Chloé’s Destruction & the other plot holes Derision created 🐝 Miraculous Ladybug Season 5 🐞
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2024
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Hi, besties! 💖 In today’s video, we’re going to be discussing Chloé and some plot holes Derision created! (✿◠‿◠) I’d love to know what you think! (as long as you stay respectful~)
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The reason I like Chloe in the earlier seasons is that she actually suffers consequences for her actions and they slowly trigger a change that leads her to improve herself (basically slow burn character development) and she evolves to the point where Ladybug is actually willing to trust her with the bee miraculous despite Queen Bee's disastrous debut. And then Astruc sabotaged his own show because of his irrational hatred of a fictional teenager and riddled the canon with plot holes for the sake of character assassination because he couldn't stand that Chloe actually had fans who were dedicated to her character arc.
exactly
I don't mind her not getting a redemption, but if they want to make her a villain they should at least make her a good one. I roll my eyes everytime she's on screen.
Yeah me too. It just plays as Thomas not liking her rn and is trying whatever to make us all hate her too. At least make her villainy credible
@@hazeclarke exactly. She's just pathetic now.
I miss season 2 to 3 Chloe
She was my favorite
I think she's not smart enough to be a good villain
I definitely would’ve liked the episode more if it wasn’t so obviously an excuse from the writers talking to the audience to justify their choices. If Chloe really was such a horrible bully, why would Marinette ever trust her with a miraculous?? And like you said, Marinette’s trauma here seems to be an excuse for her obsessive stalker behavior. It just feels so out of the blue. It actually could’ve been an interesting route, but her behavior towards Adrien is obsession, not distrust. They have a very bad record of planning ahead. Very… ugh.
oh gosh definitely an excuse to justify what they're doing. and yes, mari would never trust her with anything, let alone a miraculous
What happened in derision isn't really an excuse for Marinette's behaviour in my opinion and not out of the blue like you described. I think it was fairly hinted the way Marinette feels about Chloe without em telling us the reason,
Her love for Adrien didn't start as obsessive, as in Origins if you remember she literally couldn't stand him because he's friends with Chloe,
And then you got proof in Glaciator 2 with Marinette's declaration to CN about Adrien she says that she misjudged him and that she got to know that he's nice or something aling those lines
You can tell it’s just the writers trying to justify not giving her a redemption after they set it up themselves -_-
no . this is reason
@@holaamigos8144
It's definitely a lazy retcon from the writers to justify their bad writing.
I agree with you 100%, there was no need to make Chloe one of the reasons why Marinette use to stalk Adrien when it was clear since season one that those tendencies were suppose to be apart of her personality and I'm tired of them trying to make Chloe just as bad as another teenage girl who has most of Paris treating like a queen due to her lies and a father who terrorizes and manipulates people just to get his wife back, along with psychologically abusing his own son!
agreed! it being a weird personality quirk is a better explanation
I love Marinette
I know Thomas Astruc has the right to hate Chloé. But in derision. Wow. He really made Chloé seem as an unredeemable monster out of nowhere. Sure she did bad things. She's a teenager after all. But what she did to Marinette in the past.
Where did that come from? Sure it's totally something Chloé would do. But yet not. Thomas just did this because we all want atleast one redeemed villain.
Speaking of that. So for him Gabriel is redeemable. An adult who's willing to akumatize his son when he finds out his identity, to get magical jewelry to create a universe in his image and sacrifice someone random to get his comatosed/dead wife back. And who's also a terrorist.
But a teenage girl who just want to feel important and loved because she doesn't have almost any friends and her mom left. She's not redeemable?
Can someone please explain how this makes sense.
There's characters that we love to hate. Like Azula from avatar. She's a character that is evil and we all like her for it. But Chloé is a character we hate to hate.
Well yeah Gabriel atleast has an excuse. Akumatizing his son isn’t wrong when he’s trying his hardest to bring back his dead wife so both Gabriel AND Adrien are happy.
You’d rather Adrien find out Nathalie and Gabriel die and adriens finds out HE was the one who caused Gabriel’s death? No. Let gabe do what he has to.
like he totally can hate her! but he's trying to get everyone else to hate her too and it's just bizarre. and as you say, where did that come from? and why did chloe stop such cruel behaviour
and it doesn't make sense. at all
@@usernotfound_____yet love is a powerful thing, you would do the same. Also yeah he made a mistake but it’s too late now, it’s either he wins or Adrien is left with nothing.
Why get over grief when you have everything in your hand to be able to bring her back? I wouldn’t waste that oppurtunity either
@@parnellomelloI'm sorry but no, I wouldn't do the same, Gabriel is just being selfish
He's just as shitty of a writer as Rebecca Sugar, but at least Rebecca Sugar was subtle in her hate for Rose Quartz/Pink Diamond.
TLDW: Thomas Astruc sucks at writing trauma, bullying, villains, and coherent timelines.
And also romance!
I’m not on twitter anymore but I heard people saying that Astuc compares Chloe being a mean person to… umm… people who do bad things that can ruin other people’s lives (I’m not going to say the word) but I think there’s a difference between disliking a character and comparing a mean character to a real life criminal
Lol yeah she’s not great bht she’s not a criminal
A lot of people, when they talk about Chloe, ask whether she "deserves" or "doesn't deserve" redemption, and I'm like... She's literally a _fictional character;_ she doesn't get a say in what she does or says, not a say in whether she's good or bad. None of the characters do. Everything that happens is decided by the one(s) writing them. So, I always found this question ridiculous. It shouldn't be about whether a character "deserves" redemption or not, the real question should be: would that "redemption" make for a more *interesting* narrative? And in my own humble opinion, the answer is *yes.*
Right now, the way they're headed with Chloe's character, it isn't anything interesting or unique. And I don't have to say this myself, just look at the fandom - most of them are tired of this and are just done with seeing Chloe on screen. And no, not because she does a great job at being a bad guy (because she doesn't), but because they simply don't find her intriguing anymore. Heck, not even the characters _in the show_ are threatened by her presence anymore. So, as a villain, she fails miserably. And even if this is what the writers intended in Seasons 4 and 5, that doesn't mean it's any good. It's just petty.
Tell me. Genuinely, without any bias. What would be more interesting?
A. An incompetent brat who does basically _nothing_ and fails to simply be threatening? Someone who doesn't even have a proper reason for why they specifically target the protagonist to bully instead of anyone else at school who's literally the same class as her. She's simply that, a classist with no real, deeper characterisation.
B. OR! A product of bad parenting who grew up in a toxic environment, suddenly finds out that her beliefs, her life, everything she used to think was right was actually wrong all along. Surrounded by people who are blinded by their wealth and power, she doesn't know what to believe. What's right and what's wrong anymore? Is the way she has been living her life this entire time what's right, or is it wrong? And even if she wanted to break free, how can she do it without losing her position in this toxic reality where the meanest and cruellest stomp on those who are underneath them? Her classmates believe she's beyond change, she can't trust them to help her in this. And she can't trust her mother either, because she's the cause of all this to begin with. Is there any hope left for her at all? Or is she just as irredeemable as everyone thinks she is?
I could've phrased this better, but that's the thing with me, I just fail to get my thoughts out properly. Either way, you tell me what you think.
As for the video itself, this is _exactly_ how I feel about Derision, so thank you, Haze, for making this video. I couldn't have worded it better myself.
I think that when they say wether the redemption is deserved, they more so mean wether it would make sense from what we know about the character because another thing fictional stories should be is realistic in at the very least its characters so that they feel like real people instead of a fictional character.
@@dabest8777 Maybe. Although, it felt to me like they were taking the word "deserve" in a literal sense. But if it's like you say, then I honestly am not sure this works either.
A character can be redeemed with the right set of events in the story, but that same character could be made an even worse person with a different set of events.
Either way, thanks for explaining. I do, however, still think that the way they're going with her character isn't the best move.
@@usernotfound_____yet We did often agree with each other before, so I'm not surprised!
@@yourlocalchloesimp yeah, I agree. I just wanted to maybe clarify. I feel like Chloe either could’ve been a good Anti-Hero or a good villain but now she’s just so unbelievably pathetic that it’s ridiculous, utterly ridiculous.
@@dabest8777 Exactly!
I don't mind her being a villain, as long as she can be a competent one who spices up the story. But right now, she's neither a good villain, nor an anti-hero, nor will she be redeemed by the looks of it.
I mean they could have had Chloe do something mean as a petty bullying joke but things got out of hand and boom Marinnete has trauma and Adrienne saves Marinnete from almost drowning and Kim could confess that Chloe told him, and the confrontation happens with Adrien and Chloe and Aliya could be in Chloe's house and be like "how dare you hurt Marinnete". Soqualine could be a "I always wanted to be a hero but..." and be there with aliya. Kim still gets accumatised. Just because you hate a character doesn't mean you get to assassinate a character and risk everything.
Thomas Astruc rn: Shoot! She's onto us.
😂😂😂😂
I know Chloe was suppose to be the mean girl, but what she did in Derision was very nasty than what I'm used to see her do in the show.
it was very out of character for sure
Abusers never get redeemed. Chloe could’ve committed murder and neither parent would scold her. That’s just how toxic that family is to each other, but towards everyone around them.
Until Zoe came into the picture and made Mayor Andre come to his senses. 10/10 for Zoe’s part and 8/10 for common sense for Andre; divorcing Audrey and disowning Chloe.
She became the embodiment of Satan 💀
@@annlouiserainey4888 So common sense is now raising your child terribly and then throwing her away because she didn't became the easy child? ...OK.
Abusers may never get redeemed, but children can change. Especially children made this way by their parents and environment.
I feel like they were aiming to assassinate chloe once and for all but that bullet ricocheted off Kim and Marinette first before finally killing off Chloe.
I still love Marinette but I slightly agree with people who say that this trauma should've been foreshadowed in earlier seasons,
Maybe in a similar way to the sentimonster theory (no matter how many seasons back you go that theory is still pretty solid, starting with adrien's season one feather allergy)
Well then why dies Adrien have that allergy but Félix doesn't?
@@Jellygirl313 Because they're not the same person 💀
tbf we haven't seen if felix has one or not yet
@@hazeclarke Well considering that he has Duusu and isn't sneezing up a storm, I'd say Felix doesn't have the same feather allergy as Adrien.
@@Jellygirl313 I think it was never really supposed to make much sense from the lore standpoint, but just to correlate Adrien with feathers in a way. At the point where Felix was introduced we already knew about Peacock miraculous, feathers and sentimonsters.
I agree with this completely. I thought it was weird for Marinette to not be more scared than how she was, not see Socqueline for literally ages and Adrien not being told about any of this.
Although, I'd argue that since the first episode of the show came out more than 7 years ago now, they probably didn't think they were going to turn Chloe into this super horrible person.
I'm really disappointed in this episode as well because it basically shows that there will basically be no redemption for Chloe which is sad because she's a teenage girl!
They're giving Nathalie a redemption and they'd probably still try and give Gabriel a redemption even after all of the horrible things he's done but they refuse to believe a 13-14 year old girl can change? I just don't get it! 😡 Sorry about the rant 😅
that is true, but if doing this to chloe is going to open loads of plotholes because it wasn't planned from the start, then they shouldn't have done it at all
Exactly my thoughts
I think you hit it on the head, the pathological hatred is really affecting the show. Derision turns Tom&Sabine into oblivious parents(3years of bullying so bad Marinette makes up obviously fake excuses to stay home) the school is even more of a joke, everything is warped to make this outcome happen with a single minded focus.
We also get collateral, Like the Rose&Mylene exchange which is clearly The writer talking to the audience and which completely discounts any accounting for the difference in the remaining parent in a single parent household. André is absolute garbage who teaches Chloé to abuse power. I am fairly certain Mylène dad didn't do that. 😂
Seriously though, that throw away line is going to hit some young viewer and let them know 'if tou react badly to your parent leaving, it's because you are bad' how messed up is that?
And all this just to force the 'truth' that the writing room seems hell bent on.
omg tom and sabine are amazing parents but they're just so stupid some of the time and i don't get it?
but oh gosh like i totally agree with mylene, a parent leaving doesn't mean you get to act like that, but because chloe never deals with that, it spreads the message that you have to be like that if your parents are divorced
So I'm not the only one who was annoyed by what Mylene said? Like yes getting abused by your parents isn't an excuse for acting horrible but people respond to trauma in different ways!!!
@@summerheart9834Yeah. It’s a sliver of the “perfect victim mentality”. Where people expect to handle abuse in a favorable way 100% if the time and if you don’t, you aren’t worth helping/sympathizing with.
I 100% agree with you. They ruined Chloe's character. I'm not saying she should get a redemption arc so that she'll be "fixed". Because by ruining Chloe's character it affected other characters especially Marinette.
Because Chloe became an antagonist again at the end of s4. Lila didn't didn't get to shine which she should have been since her big antagonist moment was rising and suddenly she was on the low for no reason.
This ruin was also showed with Adrien actually being a Sentimonster. Him being was a senti was hinted on s4. It was out of the blue.
There are so many plot holes and misaligned charater build. I still watch this show because I want to know how the story will go even if the storyboard is such a mess.
hmmm i do disagree with the senti stuff you've said here. it's been hinted at since s1
@@hazeclarke wait really? it was so hidden. So it was hinted at s1? Well they did at a terrible job at it bruh. Like it's the same with Lila.
Lila was getting big but suddenly didn't get screen time and if she did get a screen time when was just a background character that had no lines and it took a whole season for her to reappear again lol
Omg sorry looks like there some mistypo causing misinformation with my 1st comment hehe. I think it can still be understood
The end of sesason 3 is "Marinette is so jealous, that makes bad choices and sells master Fu to Hawkmoth".
One of my problems with this is the deescalation, why the bullying got tamer over time? usually that only happens when you face your bully or you get away for a while, Chloe had that school on the palm of her hand, while you can argue that winter break could cause a small deescalation in the agression, it will ramp up once it get going and I don't think Alya could do enough chipping to lower it without getting in a full fight against Chloe
it's definitely odd how she was so cruel in the past and toned it down for seemingly no reason
I've spent years explaining people struggling with the concept of "tone" and "charicature" that Marinette's behaviour around Adrien wasn't supposed to be read as a realistic depiction of a disturbed teenage stalker, but as a comedic exaggaration of a schoolgirl in love.
Well, I guess they were right all along, because "Derision" makes it clear that ACTUALLY we were meant to take it seriously, and every person who ever laughed at it was unconsciously mocking a traumatised child for symptoms over which she has no control.
In short: Thank you for making this video. This episode doesn't just feel needlessly petty, but this new context changes every previous episode wherein Marinette interacts with Adrien, Chloé or Kim. You can't go back and laugh at things which where previously funny, because this backstory makes them tragic. I really, really don't think that's what the writers were going for with this, but if we're meant to believe that this all happened in the same universe, then that is the only way to read it.
(Also, "Animaestro" is just so, so ugly in light of this brand new information. why would Marinette EVER help Chloé go after Kagami like she's gone after herself?)
ah yeah all this time i've taken it as very strange comedic relief, but it does certianly frame mari's behaviour differently, like in animaestro like you said! it is odd she'd help
Even without exaggeration, Mari is also 13-14 over the course of the show and a lot of kids that age do act weird and crazy when they have crushes. I certainly know I did! Personally I always felt a little bit of cringe watching her do the things she does in the show but I never thought she was some insane criminal for it.
@@wildfireamv her jealousy is a problem, so big that Cloe is akumatized and helped Hawmoth after he akumatized her parents, because Marinette was so jealous that she wanted to keep Kagami and Adrien apart.
Exactly, thank you! Honestly, Derision feels like a puzzle piece. It’s trying to fit into the narrative the writers had created, but it doesn’t fit at all. But instead of trying to adjust it or fix it or place it somewhere else in general, they decide to squeeze it in not caring that it’ll ruin the bigger picture.
Obviously, I see what Chloé did in Derision was terrible and it shouldn’t be excused at all, but it is hard to believe them when you think about the previous character interactions (especially with Marinette, Chloé, and Kim). Plus, as you said, Chloé’s bullying was more petty than traumatic, and it actually leaves another plot hole: if Chloé has always been that extreme, what made her tone down? She got away with what she did, and the only person in her way of bullying Marinette was gone (both by suspension and graduation), so she should be going all out on Marinette. Heck, when Marinette started standing up to her, wouldn’t Chloé want to try to break Marinette’s newfound confidence down? Wouldn’t she try to make sure Alya wasn’t friends with Marinette, or that Marinette “knew her place?” So yeah, I completely agree this leaves so many questions unanswered. Sure, if this happened in the season, maybe it could be believable because it would fit the narrative of Chloé getting worse overtime, but they are trying to paint that Chloé has always been this horrible.
Plus with Socqueline, if she was such an impact on Marinette’s life, why didn’t Marinette have at least a picture of Socqueline? But then again, it didn’t seem like Marinette tried to contact her a lot, unless it happened off-screen (which is worse).
There is definitely a lot of issues with Derision, and that just makes it harder to actually accept it as part of the show with how much inconsistencies it leaves.
@Miraculous, Bridgett Williams I have to disagree on that because Chloé didn’t seem to try to deny what she did before and even when Adrien calls her out on her behavior, she continues anyway.
ruining the bigger picture is definitely a great way to put it! they've tried to shove this in to push their own agenda even though it opens up more plot holes. and yes, while it is horrible, it's not in character. exactly, what made her stop being as cruel? because adrien was at school? because her mum came back to France?
Yeah...this episode would have been better if it had been planned and presented throughout the other seasons. I've heard people talking about season 3 and it would definitely be a good time to start bringing the concept of this episode, not all at once but make it more obvious throughout the episodes that Marinete was evolving and there was something we didn't know yet.
Season 3 would be a great place!
I feel like they always had in mind about how severe Marinette's bullying was, they maybe just didn't expect to need an special episode to explain it. But since Marinette got so much hate because of her "stalking", they wrote it to show the audience why she acts like that.
if that's the case, there really should have been more hints about it
Bullying has always played into a bullied individual’s psychology and behavior. So it make sense to forgive Marionette’s following Adrien behavior. Trauma isn’t the only reason why people do things that are out of the ordinary. If Marionette and Chloe would have gone to thereapy, they would have (or Marionette) forgiven Chloe, but would have asked to transfer into a different class. But Chloe would treated her and her forgiveness as a joke for her entertainment.
Chloe has no redemption thanks to her psychological point of view. She shouldn’t have found the Bee Miraculous; one good deed doesn’t redeem someone whose actions and intentions were intend to harm others. A mean character who wants redemption are forgiven and make amends; Chloe is the exception in this show
It's a weak retcon to try and justify the bad writing of marinette by the writers. It doesn't even make any sense within the time line of the series.
Something tells me things are only gonna get worse as we approach the finale of the season
Honestly, derision was so disgusting.
Chloe has been shown to be self centered, petty and entitled, but this episode...she crosses a moral event horizon here.
Chloe has never put in the energy required to pull such an insane trick on someone.
ANOTHER THING I DONT UNDERSTAND IS HOW KIM DIDN'T CONNECT WHAT HE DID TO MARINETTE TO WHAT CHLOE DID TO HIM IN THE EPISODE DARK CUPID??????????????????????????????
THERE'S SO MUCH HERE THAT MAKES NO SENSE? i don't even know if i have the energy to list out all the things wrong with this episode and all of season 5
exactly! it's so out of character for her! like she's not a lovely person but i don't believe she'd do this
8:08
Nino wasn't there either. He would've deffo said something to Adrien if he knew.
Exactly!
So well said, Haze. I feel like Miraculous constantly creates this feeling of wasted potential. If they'd laid the groundwork for this in earlier seasons, this could've been so powerful. Maybe they could've had Lila start to truly corrupt Chloe sooner after Lila's introduction, and had the spider event or something equally bad happen because of her influence (setting aside Kim/Ondine continuity etc. lol I know that throws that off; we'll worry about that later [like true Miraculous writers do]). It would've made a lot more sense because it goes along with Lila's threats to ruin Marinette's life, and this way Lila wouldn't have inexplicably vanished for such a long period of the show. More importantly, it would've provided a REASON for the halting of Chloe's redemption arc (beyond the shoddy "reason" given in the Season 3 finale). Losing that redemption arc still would've been a shame and disappointment for us, but at least it would've made sense. It would even help facilitate what I hope is Sabrina's heel-turn. It feels like she is above Lila's behavior/Chloe sinking to Lila's level, but if that's the case, she should've dumped Chloe after the spiders. The spiders are a very "Lila" thing to do.
But they couldn't do any of this, because the concept didn't exist yet, because this was all a giant retcon. Furthermore, it wouldn't explain Marinette's stalking, which was half the reason for writing this episode. I understand writers can't plan for absolutely everything in what is actually a complex show. But so much of this complexity ends of feeling contrived when the writers feel like they can just shoehorn things in and change the rules, at the drop of a hat. Or, changing the continuity of characters to suit whatever narrative they currently favor.
oooo lila manipulating her into doing this would have been amazing! but yes, that would make more sense as the explanation for her lost redemption
i understand they can't plan everything, but in the case where a single episode is going to retcon so much, then they shouldn't do it
If Astruc didn't want to redeem Chloé to become a hero, fine ! Not all of us are selfless enough after all. But don't portray her as the devil's spawn ! She's a human being. He could have at least made Chloé an anti-hero or something, with her own vision of justice.
In fact, I don't understand why we don't have any anti-heroes in this universe (like, she could be the FIRST person in history to take full control over her own Akuma, using it to amplify the Bee Miraculous but refusing to engage in any criminal activities, since Hawkmoth isn't there to amplify her worst thoughts). One of their points is to show that while heroes have the right idea, that doesn't mean it's perfect.
Astruc's vision of justice and law is...bizarre, to say the least.
chloe as an anti-hero would have been awesome! like felix was good as one but he seems to be more of a hero now
@@hazeclarke do you think we defend Chloé too much ? I do maintain that as the team leader and old childhood friend, Marinnette and Adrien respectively had the responsibility of having done more, imposed themselves (I refuse to aknowledge the existance of that flashback, because it clearly was created specifically for this season alone).
But...she did join a terrorrist. Although, his villains never really murdered anyone. So I guess that's why she saw nothing wrong in negotiating with him ? She thought it would be simply a cry for attention ? I mean, even in real life we have cases of people who create some sort of bond with people like Hawkmoth. And children will usually throw tauntrums that can be quite destructive. Imagine what one would do with power.
I just don't want to be one of those people who believes every single villain has to be redeemed. I'm not naive. I know there are villains who had it coming, no matter their reasons. What do you think ?
This episode made it hard to still like Kim and still believe he deserved a miraculous.
Definitely!
I do agree with everything you said. I do agree about what you said about Socqueline and Alya, but Socqueline was a year older than her. So I get that they had to have Alya as a best friend for Marinette in her class. But still, she should've been shown at least in season 4.
But I guess we have new characters every season, by the looks of it. Season 2: Luka, Marc, Audrey, Wayhem, Ondine, Nora, Etta and Ella, Kagami. Season 3: Felix, Tomoe, Bunnix, Claudie, Chris Marianne.
Season 4: Zoe, Su Han. Season 5: Socqueline.
There were too many characters introduced in the earlier seasons so I think they wanted to save it for later seasons such as this one.
Great video :D
socqueline easily could have been made as staying in the same year from the start, or even if they kept her as older, she still could have been a presence in mari's life
@@hazeclarke I know but like I said, I thin they did this because they were introducing a lot of characters in the earlier seasons.
Idk they should've introduced Socqueline in s3 imo.
They should've introduced Socqueline in S4 and given her the bee miraculous instead of of Zoe. Zoe is a pointless character and her only purpose was to make Chloe look bad
Bestie...this show is filled with plot holes...im not really sure that origins happens just after a few months though, because
the flashbacks in derision are supposedly from 8th grade but remember in S1 in the episode THE PHAROAH...alya mentioned that the textbook that ladybug dropped was from 10th grade which they are in👀
The timeline is absolutely horrendous in this show!
Also, i think Marinette could have told about her bullying in Sole crusher to everyone since Zoe was telling how she got bullied and had roaches in her locker too on the boat...idk
When i heard that Mylene's mum also left her too, i was soo shocked/sad but i didnt see anyone talking 'bout it...did they already mention it before in the show ' - ' i knew she didn't have a mother around but the fact that her mum left her tooo, aahh i luv Mylene
• Why wasnt she panicking around luka??
• why doesn't she panic around Cat Noir if she had a crush on him?
• we didn't see any sort of panic attacks in cat blanc or ephemeral...I'm pretty sure that just because she knew cat was adrien it wouldn't REMOVE her anxiety...right??
But luv the vid bestie...missed u soo much❤
Also hope u enjoyed ur trip haziepie✨️ but i doubt that with all the spoilers😂
oh i think alya saying that is a mistake rather than a plot hole XD but yes! zoe talking about it would make sense for mari to talk about it too! and yep, no panicking around cat noir. it doesn't make sense
i had an awesome trip! Ahmed was kind enough to edit for me so i only had to record and upload
@@hazeclarke Mylene's comment is so damned OOC too, considering her comment in Despair Bear where she was the one who said "Maybe Chloe is nice really deep down inside." (paraphrased).
Actually that line from Pharaoh was a mistranslation, during season 1 the dubbing team placed the cast in high school as in actually their in the French equivalent of middle school which goes 6th - 9th grade. These mistakes get cleared up after said season
Thomas did it, Chloe's character is beyond any redemption now.
What was the purpose of her being nice in Season 2 and 3?
Why would Marinette trust Chloe with anything in Season 2 when she had faced such trauma.
She went from being a self centered girl to a total bully.
apparently to show some people can't be redeemed? idk
@@hazeclarke Yep, and that just makes me sad.
So the season 3 finale and chloe character assassination almost made me stop watching the series. I kept basically waited until season 4 was finished to actually watching season 4. I am glad that I kept watching the series.
They really should have hinted at derision. The l characters that I despise the most is gabriel and Lila to me chole is being manipulated by lila. But after derision she can't be redeemed.
Same here I almost stopped watching too 4-5 has been really good so far in several other ways
chloe was actually good.....until season 3. then its like they had a seizure and tried to write her character progression mid-seizure
Great video, bestie. I have the same feelings about this episode, which I already wrote you in my comment under your Derision commentary. I can only add that Thomas hatered towards Chloe destroys not only writting in the show, but also fandom in general. Each fight in MLB fandom starts or ends with Chloe. Sure, Chloe stans can be really aggressive, but I cannot stop thinking that they wouldn't be like this, if main anti-Chloe figther, Thomas Astruc himself, wasn't so aggressive towards them on the first place, calling them abusers or apologists for just liking Chloe or even politely commenting on his bad writing decisions. His behavior makes this fandom so rotten. This is because of him Zoe was so poorly received. He tells us that people shouldn't like Chloe, because she is a bully, while he acts like a bully himself. He forgets how influential he is as creator of the show for CHILDREN. These little kids, who watches and loves Miraculous, really look up to him and copy his behavior, because he is an authority for them.
As you said, he doesn't need to like Chloe. But at least, he should have a respect towards people who like her for who she is, redeemed or not. Some people just like villains and mean characters in media, and it doesn't mean that they are terrible people. They just like this particular fictional character. Thomas wants to force us to like or dislike some characters, but we're not a puppets. Marinette looses on it too. Thomas is shouting : "you MUST love my baby girl!", but this only makes people angry and judgemental towards Marinette, who doesn't deserve hate she got.
oh gosh the infighting is awful, i hate it, and you're right, thomas certainly doesn't help. i feel he is to blame for at least a portion of the toxicity present. but yes, you're right! in my novel, there's a character who i despise, but some of my friends love her! i must confess i don't get it, but i'm like okay then!
Reading your comment it sums it up for me.
Chloe is a bully and Gabriel is a terrorist but some how Gabriel can be redeemed but Chloe can't.
Somebody make it make sense.
I totally agree with you; derision was not planned from the beginning of the series, and I wish it was.
And I agree with your repression theory; it really is the only explanation for them not hinting at this traumatizing situation during the whole series. Repression is horrible because, at some point, it will resurface. A cautionary tale: I tried to do this after my fiancee had to move away, and it was disastrous for my health. I ended up having blackout spells and spending a lot of time at the hospital. I tried to forget the pain and move on because his leaving was completely understandable and not at all about us. He had to go, and I had to stay... the only thing that broke our hearts was the simple fact; it was over. The future we envisioned together was never going to happen, and it was hard to move on. But it wasn't until I stopped pretending that I was ok and that nothing happened that I started to heal. As painful as something may be, we have to deal with it to move on; there's no sidestepping. Glad you covered this, Haze! Always looking out for your community. Thank you, Bestie! ❤
it's no problem bestie 💖 i hope you're doing much better now 🥰
@@hazeclarke I am, thank you 😊 That was many years ago, and I have a great life now that makes me very happy. I ended up marrying my best friend years later. He had helped me through all that mess, which made me see him in a different light and how much he loved me. We have four little ones now ☺️ Things happen for a reason; God had a plan all along. Even when it hurts, He knows what's best for us.
I'm glad to see some sane people left in this fandom.
It's not a victim's job to redeem the bully, it's true. Unless you happen to be a team leader, and the bully was made part of the team by your hand no less.
Also, people really think everyone is 100% selfless ? No. We're all selfish at some capacity. She entered the super-hero thing for selfish reasons, it's a fact, but we ALL expect some sort of reward out of practicing good (even if unconciously), Chloé was just more open about it. The thing is, after a while, and some support from others, what started out selfish can start feeling right to us. And when it starts feeling right, rewards take less and less priority. Villain, hero, bad seed, imperfect seed... She's a human, not a sub-human. She can be both good or bad, and that's ok, as long as you don't step on others freedom. Astruc might understand everyone has flaws, but he doesn't seem to be very open to tolerate the realistic ones, so he amplifies them to exaggerated proportions so we'll judge who we want him to judge, which wouldn't be a problem, if he understood that Chloé isn't the only guilty one for her fall. There was a complexity of unaddressed reasons.
As for the truly despicable one... We're still supposed to root for Gabriel's redemption and Natalie's, even though their crimes started outright villains and only got worse since then, with Natalie being Gabriel's Boustier.
completely agree! especially rn after the finale. like i am very confused why the team were okay with redeeming a child abuser and not a child who behaves the way she has due to abuse. honestly gabriel's redemption disgusts me
Yeah, I really wished they foreshadowed this but oh well
Pardon a second comment, a thought literally just struck me while some friends and I were discussing this episode. Throw everything else aside, Derision makes the single most iconic moment in ML... make no sense.
Tell me that the Marinette who two months prior had been given a gift of spiders from Kim, would have taken *anything* from a friend of Chloé's, even an umbrella.
Yeah. I'll keep the Umbrella scene and throw Derision in the bin, thank you.
Omg exactly! It could have been a prank like that. Especially since her opinion of him in that epsiode was horrible
I think that they should have pushed for the repression of Marinette's trauma more. Like the specific circumstance of a real date in that place and that was necesarry to unlock it, almost completely unavailable to her before. As you said, that's the only good solution and I'm surprised they didn't.
Finished watching and had a second thought. It doesn't fix all the plotholes,even then.
yeah while i think repression. isimportant to talk about and not everything will trigger it, it doesn;t make everything better, like how chloe stops being so horrible for this current school year
I believe the Trauma Marinette had from that time wasn't the bullying. She was used to it, as horrible as it was. But it was part of her everyday life. I think it was more that someone she likes and thinks of as a nice person and someone she's crushing on did something to humiliate her because he's friends with Chloe. She obviously didn't have the closest relationship to Kim or any of her classmates and went with what she saw. But that turned out to be a bad idea. So the Trauma isn't the bullying. It's that she can't trust her own judgement of character,in her mind and that she has to be more careful about who she let's into her heart. That's why I think she was fine in the end because while what happened was bad, it wasn't what stood out to her.
partially agree, she was traumatised by her how her own actions got her there, but she should also hold trauma associated with thise people and places. Mari didn't intrinsically do anything (as far as we're aware) to make chloe or kim do that to her
Or maybe Astruc wanted to emphasize how much of a moron Marinette is.
can we please give the monkey miraculous to Socqueline instead of Kim 😭
Omg yesssss
I hope you do a video about gabriel agreste at some point. Because season 1 -3 gabriel is way different from season 4-5. Early gabr did this out of love and he still does but now he does not care about his sons safety. I dont know if it is the cataclysm that is affecting his morality or the use multiple miraculous but he is just crazy now.
I’m planning on it! But I want to wait until this season is over! I’m planning on doing one on Nathalie too!
@@hazeclarke nice, Nathalie changed for the better while gabriel became more delusional and vindictive. Still think his constant loss, the constant unifications, and the cataclysm have permanently affected his mindset.
I agree there is indeed a lot of plot holes after derision had aired BUT I strongly disagree that the whole flashback was out of Chloe's character.
Chloe isn't just a petty bully, she indeed pulled a lot of "pranks" on Marinette to get her in trouble, and the most recent one was with Sabrina being invisible and stealing stuff just to make Marinette look bad and turn everyone against her in adoration.
That was Chloe's idea and definetly wasn't just verbal bullying,
So in my opinion what happened in derision was just another way to bully Marinette, and since she's just 14, she definitely doesn't know the consequences of her action that it actually could have been resulting in Marinette drowning and having a bad ending. To her it was just another prank to pester her.
i agree it was just a prank to her, and what she did in Adoration was awful, but i would still argue it's out of character. the derision flashback happens a month and a half before season 1, yet in S1 or 2 or 3 or 4, Chloe does nothing remotely similar. she isn't very nice, but she does nothing like this. i would argue what happened in adoration was partly due to Lila's influence, and it does seem Lila is the one who comes up with it, and Chloe just goes along with it. for chloe to do something so cruel the previous school year, and then nothing similar for a whole year later at the behest of someone else is *extremely* out of character for her
@@hazeclarke yeah maybe if they pulled out one more event just like in Adoration somewhere along the school year it would've been more plausible
I can't say much for the previous.seasons
But I think there were some hints today derision in the previous season 5 eps
Like in perfection...when alya and marinette had that conversation"there is smth wromg with me but dont know what"
A similar thing in migration when adrien and marientte were talking to luka
"There is smth she cant get out"
I do think it could hv been linked to derision??
And then there are sone other stuff which can count as veryyy subtle hintts
Like in dark cupid when alya and marinette are talking abt chloe pranking kim and alya says " i hope adrien doesnt do that to you" and marinette freaks
Or in puppetter 2 when adrien pranks marinette and i dint remember but she cried a little??
Or in soul crusher when zoe talks abt finding roaches in her locker..the camera zooms to alya and marinette looking at each other?? Which gets me thinking
1) is this a coincidence?
2) does alya know abt this derision thing?
Another thing is that kim and chloe were the only ones marinette didnt voluntarily give a miraculous to
I can get the kim part.maybe she didnt want to go against fu's wishes
But giving the miraculous back to chloe ...uhhhhhh
It had been a while since the derision incident...maybe the stuff abt chloe she heard from adrien ,miss bustier and her other classmates must hv gotten her thinking "maybe chloe can change"
But yes it is a bit odd
But yes even with all this..a few more hints would hv been nice..like maybe marinette hesitating to give kim the miraculous again?
i ’m pretty sure that hint in migration was that she was hiding she was ladybug. And I would argue puppeteer 2 was an incident that would have made most people cry, regardless if another prank had been pulled on them previously
Sole crusher is an interesting one though! Why didn’t mari said ah yeah same thing happened to me?
But yes mari being hesitant to trust Kim would have been great
Can you do in the defense of Marinette part 2
I agree some plot holes are weird and I would like to see even them in more detail. But I also think that they should had written how Chole bullying had an impact to other characters too. I honestly think Adrian wouldn't be happy to see Chloe leaving in Maladictor because even if they told him he still had a strong friendship with Chloe and trying to change her
I Will! And I disagree. I think if they told him he’d completely understand why everyone is so happy
this is literally one of the reasons I don’t wanna rewatch season 5 😭 they portray Chloe like she’s always been some sort of monster, when in season 2 they specifically made episodes like Despair Bear and Malediktator , showing that Chloe CAN be a good person. But then in s5, it’s as if this girl can’t change. Like the writing team has barely changed in the past seasons, so why did they decide to just make Chloe some sort of devil
god i just dont get this show sometimes
I don't mind her not getting a redemption arc but i feel like it should have been better executed like build it up. Like in the time where she feels betrayed by Ladybug maybe have Ladybug stick by the reason she didn’t give Chloe the miraculous for the others or Ladybug recognizing that she fricked up bad. Cause it would acknowledge that even a good person can be unfair. Or show Chloes crualnes early on so not build it up that she might have a redemption. Only to show she was always that way after. Show it first. Either way i still didn't like how they handled Chloes character as a whole.
Especially with how they could have just had Marinette realize the hypocrisy for allowing the others to be heros even though their identities were found out. Maybe she could still keep them being heros just give them different miraculouses.
like broadly, yeah, i don't mind as long as whatever they did they did well but they've done i terribly so far
Adrien doesn't know he's being stalked and no one in the show acts like what Marinette is ever doing is wrong so it is stalking 100% from the perspective of the audience, worst it is stalking that is encourage by the entire class and a lot more besides.
Only Chloe and Kagami see it as such though and both of them don't really see it as more than "a bit weird" I think it is part of the reason Chloe call Marinette a Freak. and she can't comprehend NOT being able to say what she thinks at pretty much all time,. as that girl don't have much of a filter.
But yeah she has a piece of his hair as a trophy I think that says Stalker to me.
8:02 on this point. This class is attached by the hip. They are one big group that do everything together including Chloe. May I present the heroes day picnic. They would know every gruelling detail about each other
exactly!
Honestly, with Chloe, I don't think she needs a redemption arc. I think some people are just bad people and cannot be redeemed. Milan's point about Chloe's mother not being an excuse was spot on. But also, her mother wasn't the most significant issue; it's her father. He is 100% an ENABLER! He doesn't set any boundaries for his daughter, gives her everything she wants, bulldozes over anyone that she does not like or that denies her from what she wants, and lets her walk all over him! OF COURSE she's going to be a horrible person! If any event in her life is to blame, it's her weak-willed pushover of a father. 🤨 It's still not ab excuse for her behavior in ANY form, but it is the root of her bad behavior.
I loved the idea of a Chloe redemption arc dearly but your right, the show could work perfectly well without it, Chloe could be a good villain. The problem is - existing in the story as she does now - she’s sort of unnecessary.
This was really my issue with Lila, why introduce her when you could have just as easily made Chloe begin acting worse till eventually she takes over from hawk moth. I get that they may have wanted a more machiavellian character to become the main antagonist but Chloe’s decent into a more manipulative nasty character would have been more interesting than what ever the hell there currently trying to do. Plus if Lila didn’t exist Chloe as a character and villain would have more agency and I think overall be more compelling.
As it is though, I don’t know man, I’m mostly left wondering what they were even trying to accomplish with Chloe. Why give her redeeming qualities only to act like they didn’t, it would be justifiable if the things that Chloe has experienced and the actions she took permanently affected her character but from episode to episode it more feels like she’s just a useful tool: not a real person with motivations.
@@inkycapzI DEFINITELY agree that Lila is a much better villain than Chloe. Chloe is more of a high school bully with the power of the mayor, but Lila is actually sinister and has the mind of a supervillain. Lila has the brain power to really be a force of destruction whereas Chloe is just a spineless, whiney brat. It would have been nice for Chloe to get a redemption story, but someone on a different thread made a comment that I thought/think is valid, and that is simply that Chloe cannot get brownie points for being a decent person. She shouldn't get praise for going from being a monster to being a regular person. Marinette goes out of her way to help others, both as a regular girl and as Ladybug. SHE is someone that deserves a pat on the back, but Chloe hasn't done anything remotely on the same level. That's why I think a redemption arc would have been nice, but not deserved and definitely not earned. That's why I'm fine with her not being relieved of her title of mean queen.
This was EXACTLY my thoughts
Personally I think she should’ve gotten a redemption arc and the writers should’ve stuck with it
First comment and first view buahahaha . Such great analysis . Keep on the good work haze
Thank you bestie 🥰
I think it's possibly the moment Thomas talked about when he said to Chloe defenders ,,Just wait till you find out what Chloe did in one of new episodes". I mean whole plan when she used Kim to almost drown Marinette and in the end traumatized her. That was going overboard kind of plan so I have no idea if there could be anything worse. Chloe didn't end us as petty bully. She ended up as straight up abuser. I really had hopes for Chloe but at this point my hope is really low, close to giving up. If Chloe will never have realization moment of how awful she was and will never apologize to Marinette personally then her character is trully lost by horrible writting for her.
god yeah the writing is just so bad for her. plus like it doesn't even make sense? why did she suddenly stop being so cruel for this school year?
@@hazeclarke It also paints Marinette's parents in an even WORSE light... like they are straight up dismissing Marinette's trauma and bullying by Chloe as exaggeration.
Yeah, it’s very evident that they just made this up on the fly & didn’t properly set it up or work it in. Totally agreed that it creates a ton of plot holes in the process. Very sloppy.
Glad that you pointed this out too, Haze! Your videos are always fair & insightful!
gosh it's awful. it's so sad
Thank you bestie!
Thank you so much for this video. Literally summed up my thoughts perfectly leaving this episode
no problem bestie
Also your comparisons are on point. I love it ❤️
thank you so much!
Thomas logic: "Chloe is irredeemable but Gabe and Andre get redemption arcs"
👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻👌🏻
The thing that’s getting to me is….why would Marinette trust Chloe with a miraculous after what happened in Derision? Derision happens BEFORE any of the Queen B stuff. Why would she give Chloe an INCH after the traumatic shit she put her through?
OMG EXACTLY
I loved Chloés development until season 3. She was the only hero who's foundation is built on wanting to be a better person despite having toxic parents.The others are just "a good person".
YESSSSS up until miraculer i loved what they did with her
@@hazeclarke I am looking forward for your take on her. I watched a lot of your videos. You being a science fiction Fan. Do you plan on comparing Adrien with ghost in the shell? You know. How the show keeps ignoring they're playing with life and death. Or how Marinette doesn't even once ask if Adrien was ever real?
yeah i can write an entire list of every episode that makes no sense after this episode it it would no joke be at least a fourth of the show
Yeah at this point they shouldn’t have even done it
@@hazeclarke it only exists to justify marinettes issues and to tell anyone whole still likeschole to hate her and the people who already hate her are hating on her and her fans because they dare to like her
Chloe is a mix of Flash Thompson (bullies Peter Parker but is a big Spiderman fan) and Malfoy (spoiled rich kid who thinks he is better than everyone else and has henchmen) and both become better people at the end especially Flash who becomes Anti-Venom
I dont care if Chloe gets a redemption arc or anything, because at this point its a cliche for the bully character to be redemed and be friends with the main character so I do like they kept her as a mean character. Also, I would argue why Chloe is acting as cartoonish villan is because she knows shes losing power in school and is trying to gain it back in anyway she could if it means getting back on top. I do agree with you about the planning of the story because they really should've left more hints to show the amount of trauma Chloe cause to Marinette and the school. And honestly I wish we get more flashback episodes because I love flashback episodes and Miraculous has many opportunities to do so. I would argue that Chloe is evil like yeah she isnt an evil genius but shes done a lot of hurtful stuff that she isnt sorry for and gets a joy out of it because while some of the stuff shes done is petty but there has been other things shes done to the school and the class I would argue that is cruel and evil.
cliche or not, it's clear that the plot of derision where chloe is concerned doesn't fit at all
@@hazeclarke true I cabt argue that
They should of had 2 characters that we have never met in the place of Kim and Sabrina
because now they just look like big evil jerks who are on a SUPERHERO team fighting CRIMES and trying to stop EVIL
and this can explain why Marinette doesn't feel any PTSD towards Kim or Sabrina as they wouldn't have been involved
EXACTLY
I wrote a story about characters I didn't like trapped on an island in a barrier or forcefeild dying of covid when I was in high school
Oh wow 😂
Yo
omg I had a dream and it just made sense: what if in Deflagration (I’m sorry to bring back the naming trauma)
LILA was really working with the Resistance because she didn’t want Monarch to win that would be such a nice little plot twist
😂😂😂😂 ngl I’m not sure why she’s working with them rb
i feel mari was only having a panic attack, because the situation was happening again. the trauma she faced that day was not just because of chloe, it was kim. she takes it as a bad judgment call of HIS character not chloe. she’s used to the bullying by chloe and that’s not what made her so upset. it’s the fact she made a bad judgement call with kim and now that’s transferring over to adrian. she doesn’t want the same thing happening again. not only did kim do something horrible to her on the date with chloe being behind it all, now she’s on another date at the exact place kim did it to her and she’s scared it’s gonna happen again. not only that, adrian is also chloe’s friend. so she didn’t know if it was possible that adrian would betray her too even after thinking he was a nice guy. at least that’s how i see it.
This is why fanfiction is popular.
lol true 😂
Great video Haze! Are you still planning to make a video discussing Chloe's character bc I would love to hear your thoughts on her :D
Yes! Waiting until the end of the season though
While I absolutly agree, I also have additional problems; 1. Kim was written way more stupid and dangerously ignorant for others in this episode than in other ones (yes, he is competitive and dum, but at least friendly and cares for others... not like this) 2. Yes, it wasn't a problem previously, but her anexiety wasn't a problem AFTER, because in the episode, she had problem even holding hands, and literally two episodes later she was willing to kiss adrien with no problem..... 3. Marinette getting akumatized in a middle of a panic attack but not surrendering was too thick of a plot armor, others got transformed for less... Yes, I belive you can defeat your problems by mentaly, but feels very, very unlikely she could do what she did in that situation......
So, I feel while trauma and panic attack nothing to be laughted at or not take seriously, in this instance I feel it only served the point to make Chloe and even worse person...
oh gosh like to me in season 1 and 2 kim wasn't that stupid, like you said, i always viewed him as a good friend. while i think in 514 he may not have understood mari would be hurt by it, he would be concerned when he saw her fall into the pool
oh gosh yes it vanishes just as quickly as it came
but yes, see what you mean. to me this epiosde was more to destroy chloe further
@@hazeclarke yes! And my problem isn't they destroying her character. I don't agree, but they do them. Personally, I like flashback Chloé the best. Why? Because this is the only Chloé that works as a spoil to Marinette. She has power over others.... but in the seria, literally from the (chronologicly) first episode, even the boy who is sheltered and has only her as a friend stands up against her.... What were her chanses? And this is why I find this frustrating, because Chloé fall back to villany isn't inspiraling, and even less interestin... She isn't a strong akuma, she isn't clever or manipulative enought, she literally doesn't have anythong on Marinette, except her father's power, which isn't even really hers, because it leterally takes for the major to put his foot down, and she has nothing..... Again, she could have been a villain, but why was this the better option?
And yeah, Kim too, I belive he was in love with Chloé and such, but come on, calling Chloé nice and funny in front of his girlfriend, especially after what she did in Dark Cupid....
This is why I rewrote Miraculous season 5 to where Chloe gets the wake up call she needs and she and Marinette make peace with each other.
Omg yessss
Finally you aknowledge this problem, people discuss this for years, but now derision is such an contradiction to the previews show
I mean Chloe’s treatment has been a problem for years but this is the first time it’s opened up plotholes
It's okay if Thoams going to make her a villain. Because personality doesn't matter. They are characters, not person. Only thing matter is how they written, and if he make her a decent villain, then I will apreciate him. I get so bored of Thomas saying " She is bad, she is bad, she is bad, she is-" over and over again.
completely get you! i don't mind what they do with her as long as they do it well
Socqueine works at a craft store, it seems that Sabine and Marinette both visit the store off screen. It would be like a scene at the bakery with a milkman delivering milk and eggs and Tom acting like he's his best friend, while we've never the milkman before he should be making such diliveries two or three time a week (though some places in the EU it would happen daily), the fact we have never seen him before doesn't mean he has no relationship with the Dupan-Chang family.
From the way mari speaks to socqueline when she first enters the shop, it sounds like she hasn’t seen her in an entire year
About what you said about Gabriel, I think his motivation is good but I think that since he’s been trying to get his wife back for soooooo long I really cannot feel any sympathy for him
I really hope they don’t redeem him and that they either A) send him to jail or B) he dies (gruesome I know but I think it could be the show’s way of telling us how stupid he is for trying to get the miraculous for so long)
I probably shouldn’t be comparing miraculous ladybug to what’s probably the best movie I’ve seen but suck it I think Gabe’s motivation reminds me of KingPin’s in spider man into the spiderverse (also nobody can I’m comparing this to a children’s show because this movie is made for children too) where he lost a family member and is doing anything to get them back but the difference between these two is with Gabe you don’t actually know anything about his backstory and how Emily died (it is implied and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is canon now) you don’t really know anything about him except his wife is dead and he wants his son to be happy and I’m not saying you can reveal certain information later in the story but you can’t wait to tell us for 5 seasons! If he does end up getting redeemed it’s not a big deal obviously I’m not gonna get mad at this show because that would just make me silly but I DO think that if he does get redeemed it would be a poor writing choice
Thank you for coming to my Ted talk
oooof i do actually want him to be redeemed XD and see him finally be a father to Adrien. it would be so sweet to watch. but i can see your reasoning!
Feels like there's a difference between hate and HATE!
I’m so sorry but could you clarify a bit more 😅😅
Chloe in season 2 her niceness was like on and off and they keep making her nice the next episodes Chloe go. Back to mean that was kind of annoying 😂
Adrien have u not see what Chloe do mari since season one and half of season 2
Great video so far Haze :] Im up to 18:34 at the moment
thank you bestie!
8:43 Marinette didn’t even think about it until the swimming pool date, and she probably forgot about it.
20:04 also I noticed her panicking in Dark Cupid
I need to get this out of my mind
Mylene part is so useless. It can mean 2 thing:
1)Thomas try to destroy all sympathy for Chloe
2) Thomas try to tell us that some of her behaviours is because of her father and we should blame both of them instead of just her mother.
I don't think it's the second option. Because he get a redeemption, and show think he is a good father and he doing the right thing even when he disown her daughter after spoil her.
Doesn't matter what, it didn't impact the story. So we can delete it and nothing will change.
like i do get what mylene was saying, but at the same time, mylene's dad and chloe's dad are very different people. the parent you're left with after one abandons you will determine how you react and how they treat you will shape you. of course it doesn't excuse chloe's behaviour, but the way her father acts must be considered too
I think you're over-interpreting Chloe's behavior. She just tried to ridicule Marinette by filming her to scare her, and possibly make her fall into the water. She never wanted to drown her, or kill her. She is unaware of the repercussions of her actions, she was only 13 at the time, she doesn't think "hey, if I tried to kill my classmate by drowning her today".
i agree she didn't intend to kill/drown her, but that's what could have happened
+18:31 I've thought about the whole Socqueline thing a fair bit and this is the conclusion I have arrived at.
Socqueline is not and never was Marinette's friend she's not "Alya before Alya" so to speak.
I think what happened was Madam Wang (Soqueline's mom) who is pals with Marinette's Mom asked her daughter to keep an eye on Marinette due to her being antagonised by Chloe. (yes I know they should have had her move classes or even school in any sensible universe)
So once Socqueline left she had no reason to speak to Marinette.
BUT that said Marinette seems to be actively avoiding her, and also patronises her and acts like she's not capable when she's VERY capable, the best interpretation might be Marinette is worried she will play the hero and get hurt in her name (or Ladybug's name) but she treats her like crap and displays no guilt at all for what happened to her for defending Marinette.
Now *putting aside why the hell Sabine teaches Lila Chinese Brush painting" she supposedly gets her art supplies from The Wang art supply store, suggesting Sabine has been teaching for years (they really need some staff in that store I feel) so it looks like for all those months Sabine went shopping herself and never sent Marinette.
But in short I just think Marinette is a fair weather friend and is super expedient anyway (just look how she is in Crocoduo)
i meant it more like socqueline and alya personality wise are very similar, socqueline and mari aren't as close as mari and alya are. to me, i view socqueline as like mari's older sister, since she's protective, but she and alya are very similar
ladybug season 5 is exhausting. utterly exhausting.
its really not worth watching this show anymore
Then why are you watching videos about it?
@@hazeclarke I get to hear your reviewers' opinions on the season. and I am relieved to know I'm not an outlier in thinking that Ladybug is no longer a good show^^
Thomas says that Chloé was never meant to get a redemption arc, but with the way he wrote season two onwards, it seems like she was. Lila as a character is meant to do what season one Chloé does on a more serious and menacing level. Aswell as an actual threat to Marinette’s civilian life as she stands up to Chloé in season one and two. To put more simply, Lila is Chloé, but better. (as an antagonist) As such, Chloé, as an antagonist/villain, is fundamentally useless. Now, the obvious solution would be to remove Chloé from the equation as an antagonist. But, instead of doing that, the writers decided to make Chloé an uninteresting villain and character in general.
yeah i like chloe but to me im unsure what her purpose is?
💕
You don't have to _like_ all your characters... But Astruc takes it a step further. He HATES Chloe. I do not know how its possible to have such a burning hatred for a character _you_ created. I can't help but think that Chloe is some kind of representation of someone who bullied or offended Astruc in the past, and that's why he hates her so much. I can't think of any other explanation for why he would try so hard to make everyone hate his own character.
Even Hawkmoth _himself_ is intended to be more likeable, somehow. The actual _terrorist_ is written to be more likeable than this 14 year old girl.
lmaooo good point!
23:26 As someone who drowns my classmates, I feel very offended by the execution of that trait
My sincerest apologies
Actually, Chloe’s character was assassinated in the Season 3 finale and has only gotten worse as time went on. I think we all know who’s to blame for the assassination. (cough cough) Thomas Astruc (cough cough)
lol if it was assassinated in miracle queen then they burned the body in derision
Thomas Astruc and Zoe Lee.
For me I have an idea how derision should have gone tbh I think they should of showed marinette go on a date in area we haven’t seen before and she goes to that place with adrien like a restaurant or roller skate place or something then we get a flashback of mari getting tricked to go out with this boy let’s just say his name is Marcus she goes out with him to whatever place and he bullies her and humiliates her saying he never liked and this could be a reason why she is so obsessed with adrien because in her subconscious mind she doesn’t want to get hurt again and then yh adrien would help her and ik that defo wouldn’t create any plot holes and make you hate any characters and in the the episode they could explained that she forgot about it but it was always at the back of her head if that makes sense so to avoid being humiliated she wanted to know everything about the boy adrien but she couldn’t confess cuz she was too scared something would happen even tho she knows adrien is not like that it’s just the if which protrays aniexty very well anyway just my opinion what do you think hope you see this ❤
i like it! and a new location and new person would explain why did expeirnce any trauma at the pool or kim
@@hazeclarke ikr like cmon why we tryna make Kim and chole disgusting 🤮chole is not unredeemable now I hate it
After seeing DERISION, other than understanding Marinette's fragile mindset and that Chloe is absolutely cruel, malicious, selfish, entitled and slightly psychotic, the episode proved to be two things:
1. A last resort decision
2. A testament of Miraculous being well thought out as an idea but poorly initiated in terms of storytelling order.
In the first case of it being a last resort decision, it feels like DERISION was a last ditch effort for Astruc to drill it into viewers and fans' heads that Chloe will NEVER be redeemed and that she was meant to be an antagonist who is only meant to receive a punishing comeuppance for all her crimes and no redemption.
I would even bet that Astruc was expecting fans and viewers to stop liking Chloe originally around the MIRACLE QUEEN fiasco in season 3.
When that didn't happen, we got SOUL CRUSHER and QUEEN BANANA in season 4 where Zoe introduced as a kind of kinder and gentler version of Chloe as well as a better and more responsible holder of the bee miraculous to serve as a night and day comparison of what a good person is and isn't which Chloe clearly wasn't.
Whether Zoe was originally supposed to be in Miraculous as a character of her own personality and making we'll never know unfortunately due to the way Astruc had her introduced to replace Chloe which ruined Zoe's chances of being her own person without being compared to another 😢😢😢.
Now when that didn't work, I'm guessing the Lila and Chloe team up was supposed to do the trick since people absolutely DESPISE Lila, so the fact Chloe would team up with a person like that ought to have gotten people to dislike Chloe again.
However, when that backfired as well considering REVELATION aired before DERISION and people started to justify Chloe AND Lila then DERISION became the last ditch effort to get it into people's heads that Chloe is an antagonist with no redemption arc.
In the second case of Miraculous being a testament of poorly executed storytelling order, the case of DERISION's plot and its connection to the main plot was like it was an afterthought brought in last minute to the main plot just to prove a point.
The plot of DERISION makes it more suitable for being an episode in season 1 with the memory of Socqueline's encouraging words driving Marinette to be Ladybug or season 2 in MELADIKTATOR where Marinette could rebuke Adrien's disapproval of people celebrate being free of being tormented by Chloe starting with Marinette list how she suffered which starts a chain reaction of people airing their grievances and calling Adrien out on his apologist nature of justifying Chloe's actions.
However, DERISION could still have been used to focus on Kim without focusing on Marinette's trauma like just saying that Kim's pranks go too far and leave it at that.
Another thing DERISION ruined with Chloe's character and the plot in general is the conflicting errors of continuity it created between season 2 and season 5. In season 2, they said that Chloe's bullying nature was brought about by her mother's emotional abuse and neglect of her, while in season 5's DERISION, Chloe was always a cruel and entitled brat from the start which raises the question of whether or not the writers are keeping track of the story or just writing it and forgetting about it.
However, if DERISION is the dominant reason behind Chloe's character then the factor of Chloe's mother in season 2 was probably a 'Cause And Effect' excuse to generate sympathy towards Chloe to make her likable enough to accept her as temporary miraculous holder but it backfired when people fell in love with Chloe's positive characteristics and started to overlook the severe negative ones which probably wasn't the intended effect Astruc and the writers wanted.
So basically Chloe's "redemption arc" in season 2 were merely redemption acts where she did things to attone for certain mistakes not to be a better person but for her own benefit which we misinterpreted as a redemption arc
As for Marinette, while it does help us understand how she is now, it generated plot holes in her story and her interactions which could have been collaborated in earlier seasons.
For example, with Socqueline, in season 1 with Marinette and Alya's meeting, Marinette could have told Alya how no one has stood up for her since her old friend Socqueline but how she got suspended for so no one else tried lest they end up suspended, bullied or worse. She could have also told Alya how she wears her hair to honour her friend Socqueline when she and Alya are developing their friendship further. This would have told us more about Marinette and introduced us to Socqueline and created an understanding of the similarity between Socqueline and Alya.
Another thing that could have worked in the story's favour with Marinette's trauma, being Ladybug and Chloe bullying Marinette in season 1 or 2 is that it could have been a way to look into mental conditions such as DISSOCIATIVE IDENTITY DISORDER or D.I.D (For those who don't know, D.I.D or Multiple Personality Disorder is a mental condition characterized by the presence of two or more distinct personality states caused by traumatic events which could serve as coping or defense mechanisms to one's psyche)
Like say instead of Marinette suppressing her trauma, Marinette could have developed a separate personality in the form of Ladybug.
Instead of it just being her heroine persona, Ladybug could also have been a reference to being Marinette's other D.I.D personality generated over the years to suppress and protect Marinette's fragile psyche from reliving her traumatic experences which could send her in a downwards spiral, and when Marinette got the miraculous, the mask became a way for that personality to take control.
Of course there would be times when Marinette's original personality and her D.I.D personality 'Ladybug' would switch places at random so some of the times where Marinette might suddenly be bold towards Chloe or trying to call out Lila could be the D.I.D personality 'Ladybug' taking over because she senses Marinette's anxiety meaning that there might be a threat so she takes control to challenge the threat or when Ladybug is in hero form and makes a mistake like how the miraculouses were stolen, her panic attack was her Marinette self in control and scared that she ruined things by being in control.
Maybe there would even be times when Marinette's Ladybug personality or another personality would dislike Adrien for siding with a bully or offender instead of the victim which would explain the mixed signals Adrien got of not knowing if Marinette liked him or hated him.
Also, I don't feel like Nathalie's redemption is out of character in the story cause it kind of reminds me a bit of characters like Harley Quinn cause she blindly followed Joker until she had her epiphany and became her own person (Okay, this is the best way I can summarize Harley Quinn's story, I know it's slightly more complicated than that but I hope it makes sense). Like Harley Quinn, Nathalie blindly followed a mad man once but has had an epiphany and now she's becoming her own person and with her own goal, so I would say that her redemption arc is more or less well timed.
That being said, if some of these attributes had been better thought out than characters would make sense and the story would go much smoother.
Oh gosh definitely, that was his goal with this episode for sure. He doesn’t like it that other people like Chloe
Omg this would be an awesome episode to have Mari learning to be a superhero and make the world a better place in Season 1 instead of now in 5. And it being now has also opened up so many holes
I love your points about Alya! Mari mentioning Socqueline and what she did for her would explain so much to the audience why the girls mean a lot to each other and why they become friends so quick
Oh wow I love this DID idea! I’m not sure this show with the current target audience would be the most appropriate arena for it but I love it and what it would represent!
Writing a marinette x chloe fanfiction based on the movie rn :P
I hate how thomas has treated her just bc she was based on a school bully. He's a huge jerk and behaves like a toddler, doesn't accept ANY type of criticism and views marinette as his daughter (creepy)
I understand everyone’s opinion on seeing Chloe is a wasted character, but to me, she did push everyone to make great arcs for the show. And without her, nothing would’ve stopped Garbriel/Hawkmoth/ShadowMoth/Monarch from terrorizing all of Paris for his wishes
but that could have been achieved through other means
Sorry Haze. This has Nothn to do with the show,do you like the new Coronation??
I despise the royal family and everything they stand for and I did not watch a single second of it 🥰
@@hazeclarke...oh. Sorry I asked. just wanted your info. Sorry.
@@hazeclarke You should be the one wearing that crown BESTIE
3:26 Did you mean "good character" or "good person" while saying "good things"?
ah by good things here i meant things that are usually considered morally good actions!
I’m pretty sure Marinette has disassociative amnesia from her traumatic experience
I don't blame Chloe for being neglected and abused and spoiled, but she's also choosing to follow the patterns she sees and adopting a belief that she is better because she is rich, despite everyone's attempts to reach out. Sure, she could be taught otherwise, but she does not want to believe it. I believe in forgiveness and redemption, but not everybody is willing to receive it with humility and contrition. So I don't mind if Chloe doesn't get a redemption arc (since she was ever only seemingly interested in doing what she had to do to get a miraculous, a power which she abused).
My problem with this episode, regarding Chloe, is that her characterization as a bully changes around inconsistently throughout the series, which might match her unstable personality... but it also throws into question how she is perceived by OTHERS. Is she the annoying nuisance everyone can brush off and laugh at, or is she so menacing you are terrified of even speaking to or LOOKING at her? At times she's cunning and devious, but at other times she's babyish and petty... and her actions can range from calling the mayor of Paris to have you removed from your job because she doesn't like being told where to sit, to trying to get a girl to sit on some cake because she's jealous, to a rude comment...
Like, not to play doctor, but it's giving severe bipolar disorder, HPD, BPD, NPD, and CPTSD... because her MOOD SWINGS. I thought "oh she's getting worse" but no, apparently she's just reverting back to who she was pre-show....
ETA: Also, I really don't care if TA hates her, because TBH, I hated her too. I hated her petulance in seasons 1 and 2, and found the brief attempt at redemption to be an equally weird writing choice which felt equally as out of place for her character. At any rate, she's never been my fave, and I can easily brush it all off.
imo i'm not sure this points to chloe having some sort of condition, just inconsistent writing feuled by absolute hatred in the writing room
Where do you find season 3+
Disney +
@@hazeclarke o no I don't have disney + anymore
Anywhere else?
About how no one said anything only a few knew about what happened.
Marinette i don't believe would discuss it.
Kim is a dunce who wouldn't understand it was wrong what he did. Marionettes friend was suspended so couldn't say anything The principal at this point was to scard of chole and her father. Chole was probably still mad about her phone. So that is why I think it was never brought up
sadly i do think it's just a massive inconsistency. it absolutely should have been brought up before now
That was Sabrina’s phone I think
Like why didn’t they make Lila Marinette’s long term bully, and have Chloe come in later + get get a redemption arc? It’s such an easy solution.
Honestly I don’t mind Chloe being a bully and also not being redeemed. But just do it well you know?
Thomas Astruc hates teenagers who has girly hobbies and likes to wear girly clothes. Chloe loves girly clothes and she likes fashion and that's why she is treated like garbage. Because she is girly. Because she has girly hobbies. I hate that! And that's why I hate Marinette..
I mean mari is quite girly?
@@hazeclarke She isn't. She never wear dresses. Doesn't have long hair. Doesn't have girly hobbies and if you want to say that she likes fashion. Adrien is the only reason why she likes fashion. It isn't her real hobby unfortunately.
It got worse and it is the reason why I left.
correction: derision did not excuse any of marinette's behavior, it explains it and i get what you were saying but the show doesn't justify her actions at all. just thought i'd let you know
sadly i do have to disagree. i 100% believe this was thomas' way of excusing everything mari does
@@hazeclarke the reason why it doesn't excuse it is because she already receives a lot of consequences for the things she's done, so this episode was there to tell the audience why she's like the way she is, simply, to offer an explanation but it doesn't explicitly say "marinette is right for doing this". no, it just explains her behavior throughout the show and i think this episode would've worked much better if it was before season 5. the show still calls her out for her behavior, so it isn't excusing any of it. but i would still like to know why you think it does /nm
also, i am a bit confused why you mentioned that chloe's backstory isn't an excuse for her behavior (rightfully so) and yet say that marinette's backstory is an excuse for her behavior when it does the exact same thing w both characters. you get a backstory, it explains why they r they way they r, and ppl can sympathize w that character but at the end of the day, it doesn't excuse any behavior that comes afterward.