out while proclaiming how Halo was savwd at every drop while going on the attack against anyone who evn implied otherwise. It'll only be fixed if we have another gaming crash.
And awesomee on you for calling out Mint Blitz. I think more CZcamsrs deserve public shaming for how they've lied and running damage control for 343.
Finally! Someone who Agrees with me about Live Service Games! You asked the Big Questions! The Ones I have been Asking myself for Years!
I liked when some games where live service and some where not. Actual diversity of game experiences unlike today
Fair enough.
Dude Destiny 2 is so front loaded with so many Fucking DLC's I don't play it because id have to spend like 120$ to catch up, Same thing with World of Warcraft, so many expansions, and the Level caps and retconning of Gear you grinded for...I bet they do the something with future halo games....if there will be any.,..
This is like a serial killer wearing Bungie's skin. Like how 343i is a war criminal wearing Halo's uniform.
Can we check if this guy helped think up the content vault for D2? I have a few choice words for him and anybody else who think live service games which cut paid content are good.... honestly if something like what halo 5 was meant to be, a complete halo game with extra content added in to keep the games multiplayer fresh. Before the next game launches...
@9:34 Such a good point.
MCC isn't totally fixed, there a massive bug in Halo 3 multiplayer when 343's skins crash the game after a match.
I do NOT understand how you can argue Live-Service benefits ANYONE on the consumer side...
I think we can all name on one, maybe 2 hands $60 box releases that were unplayable on release, not terrible games, those we always had, but flat unplayable, probably less than 10 or 20.
Now on the other hand i can name only maybe 10 Live service games we could enjoy for a full 10 years they advertised... They release like 10 a quarter and most fail, the decent ones are eventually iterated anyways so we lose the old one when the new game is made if not in the year of release.
I 100% agree on what you have said throughout the video. We need to go back to where we can play campaign missions without needing to be connected to a server.
I remember getting Destiny 1 and being really excited for it. I sold it within two weeks.
What really pissed me off about Halo Infinite was that it was free multiplayer but paid campaign.
Yeah then everyone touted it as 'free to play'...
Literally third of the content is locked behind a full priced paywall, another third is absurdly overpriced microtransactions, and the third that's free barely works.
Halo Infinite is a free sample. It isn't truly free.
10:30 lmao nice tbag
Oh that lol. Yeah that was actually a guy who used to be on my Discord during casual gamenights. Emphasis on the casual part.
He used to sweat CONSTANTLY, record peoples voices WITHOUT their knowledge or consent, then post them online for clout. Guy got so mad when I banned him for making the experience unpleasant for everyone else lol.
Funniest part is the guy could only do well when he was camping power weapon spawns, noob comboing, or sitting in a corner somewhere.
Going against him with a BR or DMR and he was basically average.
Live service is the Triple A early access. Just cut your losses if the marketing doesn't work.
#NoJoe
Live service games are one of the biggest cancers in modern gaming.
I love you for this video broken circle.
Thanks for watching that far in. Love you too
Doom 2016 & Doom Eternal proved the FPS games can thrive in that box model
Very true. Now all we need are DRM free versions.
It's funny because the only decent content they make that people love is the more box product-like content they make ( campaigns, dungeons, raids) and all the other seasonal live service slop everyone HATES
I'm guessing his point was superior profits. A released bundle of code that can be added to for extra profits would allow less dev hours to save company spending, well maximize profits.
Live service I think was dreamed up as a MMO concept for non rpgs. But. It.... just doesnt mesh.
Id say the end of Destiny 1 finally got the concept in balance. Single player feeling and story, but can hop in to anyones game while also seeing others in their own battles. Biggest vibe was Vault of Glass raids could be watched starting by randos in patrol at the entrance. A hype/goal/mystery tease to learn more.
And a lot of D1 felt it had things in place for a single user, not designed to punish soloing or gimmick MTX lockouts.
Grindy totally. But with a dash of luck. It was the achievement of dedication or skill/planning I enjoyed. D2 is a number of players or luck game with skill factors maybe peaking around a corner.
I hear a lot of Warframe. Its good. But more leaning into a MMO design, D1 just had that charm of both perfectly. And FPS I suppose.
This conversation makes me recall the original talking points of NFTs (with lots of my own interpretations). A item you can own/rewarded and take with you to other games. At least some, with a supported new game release shelf life I would assume.
Then it just turned into more DLC cosmetics with more pricetag. 😅 And thats phrased in its benefit.
Screw their profits. Make a good game that people enjoy. You'll see profits.
@@BrokenCircle1 Yeah. Worked for a company I had the same arguments with. I wanted to focus on customer service so they felt like coming again. They wanted me to sell 2 tvs per person. (Loosely speaking)
I always had the highest stats. Rating and sales (cause more peeps looked for me) but since I didnt eat their shit and smile. Let go. Closed down a year later.
A good game brings more players thus more money. I assume.
But I was deep in the know during BLOPS 3. A fire show that was. And worst selling game or something. Yet worst selling cause of all the MTX and other lazy things.
Yet apparantly the profits they made in 1 year tripled every other game release they ever made or something. Cementing that design concept. Done Bad or good, is always an option now and into the future.
Hell even if all live service titles are required by law when servers shut down to push a single player patch. Even half assed would be nice.
I know ill replay Destiny 1 single player from time to time. Its already a complete package. Just needing a server.
You are 100% right, on everything I’ve been saying for years halo and live service wouldn’t mix, people said I was full of shit, well who’s laughing now, thier hasn’t been a decent halo game since 3 reach and odst, and you mentioned destiny, well if you didn’t know destiny 2 actually removed campaign story you had to pay for from the game and thier excuse was thiers not enough room for it all and then they made it free to play, funny how the cash shop gets frequent updates as the remove more content,
the only good game I think that does live service right is deep rock galactic, buy game get game, everything seasons wise is free and you can grind and play at your own pace, no fomo, and if you want to support them thiers like 9 small support packs that’s it, no cash shop, no bs.
Oh my god that's awful...so wait Bungie removed the campaign people had to PAY for?
These companies should be getting sued.
I’d rather play tron 2.0, than any live service trash
I completely agree. I’ve worked 13 years in the game and industry under the Ubisoft banner… recently departed with 100 other people… we are all tired of this way of gaming where you buy everything digital and then you’re forced to buy extra content that’s already in the game but it’s behind the payroll.. digital content and digital gaming sucks quick and easy to download stuff gone the days where you put a disc in or a cartridge and it’s an instant game. There’s no social interaction anymore. Everybody locked away in their homes talking to each other or just a voice through an earpiece… it’s not healthy.. things really need to change.
Wow. I am honored to have someone with so much experience in the industry here in my comments.
Thanks for standing up for us all and refusing to be part of the messed up system.
@@BrokenCircle1 it’s actually 13 years experience. I’ve just read it. I didn’t realise I’ve put 30 but I’d rather be honest.
@@WaynesWorldUnlimited Either ways that's impressive.
i think live service can be good to tell an ongoing story, but i have yet to see it be done well
Yeah in theory for sure. It's just it always comes with all these catches every time.
Live service is starting to feel like Communism...no matter how many times it's tried the people at the top get everything while everyone else gets nothing.
@@BrokenCircle1 more often than not, you get some cool cosmetics for 30-60 bucks and then you gotta wait a little while for some new ones
also #NoJoe
@TSK_Silver Cosmetics should not be $30. On a paid game microtransactions shouldn't even exist really especially when they're from big companies.
If they are going to have them $5 max.
@@BrokenCircle1And they should be skins. NO armor. NO weapons. NO vehicles. NO equipment. NO unique assassinations. ONLY skins.
Destiny 2... Shows that it wouldn't be the case
The worst thing is that there are people who dare to protect this fraudulent system that thinks more about profit than customer pleasures.
I hope that in the next few years the indie developers will take over, but it will be unlikely there are more sheep than us and they will not stop falling into this trap because they always forget or deny the fact that the game sucks and prefer to boast about their level in the battlepass and be the biggest pigeon
This is why indie devs are going to grow and dominate over corporations in the gaming industry.
Live services need a large number of players to justify their life. Look at The Avengers game or Suicide Squad. The crew was taken offline only for modders to successfully change the game to work offline.
Minecraft is a bit different thanks to Java.
It's unregulatable. Bedrock is worse as there's a marketplace and realms.
Older games are still being played because they work offline.
Internet where I live isn't 24/7/52 always working. It's Comcast, who own the physical lines. Thankfully we don't have a data cap anymore. I ended up going over once and tried buying my own. Long story short my parents were offered no cap if they paid 20 dollars more on their internet bill. Note this is the 2nd best bandwidth tier.
Lol f*ck Comcast.
Okay after reading this article, now I'm really extremely pissed off. Screw 343 and Bungie!😖🤦🏾♂️
Theres losing your touch, then theres going batshit insane. Thats what this guy just did, going from halo 3 to making statements like this
I mean you can be a good game designer but very greedy and short sighted as well
Make a 60 dollar game then make a smaller game with some of that money you grossed and use it to fund a dlc two years later and make it 40 dollars and sell 5 million copies in the first week. I just described what fromsoft did in the last two years and they are the most respected, trustworthy developers out there at the moment
5:38 - Yup.
The GOLDEN STANDARD always promised and thought of.... is HALO 3, with all the gametypes, features, forge, weapons, etc AT LAUNCH, and then extra stuff added to reasonably charge for cosmetics.
But it's NEVER that. Every "live service" game 343 has made is ALWAYS barebones -- as is EVERY live service game -- as that's the entire point -- avoid over-delivery at EVERY point, and ONLY develop features/content that can promise an ROI -- whether it being early service player population boost, or direct sales/profit.
we will NEVER get a full-featured live service, especially one that's fair. Testing, polish, content etc all take time/cost money and hence "unnecessary" costs are avoided.
Even more obvious when a LARGE pool of money is dangled amongst MANY projects, and EACH has to compete for MAXIMUM ROI, and if one profit has $X-$1 than another, the lesser project is canned.
I'm not against live service games, as a concept. But they suck at making them, and it disgusts me how they use it as an excuse for their incompetence. They are NOT competent enough to create a live-service game that is either worth your time or money. Worst still, such games tend to fall down the trap of listening to a vocal minority, which then throws the balance and fun of the game off until it becomes unenjoyable or unplayable.
Like, the last time I enjoyed a 'live service free-to-play' game was Robocraft, and it was the first time I started spending money on such a game. But then the devs just destroyed everything I liked about it due to whiners, completely redesigning the game in such a way that it sucked all the fun out of it, making all my purchases (and more importantly, my fun designs) pointless. And now I'm so weary of such games I'm afraid to approach ANY sort of 'live service' model, because for me that means 'expiration date for fun'.
So when I see this same thing apply to game franchises that already exist that I loved, I just have to write them off. I'm so sick and tired of games not being feature complete, or malicious updates ruining what was fun. I've never played the 'wait for the next one, it'll be better' game. It's because people have no self control that I've had to abandon the mainstream gaming industry entirely.
#NoJoe I will be making a blog post about this on my game dev blog.
Thanks for watching!
The only live service I know is good for me is splatoon 2-3, you bought the game and entire costumizable equipment and weapons are free, no micros transaction but in game currency that you work hard for from grinding and fun events
I would have to say Pal world and Craftopia which I have been playing as of recently are good golden modals for live service games.
I havn't had that level of fun in ages i was living a child hood dream with palworld it was the pokemon game we should have always had.
But every live service game will never be fully complete it will never be a done project until the server dies
I agree with everything said. Live service games are terrible. Not being able to play a game you paid for is not right. Having a physical disc that is a glorified unlimited code card until the servers go down is insane. I honestly feel bad for the kids 10 years younger than me. When i grew up on lego star wars, battlefront, minecraft, halo, cod, and all of nintendo games, I can still go back and play every one of those. But these kids that grew up playing played fornite, pubg, and warzone will never be able to play the game they grew up with
Also that flag cap with the hornet was insane. Looked like a fun match
It wasn't that impressive of a cap. It was a casual gamenight that I host weekly usually so no one was really sweating.
Link is in the description if you want in on that.
@Broken Channels you forgot to mention lego universe’s revival dark flame universe (DLU)
I did not know that was a thing.
Yeah it’s been around for awhile to be honest though the only reason development even got finished was because LCDR another revival team had partnered up with DLU awhile ago, though it sucked because DLU decided to go open source instead of hosting a server like they initially mentioned.
Took me way to long to see that live-service is just code for attempting to create artificialy inflated addiction. Sad to say, but the last game I played where I was playing an online experience just to enjoy it was the first 4 seasons of Apex Lengends. Every online multiplayer live service I played after that was more or less just filling virtual bars.
"Live Service" and "Early Access" have just become terms for developers to use to excuse taking months, if not years to add features to games that previous entries used to have at launch.
That combo of just trying to make the game as addicting as possible regardless of fun factor, plus excusing unfinished games for extended periods of time, has really hurt my joy for online gaming. Little to no effort for game presentation certainly doesn't help either.
Might as well make a live service highway simulator, then maybe we can at least enjoy watching ourselves be robbed live while playing it. #NoJoe
Let's go back to bullying studios for making garbage. It worked for the Sonic movie, it could work for us. Let's just get as toxic as 343i and the other shit companies have become.
I think the only live service game that I really enjoy and have stuck with for the long turm is path of exile.
I haven't played that one
The irony with the live service concept is that I use to be supportive of it decades ago, back when it only just existed through MMOs like Ultima IX, RuneScape, and MapleStory. The devs of all of these games were humble and actually focused on trying to provide honest service. Now, neither Ultima XI nor its devs exist anymore, and Tencent RuneScape and modern Nexon's MapleStory have devolved into a gambleware fest. The latter always had a cash shop system to compensate for free-to-play since the early 2000s, but at least it was respectful and did not get in the way of gameplay value. Now its Gacha Haven. MapleStory M is extremely addictive for all of the wrong reasons, so much that I hated it to death now. It took me 1 year and quarter to finally convince my self to stop playing that cursed mobile game and uninstall it from my phone. It will even try to ensnare the best and most vigilant of anti-gambleware gamers. I almost gave in to the dark gacha traps.
RuneScape was a different matter. I felt like I wasted years of my subscription on a game that I witnessed turn from a fair freemium MMO, to a toxic cesspit, to a greedy cesspit, to finally a Woke circus cabal in bed with Sino-jank and greed. Did you know that membership used to be $5 (I think £7 at the time)? Now its a tier of payment options; lowest being $7.89 or something. On top of all that, RuneScape now has Premiere VIP Membership - an overrated special tier that just grants you special purchase options in their gambleware store Treasure Hunter, the Yak Track event rewards, and of course the EXP portal at Grand Exchange.
RS3 is a Gacha game now... How the mighty have fallen...
this is exactly my thoughts the moment i saw that article
also isn't he making a moba battle royale? no thanks
Thanks for watching
Bungie is in the Skibidy Toilet!
#NoJoe
Live service is the worst thing to happen to gaming.
Agree...sadly i pretty much checked off on gaming...minus Tf2 and Css and Gmod..so Team fortress 2 and counter strike source count as live service...? Cause if so...i will retract my statement
But seriously it really hurts seeing that this is how the gaming industry has evolve....
@@beetlecoin4633 Those games are how live service should be.
@@115spt2 yeah like he does have a point but ye, those are kind of live service done right....shame gaming peaked in the 2000s...
@@beetlecoin4633 I agree with everything he said, and gaming definitely peaked in 2000s.
Pretty much. Thanks for watching and making it that far in.
Yea, you´re right. I still remember when i started War Thunder, i knew i was getting into a Hellscape, but i desperatly wanted my childhood Dream of a vehicle game where all kinds of vehicle types battle it out on a gaint battlefield, to come true. And that game was the closest what i could find to realizing that.
Sadly, it turned out to be a Monkeys Paw Wish for me. Its like my Dream got twisted and corrupted into a Nightmare.
Yet, do to lack of alternatives i wasted over 8000 Hours and just as much Money (€) on that game.
My Innocent Chilhood Dream and the deseperation from it nhot being realized for 2 decades, combined with being seriously mentally sick, plus being autistic. I was the perfect Host to leech off.
Starting that Game was one of, if not the, worst Mistake of my Life.
What game are you playing at 12:51
Command and Conquer Renegade. I did a video on it a while back. It's pretty good but not without its flaws. Old game.
I dont mind a live service product long as they actually make it good on launch. Helldiver's 2 was such example. 👍
See with me the online only gets me. No preservation there so no point but to each their own, thanks for watching.
@@BrokenCircle1Games can be good with bad business models
I really don’t wanna say this but maybe Halo should officially just cease. No more Halo stuff. Bungie can’t even “save” Halo.
Agreed. 343 is violating its corpse at this rate. Put it to rest.
The only way this stops is if they no longer make money from these tactics. We have to decide to stop supporting them completely.
Yup. Hence why I'm not buying their garbage anymore.
I still genuinely do not understand the difference between Live Service, and expansion packs and updates.
@hrthrhs expansion packs were larger one or two time purchases.
Live service is smaller, more expensive, goes on indefinitely and is almost never able to be truly owned. Also usually strictly online based.
@@BrokenCircle1 True, but I still feel the differences aren't that large, if are even note worthy. I mean, a non-LS game can just have small expansions or be always-online. And a LS game can have very large content drops with high costs.
Out of all the games I've played, which I'm sure isn't a huge amount, the only game which had felt like a 'Live Service' game is Helldivers 2. That would have updates several times a week, even if it was a simple update to the game's story. Also new weapons and equipment aren't just made available to you, the player base has to complete objectives first.
I'd be lying if there isn't at least one Live-Service game that got me hooked. I even flunked out of my first year of college because of it. It was STAR TREK ONLINE, a now 14 years old MMORPG that is still very much active. The story in that game is decent enough as a long time 'Trek fan but my biggest gripe with it is how addictive grinding it's in game currency is. I truthfully don't even enjoy doing it anymore with almost 11K game-play hours logged (yes I'll admit that) and yet I find myself still doing it all the time and I cannot for the life of me figure out why. Especially when you consider that the store items in S.T.O are completely 100% optional.
@JohnBachofer Hmm. You my friend and I mean this in the most respectful way possible, have a problem.
My live service game was Halo 5. I was so dissapointed when it came out when I was at the end of my teens but I played it anyways.
Every day I raged at it, got frustrated with the lack of content, ugly visuals, and pompous attitude from the games developers.
Yet I still kept playing and I like you couldn't figure out why.
It got to the point where I'd sit inside all day on a nice summer day and just grind that game to unlock REQ packs (that games version of getting weapons and armor). I hated most if it but I kept playing, coming back even when I turned my Xbox on knowing I'd hate it and could be doing something better.
One day I was so angry and having a bad day in my personal life. An overcompetetive MLG wannabe came around a corner and used the same poorly designed exploit to kill me for an entire match clearly lacking any other skill in the game.
I raged and threw my controller, kicked my desk over and over and over again and screamed.
I finally turned the Xbox off and I realized "what am I doing with my life? I have all these personal problems yet I don't solve them, I don't do anything to help myself. I just play this game I can't stand for...what?"
And that's when I put Halo 5 down. I returned to the game 3 months later and once I had taken a break the haze was gone. I realized just how manipulative it was in its design. I got a job, started excersizing again, ate healthier, and stopped raging.
I met a girl a few months later who would eventually become my wife.
So please consider taking a break from it. I mean this in a nice way just caring for a fellow gamer.
@@BrokenCircle1damn glad i skipped halo 5
How don't you all already know this. This is obviously a problem.
What the heck did Microtrans-Activision do to them!?!?
@KaneLivesInDeath I think it wasn't just that I think there were some rotten people in Bungie even during the good ol days.
Remember Frank O Connor was Bungie.
I think some of these people just lived long enough to see themselves become the villains.
@@BrokenCircle1 I'm pretty sure being sold to the worst AAA game company in history didn't help...
Too many companies get bought out and turn to crap years later because EA or Microtrans-Activision wanted more money.
Blizzard Entertainment got pretty much all it's staff replaced and now they make games that take *literal centuries* to unlock all of the content if you don't want to buy it...
Live service games are VERY rarely ever something I am willing to support and spend my time in. I play FF14 and PoE and that's it. In theory, in a perfect world... live service sounds amazing right? You get to actively engage with developers to some degree or give feedback and you get consistent big content updates to the game you love. How most of them play out though is 2, 3, 5, 20x over priced trash put into a cash shop and the content that gets added is rarely ever worth it. I just don't bother with them. A lot of them end up being borderline or straight up P2W as well. I knew when Halo Infinite was announced as a live service game that it would be a nightmare and it was. Live service in theory is a great concept but the reality is corporate greed and passionless assholes turn it from a potentially amazing co-beneficial relationship to "how can we best milk our consumer base (not our player-base, key difference) while putting out as much low effort content as possible all with the excuse of "it is a live service game, and we're just getting started!"" blah blah blah.
Pretty much sums it up
Bungie might be owned by Sony but it still feels like Activision is pulling the strings. I dont think people realize just how scummy Bungie has become over the years. Fans will white knight for them with memories of 3 and Reach playing in their heads but the sad reality is that modern Bungie is a *very* different company from the one that put out Halo
Better for developers? At first, sure! But you have to consider how many hands that code has been passed to, often times on a time crunch, leading to hard to read code that isn’t very efficient which only makes everything ten times harder. This will only become more of a problem for a live service the longer it’s updated regularly.
Good for the player? Whether you’re paying for the game, or paying for virtual items in a game, you’re investing more money in smaller increments over time. If you aren’t especially susceptible to those downright manipulative tactics we’d expect from the god damn lotto, then your game is gimped, with customization left as nothing more than a distant memory. And remember, those cosmetics you aren’t enjoying will ALWAYS take precedent over new gameplay elements. And all of this is assuming the game is free to play, in Destiny 2’s case I know damn well you were paying 10 - 20 bucks per expansion, to get the value Halo 3 had… let’s say 10 levels I think? You’d be spending about 80 - 100 bucks in Destiny 2!
Or you sometimes see situations like Halo Infinite, where the game is technically free in certain areas (like the multiplayer) with a full priced $60 campaign normally come to expect for both SP and MP, while still being treated as second class citizens in the multiplayer. To get equivalent content to Halo 3 in Infinite would actually cost you $70 dollars, being generous and only including the cost of the first set of armor, and I’m not even going to mention the monetization of colors.
Man the future of gaming is bleak
Yup. Live service is a raw deal.
I like Destiny… I loved Halo until 343i took over but I like Destiny. It’s got an evolving playing depth or something. Gaming in general has stifled though and Halo is dead
Fair enough to each their own.
I’m just glad indie games and double AA are doing very well and also Helldivers 2 is more fun than halo franchise. Also amazing video.
Thanks for watching. I agree except for the last part. I have my beef with Helldivers. I wont play it due to it being online only live service plus that stunt they tried to pull recently really pissed me off.
Sure they reversed it but only because they realized they couldn't get away with it.
@@BrokenCircle1 uh ok? Well that’s ok I just hope space marine 2 isn’t bad when it comes out. But you know it’s good to move on away from halo and play other games that aren’t live-service, I’m having a lot of fun with risk of rain 2, velum and deep galactic.
I just hope there is a game for you, sometimes we all have to branch out. But thank you for this amazing video ✌️.
I'm 9 minutes in... i think the most people who initially didn't like what is happening in the triple A games market as already checked out from the microtranactions always online games... I know i have.
Now finishing the video, I 100% believe all games should be able to be played offline. As for the live service games I at least want them to be either be playable offline, or the community can make their own servers for the game when the official servers go offline...
I mean I think marvels avengers is a shit game, but at least they made the game playable offline after the servers went down.
I still play the game Evolve that most people dislike. Their is a whole discord server of people who still plays it, and their is still ways to play the game online through community workarounds/modding. It still has an average daily playerbase of 30 players on steam which is pretty good for a game that is in all regards completely dead, and abandoned only being kept alive on life support by a small niche of a community.
Thanks for watching!
UBISOFT RUINED SPLINTERCELL BLACKLIST CONTACT BY NOT INCLUDING LAN
10,000 hours is 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 4 years.
Yup and alot of the time it's the unemployed manbabies that eat the live service games up and they get very VERY upset when you call them out on it hahaha.
30 years of development, good god. I can’t imagine a halo game taking 30 years of development. Halo infinite had a development of six years which is the longest that a halo game has ever been in development and that we have had to wait for in between games. Those first few years of those six years of the development of halo infinite, there wasn’t that much information on halo infinite. I believe we didn’t get our first long of halo infinite until I think 2018 or 2019 with that trailer at e3. I’m getting tired of live service games. We saw what happened to suicide squad to kill the justice league, halo infinite, and other live service games like them. Don’t you like it when a game that came out in December of 2021 like halo infinite had less content when it came with no split screen, no replay missions in the campaign, no forge, and many other things compared to to halo 3 that came out in 2007 and halo reach that came out in 2010 that had more content when those games released than halo infinite’s release. Since 343 has had halo, it’s been nothing but bad after bad for them after them took over from bungie. Halo 4 was decent but had even more call of duty mechanics then in halo reach did. halo 5 had no campaign split screen and the trailers for halo 5 for the campaign were no like what happened in the game. Halo 5 also had micro transactions as well in the game, I think the first for a halo game. halo mcc was broken at launch and wasn’t fixed for years after halo 5 was released in 2015. And we saw what happened was halo infinite and its content including spilt screen, forge, replay missions, and more and its seasonal updates that they eventually dropped for the game. Even halo ce anniversary had some problems with the fans on the art style of the game with some of the characters models and levels to the original halo ce that came out in 2001. I myself is somewhat mixed when it comes to the art style of halo ce anniversary, for the levels and the character models in the game. Some I liked and others I didn’t like. I’m somewhat worried what halo 7 will bring and be in terms of both the multiplayer and the campaign. And unfortunately bungie are no what they used to be right now from when they made halo ce to halo reach and then left halo.
#NoJoe
I agree with pretty much everything you said. A big problem are children that don't know any better and still buy these products. Another problem are some of the "fans." And by fans, I mean man children that defend these scumbag companies no matter what. Big Halo CZcamsrs will say Halo is "fine" no matter what because they make big money from CZcams. I still enjoy Halo for some of the mods people make, but other than that its being worked on by people that hate the fans.