Model 74 "Carpati": Cugir's Romanian Walther Clone
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- čas přidán 4. 04. 2024
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The Model 74 "Carpați" is a copy of the Walther PP made by the Cugir factory in Romania. The project began at the direction of the Romanian secret police, who delivered a worn out Walther to the factory in 1972 with a request that they produce a domestic copy. Work on the design took two years before the final product was ready in 1974, and was adopted at the Model 74 (although it is colloquially known as the "Carpați", after the Carpathian Mountains around Cugir).
The Model 74 has an aluminum alloy frame and a 90.5mm barrel, almost exactly splitting the difference between the barrel lengths of the PP and PPK. It is chambered for .32 ACP, and is pleasant and easy to shoot, capable of better accuracy than most would expect thanks to its fixed barrel design. It is a single/double action gun, with a decocting lever. The magazine capacity is 8, although users typically load 7 to reduce magazine fatigue - and in police use that standard set up was two magazines each loaded with just 6 rounds. The gun was designed for a minimum lifespan of 3,000 rounds fired.
Entering production in 1974, it quickly scaled up to 6000/month. Production ran until the early 1990s, with hundreds of thousands made. They were used by police and military forces in Romania and also exported widely. After the fall of communism in Romania, a Model 95 was made in two variations. One was a steel framed version in .380 caliber, made in small quantity mostly for export. The other was a copy of the Model 74 chambered for 9mm blanks, which was reasonably popular on the Romanian civilian market. It could be fitted with a less-lethal rubber ball launcher, and the purchase permit for such a pistol also served as a carry permit, allowing them to be kept for at least a minimal form of self-defense.
Thanks to A.N.C.A., the Romanian national firearms collectors' association, for organizing the trip that made this video possible!
www.anca.com.ro
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The idea of firing some kind of pistol grenade in a self-defense situation sounds both hilarious and terrifying, for everyone involved.
To be fair - pulling out a hand grenade is the ultimate "wow cool!"-argument: very difficult to counter.
Its actually made so that germans can shoot fireworks, nothing to do with self defence, gun jesus got it wrong there.
You can fire rockets too. (jokes aside, that adapter could shoot tiny 15mm fireworks/flares)
Brick, where'd you get a pistol grenade??
Yet I would want one…
I like the backwards eotech on that HK416 up there
I swear they did that just to mess with us.
Goddamnit, I was going to comment about that.
Whoever owned that probably didn't like himself much.
It's for aiming at the people sneaking up from behind.
@@wraithwyvern528 esoteric knowledge that instagram operators don't want you to know.
It's still quite a standard issue, you can still see these pistols in different police and security service holsters, from Bucharest to the most forgotten village.
They must be so worn out by now!
@@lptomtom with how much shooting they see they re probably still under that 3k lifespan
@@lptomtom If they qualify with 48 rounds annually like we do, 3k rounds expected service life can last up to 60 years.
@@lptomtom In most of Europe, Police officers actually firing their guns in anger is very rare.
Lifetime officers often haven't fired once at a human in their whole career.
@@stanislavczebinski994 What about vampires? I mean, it might distract them for a split-second, long enough to escape.
I bought a century arms import md 74 on gunbroker in 2022. Came across it by total chance and knew I had to have it. Snagged it for a bit less than 300 beans. To this day it's one of my most prized guns, I don't shoot it much but I just love weird .32s and everything Romanian.
I'm a big fan of old .32 pistols as well. Some really neat and a few oddball guns made in that caliber. I really enjoy my CZ 70.
Love the 416s with sight marks and backwards eotechs in the background.
why'd you have to go and point it out i'm so annoyed now
All Deutsche Reich patents before 1945, were annulled by the "London Agreement" of 1946, so effective the Walther designs from pre 45 were free for anyone to copy.
I am surprised you were not told but these guns are notorious for the defect of firing when a cartige is in the chamber and safety is applied. It happened to me at Tunari firing range near Bucharest and I subsequentely become more appreciative of the redundant range rules.
I have found the firing pin in these pistols too long, and the hammer block safety piece too short to work properly. Have your Carapati check by a Gunsmith that knows Walthers.
in 1996, all officers, non-commissioned officers and machine gunners were equipped with model 74 Carpathian pistols...in the battalion where I joined the army
A stylish pistol, but insanely outdated in the 1996. It was already outdated when they put it in production in 1974 😂
@@pukkepopYou still see some cops equipped with them nowadays.
Most got glocks though, you mostly see them in rural PDs and what not.
The change was made very recently tho.
10 years ago this was still standard issue for all police.
@@daniels0376 I thought Belgian Federal Police was using outdated equipment when they used the FN High Power untill 2011. At least that was a revolutionary pistol that was relevant untill the 80’s -90’s. I find it crazy that police officers use such a limited cartridge in 2024.
Out of all the Carpati videos out there, this is easily one of them.
Sherlock?
Of all the Walther knock offs out there, the Carpati is easily one of them.
@@cyrusfreeman9972 Not really a "knock-off", as that implies an unsanctioned reproduction. Since the 1946 London Agreement nullified any 1945 or older German patents, anyone with the facilities to do so could freely copy the Walther PP design. The more correct term would be "clone".
@@jakekaywell5972 Perhaps pedantic, but perfectly precise!
The moment Ian mentioned a rubber ball being launched from the end of the pistol, I had visions of the ubiquitous cartoon gun shooting out a boxing glove to knock out their opponent.
The Romanian fire fighters are military personnel and therefore required to do periodic training with small fire arms. The “Carpati” is what we used to shoot twice a year in the 2000’s and early 2010’s when I was in the fire fighters department. And if I’m not mistaken, they still use them today. Easy to shoot pistol, I could always make an about 8 cm group at 25 m.
This gun, at least in Romania has a bit of a reputation of being underpowered. There was an old myth from comunist times that if you wear a good thick jean jacket, the Carpati wouldn't be able to penetrate it.
That's just BS... Standard for it was 4.75g@310m/s so 310^2x4.75/2000=228+J.
Standard army .45ACP Colt 911 used 15g@255m/s so 483J
9 PARA NATO has 7.45g @ 380-411m/s depending on the barrel lenght 4-5" so 537-629J
Sure if you have in that pocket something like an angle grinder ceramic disk sandwiched between two 1mm steel covers, then sure...
@@loochan325 yeah, that's why I said it was a myth
European 32 ACP loads are without exception hotter than American ones. That' probably has to do with this gun's "underpowered" reputation. Personally, I use a Yugoslav Crvena Zastava Model 70 (another strange com-bloc pistol design) fairly regularly. With Fiocci loads, it can do a fair bit of damage.
Yes, agreed. 7.65 Browning is much stronger then most armchair commandos know or realize. .32 ACP is very penetrative, compared to other pistol rounds.
the first thing ian notices about a woman is the 1970s romanian walther pp at home she has in her holster
"Is that a 1977 production date Romanian Walther PP you have in your holster or are you just here to get me through customs?"
I have had one of these for a number of years. It is a good shooter, and the grip is comfortable, but the gun has an alarming quirk. If you use the safety to decock the hammer on a loaded chamber while holding the gun sideways (sort of "gangsta" style), the gun fires. This does not happen if the gun is held upright while decocking. I do not know why this happens. Also, one thing that Ian does not mention is the magazine, which is different from the Walther magazine by having a spring-steel finger at the top left corner. Youi can see it in the shot that starts at 6:00. I assume it is to make activation of the last-shot hold-open more positive.
Confirm the issue, that's why at the firing range I always avoided the use of de-cocker, personally preferred to remove magazine, remove cartridge from the chamber and dry fire for safety. Also I confirm that, despite small size, is a pretty accurate shooter, once you your muscle memory learn the right amount of power for holdover and fine trigger squeeze. Even targets at 40 meters, half hidden behind cover, were no problem to hit. Yeah, probably stopping power is weak compared to regular 9 mm, but still a deadly simple and reliable sidearm. Can't say the same thing unfortunately for 9 mm CUGIR pistol, IWI 941 copy (or licensed, never cared about it)
I love this little pistol. I purchased mine in the 80's when the Iron Curtain was lifted. This gun was marketed as a Hungarian FEG. My example has no arsenal mark like the one shown in the video and just below the slide on the frame is marked "FEG HUNGARY CAISTALBVT" Other books have said these pistols were made without markings so they could be sent out to friendly governments and not traced back to Romania. As stated in the video this pistol is extremely accurate. I think I have about 1k shot through it and no signs of excessive wear. I know it isn't worth much so I likely will keep it till i am dust. I do recall the ads in the Shotgun News that this was a Hungarian pistol but we all know now it came from Romania.
I know the CAI STA BVT is the import mark but the FEG HUNGARY is in the same font so I wonder if CAI added the FEW marking as well as the import mark.
This video actually helped me find a good lead on information about a video that I am in the process of making, even if I’m covering a different Romanian gun. Thank you for the video!!
These were popular (and still are) because they are small, light and easy to carry and an simple to manufacture, proven design.
I have one of these exact same pistols in my (UK) 'Walther' collection, it's nothing like a PP but then it is something like a PP! Great article thanks for sharing and so much info on something that is difficult to research on...
Very informative... I hope you'll more videos about Romaian guns , now that you've visited a Romanian collection :))
From my experience the threaded cups on european blank guns are more often used to launch fireworks with the blanks, rather than rubber balls.
The rifle in the back ground with the EoTech on backwards is quite funny.
I learned something, I am looking for one to go with my pa-63. Thanks Ian.
Forgotten: The grenade launcher lookalike item of blankpistol could be a fireworks launcher, which is common on blankpistols for german market. In Germany, don' t know situation outside, you have ordinary blanks, CS, OC / Pepper ( by law only to scare dangerous annimals), rarer extraloud blanks or ones with a very large bright flash of lightning.
We had CS pistols in the US as well. But some places outlawed them or require it to be so weak, that you might as well just throw the pistol at them.
Fricking early gang. Standing by
That was a great video Ian. Thanks!
Fun fact: this is a very popular gun in Romanian culture, infamous for being inaccurate (we joke about it a lot)
Since Ian remarked that it was surprisingly accurate thanks to the fixed barrel I hoped he'd test it on a range... oh well, it's still really cool to see it featured in a FW video
OP is correct :))
The jokes about it came into be, because of the re-sell market of 3k+ ones :) (if i have my fax right)
That is pretty funny! Some of the similarly made pocket pistols share this inaccuracy.
Yeah, blame the gun.
Ian mentioned 4-5" ( 10 - 12.5cm) group at 25m, Not at 50m, so realy nothing like a target pistol capable of less the 1" at 50m, but some people have absurd expectations from a light compact afordable little pistol. Even so, at 25m you can get that accuracy even without rifling so we can be pretty sure that most of the lack of accuracy comes from the people that shoot it. Sure the light compact gun with a non target trigger mechanism can also be a challenge for untrained people, but then again target accuracy is not something they shoud expect from a police service compact little pistol...
I really learned something unique from this video, thanks Ian. Having a sidearm that can also be used as a grenade launcher is rather cool but also terrifying.
Thank you Ian I'm a Romanian and I ejoied this video. some Police officers said this gun was ok but after going regularly to the range it showed lot of issues
Pretty cool! Thanks Ian.
More Romanian guns! WOOOO!
I just thought of checking what's new on this channel, and I got a wonderful surprise to see you just posted a video of the infamous Carpati! Hello from Blaj, a city in the same county as Cugir!
Fun fact: some policemen still have these pistols issued even today, it's laughable
Abraços do Brasil, adoro seus vídeos 🇧🇷
A friend of mine has one of those. And it likes to fire when engaging the safety. Not always... just maybe one out of 3 times. Other than that its actually surprisingly nice and accurate tho and even looks quite nice when polished a bit.
Wow you're becoming quite well traveled good for you mate!!
An interesting exploration of two different approaches to defense.
Well, Im glad I got one of these last month.
You mentioned recoil with the 9x18 in a small pistol and I must agree. I have a Polish Radom P-64 and, even with it's steel frame, does generate quite a bit of recoil. In comparison a Walther PP in. 32 ACP feels like a..22. LOL
TY Ian on a truly unknown (to me anyway) pistol. I can imagine the grenade cup version is a novel feature, but with a host of lethality , from get a bandade , call the coroner. ;D
The Best pistol in the Universe...to shoot around the corners .
Bine ați venit în România
Great 💯 Thank you Ian 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Thank s
I can't imagine the reaction of a customs officer that has a random American nerding out about their gun
a great very interesting video and pistol Mr GJ.have a goood one Mr.
He finally did the video! Been hearing about these the last few months in the comments. Now I can see what the fuss is about.
Too funny. I bought one back before the COOF outbreak. It was sold as a FEG PA63 in .32 ACP. That was the only caliber of PA63 I didn't have. I bought it and brought it home then realized it wasn't a PA63. I looked it up in the book Communist Bloc Handguns by George Layman and found out (in a very brief section) that it was a Carpati M74. It is important marked as a FEG Hungary Manufactured pistol.
Very interesting.
Ian, I have a different model of the Carpati. My 1st one is a military model, w/ the small front sight. Imported by Century and because they didn't know who made it, marked FEG.
#2 is a commercial model that says on left side of slide "RATMIL MD 94" and "Century Arms".
It came w/ a grooved trigger, and glued on left side thumbrest. I am sure that was done for importation points.
It too, suffers from a very stiff trigger pull.
3 minutes! Woo! Just in time for coffee.
In 1968? you had the Prag uprising, where Romania refused to take part. It was said, that they forbade soviet troops to cross Romania to reach Prag. However there is the point, where Romania don’t get or doesn’t want to get any soviet material and they start doing their own copies, or they acquire western licenses. So the tank T85? is a bad Leopard 1 copy, you have the PSL, Carpati. Locomotives were a swiss license, cars Renault license, lorries were MAN license and even the only atomic power plant was made with help of Canadians. Ceausescu tried to do it a little like Tito and be „blockfree“.
The T85 is a T55 at heart, we wanted Leo1 egines for them but that fell through.
What a fascinating perspective. Thanks Matt.
Czechoslovakia also used .32 ACP a lot for their police.
You know, depending on how well the cup launcher worked, it might make a little more sense than having hand grenades. A launcher would allow you to lob a grenade without any sort of wind-up that you normally would need, and you wouldnt need to expose yourself or the bulk of a barrel to do so.
I can imagine two people playing catch by shooting a ball at each other
should have done a meet and greet good sir. would have been fun.
Would love to get my hands on one to experience its shooting capabilities firsthand!"
The contoured grip shape and two-tone color reminds me of a Bersa Thunder
Yes, very much so! But that is also a pseudo-copy of the Walther PP or PPK
Bloody Hell Ian, you actually pronounced Cugir corectly this time...
These Cugir pistols are not junk, contrary to what people think. They are very much Walther clones, save a few minor details.
I have 2 of them. The big problem is getting the 25lb trigger pull down. Under 19lbs, they won't ignite primers reliably. Hammer is of a different design from the Walthers.
Looks like close to the sweet spot for the purpose.
I always thought the one I have is a f.e.g. this is great information.
This reminds me quite a bit of the Hungarian PA-63.
Hi Ian, I think you kind of got it other way around with Model 95G - it's a gas pistol (Md 95 Gaz) which also coincidentally could fire blank rounds. It was never developed to fire primarily blank rounds, but rather poor mans (due to regulations) alternative for a real pistol. The same modification was done in Russia to Makarov for the same reason - it was easier to buy gas-firing pistol, and many Makarovs were converted for that purpose (and converted back by some shady individuals)
Machining on Romanian guns is so crude! I had stacks & stacks of Romy G & other kits back in 1999. Every last one had canted sights and machining marks you could grate cheese with. 🤠
They just had to be reliable, not cosmetically pleasing to the eye. Typical communist production standards. Quantity over quality.
@@PassivePortfolios "Is gun. Gun shoots. What more you want?"
because those were special made for guys like you...
Such elegant machining. Made with a hack saw and a hand file.
Doesn't have to be pretty, just has to work.
6:45 FÉG PA-63's recoil's pretty light although you'd be more afraid of the slide cutting the skin between your index finger and thumb while shooting from a higher grip purchase thanks to a "thumb rest" plastic spine on the left grip piece
The backwards EOtech bothers me more than I'd admit to myself.
A small sidenote: The th in Walther company name is not spoken the english way, but the german way, so only t. The th in german names is a relict from the time before 1873, when in german language every t was written as th.
Tanks!
For most time of History, german language was not regulatet, the people spoke and wrote in their local dialects, which often caused confusion in trade, science or diplomacy. Still today, when speaking in still existing dialects, we have problems to understand each other. So in 1873 german language was standardized/ regulated by german, austrian and swiss scientists into Standard German. This is the reason, why the allways only t spoken th disappeared in usual german language and remained only in names or words , orginating from other languages , for example Theater. But a german saying: There is no rule without an exeption! Thron ( throne) kept its th ( according to legend, by demand of Wilhelm ll).
@@ksgermania6159 : Yes, many english speakers are surprised when they hesr Old English/ Angish. But i also met an US lady, which didn't recocgnize Forke and lütt !
Yo early team, let's freakin go!
Approved by a true Romanian. Still used today and hits everything but the target
Ian: Sorry for the preservative oil.
A.N.C.A: Rust will NEVER rob us of our precious guns!
Very interesting video, thanks Ian and welcome to Romania. Perhaps you could visit a shooting range and pop a few rounds with the Carpati, I would be interested in your reaction.
Welcome to Romania.
Please do the Polish P-64 next
The cycle rate on the lamps and the frame rate on the video synchs up quite awfully, doesn't it? Really helps point out why some folks find flourescents migraine-inducing.
The actual video was really cool; like most people in the English-speaking world, I know fairly little about the routine elements of life in Eastern Europe, and having something like this about what was and is just a basic, functional tool was very interesting indeed!
How to transform a thing of beauty (a PP) into something hideous.
can you do a video on the hungarian PPK clone the PA63?
That really looks like A Bersa Thunder. LOL
Sa traiesti Anca
Ah the Carpați. A very good non-lethal lethal pistol. The running joke is if you wear a leather jacket you're safe at 20 yards. Because it can't hit you anyway.
And congrats to Gun Jesus for pronouncing the name right. It's rare!
The cup was used for flares .
That Eotech on the wall behind you 😂
Ian why does that rifle behind you have the EOTech on backwards??
My first pistol on college was an Md95, it sucked but it was cheaper than a Hi Point
Looks almost exactly like a FEG PA-63. I think the real story is the PA-63 is based on the PP, and the Model 74 is based on the PA-63. The color scheme combined with some specific ergonomics aspects like the large beavertail tell me this was inspired by the PA-63. The closest Eastern Block gun to the PP / PPK was the Polish Radom P-64.
I own one of these guns (in Europe), mine was built in 1981. got it 25 years ago for approximately USD/EUR 225.
Thanks anyway for the insights - I learned something new!
What I missed in the video: this gun comes with a horrible standard pistol holster; still haven’t figured out how to properly use it.
@Ian: would be interesting if you could also show the standard holster that comes with service pistols.
Which is it ian? Does it weigh "just barely over half a kilo? Or "well under a lb.""??? Both cant be true
hi Ian, if' you're going to feature any other romanian firearms pronouncing "ÂÎĂȘȚ" is a bit easier than you might think "Î" = "Â" (up arrow) is basically pronounced "ew" , "Ă" is "uh", "Ș" is "shh" as in shushing , and "Ț" is pronounced "tss" as in ants
ă sounds like e in water.
â/î sounds like e in cattle or like the sound you make when you're punched in the liver.
ș souns like sh in sheet.
ț sounds like ts/tz or zz in pizza.
He had natives pronouncing things the correct way for him, don`t worry. But ther`s just so much that one can do on such a short notice.
That belly in the front strap of the grip is odd. Also strange that they commonly only carried 6 round in the mag. There must have been reliability issues that were not worked out. This design with an aluminum frame is a bit light to be chambered in anything but 32 ACP, 25 ACP or 22LR. I've shot similar designs in 380 with aluminum frames and the recoil is stout + the guns beat themselves up fairly quickly due to the aluminum alloys that were available at the time of production
Eh, I'd wonder if the ammunition they issued wasn't packaged in multiples of 6 or 12.
Much like the way 32 rounds became a standard for 9mm SMGs, because the Luger (and later P38) meant Germany packaged 9x19mm ball in multiples of 8.
@@geodkyt Could be.
Yes, the magazines have issues feeding past 6 rounds, a more broken in magazine can tolerate 7 rounds.
He presented his old worn out PP
During my military service in the nineties this was the pistol we were supposed to carry besides the Md. 1963 (AK). But on the firing range we practiced with Md. 1933 (Tokarev). Honestly, the Carpați was pretty unimpressive... 🙂
Ian I lived overseas for 24 years and travelled the world. But you are fast catching up to my countries list !
The PP is 98mm... Presumably it was a cold day when they measured it...
So the reason why it has the accuracy of a shotgun with birdshot at 5000m , is because they designed it based on a worn out weapon. Interesting.
Ian, are you in Romania? I will love to have a drink with you. :)
why are those holo-sights/red-dots backwards?
Anyone else notice the backwards eotech in the background?
Is the model 74 barrel internally threaded at the muzzle?
Someone tell that association the EoTech in the display case is backwards
What is up with the backwards Eotech's in the background?
Love your videos, but one pound is approx. 10% less than ½ kilo. - King George III
Shrinkflation.