Thanks for this update video Ryan. Like you, I'm very pleased with Greg's response to this issue. I think they have a crazy amount of work ahead of them to deal with all the various scenarios for each builder. But, I'm confident they will do the right thing by us. I think it will lead to some significant delays but I'm going to try to remain patient as Vans executes their plan. I know you have some tough decisions to make with your build. I wish you all the best and look forward to more of your build videos.
Agree with your take. I will likely fly mine with affected QB flaps and ailerons and replace after a year or two. I personally am not too worried about structural failure if testing shows this not to be an issue, but will replace for resale value and long term (20 year, 4,000 hour) fatigue safety protection.
Long ago, (1990) Fokker Aircraft in NL investigated lasercutting of parts, especially rivet holes. It looked very economic. Sectioning the holes, and microscoping them, showed extensive heat affected zones around the holes. This was the method to ruin the tuned properties of the aluminium in a zone of say maximum 1 mm from the edge. Fokker rejected the laser cutting, and investigated water cutting. So what, 1 mm would you say ? Once a small fatique crack is there, is developed, the total fatigue life is used for 90% and 10% is left over. (Ask every fatique specialist over the world to confirm.) The proper method is: drill pilot hole. drill to larger diameter with sharp dril. Debur. Ream if necessary. Place corrosion inhibiter. Place rivet. Reaming is benificial. Very small cracks of 0,1 mm in the hole-edge by the drilling are removed and the fatigue life becomes still longer.
I would suggest you open up the holes to remove all crack indications. That will also remove lazer cut material property changes. Install oversized rivets and shave the heads.
Not a bad idea, unfortunately on a lot of the flanges, moving to a 1/8" shank rivet would put me beyond edge distance limitations.. I might just have to wait for replacement parts on a lot of these
IMHO (not a structural engineer), this laser cut fiasco is much more of a PR mess than a structural problem with the airplane. One crack in a dimple on one flange won't have much if any relative motion that would cause a real crack to develop. These parts are over designed for the amateur builder and will be fine for thousands of hours of flight. I agree that on flight controls, this is not a good place to have any cracks. Just read the recent SB's from Van's on the control hinge areas.
Correct, you're NOT a structural engineer, so don't comment on things you don't know about that can get people killed. Cracks are bad, and you don't know where they are going to happen. literally any rivet is suspect, and enough of them in the wrong places will be fatal.
@@RyanE67 Thanks for all you're doing to bring this to everyone's attention. I feel for you having to take so many steps back. I'd be so un-happy if we had to go that far back considering how much we have together now.
@@RyanE67 I’ve checked over the tail kit well. Even put a bore scope inside to look. But out tail kit was all Blue covering. The QB Wings. Haven’t checked yet. We haven’t touched them since they arrived. About to pivot to them shortly after OSH this year. Will you be at OSH?
Curious, how do you know which parts carry more load and which carry less (you mention seat ribs vs bulkheads, for example)? This is kind of information I wish I had available as a builder: some structural engineering in layman's terms.
It's more analysis and intuition on my part, I'm not a structural engineer by any means but thinking about where loads are imparted in normal flight (spars) and how those forces are distributed to the connected parts(or not)
@@SooperToober One definitely doesn't need to be an engineer... I'm building a Cozy from plans rather than a Vans kit, however I assume that the Vans instructions also start out with some practice parts. Alternatively, EAA offers workshops for prospective builders that might be worth checking out!
Passion for process is not good enough- not going through with my 7A kit purchase - this was my dream build. Van’s is acting like a 50 year old start up. This is a joke!
Thanks for this update video Ryan. Like you, I'm very pleased with Greg's response to this issue. I think they have a crazy amount of work ahead of them to deal with all the various scenarios for each builder. But, I'm confident they will do the right thing by us. I think it will lead to some significant delays but I'm going to try to remain patient as Vans executes their plan. I know you have some tough decisions to make with your build. I wish you all the best and look forward to more of your build videos.
Agree with your take. I will likely fly mine with affected QB flaps and ailerons and replace after a year or two. I personally am not too worried about structural failure if testing shows this not to be an issue, but will replace for resale value and long term (20 year, 4,000 hour) fatigue safety protection.
Long ago, (1990) Fokker Aircraft in NL investigated lasercutting of parts, especially rivet holes. It looked very economic.
Sectioning the holes, and microscoping them, showed extensive heat affected zones around the holes. This was the method to ruin the tuned properties of the aluminium in a zone of say maximum 1 mm from the edge. Fokker rejected the laser cutting, and investigated water cutting.
So what, 1 mm would you say ?
Once a small fatique crack is there, is developed, the total fatigue life is used for 90% and 10% is left over. (Ask every fatique specialist over the world to confirm.)
The proper method is: drill pilot hole. drill to larger diameter with sharp dril. Debur. Ream if necessary. Place corrosion inhibiter. Place rivet.
Reaming is benificial. Very small cracks of 0,1 mm in the hole-edge by the drilling are removed and the fatigue life becomes still longer.
I would suggest you open up the holes to remove all crack indications. That will also remove lazer cut material property changes. Install oversized rivets and shave the heads.
Not a bad idea, unfortunately on a lot of the flanges, moving to a 1/8" shank rivet would put me beyond edge distance limitations.. I might just have to wait for replacement parts on a lot of these
This isn’t what they told me when I inquired about ordering a kit a few weeks ago.
It costs enough they just announced kit price increases, amount tbd.
IMHO (not a structural engineer), this laser cut fiasco is much more of a PR mess than a structural problem with the airplane. One crack in a dimple on one flange won't have much if any relative motion that would cause a real crack to develop. These parts are over designed for the amateur builder and will be fine for thousands of hours of flight. I agree that on flight controls, this is not a good place to have any cracks. Just read the recent SB's from Van's on the control hinge areas.
Correct, you're NOT a structural engineer, so don't comment on things you don't know about that can get people killed. Cracks are bad, and you don't know where they are going to happen. literally any rivet is suspect, and enough of them in the wrong places will be fatal.
Does the blue covering mean it was punched? I didn't know the laser had a different coloring? What color is the laser parts covered in?
The blue vinyl parts are punched. Parts not covered in blue vinyl could be either laser cut or punched. Once assembled it'll be hard to tell though
@@RyanE67 Thanks for all you're doing to bring this to everyone's attention. I feel for you having to take so many steps back. I'd be so un-happy if we had to go that far back considering how much we have together now.
@@N14VE I hope your quick build wings and all of your tail are not affected... But you guys might be in that timeframe
@@RyanE67 I’ve checked over the tail kit well. Even put a bore scope inside to look. But out tail kit was all Blue covering.
The QB Wings. Haven’t checked yet. We haven’t touched them since they arrived. About to pivot to them shortly after OSH this year.
Will you be at OSH?
@@N14VE I'll be there but not arriving until Wednesday so I'll miss the -14 lunch sadly
Bottom line, Van's is going to have to bail on laser cutting of parts. The WWII B-17 approach to fabrication has a long and established track record.
Curious, how do you know which parts carry more load and which carry less (you mention seat ribs vs bulkheads, for example)?
This is kind of information I wish I had available as a builder: some structural engineering in layman's terms.
It's more analysis and intuition on my part, I'm not a structural engineer by any means but thinking about where loads are imparted in normal flight (spars) and how those forces are distributed to the connected parts(or not)
Just curious if you have a background in structural engineering?
I’m wondering if I should even take on a kit built or does one need some engineering background? Just curious- I have none
@@SooperToober One definitely doesn't need to be an engineer... I'm building a Cozy from plans rather than a Vans kit, however I assume that the Vans instructions also start out with some practice parts. Alternatively, EAA offers workshops for prospective builders that might be worth checking out!
Passion for process is not good enough- not going through with my 7A kit purchase - this was my dream build. Van’s is acting like a 50 year old start up. This is a joke!
I'm sorry you feel that way, but everyone must make their own decisions, especially when you're the builder of an EAB.
Vans is a 50 year old start up.
Richard Van Whatsoever sold a controlling interest in his business to his employees.