When Your Commander is Also Your Win Condition | EDHRECast 230
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- čas přidán 15. 09. 2022
- Some commanders are just value engines, but some are the deck's ultimate payoff! How do you change your deckbuilding when your commander is vital to the deck's endgame?
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I just started binge watching your channel and have to say that I am very impressed. I have been playing Commander for several years now, but since I have started watching your channel, I have learned quite a bit about decks, card abilities, synergies and budget alternatives. Keep up the great work!
I agree with the tribal commentary. My mono black vampire deck has 18 different legends in it, and I always choose a random one to lead. Which one does not matter much, and I can often pick more specifically to raise or lower the power level. It's a fun deck either way!
Hearing you guys talk about “backup commanders” during the Rafiq section makes me SO happy, because while Rafiq is definitely capable of one shotting fools, I think players fall into a pitfall where they are so blind to the fact that three other players oftwn want Rafiq dead so you ahould be prepared for alternate gameplans.
Running stuff like Nazahn (the Artificer not the hammer, though both are great), anti sac Sigarda, Halvar, or other just big ass scary creatures is a great way to both take pressure off of Rafiq AND give you alternate gameplans. A table will not survive a Nazahn with a Sword of Hearth and Home for very long. A table will not be able to outlast an Ojutai drawing me a crap ton of cards each turn by utilizing Rafiq’s effect- finding ways to utilize Rafiq as a support piece AND a wincon is so important to not only just interacting with a table but also the neo politics of the game itself.
or u could build like my one friend that no matter the colors he just ramps constantly so we killed rafiq 9 times and he could still cast it
My Rafiq deck is my oldest commander deck and at one point i was debating taking the deck apart because everyone knew to just kill rafiq, Eventually one game i got avacyn into play then cast rafiq and smacked a player for 18 with avacyn and i was like "Oh he is an enchantment effect on a body that can sometimes one shot folks but i can also just give my other big creatures double strike and do it that way too." Changing my way of thinking with him that way mad ehim start winning again because any big creature I played was a potential big threat on board.
I always shy away from running "backup commanders" in decks that need the commander to win because I'd rather just focus on keeping my commander alive, especially in voltron. Why run a big expensive creature that can't deal commander damage when I could instead run a card like Loran's Escape or Slip Out The Back and keep the card that actually does commander damage in play.
a cool topic would be "protection vs recursion" keeping your cards on the board
protecting your things from interaction vs
letting your things die for you to be cast again/reanimated
This 🎯 I feel like people are MORE scared when a commander has protection, recurring it after it dies incidentally is way easier
In regards to the deck building openings of starting based off your commander, or starting based on a theme, I’ve done both and found enjoyment in both ways.
My Rafiq deck has never been about attacking with the commander. I consider him a pump for whatever sworded-up creature (Hydra Omnivore and friends) is doing the attacking, and a way to re-trigger things. I usually wait to drop Rafiq until the endgame - or if I'm having bad luck and not drawing other creatures to slap equipment on.
This is a strategy i had to figure out eventually myself, almost took my rafiwqdeck apart because everyone just figured out to hold up removal for him, then i dropped a big creature and used him to pump the creature with aura's (hydra omnivore being one of many targets) and that all stopped.
Thanks for articulating the arguments for and against redundancy effects in deckbuilding.
I've played Zirilan-of-the-Claw for years. Over time I've tried cards like Sneak Attack, Feldon, Purphoros Bronze Blooded, etc as redundancies to my commander when they inevitably get commander taxed out of the game. When a new option gets printed I typically make some minor tweaks to my deck to test it and ask myself stuff like: am I running enough draw to find dragons to Sneak Attack? Do I run enough sac outlets to value Feldon recursion?
Mono-red doesn't offer too many options to cheat casting cost like Zirilan, nor does it offer much protection beyond Lightning Greaves and Co so at least the redundancy/protection package doesn't chew up too much of the deck.
Zirilan has probably been one of my most fun decks. And yeah, the mono-red color identity does lock you out of some stuff that would be really useful. It's not always possible to gauge when you need to be wary of deploying Doctor Claw too early and when it's safe to leave him on the field and let the turn cycle come back around to you. Some things that helped me, which you might have already noticed anyway...
-Get Anger in your graveyard. Sneak Attack it out or dump it with Faithless Looting or even Gamble for it. But once Anger is in your graveyard, your commander can get value even if he doesn't survive. Fervor was my backup source for universal haste
-Hoarding Dragon needs to die in order for its ability to work properly, which Zirilan alone isn't great for. But the card is worth it because you can find a Zirilan-protecting piece like Lightning Greaves or something like Belbe's Portal. It can also find Ashnod's Altar, for if you want to get Zirilan set up later without exiling all your dragons. I even ran Soldevi Digger, so I could keep putting key dragons back into my library for my commander to fetch again.
-Cold Storage can be used to either save dragons from being exiled by your commander or to protect your commander from removal. If you have the mana available, it can even serve both roles simultaneously.
-Safe Haven is another easy way to save your dragons. In a pinch it could be used on your commander, but that's risky and I never did so myself.
Wincon commanders are my favorite. I have several Voltron decks and my most recent deck, Jetmir, is my favorite one so far
How much protection do you run for Jetmir?
@@laurainthesky3765 Everything in my 99 ramps, draws cards, or gets me to 9+ creatures. Grand crescendo is in the deck and it is protection, but that's the only thing. Jetmir is fast enough where it can get under most control decks, so I just built it to be as fast as possible.
Dana, you would be proud. I have an Izzet voltron deck, Esior/Kediss, which is brutal. I skipped the auto equip of white for the double damage of red. BRUTAL.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon :)
Having played alot of "commander matters to win" especially with jarad golgari lich. Ive learnt alot trying to play this deck. He hits three players in one for s potential 3in1 win. But timing is key cause playing him out and using him once makes people realize how much a threat he is. So it most definitely changed the build around as now I'm less big things and more drain effects and jarad as the finisher. But protections and redundancy are key. If you fall into the habit of being hated of board immediately.
I also play him and learned the same thing! Timing on casting him is key
@@Valkyrou yaasss! Glad to see there's more lich lords out there. Tis a hard life for an undead elf.
Lol it's hard to have him keep up with the meta, but it's possible! Look for Wall of Blood and Phyrexian Devourer for power upgrades. I'll also found cards like Pattern of Rebirth and Natural Order being essential for keeping up with current decks
Im at all a big fan of having different options how your deck plays out or better said end the game.
my newest deck with bealoth barrityl (+noble heritage) has so many options:
- goad
- commander damage
- life of the party
- flying dragons
- pin for etb creatures
- pin for etb creatures on my side (atm not in but hey its an option if something else gets boring)
- go wide
- bedlam (no more blocks)
- go tall
and all this works cause the idea is to fload everyones board xD
so he is part of a wincon, but also protection (cause goad and protection thanks to noble heritage)
As a jetmir player i can tell you jetmir is the definition of a wincon in the command zone. Having a 4 mana craterhoof behemoth in the command zone is definitely really good.
I like the talk about having multiple effects in the deck that do essentially what your commander does. For example, if you are playing Prime Speaker Zegana, is there a need for Rishkar's Expertise or Return of the Wildspeaker? So true with many decks.
One of the first things I learned when going from making cardpiles to making decks is the difference between having the commander be part of A win condition and having it be part of THE win condition. The former is good, it’s a component of a win that can’t be permanently removed and your opponent can’t count out. The latter is terrible, because any functional deck has options for anti-commander play and can see your win component coming in advance.
Glad to see terrain generator on challenge the stats. I use it in all my Non Green EDH decks for over a decade. Also love turn one terrain generator, Sol Ring, Signet in a non Green deck.
Hmm I'd like to hear about commanders like sissay/osgir/syr konrad and how would a good backup engine work for those
Love my juri deck. I built in extra win cons just because a few early removals can handcuff him. Threw in the "stations" combo and even a few of the parts help juri get to the end if he is out. Win con that helps the theme.
One of my favorite decks is my Drana 1.0 tribal vampire deck because it's really good at a 2 pronged assault without diluting either strategy. Drana as commander has a pump ability that can 1 shot someone if you hit 19 mana. It's mono black so it makes big mana by default. I use that big mana to flood the board with vampires and refill my hand with black's card draw. Drana is scary among them even if she isnt 1 shotting and benefits all the vampire synergy in the deck as well. The deck can function without her but the vampires are an engine and wincon by themselves. She's just always there ready to swoop in and be the scariest thing on the table while commanding her army and I LOVE that. Really feels like what a commander should be to me.
Excellent description of the difference between whether the Cok
A few years back I read a post on MTG Nexus from “Dirk Gently” on building a Phelddagrif deck with no win condition OTHER than Commander damage. No idea if the deck was any good or not, but simply considering the curious way Mr. Gently built his deck has really broadened my EDH perspective.
Excellent convo, gentlemen.
Woodfall Baloth of Zendikar needs to be a new card.
My way of designing decks has been a lot different, arguably hell.
I try to treat my commander as just one of the 99, but also in a way that it adds something no other card can to the decks strategy.
For instance, i have a "Lich's Spellbook" deck running Codie and TONS of artifacts, using my own instans and lands to blow up codie to my grave or hand to recast for his mana buff.
Having him in the command zone only means i never have to worry about drawing him.
Arguably, something like morophon might go where codie is, since i run a few walls too, but morophon completely changes the feel of how i play simply with its inclusion.
Brew weird and weird things happen.
My Mahadi and my Child of Alara deck that I'm working on both explicitly are designed where the commander is just someone to stand off to the side and watch while the rest of the deck works it's magic. Literally have no actual bearing on how the deck plays.
Nekusar is built around him, but can function with many other creatures that do exactly the same effect that are in the deck.
Aurelia is built all around her though. All combat, all the time.
Having a contingency plan for your commander is getting a bit easier with each new set. For well-worn strategies like Equipment or Tribal, there are plenty of legendary creatures that also support your strategy, regardless of whether they're leading it, or in the 99. You can essentially add "extra commanders" to your deck that work with your general strategy, while taking heat off of the commander themselves.
I have two decks that would fall under this topic.
My first one is Karona, False God, which is a Voltron build. I protect her using certain auras and equipment to stop her from being targeted that relies on some of the fringe rules printed on them. I have an Assault Suit to stop her from being sacrificed by an opponent and it can also suit up Rafiq, who is the backup for the deck. If she gets going, she can be oppressive, but if disrupted early, it’s a large hill to try and climb back.
The other is my latest deck, Kelsien. I really wanted to build a commander centric deck and he really fits the bill. Again, I’m relying on some fringe rules to make him viable and that dictated the course of the build. I specifically want him to be targeted because I use blink/flicker spells to fizzle the targeting AND reset him to use his ability again. If I can’t fizzle the kill spell, I use something like Demonic Gifts, the only spell of that type that returns the target back to the battlefield untapped.
I've built nearly all my decks to function with or without the commander. Halvar, for example, wins through combat; I can do that without casting him, he just makes it easier.
> Red Herring/Trojan Horse
My Squee (the Immortal) junkyard brew very much likely should be a Daretti (Scrap Savant) deck, but I built it to work as a red goodstuff brew with access to mountains matter and artifacts matter cards. Also, Squee can get skullclamped, then get cast from the graveyard to get clamped again.
> Engine, not the endgame
My Triad of Fates constellation and curses brew has the legendary human wizard trio work with blinking creatures, but eventually, I have other blink and enchantment recursion to pile on the negative/beneficial effects.
> Plan B
Kazarov (Sengir Pureblood) and other battlecruiser legends of 7 mana value or higher can have decks built around them, but the 99/98 tends to need backup strategies, especially when other decks are going off earlier.
> Engine and endgame
Nekusar, Wheel of Fortune + Reverberate + Tainted Strike.
I tend to keep away from boots and greaves in most of my decks, my commanders tend to be value pieces so I can bank on it not being the threat, flying under the radar takes up no deck slots. Opponents are less worried about your creature if there’s nothing stopping them from removing it.
I do have them in Arden Rog I believe though.
My personal favorite deck for this problem is my Extus deck. My deck is designed as a vanilla aristocrats deck with a focus on Extus. My deck leans into Magecraft as a subtheme to keep recurring creatures with Extus. Usually I can win without Extus. However.... My deck is specifically built to have a backup win condition as the backside of Extus. Late game if I play a huge token gen spell like secure the wastes, I can then sac Extus to then play a bunch of Blood Avatars to win.
In this case my commander is both a value piece or a backup wincon depending on the game. The real win con is blood artist/Zulaport/etc. I love the variety this deck gives for what is at first glance a basic Aristocrats deck
55:24 oh dang! I always thought it was "Beantown". Probably because I'm a masshole myself 😅
I come for the puns and stay for the magic 😂
Possible Challenge the Stats:
Horizon Chimaera in Shanna, Purifying Blade.
Both Chimaera and Drogskol Reaver rank highly on her page. The problem? if you have both in play and either draw a card or gain life, you'll deck yourself. Neither is a "may" ability.
Each card supports Shanna's strategy well, but instantly decking yourself if both are in play seems . . .suboptimal.
Of course, you could run ThOracle in the deck, but that card isn't really showing up in early Shanna lists.
You could remove Reaver instead, but I think Reaver offers so much more upside.
Challenge the stats, I'd like to challenge the stats of Mocking Doppelganger. At the time of this post, it is in 1782 decks. 1% of 261073 decks. Chances are in commander, one of your opponents will have a big or semi-big creature where you say to yourself, "That is scary good, so I'll make a copy of it, while at the same time, goading theirs so it can't attack me!" It says you choose to have the copy enter the battlefield as the copy, so it can really be good on any creature that has a decent ETB effect. At 4 cmc, it can fit in to most any deck running blue.
Also there is Abundance. At the time of this post, it is in 21255 decks. 3% of 742961 decks. This is card selection, which could be a lot better than card draw. It is a green spell, and green does have a lot of land ramp. If you have a lot of lands and you don't need more, rather than drawing and having a decent chance to get a land, but you already have 12+ lands, you can choose non-land rather than drawing, putting any land cards you turn over, to the bottom of your deck, ensuring you don't get flooded. And it can work the other way, where if you are getting kind of screwed and not getting a lot of lands, this will ensure you get your land for the turn. At 4 cmc, it can fit well in to most any deck running green.
My lgs is generally pretty focused on the commander’s being the central part of the deck so I’ve been using a lot more spot removal lately
I feel much the same as Dana. I don't want the deck to totally revolve around my commander. I don't want my opponent to see the wincon and anticipate it, I would rather have it come from hand.
Balan "vacuum cat" and Kaldra Compleat are my favorite sub Voltron commanders for my Zurgo deck
Hey Joey, I'd love to build an Eligeth deck! And decklists or pointers you could give?
We always link our decklist page in the description :) Here it is for convenience, hope it helps! :D
edhrec.com/articles/edhrecast-our-decks/
@@EDHRECast Awesome--thanks!!
The Caberetti (Naya) token commanders from SNC are pretty interchangeable (Jinnie Fae, Jetmir, Phabe, Kitt Kanto). As long as you're pumping out tokens you'll be fine 😅
I'm really surprised to not see "half-combo commanders" mentioned like Heliod Sun Crowned (with Walking Ballista), although Syr Konrad (with Mindcrank) came to mind. Or Vito + Exquisite Blood. Those come to my mind as really "kill on sight" type commanders. One commander value engines that have become "must remove" in my book are Chulane, Alaundo The Seer, Ivy, and Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm. Those are the "value engine" centric commanders that if you don't kill them fast and you think you're just going to durdle your way into a win while they're steady outvaluing you. Some of those you think "Oh I'll just wait until X moment they are about to win and stop it". I was playing against an Aluando deck that nobody was doing anything about, and eventually he got Seedborn Muse AND Murkfield Leige out, double untapping every turn, there was no time to stop it at that point. My friend plays Chulane but I've realized you have to shut down Chulane early or you will never outvalue the deck unless you're just strictly combo winning (and that's hoping the Chulane player hasn't drawn into Fierce Guardianship or even a regular Counterspell).
Here for the opening music
fling would actually be great in juri because there'd be two triggers to deal damage
Would Krenko fit this category? My deck wouldn't do anything, if I don't have Krenko and able to tap him. And I pretty much built my whole deck around giving him haste and multiplying the tap ability of Krenko.
yup
I'm curious if you have done a podcast on misrated commanders? I.E. ones that are often downplayed by their players or overhyped by their opponents?
Who can suggest a good Rafiq primer for 2022? I used to love playing against that deck when I was a newbie... sad to see he got power crept so much. Let's bring Rafiq to the forefront
My guess (and this is just a guess) would be that you'd play Rafiq best these days as a control deck vs the traditional aggro deck that tends to race out the gate to one-shot someone and peter out. Slow roll out pieces to establish a board state and card advantage while keeping anyone else from winning, then when you're the one driving the bus begin one-shotting everyone.
@@danaroach29 hi Dana, first of all, I'm a big fan of this channel, secondly, this sounds like a good plan, time sto start brewing I guess 🤩
What ive learned about magic the pokemon is its either sacrifice creature orrrrr play whole deck no mana cost.
Truly not enough people playing Echoing Truths.
I'd like to put my marath on the spotlight since he's fully capable of being the center of the deck and has his own combos in the deck to play with him however he also is a very +1+1 counter deck and can play without him to make huge creatures still. And best thing of marath is if you remove him he comes back bigger and scarier each time cast
My landfall muldrotha deck is all about cards with power/tuff lands cards so muldrotha is important but victory is possible without her
Some people just use the commander colors to play a deck,don't play commander most of the time, how u feel about that?
If your pod is having fun it's none of my damn business how you do it 😆
I feel like if you're not putting something that's useful for your deck's plan to summon in the Command Zone you're just kind of throwing away deck building slots. I mean, it's not morally wrong or whatever, but it'd be like asking what someone thinks of putting, I dunno, vanilla 1/1s for 1 with no synergy in your deck. Your deck is measurably worse than it could be because you're discarding the potential you could get out of that card slot. A commander you're basically never going to play is the same as starting each game with 6 cards in your hand rather than 7.
Light paws...
Etrata?
I think almost all commanders are part of your winning strategy. I guess some are tool box and your win cons don't need the commander in any way, but those are boring to me.
The Ehcoing Truth. Again. Lmao
@18:55
Until #WotC includes the intended etymology of a given (often made up) word, the 100s of ways you can pronounce a string of characters is nearly impossible to guess at. Like yes we can look at the set's origin and theming but usually these themes are broad and not hyper specific.
That you can ask who would be coining "Nekusar" the Mindrazer? That the themes of Dominia are rather fantasy driven, yet have clear European roots in: clerics, pirates, vampires, angels, demons, zombies and wolves (also in the art treatment of each) are some of the familiar features yet there are loads of fantasy creatures created to paint out this world (some more ‘exclusive’ to wizards: Cat-Beast, eldrazi, wurm, fungus, horror, jellyfish-hydra-beast).
So in that you could ask Swedes, Germans, French, Ukrainians how they would pronounce "Nekusar".
Likewise you can try to pinpoint |Ne / Nek + ku/u + sar| and see how many languages have similar divisions and character combinations. Simply looking at the word and styling of the surrounding sets, “Nekusar” is likely a Germanic word but that in itself is vague.
So if you pronounce “Nekusar” not with a Germanic lens, that is ok (IMO).
Where it does matter a bit more is when there is a clear anchoring of culture and set specificity. Like the Japanese or African themed sets. That you can take a word like Teferi and trace it to real people and places from Ethiopia. Selamawit Teferi (olympian), Gibreab Teferi (20th century Ethiopian activist and writer), a town (Mizan Teferi), and airport name.
We as players should understand a bit of the etymology of where some of these words and which words are clearly grounded.
@19:14 That Wilhelt the Rotcleaver probably is more accurately thought under a Dutch/Germanic umbrella and shouldnt be read with the English |w| sound but rather the Dutch/German |w| or sounds like |v| in english.
Does it matter? Not really but its nice to know not everything you pronounce is anglocentric
Wow u guys are morphing hardcore lol u could be on one of those reptile shape shift vids
There are actually 3 Never Ending Story films. Granted, the last one is awful… but it does have a young Jack Black.
An important factor overlooked in this discussion is budget. I browse a lot of budget brews (
Guys, I love you. But please read the book of the neverending story. It is wonderful and has a much richer much more philosophical Concert to it.
I have a Kyler deck and I love it. But he is a lynchpin in the deck. Remove him and I have a bunch of 1/1 dorks.
Arixmethes
Mairsil intensifies
I find the Kyler/Lambhold argument to be pretty wrong. If you remove kyler, often times the Lambholt is just a tiny idiot again. I honestly disassembled my Kyler because it frustrated me that the whole deck falls apart if Kyler is removed. You need to run protection for him in multiple slots. At the same time, the deck needs things that make your humans actually punch through clogged out boards, needs draw sources and humans that do at least something. I found it virtually impossible to find a balance for that deck.
Ur dragon deck. If 1 big dragon dies, call out the next big dragon and blast the table.
Lame