I attended a class that an executive protection company out of Las Vegas had for their remote employees, which also included their annual qual. Only 6 people passed their qual, me being one, and i don't work for them. Their lead instructor did the demo's from the 3 yard line. Range theatrics all over the place. Dude was a total clown. I later found out he was fired by LVPD for shooting an unarmed man. There are some really bad "instructors" out there.
The worst part is that they think they're the best...zero humbleness/self-recognition of actual reality of their proficiency (or lack of thereof). Ego-driven. Dangerous to common folks in my opinion. Worst part, a lot of people don't vet these 'instructors' find themselves in the middle of a clown show having already paid and making it getting a refund very uncomfortable, awkward and most times impossible..."I want a refund because you suck as an instructor"? With a reply such as "Who are you to claim that?". Best thing for people is to do their due digilence and see who they're about to train with before paying. References, background, instructor's training, classes and curriculum, whether he/she competes and what disciplines, etc.
i went to the range with a neighbor of mine who had a glock/revolver carry kit and had worked as a security guard. i just kind of assumed he wasn't a complete goober cause his guns weren't shit and he was telling me about all the (expensive) tactical training he did. at a gun store some guy knew who his trainer was and waxed poetic about how experienced he was and said he was ex special forces. then when we show up the entire time he's just doing extremely elaborate performative theatrics with reloads and positioning in front of the berm and did not hit the paper at all at 25 feet it really seems like actually putting a bullet on target is completely irrelevant to those people
I had an instructor that was an BEAST. However, he had gotten old and shot very little because he enjoyed coaching others so much. It's definitely possible to be a great instructor and not shoot at a high level. He never disrespected or dismissed other coaches and their methods. His coaching on the mental game was where he really separated himself from other instructors. He could stand beside you and hold your gun and have you develop your grip and he would guide the gun and pull the trigger for you on a moving target to show you the different methods on hitting moving targets so you could see it from behind the gun for visual learners. Dude was amazing
Anything is possible. I could not practice live or dry for a year and still be really good. Ricky Carmichael retired a decade ago and will still smoke any local pro, it gets ingrained in you. But, he sounds like a good guy and get what you can.
Think of all the Olympic level athletes who are coached by similar types of people who would not be able to compete themselves at such a high level, but they know their sport and are able to coach it.
Cus D'Amato and Freddy Roach weren't considered "high level" boxers but sure as hell were and are high level coaches/trainers! John Danaher was not known as a "high level" BJJ competitor, but is one of the greatest grappling coaches. To dismiss one's knowledge/experience is the wrong mentality. Just because someone is high level doesn't always mean that person is a high level instructor.
Certainly happens. Like the coaching aspect of many older guys that are out of shape but were studs back in the day when they were younger and competing at higher levels and can extend a lot of wisdom and useful teaching/coaching in their next phase of life. Happens in many professions as well as firearms.
Funny I trained with and instructor and asked this very same question and he responded: "Simple, you don't demonstrate anything. You are there to guide him and make HIM/SHE do the drill/shooting." Lost ALL respect right there and then. Got my certificate, though... 😅😒
@eduardogallardo9474 To be a devils advocate, sometimes actually taking up time doing live fire reps of a simple accuracy-only based standard can be more like showing off than actually giving benefit to a student.
@eduardogallardo9474 That instructor in your case though should have absolutely demoed because you needed it. You were questioning his teaching so he should have demonstrated what he can actually do.
The best instructors can not only make a demo of what you’re suppose to do, on demand, they can also make demos of several ways you’re gona fuck up the drill so you know what to look for
This is exactly where I'm at and how I found your channel. I'm an instructor at my department but have never shot competitively. I've been shooting for a long time and do well on our courses, but I realized that even with a positive outcome the process to get there was very convoluted. I have the desire to change our procedures for training not because I think I know better, but I want us all to do better and be better. This channels been a big help so far and I'm trying to get lined up to attend a class. A big thanks from the midwest
Problem is standards have been lowered to alarming levels. Candidates are difficult to find, guys pass because they can’t afford to lose them and the push for girl cops is strong. You go advancing the expectations and they will fail or get passed due to lowering the standards. The security companies are at zero for passing armed guards. As long as you don’t ND, you pass.
@HWG-wm8ld I've definitely seen the lowering standards over the last few years, and the application rate has dropped to almost nothing. Before we'd have 200 people show up to fill a hiring list of 20ish people. Now we just hire anyone with a pulse, push em to get the minimum qual score, and hope and pray they get better over time through the aforementioned convoluted training schemes
As an instructor I get so much resistance from the majority of incompetent instructors. They see it as s gravy government job, easy. (Many are also on the Brady Liat but not terminated.) I got into instructing out of frustration. I am NOT the best, but I am so much better than those clowns. I am also safer. I also treat others well and care so much to be a good example. You would not believe the threats and resistance to people teaching well. One Police Officer attempted to stab me in class. He could not read, and he was upset that I would not pass him on the written test. His score was
Ben, I am one of those !!!... I am an instructor that does not shoot at a high level. I know my limits. I bring new shooters to the point they don't kill themselves or someone else. I "train proper use of a firearm, Firearm safety, proper stance (sort of ). I had a retired NYC cop bring his kid to my class to get his CCW QUAL. During the break he was asking me about training for competition. I told him there is nothing I could offer him at this point as I was also still learning . I have been shooting on an off for 40 years and I knowledge I can pass along that is valuable. I never trained for competition nor did I ever compete. But I don't leave my lane. I am also working to improve my level of training and take classes as often as possible. I stumbled upon you content and found your information was good and have been spending some time training (dryfire) on this information. I will be in one of your classes at some point when I can make schedule align with your training. All am am saying is not every instructor needs to be at your level. As long as I am not going around on FB putting rubber bands and 5 gal buckets tied to ones arms and calling myself guru.... LOL
Just got into guns during the end of the pandemic. Probably only have a few months worth of experience on the range. Been watching so many CZcams videos instructors how to shoot control recoil and make follow-up shots while watching your videos have helped me diagnose what I’m doing wrong especially shooting my red dot. just went to the range this month and trade your method of training even blocked off my red dot and concentrated on a spot on the target. I was able to hit all in the A zone with rapidfire shots. Just want to say keep up the good work no instructor is putting content like this on CZcams
As a LEO, most of my fellow Instructors were barely adequate! I taught the TCOLE Instructor School for Texas a few years and most applicants could shoot a Qual COF but that was about it. I was about 3 years into my APD Range assignment when I realized I needed something more and turned to USPSA. Many of my cadre could shoot ONE target fairly well but shooting multiple targets was a slow process and moving was out of the question. The ones that could shoot well often didn't understand WHY. 🙄....When I made GM in Limited, I found some Instructors greatly intimidated by that status. In 2007 I won the Texas Limited Championship and came back to find a couple instructors who were SWAT guys who wouldn't talk to me and haven't since 2007! 😳.....When I go back yearly to do my LEOSA QUAL for retired guys, I get an audience when I pull out my 2" K frame....My EDC is a .45 ACP Staccato which I freely try to hand around but seldom get any takers. At APD and DHS, I always did a demo for the class but I'll have to admit, the DHS issued pistol was not a favorite with it's "LEM" trigger! 😡.......If you hand around the internet, you'll find a LOT of WANNABE Instructors with very little skill who charge money! They're easy to spot as their bio is usually written in "third person" and use words like "many", "more than", or "almost" and they refer to themselves as "we" when they are a one man show! If you can get them to post a video, its becomes very obvious who and what they are NOT! The few videos I post show ME AND THE TARGET for effect! And there are the "I practice for the REAL WORLD" crowd.....😁
The "instructor" thing is so very broad. Example, you can become an instructor to just teach fundamentals, you can become an instructor that only focuses on pistol, or rifle, etc. You can become an instructor to teach high level stuff, etc. Example, a brand new person who has never picked up a gun, should never spend $500 on say Ben Class, JJ Class, Mason Class, etc. Why?? Because it would be way to high level for them. This is where the introduction to handgun instructor would be handy. But I totally get what Ben is saying, because being an instructor in the car racing world is the exact same thing. I'm a car racing instructor here in Texas that has one of the top 10 fastest times at Eagle Canyon Raceway and at Motor Sport Ranch, and you have so called instructors where their training won't take you to the next level, and its just good for the basics.
Im a bit torn on this. I am not sure an instructor or coach has to be the best shooter in a class, or able to demo high level shooting. I can see the point, but if you look at some other sports (football, F1 racing, track and field, UFC fighting etc.) the best coaches may have had some success in their career, but their ability to "see" skills and the gaps, and instruct and motivate others has proven to be a successful formula, vs. being able to be able to demo the skills to the folks they are instructing. Im conflicted by this. I think the issue is that shooting is a smaller sport, and maybe in order to cut out the bad instructors from the good instructors, the dividing line is the ability to demo what you teach has become the standard, but I propose that some day Ben will NOT be able to shoot or demo this, and he would still be an amazing instructor. What if Ben had an accident, and lost a finger or Arm. I'd still take a class from him. Those are my thoughts...
I love how you embraced being the controversial guy and turned this into a shitposting channel. You're still right, but the delivery is A+ for clowning on others.
@@HWG-wm8ld no, and it's not even a Chuck Norris reference. Back in the day we had accounts like Arizona Ranger, Texas Red or in my case Texas Ranger to make jokes below the Marty Robbins - Big Iron video. Before these F*#&%! turned off the comments section.
My first advanced instructor(lives here in AZ) said to our 3 person class “I can’t swim through the ocean, skydive or do 100 pushups like you, but I’ll shoot you.” He shot side by side with us all week. We knew he was the shit, but seeing it was inspiring. I learned the most from that week and made many visits back over 8 years. I’ve had plenty of other experiences that were great, maybe I just got along better with this guy.
There’s an old saying, “Those who can…… DO…….. Those who can’t……. TEACH!” Occasionally due to unforeseen circumstances, monetary incentives, or just a true love of passing on knowledge you will find someone that has or had the ability to perform at a high level that also has the gift of articulation. Likewise, there are a lot of extremely talented individuals that can’t articulate their message or make it palatable for the masses. I enjoy your shooting videos, but also the process you use in assessing new information and products. Best part, it’s free! Ordering all my firearm needs from the pro shop when I can as a way to say THANKS!
The following is not written as a wholesale defense of "instructors that can't shoot." However. Coaches, more often than not, cannot perform at the level of their athletes. This does not make them poor coaches. No one expects the head football coach to be the best receiver on the field. By rule, a 10th degree blackbelt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu must be at least 82 years old. He or she is not going to be performing even to the level of a high level blue belt that is 60 years younger. That does not mean that the instructor cannot effectively instruct. Instruction is about knowledge transfer. An effective coach can correct technique, form, game strategy, etc; without having the physical ability to perform the tasks s/he asks of the athletes.
You make an excellent point, and that is part of the nuance around this whole issue. It also occurs to me that there are plenty of instructors who do a good job at teaching newbies who know their own limits and stay in their lane and aren't trying to teach what they don't know. I would say those are good instructors.
@haroldlee4037 I agree. My bowling coach no longer has the physical ability to roll the ball well. But he is such a student of the game that he can see someone bowl, and make suggestion(s) that help almost immediately.
It depends on if they are teaching a true knowledge base, meaning they truly understand the concepts and information they are teaching even if they can’t perform them or just regurgitating information from someone else’s studies. Most boxing, mma, nba & nfl coaches can’t or have never played at the level they are coaching at, doesn’t mean they don’t know what needs to be done to perform at high levels. Instructor Zero can perform all the silly shit he teaches doesn’t mean it is valid where as Cus D’Amato was a sought after boxing coach even though he never fought.
You sir understand "learning" in any field, from sport to surgery, better than then most. Problem occurs when there are participants in a class with abilities from A to Z and the instructor tries to teach them all at the same time. Someone will be disappointed and their solution is to spout out something that has not been well investigated.
As LE firearms instructor who you are probably talking about, I would agree with you. Just curious what skills a firearms instructor needs to have before you would say he can shoot. I mean compared to you and other high level performance instructors, we all suck. That said, I'm a B class skill level. I never have claimed to be a great shooter but I consider myself competent. Also, I have taken a couple of classes that taught more performance based shooting. While I enjoyed both and learned a lot, those really didn't translate to the reality of LE training. It goes back to the reason resetting the trigger in so indoctrinated in LE. You were absolutely correct that it will hinder a shooter who wants to get to a high level of performance. The reality is 90% of LE have no interest in shooting and getting better. Most never shoot unless made to and many wouldn't carry a gun is they didn't have to. I realized early on the reality of being an LE firearms instructor is I need to make terrible shooters mediocre, and mediocre shooters somewhat competent. I know that sounds bad, but that's the reality.
I appreciate your thoughts, especially as a new guy to the pistol. There's so much to wade through and you have a great knack for cutting to the chase. Just got one of your Dry Fire books and am putting in my practice. Thank you!
The PGA of America has a player ability test which is a 36 hole event to make sure aspiring members to the PGA and graduates of the PGA Golf Managment program are able to at least play golf on a decent level. At least you know if someone you are taking golf lessons from is a PGA professional then they were able to do that at least at one point in their life. Flight instructors must pass a written and practical exam with the FAA. Maybe it's time for a shooting instructor standard so people at least know what they are paying for when signing up for a class? Also, is it possible that LE instructors are not chosen by who would make a good instructor but rather who they helped get elected or who they are buddies with?
The instructor doesn’t have to be like the best of the best, but definitely have to be competent in shooting. I think Master and A rank shooters are a sign of someone who is able to shoot and have a good fundamentals to teach.
I'm already seeing other CZcams instructors adopting competition techniques but trying to make it sound like it came from a tactical background instead of "gamers". I guarantee that in about 2-4 years you're going to have a bunch of them regurgitating what you've been teaching but they won't give you any credit. Specifically: Dot occlusion Target focus 100% of the time Doubles drills and explaining what the sights are doing You were literally the FIRST one on the internets to really push these concepts and techniques. It's just a matter of time before they steal it and call it their own. You say it takes time and I agree. But you know what's happening? Them dying off, literally. They're getting old and their inbred institutionalized dogma is slowly dying with them.. It's literally the next generation of younger, more savvy users who aren't fearful of new ideas and are more open to innovation that are going to change the culture. IMO that's the demographic that's going to have the most impact on the sport.
This definitely a gap I’d like see bridged. I started shooting IDPA 6 years ago, I still do… however about 7-10 matches in, I had to make a decision. Was I in it to become GM / National Competitor material? Or was I in it to improve my overall skills for my conceal carry / protector goals… I chose the latter. I still shoot IDPA, and local club matches. Great reps… and it continues to drive home the importance of being capable. And that’s how I instruct now….
To add a thought to what you are saying, I have always been told that those that "can" do it are often not the best teachers, and the example that I will give is Chuck Liddell when he was in his prime in the UFC. He just had that something EXTRA on his punches that put guys out. You could not quantify it or explain it, and when he would try to teach other people/students how to do what he did, when he showed people how to do the exact same drills/training that he did, people could not replicate his results. To Chuck's mind, because of who he was and what natural/innate ability he had could not be taught to others, and thus, they reached a different result/conclusion than he did. You see this often times in the NBA, where some of the best/star players make mediocre coaches, but the guy that maybe played D1 ball for four years at a small, midwest program and had no shot in the NBA turns out to be the best coach of all time.
I see your point, but here’s my perspective. Tiger woods was/is considered the best in the world at what he does. Let’s entertain for discussions stake, that we’re talking about Americas elite HR team. Both Tiger and the HR team didn’t learn everything they know from someone who was the best teacher in the world, what I mean is that they started out like everyone does, basic level instruction and from there, they increased skill and level of instruction. We could argue that cops should be highly proficient in handgun shooting since it’s their primary weapon more often than not. Those cops also went through growth of skills and coaches. The problem is, most cops plateau in skill at a certain point unless they seek outside instruction or choose to learn on their own. Most department training heads are old dudes on their way “out”, who don’t care about the betterment of their students and would rather stick with what they know, than learn themselves and push that info onto their students. The other issue is the lowest common denominator, which is where the training can only be so challenging due to the lowest performer holding back the group. There’s more to it than just being good at shooting to be a good instructor, but as a baseline they should be proficient themselves, and be understanding of what is possible through training. Another issue with the golf analogy is, anyone can google what a professional golfers handicap is, and understand what that means, and use that as their North Star with respect to training. In shooting, much of that info is also available, but people won’t go through the trouble of understanding HF or time standards to have a bar that is set for them. Most of the lackluster trainers aren’t even aware of the performance possibilities that are common in today’s world of shooting because they are stuck teaching and doing what was “good” 20 years ago. Red dots on pistols alone have allowed higher performance for most people across the board with minimal extra training, and the bar is continuing to climb higher each year.
Many seem to think that’s a shower curtain. I’m not convinced it isn’t a window curtain. There’s also a picture on the wall. That would be odd for a bathroom, wouldn’t it? I think he’s in a corner chair of… maybe a hotel?
An instructor teaches, they dont necessarily need to be a matksman to do that Teaches the core fundamentals. I can say i can outshoot many of the instructors at two local ranges, they are great instructors.
I think a lot of people have been showed a way. And they bought in and then don’t realize that they didn’t know what the didn’t know and get embarrassed. Egos get in the way. It’s a shame but very strong in LE world
Took a cqb class at my PD. Only demo the lead instructor did was 10 rounds in 10 minutes at 25 yards on a B8. Anything else was within the 5 yard line for demo. When i asked for demos i was told "we dont want students seeing us and trying to shoot at our level"
Everyone wants to be the most important person in the room, when they bring their guns it can disintegrate into a real egotistical shtshw with some people.
You dont have to be a marksman to know how to be a good teacher and visa versa. Its like a coach of an athlete, he doesnt have to be an olympian to qualify as a good coach.
Where I live in South Africa, the majority of intructors are ex military/police teaching tactical self defense stuff (we have a high violent crime rate) to people who are not proficient with pistols. So they just cover the basics of marksmanship, hammer on safety, and discuss principals of the defensive mindset. You always hear the instructor shout "front sight!" (Nobody puts dots on their carry guns) and "slow on the trigger!" when people are missing. I always get funny looks when i tell people to be target focused, just hold the gun with your hands and let the rest of your body be relaxed, dont try muscle the gun or fight the recoil... some people just dismiss me as outright crazy.
Some friends and I discuss this all the time - how do you determine who a good instructor is. There are a lot of really good instructors out there, who may not be 'the best' at whatever skill/task (maybe they never were, maybe they aged a bit, etc), but they know enough to know good/bad, and they are capable of teaching it to people, etc. The Williams sisters had tennis coaches all throughout their careers - those coaches were not better tennis players. Then you have the white-noise of 'tactical' people dismissing 'competitive' people, and of course the opposite happens. And then the 'teachers' who are simply frauds, there is a local company, and the stuff they teach is downright dangerous...but they are dirt cheap, so they get a lot of volume. And most of their students don't know better. So what is the unknowing person who wants to learn do? How can the 'unknowing' know who/what is good/bad - such a tough spot to be in.
In the late 90's as a "C" class shooter, I was shooting better than most LE and military instructors they sent us to. What level do you think is acceptable for a firearms instructor? I'm guessing the minimum should be "B" class. Thoughts?
Shooting is a perishable skill. Being an instructor myself I try to take a minimum of 2 classes a year with other instructors. I shoot weekly and dryfire almost daily. I demo for my students. I cant expect my students to do something I am incapable of doing, nor can I teach/coach them to get better if I am unable to do so.
This is a human condition and any authority is not liked. That’s why you must read your Bible and put those thoughts aside. Once you let go of the authority issue everything comes way easier especially listening to others advice or teaching. Another great video Mr. Stoeger! Please keep it up!
I will bring a different perspective into your discussion, being a retired professor who went to school to learn how to teach, and my new profession is firearms related, my observation so far is that every firearms instructor I have seen in firearms classes have no clue on how to teach.
You have to be extremely selective with where you go for a class or clinic. This applies with any skill or discipline. I noticed this very early on in weightlifting classes, and then shooting classes. There's too many people holding on to obsolete ideas and are unwilling to explore different training options. People stuck in their ways have inflated egos and are insecure.
I could never be an instructor. The way the internet is I don't know if I could handle all the misinformation students are getting combined with all the hypothetical scenarios people want training for...
I never had a “class” from an IALEFI-certified instructor that didn’t feel partially lobotomized. I have heard “slow down and get your hits” and “you want to spread your bullets out so you do more damage” more times than is reasonable. Agencies would be better off having the local B-class heat come train. My sister’s department is near JJ’s home; their redshirts take a class with him on what seems like an annual basis. There’s a lot of social pressure at her department towards fitness and competition skills.
Video idea: Slide stop override and grip. I have a high support hand grip and often don’t get last round hold open. On my Gen 5 Glock I cut the left side of the slide stop off. Now I always get slide lock, but reloads are too slow with the sling shot method. Thoughts?
It depends on what you mean by "can't shoot," I think. In another world, I used to tudor young racing drivers. I've got a lot of experience, but never quite had the basic neurological advantages that truly great drivers have. In a sense, I "can't drive." I'll never be a pro behind the wheel. But I can teach beginners who do have that talent. Most of them end up better than me -- sometimes by a lot. You can be bad because your fundamentals are bad, and you'd be a bad teacher, but I think you can also be bad because you're old and always had an essential tremor or something.
Advice for small fish in an even smaller pond? I’m not good. But where I practice due to where I live is maxed out at an indoor range. I’m not beneath instruction. Finding someone to get instruction from is hard because of the usuals that go they ask for advice and not the other way around. Once you start getting ok at shooting I think it’s gets to your head. But now to get better you need to find someone with a proven track record and they don’t grow on trees.
This battle has been going on forever.... "A friend" was a B level in the 90's and Instructor for their Dept. Had to fight to bring in Isosceles stance and modern grip. They had been teaching Weaver.... Cops are like everyone else, they have FUD's and sometimes they are on range staff. 😂
Lots and lots of the greatest coaches in all different sports were mediocre players at best. Bill Belichick. Sir Alex Ferguson. Scotty Bowman. And some of the greatest athletes in history fail as coaches - Wayne Gretzky for example. Being able to do something and teaching someone how to do it are two different skill sets.
Thats the issue with law enforcement. I shoot with my county sheriff's dept at times and they are slow to accept uncomfortable training methods. They hate doubles where I'm at too, even if it will help them overall.
It's uncanny how you nail everything to the tee. Everyone wants to be an instructor it seems. The best tactical gurus I ever met or trained under were also competitors at master level. I know so many dozens of instructors that can't teach, coach or demonstrate beyond intermediate level. I find that even beginner shooters can learn better from a master level instructor. It prevents them from programming a bunch of garbage. Oh, slow and smooth does NOT equal fast. Smooth flowing efficiency does. Great content, I've never seen you say anything wrong. I steal some of the ways you communicate ideas I have. I dare someone to go force on force with you.
Seeing that things are fucked up is where I’m at right now. However my sphere of influence has been greatly reduced so I’m left sending videos to a friend who can pass it on or just ranting to my girlfriend…
I big part of LE and military training that hampers it is the motivation level of the students. A lot of them just don't really give a shit enough to put in the work to really get proficient. All small percentage of cops and troops and troops actually enjoy it and those are the guys that will train on their own time and their own dime away from their own agencies. The agency instructors get grumpy and closed minded a lot of times because they have to teach to their audience. There are some poor shooters in LE but I've personally never seen an officer fired for failing a qualification outside the basic academy training
Best instructor I've had was a competent and serious shooter, but not fantastic. She (yes, she) had zero ego and was able to observe students and focus on their needs, and scale the difficulty up or down depending on size of class and/or student abilities. She would demonstrate, but not show off, as I've seen male instructors do. On the other hand, there are some very high-level competition shooters that are horrible instructors. Coaching and competing are VERY different pursuits.
Whenever I’m presented with a novel concept that contradicts orthodoxy, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the presenter to make the case for his position. I’m not closed to new ideas or methods but they must be validated before they displace established, tested and proven methods. I recall just a few years ago a training company that was trying to convince everyone to abandon “target focus” and “front sight focus” in favor of “rear sight focus”. It ended up that the guys selling this snake oil (a couple of morbidly obese middle aged guys who’d never seen action outside the flat range) were just trying to carve out an identity through novelty rather than earn distinction through excellence. They actually managed to get a little traction with a few popular CZcamsrs picking up their talking points and giving positive reviews to their classes.
I did shooting range instructor.. operative instructor.. law enforcement instructor and idpa ipsc sort of instructor.. . The two world (law enforcement and shooting competition) are two different world.. yuo have to understand to who your information are addressed... the two kinda Guy are similar but not equal .. what will work for one maybe it is not the best for the other... There's some area where the two world intersect.. you keep in mind this and you're good to go.. better if you can really shoot well in the shooting range in both ..
It depends upon your mission. Games are not gunfighting It’s not how fast you shoot as much as it is how fast can you decide to shoot. Observe, Orient, Decide and Act. If that protocol is not efficiently applied it doesn’t matter how fast you shoot. You can never make up that time. I’m not saying that good shooting is not important. As Cooper said a long time ago, it’s a triad of Marksmanship, Tactics and Mind Set. One without the others will get you dead.
What would be a relevant minimum performance standard for firearm instructors to teach "basics" at the local level? The NRA (laugh) has a test, similar to 16 of 20 shots inside a 6" circle at 15 yard, slow fire unsupported. I am nit as good as Ben, nor do I make claims like that. When I shot my qual, I got 20/20 within a 3-1/2"' circle with a G19. My wife got 20/20 within a 2-1/2" circle. I am proud of her. Our cadences were 0.5 second par times. My B8 scores are in the low ro mid-90"s with my everyday carry gun. I am NOT saying that marksmanship makes a good instructor. It is one of many skills that are needed. This is just something that is quick and easy to measure. Here is the kicker. I have NEVER come across a law enforcement "instructor" that does better than me (and I am NOT that good). I have been "training" instructors at the entry level for over a decade. Maybe 5% of the current police instructors can pass the NRA test. Maybe 20% of the civilian instructors can pass. I have come across 3 police instructors that got 20/20, 2 were Air Marshals. I had a dozen civilians get 20/20. An audit was done, and less than 20% of the Training Counselors could pass the basic trest, 16/20 inside a 6" circle at 15 yard. I am NOT the best. I always get 20/20 from a cold gun (no practice) I ran a test with a class of 16 police instructors on B8 targets at 25 yard. Every single police instructor got 0-0X, every single one. My score was 94-3X. That is not magic, but at least I can hit a target at a cadence of 1 shot per second. There are then many more skills I have to do and teach beyond marksmanship. At least I try to be competenr.
If I may, to answer your question (which you kind of did already with what your stated after your question) is to be able to show everything you demand of your students regarding actually shooting. But if you really want to take it to the next level, shoot dynamically, a.k.a., Practical Shooting. Whether USPSA, IPSC or even IDPA. I also believe shooting SOME drills (some well known) to evaluate certain skills and techniques is very valuable as the student (and the instructor) would now have a base on where they stand and work on getting better with a specified measurable criteria (such as time, accuracy, distance).
I don't generally take advice from people who cant beat me in any sport .... Granted things change, but then you should be able to implement those changes with good effect...
The coach is not necessarily better at the sport than the pupil...but may have a wealth of knowledge and experience to teach, other than being great at teaching and conveying info in an understandable way. Having a keen eye to recognize errors/mistakes/ineficiencies to teach and correct them is a criteria in an instructor's toolbox in by itself, and not all coaches/instructors possess this. Like lots of people have stated, you may be great at something but suck at teaching and vice versa. Obviously you can be good at both. Recognizing your own level and being humble/honest about it, in my opinion, is key to building a trusting relationship with the student: "I can only get you so far/I can only teach you so much.". Sorry, I piggybacked on your comment to put my two cents on the matter.
So many people are just completely closed minded morons. It’s really as simple as that. Not just with shooting, but most things in life. Why dismiss someone that can shoot at a high level just because they shoot competitively? You can learn from anyone that is proficient in what they do. I guess their problem is they are not intelligent enough to take those techniques and tips and learn to apply it to their own application. I’ve never even been to a competition to watch, yet I have improved my shooting just from watching and paying attention to your videos.
damn bro actually talking hella shit today. Based on what you say here I can tell you would judge the ever loving shit out of me, but I guarantee you'd be doing yourself a disservice by not hearing my lesson just because of a couple of your OWN preconceptions about what things "should" be like. In just one of your other videos you talk about doing what works, well that applies to language and methodologies too, not just how we specifically grip a pistol. People from many walks of life have different cause and different perspectives about how to approach problems, thinking to yourself "this guy can't shoot" after only initial observations is a dangerous level of ignorance to practice.
I attended a class that an executive protection company out of Las Vegas had for their remote employees, which also included their annual qual. Only 6 people passed their qual, me being one, and i don't work for them. Their lead instructor did the demo's from the 3 yard line. Range theatrics all over the place. Dude was a total clown. I later found out he was fired by LVPD for shooting an unarmed man. There are some really bad "instructors" out there.
The theatrics make me cringe extra hard, but if you’re former/current military/LE, jacked, or both, you can sell this BS even easier.
The worst part is that they think they're the best...zero humbleness/self-recognition of actual reality of their proficiency (or lack of thereof). Ego-driven. Dangerous to common folks in my opinion. Worst part, a lot of people don't vet these 'instructors' find themselves in the middle of a clown show having already paid and making it getting a refund very uncomfortable, awkward and most times impossible..."I want a refund because you suck as an instructor"? With a reply such as "Who are you to claim that?". Best thing for people is to do their due digilence and see who they're about to train with before paying. References, background, instructor's training, classes and curriculum, whether he/she competes and what disciplines, etc.
Had to have been a white man bc they shoot unarmed black all the time
i went to the range with a neighbor of mine who had a glock/revolver carry kit and had worked as a security guard. i just kind of assumed he wasn't a complete goober cause his guns weren't shit and he was telling me about all the (expensive) tactical training he did. at a gun store some guy knew who his trainer was and waxed poetic about how experienced he was and said he was ex special forces. then when we show up the entire time he's just doing extremely elaborate performative theatrics with reloads and positioning in front of the berm and did not hit the paper at all at 25 feet
it really seems like actually putting a bullet on target is completely irrelevant to those people
@@eduardogallardo9474 I am retired professor, none of the people you mention have a teaching degree, what do you expect?
I had an instructor that was an BEAST. However, he had gotten old and shot very little because he enjoyed coaching others so much. It's definitely possible to be a great instructor and not shoot at a high level. He never disrespected or dismissed other coaches and their methods. His coaching on the mental game was where he really separated himself from other instructors. He could stand beside you and hold your gun and have you develop your grip and he would guide the gun and pull the trigger for you on a moving target to show you the different methods on hitting moving targets so you could see it from behind the gun for visual learners. Dude was amazing
Anything is possible. I could not practice live or dry for a year and still be really good. Ricky Carmichael retired a decade ago and will still smoke any local pro, it gets ingrained in you. But, he sounds like a good guy and get what you can.
Think of all the Olympic level athletes who are coached by similar types of people who would not be able to compete themselves at such a high level, but they know their sport and are able to coach it.
Cus D'Amato and Freddy Roach weren't considered "high level" boxers but sure as hell were and are high level coaches/trainers! John Danaher was not known as a "high level" BJJ competitor, but is one of the greatest grappling coaches. To dismiss one's knowledge/experience is the wrong mentality. Just because someone is high level doesn't always mean that person is a high level instructor.
Certainly happens. Like the coaching aspect of many older guys that are out of shape but were studs back in the day when they were younger and competing at higher levels and can extend a lot of wisdom and useful teaching/coaching in their next phase of life. Happens in many professions as well as firearms.
If a hater could see you walk on water, they'd say it's because you can't swim 😂
That’s sooo true
Lmao
This is the 6am new content i need
The mentality you are describing is everywhere expertise is required. The old guard stands ready to tear down what they don’t understand.
Never trust an instructor that won’t shoot a demo for you! 😁
And beyond the 3 yard line
Funny I trained with and instructor and asked this very same question and he responded: "Simple, you don't demonstrate anything. You are there to guide him and make HIM/SHE do the drill/shooting." Lost ALL respect right there and then. Got my certificate, though... 😅😒
@eduardogallardo9474 To be a devils advocate, sometimes actually taking up time doing live fire reps of a simple accuracy-only based standard can be more like showing off than actually giving benefit to a student.
@eduardogallardo9474 That instructor in your case though should have absolutely demoed because you needed it. You were questioning his teaching so he should have demonstrated what he can actually do.
The best instructors can not only make a demo of what you’re suppose to do, on demand, they can also make demos of several ways you’re gona fuck up the drill so you know what to look for
Speaking truth from the bathroom!! :)
This is exactly where I'm at and how I found your channel. I'm an instructor at my department but have never shot competitively. I've been shooting for a long time and do well on our courses, but I realized that even with a positive outcome the process to get there was very convoluted.
I have the desire to change our procedures for training not because I think I know better, but I want us all to do better and be better. This channels been a big help so far and I'm trying to get lined up to attend a class. A big thanks from the midwest
Problem is standards have been lowered to alarming levels. Candidates are difficult to find, guys pass because they can’t afford to lose them and the push for girl cops is strong. You go advancing the expectations and they will fail or get passed due to lowering the standards. The security companies are at zero for passing armed guards. As long as you don’t ND, you pass.
@HWG-wm8ld I've definitely seen the lowering standards over the last few years, and the application rate has dropped to almost nothing. Before we'd have 200 people show up to fill a hiring list of 20ish people. Now we just hire anyone with a pulse, push em to get the minimum qual score, and hope and pray they get better over time through the aforementioned convoluted training schemes
Well Steven, I’m not making excuses, I’m explaining what the problems are.
As an instructor I get so much resistance from the majority of incompetent instructors. They see it as s gravy government job, easy. (Many are also on the Brady Liat but not terminated.) I got into instructing out of frustration. I am NOT the best, but I am so much better than those clowns. I am also safer. I also treat others well and care so much to be a good example.
You would not believe the threats and resistance to people teaching well. One Police Officer attempted to stab me in class. He could not read, and he was upset that I would not pass him on the written test. His score was
He tried to stab you?
Come on dude. Cops are idiots, but to stab you….
Those damn stormtroopers
" Do me a favor, shoot the target next to you so I can get this guy out of here" LOL I have heard this more than once.
Wait.... Tried to STAB YOU?!? Was this during class or was this like off work hours? I'm very interested in hearing this story!
@@TerminalM193 Yeah I need to hear more about this potential stabbing lol @johnphillips222
Ben, I am one of those !!!... I am an instructor that does not shoot at a high level. I know my limits. I bring new shooters to the point they don't kill themselves or someone else. I "train proper use of a firearm, Firearm safety, proper stance (sort of ). I had a retired NYC cop bring his kid to my class to get his CCW QUAL. During the break he was asking me about training for competition. I told him there is nothing I could offer him at this point as I was also still learning . I have been shooting on an off for 40 years and I knowledge I can pass along that is valuable. I never trained for competition nor did I ever compete. But I don't leave my lane. I am also working to improve my level of training and take classes as often as possible. I stumbled upon you content and found your information was good and have been spending some time training (dryfire) on this information. I will be in one of your classes at some point when I can make schedule align with your training.
All am am saying is not every instructor needs to be at your level. As long as I am not going around on FB putting rubber bands and 5 gal buckets tied to ones arms and calling myself guru.... LOL
we all start somewhere!
At my agency all our hard skills are uspsa or competition based. Everything is scored using hit factor as well. Doubles, bill drills, etc.
Yeah uspsa is just like a 2 way gun battle
Moron
Just got into guns during the end of the pandemic. Probably only have a few months worth of experience on the range. Been watching so many CZcams videos instructors how to shoot control recoil and make follow-up shots while watching your videos have helped me diagnose what I’m doing wrong especially shooting my red dot. just went to the range this month and trade your method of training even blocked off my red dot and concentrated on a spot on the target. I was able to hit all in the A zone with rapidfire shots. Just want to say keep up the good work no instructor is putting content like this on CZcams
As a LEO, most of my fellow Instructors were barely adequate! I taught the TCOLE Instructor School for Texas a few years and most applicants could shoot a Qual COF but that was about it. I was about 3 years into my APD Range assignment when I realized I needed something more and turned to USPSA. Many of my cadre could shoot ONE target fairly well but shooting multiple targets was a slow process and moving was out of the question. The ones that could shoot well often didn't understand WHY. 🙄....When I made GM in Limited, I found some Instructors greatly intimidated by that status. In 2007 I won the Texas Limited Championship and came back to find a couple instructors who were SWAT guys who wouldn't talk to me and haven't since 2007! 😳.....When I go back yearly to do my LEOSA QUAL for retired guys, I get an audience when I pull out my 2" K frame....My EDC is a .45 ACP Staccato which I freely try to hand around but seldom get any takers. At APD and DHS, I always did a demo for the class but I'll have to admit, the DHS issued pistol was not a favorite with it's "LEM" trigger! 😡.......If you hand around the internet, you'll find a LOT of WANNABE Instructors with very little skill who charge money! They're easy to spot as their bio is usually written in "third person" and use words like "many", "more than", or "almost" and they refer to themselves as "we" when they are a one man show! If you can get them to post a video, its becomes very obvious who and what they are NOT! The few videos I post show ME AND THE TARGET for effect! And there are the "I practice for the REAL WORLD" crowd.....😁
The "instructor" thing is so very broad. Example, you can become an instructor to just teach fundamentals, you can become an instructor that only focuses on pistol, or rifle, etc. You can become an instructor to teach high level stuff, etc. Example, a brand new person who has never picked up a gun, should never spend $500 on say Ben Class, JJ Class, Mason Class, etc. Why?? Because it would be way to high level for them. This is where the introduction to handgun instructor would be handy.
But I totally get what Ben is saying, because being an instructor in the car racing world is the exact same thing. I'm a car racing instructor here in Texas that has one of the top 10 fastest times at Eagle Canyon Raceway and at Motor Sport Ranch, and you have so called instructors where their training won't take you to the next level, and its just good for the basics.
Im a bit torn on this. I am not sure an instructor or coach has to be the best shooter in a class, or able to demo high level shooting. I can see the point, but if you look at some other sports (football, F1 racing, track and field, UFC fighting etc.) the best coaches may have had some success in their career, but their ability to "see" skills and the gaps, and instruct and motivate others has proven to be a successful formula, vs. being able to be able to demo the skills to the folks they are instructing. Im conflicted by this. I think the issue is that shooting is a smaller sport, and maybe in order to cut out the bad instructors from the good instructors, the dividing line is the ability to demo what you teach has become the standard, but I propose that some day Ben will NOT be able to shoot or demo this, and he would still be an amazing instructor. What if Ben had an accident, and lost a finger or Arm. I'd still take a class from him. Those are my thoughts...
I love how you embraced being the controversial guy and turned this into a shitposting channel. You're still right, but the delivery is A+ for clowning on others.
You play for the rangers? Nolan Ryan is my cousin.
@@HWG-wm8ldNolan Ryan and Cal Ripken Jr were my role models while growing up!
@@HWG-wm8ld no, and it's not even a Chuck Norris reference. Back in the day we had accounts like Arizona Ranger, Texas Red or in my case Texas Ranger to make jokes below the Marty Robbins - Big Iron video. Before these F*#&%! turned off the comments section.
This is far from shitposting.
My first advanced instructor(lives here in AZ) said to our 3 person class “I can’t swim through the ocean, skydive or do 100 pushups like you, but I’ll shoot you.” He shot side by side with us all week. We knew he was the shit, but seeing it was inspiring. I learned the most from that week and made many visits back over 8 years. I’ve had plenty of other experiences that were great, maybe I just got along better with this guy.
Everyone loves Bens Toilet Talks!
There’s an old saying, “Those who can…… DO…….. Those who can’t……. TEACH!” Occasionally due to unforeseen circumstances, monetary incentives, or just a true love of passing on knowledge you will find someone that has or had the ability to perform at a high level that also has the gift of articulation. Likewise, there are a lot of extremely talented individuals that can’t articulate their message or make it palatable for the masses. I enjoy your shooting videos, but also the process you use in assessing new information and products. Best part, it’s free! Ordering all my firearm needs from the pro shop when I can as a way to say THANKS!
This is the video that got me to subscribe. 23 years as a cop and you are correct on all accounts. Sgt. Gun Guy hates to be challenged.
As he moved from 7 yards to 25 yards I watched an instructor tell his students to add some elevation because of the bullet drop.
😂😅😂😅
It's true with 900 grain bullets.
I love morning coffee with Ben.
The following is not written as a wholesale defense of "instructors that can't shoot." However. Coaches, more often than not, cannot perform at the level of their athletes. This does not make them poor coaches. No one expects the head football coach to be the best receiver on the field. By rule, a 10th degree blackbelt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu must be at least 82 years old. He or she is not going to be performing even to the level of a high level blue belt that is 60 years younger. That does not mean that the instructor cannot effectively instruct. Instruction is about knowledge transfer. An effective coach can correct technique, form, game strategy, etc; without having the physical ability to perform the tasks s/he asks of the athletes.
You make an excellent point, and that is part of the nuance around this whole issue. It also occurs to me that there are plenty of instructors who do a good job at teaching newbies who know their own limits and stay in their lane and aren't trying to teach what they don't know. I would say those are good instructors.
@haroldlee4037 I agree. My bowling coach no longer has the physical ability to roll the ball well. But he is such a student of the game that he can see someone bowl, and make suggestion(s) that help almost immediately.
It depends on if they are teaching a true knowledge base, meaning they truly understand the concepts and information they are teaching even if they can’t perform them or just regurgitating information from someone else’s studies. Most boxing, mma, nba & nfl coaches can’t or have never played at the level they are coaching at, doesn’t mean they don’t know what needs to be done to perform at high levels. Instructor Zero can perform all the silly shit he teaches doesn’t mean it is valid where as Cus D’Amato was a sought after boxing coach even though he never fought.
teaching things from an existing base of knowledge, without an analysis for a new audience, is just sophistry
You sir understand "learning" in any field, from sport to surgery, better than then most. Problem occurs when there are participants in a class with abilities from A to Z and the instructor tries to teach them all at the same time. Someone will be disappointed and their solution is to spout out something that has not been well investigated.
As an instructor who tries to expand and develop a program I appreciate your content
Ben's videos need more sipping beverage and gulping into the mic. 😂
You've added so much great content online lately. Keep up the great work.
As LE firearms instructor who you are probably talking about, I would agree with you. Just curious what skills a firearms instructor needs to have before you would say he can shoot. I mean compared to you and other high level performance instructors, we all suck. That said, I'm a B class skill level. I never have claimed to be a great shooter but I consider myself competent. Also, I have taken a couple of classes that taught more performance based shooting. While I enjoyed both and learned a lot, those really didn't translate to the reality of LE training. It goes back to the reason resetting the trigger in so indoctrinated in LE. You were absolutely correct that it will hinder a shooter who wants to get to a high level of performance. The reality is 90% of LE have no interest in shooting and getting better. Most never shoot unless made to and many wouldn't carry a gun is they didn't have to. I realized early on the reality of being an LE firearms instructor is I need to make terrible shooters mediocre, and mediocre shooters somewhat competent. I know that sounds bad, but that's the reality.
#this
Most LE I've taken to my private range couldn't hit sht past 10yds with a handgun, even 25yr SWAT veterans which I found VERY surprising.
I appreciate your thoughts, especially as a new guy to the pistol. There's so much to wade through and you have a great knack for cutting to the chase. Just got one of your Dry Fire books and am putting in my practice. Thank you!
The PGA of America has a player ability test which is a 36 hole event to make sure aspiring members to the PGA and graduates of the PGA Golf Managment program are able to at least play golf on a decent level. At least you know if someone you are taking golf lessons from is a PGA professional then they were able to do that at least at one point in their life.
Flight instructors must pass a written and practical exam with the FAA.
Maybe it's time for a shooting instructor standard so people at least know what they are paying for when signing up for a class?
Also, is it possible that LE instructors are not chosen by who would make a good instructor but rather who they helped get elected or who they are buddies with?
The instructor doesn’t have to be like the best of the best, but definitely have to be competent in shooting. I think Master and A rank shooters are a sign of someone who is able to shoot and have a good fundamentals to teach.
Oh boy this oughta be a good one.
Not sure if you already have a new sound setup or when this was recorded. But it is real quiet.
He's in a hotel bathroom sitting on the toilet it looks like.
@@OntarioBearHunter okay bathrooms don't have the worst acoustics. And he has a mic on. He wants feedback. I am giving it.
I'm already seeing other CZcams instructors adopting competition techniques but trying to make it sound like it came from a tactical background instead of "gamers".
I guarantee that in about 2-4 years you're going to have a bunch of them regurgitating what you've been teaching but they won't give you any credit.
Specifically:
Dot occlusion
Target focus 100% of the time
Doubles drills and explaining what the sights are doing
You were literally the FIRST one on the internets to really push these concepts and techniques. It's just a matter of time before they steal it and call it their own.
You say it takes time and I agree. But you know what's happening? Them dying off, literally. They're getting old and their inbred institutionalized dogma is slowly dying with them.. It's literally the next generation of younger, more savvy users who aren't fearful of new ideas and are more open to innovation that are going to change the culture.
IMO that's the demographic that's going to have the most impact on the sport.
Are you saying that some "Instructors" have "Zero" skill?!
This definitely a gap I’d like see bridged. I started shooting IDPA 6 years ago, I still do… however about 7-10 matches in, I had to make a decision. Was I in it to become GM / National Competitor material? Or was I in it to improve my overall skills for my conceal carry / protector goals… I chose the latter. I still shoot IDPA, and local club matches. Great reps… and it continues to drive home the importance of being capable. And that’s how I instruct now….
I once had an instructor use the excuse for why he couldn't shoot well "I'm just the instructor, I'm good at instructing not shooting"
Did you record this in the shitter?
Steve Anderson doesn't shoot, used to but he takes a lot of credit for being a great instructor.
Don’t forget about the instructors that live at the 7 yard line and do parlor tricks.
A what point does this break down? This is a dated reference but, can Tiger Wood's coach golf as well as Tiger can?
To add a thought to what you are saying, I have always been told that those that "can" do it are often not the best teachers, and the example that I will give is Chuck Liddell when he was in his prime in the UFC. He just had that something EXTRA on his punches that put guys out. You could not quantify it or explain it, and when he would try to teach other people/students how to do what he did, when he showed people how to do the exact same drills/training that he did, people could not replicate his results. To Chuck's mind, because of who he was and what natural/innate ability he had could not be taught to others, and thus, they reached a different result/conclusion than he did.
You see this often times in the NBA, where some of the best/star players make mediocre coaches, but the guy that maybe played D1 ball for four years at a small, midwest program and had no shot in the NBA turns out to be the best coach of all time.
I see your point, but here’s my perspective. Tiger woods was/is considered the best in the world at what he does.
Let’s entertain for discussions stake, that we’re talking about Americas elite HR team.
Both Tiger and the HR team didn’t learn everything they know from someone who was the best teacher in the world, what I mean is that they started out like everyone does, basic level instruction and from there, they increased skill and level of instruction.
We could argue that cops should be highly proficient in handgun shooting since it’s their primary weapon more often than not. Those cops also went through growth of skills and coaches. The problem is, most cops plateau in skill at a certain point unless they seek outside instruction or choose to learn on their own. Most department training heads are old dudes on their way “out”, who don’t care about the betterment of their students and would rather stick with what they know, than learn themselves and push that info onto their students. The other issue is the lowest common denominator, which is where the training can only be so challenging due to the lowest performer holding back the group. There’s more to it than just being good at shooting to be a good instructor, but as a baseline they should be proficient themselves, and be understanding of what is possible through training.
Another issue with the golf analogy is, anyone can google what a professional golfers handicap is, and understand what that means, and use that as their North Star with respect to training.
In shooting, much of that info is also available, but people won’t go through the trouble of understanding HF or time standards to have a bar that is set for them. Most of the lackluster trainers aren’t even aware of the performance possibilities that are common in today’s world of shooting because they are stuck teaching and doing what was “good” 20 years ago.
Red dots on pistols alone have allowed higher performance for most people across the board with minimal extra training, and the bar is continuing to climb higher each year.
Many seem to think that’s a shower curtain. I’m not convinced it isn’t a window curtain. There’s also a picture on the wall. That would be odd for a bathroom, wouldn’t it? I think he’s in a corner chair of… maybe a hotel?
An instructor teaches, they dont necessarily need to be a matksman to do that
Teaches the core fundamentals.
I can say i can outshoot many of the instructors at two local ranges, they are great instructors.
I think a lot of people have been showed a way. And they bought in and then don’t realize that they didn’t know what the didn’t know and get embarrassed. Egos get in the way. It’s a shame but very strong in LE world
Took a cqb class at my PD. Only demo the lead instructor did was 10 rounds in 10 minutes at 25 yards on a B8. Anything else was within the 5 yard line for demo. When i asked for demos i was told "we dont want students seeing us and trying to shoot at our level"
lol I have the exact opposite philosophy
The Haley episode was amazing
It's almost as if some people aren't listening, they're just waiting to talk. Weird.
I love when you gulp in my ear
Everyone wants to be the most important person in the room, when they bring their guns it can disintegrate into a real egotistical shtshw with some people.
You dont have to be a marksman to know how to be a good teacher and visa versa.
Its like a coach of an athlete, he doesnt have to be an olympian to qualify as a good coach.
Where I live in South Africa, the majority of intructors are ex military/police teaching tactical self defense stuff (we have a high violent crime rate) to people who are not proficient with pistols. So they just cover the basics of marksmanship, hammer on safety, and discuss principals of the defensive mindset. You always hear the instructor shout "front sight!" (Nobody puts dots on their carry guns) and "slow on the trigger!" when people are missing.
I always get funny looks when i tell people to be target focused, just hold the gun with your hands and let the rest of your body be relaxed, dont try muscle the gun or fight the recoil... some people just dismiss me as outright crazy.
All you describe happens, but teaching is a separate skill itself, so I would think very carefully of why I would dismiss an instructor.
Some friends and I discuss this all the time - how do you determine who a good instructor is. There are a lot of really good instructors out there, who may not be 'the best' at whatever skill/task (maybe they never were, maybe they aged a bit, etc), but they know enough to know good/bad, and they are capable of teaching it to people, etc. The Williams sisters had tennis coaches all throughout their careers - those coaches were not better tennis players.
Then you have the white-noise of 'tactical' people dismissing 'competitive' people, and of course the opposite happens.
And then the 'teachers' who are simply frauds, there is a local company, and the stuff they teach is downright dangerous...but they are dirt cheap, so they get a lot of volume. And most of their students don't know better.
So what is the unknowing person who wants to learn do? How can the 'unknowing' know who/what is good/bad - such a tough spot to be in.
In the late 90's as a "C" class shooter, I was shooting better than most LE and military instructors they sent us to. What level do you think is acceptable for a firearms instructor? I'm guessing the minimum should be "B" class. Thoughts?
Shooting is a perishable skill. Being an instructor myself I try to take a minimum of 2 classes a year with other instructors. I shoot weekly and dryfire almost daily. I demo for my students. I cant expect my students to do something I am incapable of doing, nor can I teach/coach them to get better if I am unable to do so.
You’re talking about the driver’s ed teachers of the gun world.
This is a human condition and any authority is not liked. That’s why you must read your Bible and put those thoughts aside. Once you let go of the authority issue everything comes way easier especially listening to others advice or teaching. Another great video Mr. Stoeger! Please keep it up!
I will bring a different perspective into your discussion, being a retired professor who went to school to learn how to teach, and my new profession is firearms related, my observation so far is that every firearms instructor I have seen in firearms classes have no clue on how to teach.
You have to be extremely selective with where you go for a class or clinic. This applies with any skill or discipline. I noticed this very early on in weightlifting classes, and then shooting classes. There's too many people holding on to obsolete ideas and are unwilling to explore different training options. People stuck in their ways have inflated egos and are insecure.
Recorded it this morning it’s coming
Man...I've literally heard ALL OF THIS
Red shirts. All like that.
I could never be an instructor. The way the internet is I don't know if I could handle all the misinformation students are getting combined with all the hypothetical scenarios people want training for...
I never had a “class” from an IALEFI-certified instructor that didn’t feel partially lobotomized. I have heard “slow down and get your hits” and “you want to spread your bullets out so you do more damage” more times than is reasonable.
Agencies would be better off having the local B-class heat come train.
My sister’s department is near JJ’s home; their redshirts take a class with him on what seems like an annual basis. There’s a lot of social pressure at her department towards fitness and competition skills.
Video idea: Slide stop override and grip.
I have a high support hand grip and often don’t get last round hold open. On my Gen 5 Glock I cut the left side of the slide stop off. Now I always get slide lock, but reloads are too slow with the sling shot method. Thoughts?
I've got this same problem. I get last round hold open maybe 20% of the time
Easy fix, never shoot the gun empty
It depends on what you mean by "can't shoot," I think. In another world, I used to tudor young racing drivers. I've got a lot of experience, but never quite had the basic neurological advantages that truly great drivers have. In a sense, I "can't drive." I'll never be a pro behind the wheel. But I can teach beginners who do have that talent. Most of them end up better than me -- sometimes by a lot.
You can be bad because your fundamentals are bad, and you'd be a bad teacher, but I think you can also be bad because you're old and always had an essential tremor or something.
And some instructors just want to flex their Rolex’s and Mercedes and shoot with rubber bands all over them
Advice for small fish in an even smaller pond?
I’m not good. But where I practice due to where I live is maxed out at an indoor range. I’m not beneath instruction. Finding someone to get instruction from is hard because of the usuals that go they ask for advice and not the other way around.
Once you start getting ok at shooting I think it’s gets to your head. But now to get better you need to find someone with a proven track record and they don’t grow on trees.
This battle has been going on forever.... "A friend" was a B level in the 90's and Instructor for their Dept. Had to fight to bring in Isosceles stance and modern grip. They had been teaching Weaver.... Cops are like everyone else, they have FUD's and sometimes they are on range staff. 😂
Lots and lots of the greatest coaches in all different sports were mediocre players at best. Bill Belichick. Sir Alex Ferguson. Scotty Bowman. And some of the greatest athletes in history fail as coaches - Wayne Gretzky for example. Being able to do something and teaching someone how to do it are two different skill sets.
Thats the issue with law enforcement. I shoot with my county sheriff's dept at times and they are slow to accept uncomfortable training methods. They hate doubles where I'm at too, even if it will help them overall.
It's uncanny how you nail everything to the tee. Everyone wants to be an instructor it seems. The best tactical gurus I ever met or trained under were also competitors at master level. I know so many dozens of instructors that can't teach, coach or demonstrate beyond intermediate level. I find that even beginner shooters can learn better from a master level instructor. It prevents them from programming a bunch of garbage. Oh, slow and smooth does NOT equal fast. Smooth flowing efficiency does. Great content, I've never seen you say anything wrong. I steal some of the ways you communicate ideas I have. I dare someone to go force on force with you.
Hey Ben how much do you think shooting different handguns will impede progress for a beginner? Should I stick with 1 gun?
Seeing that things are fucked up is where I’m at right now. However my sphere of influence has been greatly reduced so I’m left sending videos to a friend who can pass it on or just ranting to my girlfriend…
I big part of LE and military training that hampers it is the motivation level of the students. A lot of them just don't really give a shit enough to put in the work to really get proficient. All small percentage of cops and troops and troops actually enjoy it and those are the guys that will train on their own time and their own dime away from their own agencies. The agency instructors get grumpy and closed minded a lot of times because they have to teach to their audience. There are some poor shooters in LE but I've personally never seen an officer fired for failing a qualification outside the basic academy training
Best instructor I've had was a competent and serious shooter, but not fantastic. She (yes, she) had zero ego and was able to observe students and focus on their needs, and scale the difficulty up or down depending on size of class and/or student abilities. She would demonstrate, but not show off, as I've seen male instructors do. On the other hand, there are some very high-level competition shooters that are horrible instructors. Coaching and competing are VERY different pursuits.
... and then some instructors will tea-bag you in the middle of a class. Centrifical reinforcement, I guess.
Whenever I’m presented with a novel concept that contradicts orthodoxy, the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the presenter to make the case for his position. I’m not closed to new ideas or methods but they must be validated before they displace established, tested and proven methods. I recall just a few years ago a training company that was trying to convince everyone to abandon “target focus” and “front sight focus” in favor of “rear sight focus”. It ended up that the guys selling this snake oil (a couple of morbidly obese middle aged guys who’d never seen action outside the flat range) were just trying to carve out an identity through novelty rather than earn distinction through excellence. They actually managed to get a little traction with a few popular CZcamsrs picking up their talking points and giving positive reviews to their classes.
Do you focus on the spot on target when shooting irons as well?
I'm not sure people understand that every day in CAG is a competition. If it helps those dudes it can help anyone else.
Ben…were you taking a poo while recording this?
but those instructors beat easily you in mindset, footwork, operating and high mounts
As Greg Gutfeld says " People are Stupid" 🤣
He an instructor?
😂😂😂😂
Ben, that stuff will get you killed on the street. ;-)
I did shooting range instructor.. operative instructor.. law enforcement instructor and idpa ipsc sort of instructor.. . The two world (law enforcement and shooting competition) are two different world.. yuo have to understand to who your information are addressed... the two kinda Guy are similar but not equal .. what will work for one maybe it is not the best for the other... There's some area where the two world intersect.. you keep in mind this and you're good to go.. better if you can really shoot well in the shooting range in both ..
ahhh....modern samurai 😝
It depends upon your mission. Games are not gunfighting
It’s not how fast you shoot as much as it is how fast can you decide to shoot. Observe, Orient, Decide and Act. If that protocol is not efficiently applied it doesn’t matter how fast you shoot. You can never make up that time. I’m not saying that good shooting is not important. As Cooper said a long time ago, it’s a triad of Marksmanship, Tactics and Mind Set. One without the others will get you dead.
What would be a relevant minimum performance standard for firearm instructors to teach "basics" at the local level?
The NRA (laugh) has a test, similar to 16 of 20 shots inside a 6" circle at 15 yard, slow fire unsupported.
I am nit as good as Ben, nor do I make claims like that. When I shot my qual, I got 20/20 within a 3-1/2"' circle with a G19. My wife got 20/20 within a 2-1/2" circle. I am proud of her. Our cadences were 0.5 second par times. My B8 scores are in the low ro mid-90"s with my everyday carry gun.
I am NOT saying that marksmanship makes a good instructor. It is one of many skills that are needed. This is just something that is quick and easy to measure.
Here is the kicker. I have NEVER come across a law enforcement "instructor" that does better than me (and I am NOT that good). I have been "training" instructors at the entry level for over a decade. Maybe 5% of the current police instructors can pass the NRA test. Maybe 20% of the civilian instructors can pass. I have come across 3 police instructors that got 20/20, 2 were Air Marshals. I had a dozen civilians get 20/20.
An audit was done, and less than 20% of the Training Counselors could pass the basic trest, 16/20 inside a 6" circle at 15 yard. I am NOT the best. I always get 20/20 from a cold gun (no practice)
I ran a test with a class of 16 police instructors on B8 targets at 25 yard. Every single police instructor got 0-0X, every single one. My score was 94-3X. That is not magic, but at least I can hit a target at a cadence of 1 shot per second.
There are then many more skills I have to do and teach beyond marksmanship. At least I try to be competenr.
If I may, to answer your question (which you kind of did already with what your stated after your question) is to be able to show everything you demand of your students regarding actually shooting. But if you really want to take it to the next level, shoot dynamically, a.k.a., Practical Shooting. Whether USPSA, IPSC or even IDPA.
I also believe shooting SOME drills (some well known) to evaluate certain skills and techniques is very valuable as the student (and the instructor) would now have a base on where they stand and work on getting better with a specified measurable criteria (such as time, accuracy, distance).
🤘🇧🇻
wanna learn how to shoot?
find a USPSA GM who can teach
I love the Shit posting from the Shitter. Classic act! How do you judge skill and assess people where they are?
I don't generally take advice from people who cant beat me in any sport .... Granted things change, but then you should be able to implement those changes with good effect...
The coach is not necessarily better at the sport than the pupil...but may have a wealth of knowledge and experience to teach, other than being great at teaching and conveying info in an understandable way. Having a keen eye to recognize errors/mistakes/ineficiencies to teach and correct them is a criteria in an instructor's toolbox in by itself, and not all coaches/instructors possess this. Like lots of people have stated, you may be great at something but suck at teaching and vice versa. Obviously you can be good at both. Recognizing your own level and being humble/honest about it, in my opinion, is key to building a trusting relationship with the student: "I can only get you so far/I can only teach you so much.". Sorry, I piggybacked on your comment to put my two cents on the matter.
Teaching is a separate skill in itself.
The hardcore 2a group can be a bit much with their BS,
Are you on the toilet?
Yes I am. Oh did you mean Ben? Also yes.
So many people are just completely closed minded morons. It’s really as simple as that. Not just with shooting, but most things in life. Why dismiss someone that can shoot at a high level just because they shoot competitively? You can learn from anyone that is proficient in what they do. I guess their problem is they are not intelligent enough to take those techniques and tips and learn to apply it to their own application. I’ve never even been to a competition to watch, yet I have improved my shooting just from watching and paying attention to your videos.
IZ is a zero... unfollowed him since his childish outburst on FB yesterday...
damn bro actually talking hella shit today. Based on what you say here I can tell you would judge the ever loving shit out of me, but I guarantee you'd be doing yourself a disservice by not hearing my lesson just because of a couple of your OWN preconceptions about what things "should" be like. In just one of your other videos you talk about doing what works, well that applies to language and methodologies too, not just how we specifically grip a pistol. People from many walks of life have different cause and different perspectives about how to approach problems, thinking to yourself "this guy can't shoot" after only initial observations is a dangerous level of ignorance to practice.
There are also instructors who are excellent shooters but are shit coaches.
The audio is a bit lower than the other videos my friend