Aligning a Wonky Wilier with the help of a Hambini BB
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- čas přidán 24. 03. 2023
- This Wilier Triestina Road bike came into us with a messed up but virtually new Shimano Ultegra crank set. The Kogel bearings were mega tight, out of alignment and causing a weird vibration feeling when pedaling. We found the issue, made a plan to fix it and have tried to talk you through the steps we took.
Some of the tools used.
35- 50mm Bore Gage
25-50mm Internal Micrometer
230 grit wet paper
Honing Tool
Park Tool BB Press
Wheels Manufacturing BB Bress
@Hambini Pf41 installation tools
Hambini BB86 race bottom bracket
Engineers Parallels
Feeler gages
IceToolz Shimano Preload Wrench
@WeraToolRebels 2-12nm Torque Wrench - Sport
Wow. Very thorough but how much was that frame. You shouldn't have to do that much faffing. It should be round from the factory!
Well yes. But if all frames were perfect there would be little need for 5 year old engineers 😂
@@Mapdec we get trash bikes because there are too many 3-4yr olds in the industry
It amazes me a 5 year old has a successful business model because high end bicycle manufacturers can't make a round hole inbetween two tolerance limits. Which by the way are common bearing mount standards across many industries.
@@waynosfotos I think it's more the colourful 5 year old language, rampant disregard for authority, anti wokeness and general rebeliousness. The holes unless they are hairdresser ones have nothing to do with it. Unless it's Liz Hurley, she's my favourite.
@@Hambini loved Liz Hurley in Austin Powers! Now BEHAVE! 🤣
wow dude, a bike mechanic with a dial bore gauge. thats so impressive and I dont think most people understand how crazy that is. whoever lives near you and has the privilege to bring their bike to you should really be happy.
Not many bike shops would go this length at this level of professionalism. Kudos for great customer service Mapdec!
I do wonder about this sometimes
This reminds me of when I wanted to send my rear shock off to a suspension tuner through my local bike shop and they say "oh we forgot the password for the login" and didn't even attempt any further...
i think the real issue is not enough riders would put the extra money into something like this to make it worth it for most shops to invest in the metrology equipment
With the precision of modern machinery its amazing how badly they can screw up a simple bike frame.
Totally agree! How hard can it be to machine/drill a hole through 70-90 mm of material, that (to make it easier) is empty inside?
Or when building the carbon frame - like they could not wrap fiberglass material and later on the carbon fibers around some up to spec tube, that would be removed from the frame at the final stage of production (just like a worn bottom bracket, in the future).
I don't know how much other viewers liked this video, as for me I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks
Thanks Gary
Not often I see ocarinas used in bicycle maintenance. Impressed!
There goes Wilier from my potential new bike list
Give over. If that’s the case you won’t buy any bike at all.
Don’t worry about the frame too much. More the bike shop that sells it to you. They should be checking this stuff before you ever own it.
Love watching proper mechanics do a proper job 😎
If Mapdec isn't the best bike repair shop in the UK then where is? Top notch work 👏
😁🙏
Love a happy ending ❤😂
0.38 kudos for not corpsing ! …..nigh a raised eyebrow …….a true pro. On a serious note…… an excellent identification of the issues both visually and verbally and a masterclass fix. Paul really appreciate the time and attention you’ve put into this, an absolute ⭐, Chapeau.
Corpsing level 0.38
I'm amazed by your thoroughness and knowledge. Even more when I compare you with some of the bike shops around.
Wow, thank you!
TOP CLASS WORK only your selves and Hambini doing this level of work a great video thank you.
Our pleasure David.
Swapping sides with the click-stick 5 times when doing up the pinch bolts on the LH crank makes me happy :-)
So many internet gurus just seem to click the bolts once each and call it good, most likely they are pretty unevenly torqued in that case.
Aye. Just keep going until it clicks without moving.
Appreciate the detailed content you produce 👌👍
Thanks Tim
Thank you for the in-depth information. I greatly appreciate the extra technical knowledge that goes into your explanations.
Im super happy with my Hambini BB. I don’t miss those creaks though when pressing them in. 😰
Great detail in your explanation 👍
Glad it was helpful!
…
Willy Wonka ❌
Wonky Willier ✅
Fantastically detailed video. Not a DIY effort. A Hambini BB will solve a multitude of problems.
thanks for the detail and explaining thought process
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent comment and spot on.
Thanks for the content
Great vid ❤
Thanks 😁
Buen video, yo tuve un problema parecido y lo solucione con bbinfinite, se acabaron los problemas.
Great work!! Great explanations!!
Now my comments ( always negative).
I have two frames that serve the same purpose for me. A Bianchi Infinito CV, and a Wilier NDR. Though the Wilier was priced higher than the Bianchi. When doing maintenance and cutting stems I was able to look inside both frames at the headset and the bottom brackets.
In my opinion it was night and day. The Bianchi was well finished and clean. While the Wilier was crappy and unfinished inside. While I've had zero problems with either bike. I don't think I would buy a carbon Wilier frame ever again. Both frames are said to be designed for the Paris Roubiux race and built for comfort. They are both very smooth riding frames. They both sprint exceptionally well. They are built with Campy Record groupos and both have Campagnolo's aluminum with ceramic bearing wheels Shamel ultra.
I wasn't suprised to see the Wilier frame featured in this video. In fact I'm surprised we haven't seen a larger number featured in your videos. ( yep! That's how bad I thought my frame looked on the inside.)
Again , great video.!!
I'd wish you were my bikeshop🇳🇱👍🚴♀️
Thank you. I am sure you have some good bike shops too.
Super job! Rgr
I watching your videos for the problem solving, commenting to be smug about still using square taper. The industry needs more people like you! Srsly though the industry has gone mad, bikes are built like cars now.
Lol. We have a lot of car, truck and motorcycle mechanics that come to us. Our work is usually more fiddly with infinite options and alignment faff.
@@Mapdec I worked at a bike shop over summer, so glad we didn't offer maintenance in-house, can't afford the tooling
Car tolerances are higher, i think. Well its what my brother said anyway
Top job, fascinating process but as others have said it beggars belief that Willier can’t make a round hole and that the frame passed their quality control.
Your face gives away the ‘hope this works’ at the end. Nice spin…nearly like a square taper BB? I find it interesting how many times you re-torqued the bolts on the shimano crank. I have Campy cranks on all my bicycles, so this is new to me.
Glad I own a TIME frame.
Sure. It’s a tricky process. Depends on the Square Taper BB. They are essentially the same thing on a smaller scale. The dura ace ones on track bikes are amazing. Many are far from amazing. Doing up pinch bolts require this method of back and forth. Stem bolts are the same
Just don't buy frames with creakyfit bbs. Specialized and Santa Cruz as well as a lot of other brands use threaded bbs and it just works. Buy a Chris King BB and you have a perfect system with a lifetime warranty on the bearings. Even my Nukeproof threaded bb is brilliant. I have never had a bike in the shop due to issues with a threaded bb, mostly because on say a shimano bb when the bearings are worn its super easy to replace the bb with relatively basic tools.
It’s more like every bike shop has facing and tapping tools to sort threaded bb. Very few have invested in tools and knowledge to work with pressfit.
Loving all the attention to detail! And wondering how to find a bike workshop closer to home with this same ethos...
thank you. Instagram is a good place to look. many towns have an independent workshop only place run by a passionate self employed mechanic posting pictures of their immaculate work.
Carbon frames are like a box of chocolates
You never know what you’re gonna get
Carbon frames dont taste very good. Eating one is painful 😫
I like the nutty ones
Least I know where to send mine if I have any issues👍
love it
Very good decision to press it in from the NDS
Mechanics follow instructions.
Love your channel mate, quality work. My next bikes going to be expensive after I send it to you from Australia to assemble. Are there any brads you’d say are generally better quality than others?
That’s very kind. There are some brands that reliably produce high quality. LOOK, Pivot, Yeti, Argon 18. I keep hearing good things about Time, but I haven’t seen one in years to comment.
Your pen is working too!!!
Most of the time …
@Mapdec Cycle Works they do dry up over time and work intermittently
I see a recurring theme of people slaping expensive performance products to fix poor quality, ending up with more expenses.
The thing is very simple: when a pair of something bespoke and something standart does not work, it is 99,99% not the standart part's fault. And when two do not have same quality, you gotta make them meet it, not maximise the sum.
So, gotta re-bore the frame and it will fit Kogel, or downgrade to the cheapest sloppiest BB with nylon cups. Hampini BB with Locktite is great too, but suboptimal.
Reboring the frame is way outside our tooling capabilities. And anyone else I know. It would require a mill, some sophisticated alignment tools and jig. There is also a raised section in this frame where the cable guides locate that would stop a 40.98mm bore going straight through. It would need to be flipped in a jig. Ball ache!!!!
@@Mapdec a 5-axis cnc at least, yeah. Actually, no. You got quite close to the desired result. So, it takes an imperial ton of measurements and sanding.
Mills, jigs, etc are only measures of mechanization. Good for repeatability and further automatization, absolutely not necessary for one-off jobs.
But, extremes aside, reamer with a through hole, pair of V blocks, shims and a bit of tippy-tap-tapping is sufficient with not much effort involved.
You should just get yourself a setting ring for the bore gauge! Then you can measure the diameter with high accuracy.
Probably a good idea. 👍
That's the first 12 speed Shimano rim brake version I've seen in the wild
Rare item indeed
Woah how? You can update r8000 shifters to 12 speed?
I know this is a special case, but I just want to advocate for not using loctite or retaining compound on other pressfit installations. We have had multiple hambini BBs come in with people wanting them changed, and the previous mechanic loctited them in. It took absolutely ages to get out, and is a worry about damaging the frame. Other people have used loctite on their SM-BB71/86 and it has required dremeling to get them out. Normal aqua proof grease suffices for 99% of installations. We have also experienced with loctited BBs they are more likely to creak.
You have to check the size of the hole and make the right call. Hambini specifically specifies retaining compound in a correct size hole. Mechanics do as engineers design. Problem are when mechanics don’t measure and make assumptions. Also. Removing them, use a shock freeze on the aluminium once the bearing is removed.
Grease won't take up the torque load. There are portions of air gaps all around the BB cups which is the opposite of a press fit. Grease is hiding the creak but the BB is still moving and wallowing out the frame.
The only solution is oversize the BB holes, epoxy the gap bonding to the frame, cure for 2+ weeks for full contraction, then ream the epoxy to spec. A very easy job with the reamer currently being the only rare/expensive component.
I have to admit that I love this, but I also wonder why newly purchased frames wouldn't simply be sent back to the manufacturer? I realize that shops will see issues like this from bikes that are not brand new and would either need to make a choice to fix it or have the customer/shop send it back in. I also wonder about the folks that own and ride these bikes for many years where Locktite is used that is a more permanent fix, and what happens if they simply need another BB... how easy will it be to remove the BB? Thanks for sharing!!
With internet sales, warranty becomes really hard. You would have to box up the the bike, send it away, and wait and wait and wait, as it goes from dealer to brand and back again. Facing and finishing work often gets debated. Does is affect function? Is it for the factory to do, or the dealer to correct etc. It can take an entire summer to wrestle out sometimes.
Oh. Removing loctite is easy if the figment was correct for the gap. Just heat a little.
@@Mapdec I think I misunderstood, is the loctite 648(I believe) not a permanent fix?
This video makes me sad. I am kind of old and Wilier were bikes I absolutely lusted over when I was young in the early to late 1980's. Any article about them in magazines, I read multiple times. They had those beautiful lugs and some of the best paint jobs. Oh, how the mighty have fallen. I really expected better quality control out of them. Especially given their frames are pretty expensive.
Oh, and you forgot to check to make sure the pen is working.
my pen works.... thanks David.
@@Mapdec - Whooooosh!
So, given how much thinking time and how much engineering time you gave to this project how do you cost it? Does the customer get an estimate or a fixed price up front or does the customer give you a budget?
It’s a good question. To attempt to fix the frame to accept the Kogal was going to be a difficult, risky and time consuming job with lots of labour time. To hone out the frame like this and slide in a Hambini is a quick job. We charged an hour for the job. With the measuring tools to hand we can make that decision fairly quickly.
@@Mapdec dam. 1 hour should of been a bicycle mechanic with kind of time allowance.
I'd like to know how much the total labour's and parts cost was for these repairs
The Hambini BB is on his site. We charged 1 hour. To try and get the Kogal to work would have been a much longer and stressful job.
@Mapdec Cycle Works ah that's not bad at all
What hub is that, so loud. HOPE possibly
Hi, what make is the honing tool you used in the drill?
Think it’s a Sealy
This seems to be a recurring problem with almost all these new bikes,I’m glad I’m out of the business
Why, its good for business, bad for customers
@@janeblogs324 If you go in the “business “ to make money that you don’t know the feeling why we love working on bicycles,everything’s not about money
Proper road bike, not a disc brake in sight, such a shame about the manufacturers defects, otherwise perfect, lightweight, ease of set up, rin brake all day long for a road bike.
😵💫
If it doesn’t say Hambini on the BB it’s not optimal hence “CRAP”. The spin test confirms how much of a quality part the Hambini BB is
If a frame is manufactured correctly, then even a simple cheap Shimano bottom bracket is more than sufficient.
What kind of honing tool did you use to bore out the bottom bracket shell to your desired width?
I think the link and info is in the description
@@Mapdec It just says "Honing Tool". I have an undersized BB shell on my CAAD10 and am looking to purchase a tool to correct. Any recommendations on a specific honing tool would be greatly appreciated. Cheers!
Oh. I’m sorry. From memory it is a Sealy Honing tool 280 grit I think that covers the 41mm size. The caad 10 is aluminium. You should use the park tool 41.94mm reamer
@@Mapdec Much appreciated. Are you aware of any other honing tools for aluminum frames that may be cheaper? I wonder if the Flex-Hone tool would work using a 1-3/4 inch tool for just a bit to hit the ideal 41.98mm. I'm installing an Hambini BB.
Wilier Wonky and the Hambini factory doesn't have the same ring to it as Charlie.......... 😂
The Wilier factory was on Charlie
@@Mapdec haha good one 😂😂
Shouldn't that improve alertness productivity?
Did you just call Hambini “chocolate”?
@@JMcLeodKC711 absolutely NOT in the sense you are implying!
I'm not a fan of the wheels/hambiñi solution still. You've got a hotdog down a hall way problem, their solution is to just slam the doors shut on the tips of the hotdog. But all the pedaling load goes through the walls of the hallway. So far no ones recorded the detriment that these BBS will cause to the frames over time.
We really need a BB cup that has 3 or 4 jaws that expand outwards to create a friction fit on the walls of the BB, instead of clamping the edges of the frame
I’m not entirely sure I understand your concerns here. The press fit sleeve method for shaft alignment is found everywhere from aircraft to racing cars.
@@Mapdec I'm just referring to the BBS that thread together and clamp carbon BB faces that were never designed to be clamped
@@janeblogs324 I'm sorry, but you are lumping together 2 very different solution: only one of them thread together (and there are other brands using the same method), while the other one (Hambini) does not clamp the edges at all
solution: Never buy a press-fitted BB.
7:59 what's that tool?
Honing tool
@@Mapdec please explain with a demo
Keep watching.
So how much would you charge the customer for this?
This was just an hour. The fox to install a one piece is quite quick. If they had really wanted the Kogal aligned it would have been much more time to try and get them aligned and fill in.
Also where did you get the BB gauges from
How much does that bike cost 😳😳 and it’s a wonkey BB 🙄🙄.
That bike would be going straight back
Not acceptable and shocking
Hopefully the company is paying for the Hambini BB?
Very poor quality control on a high end frame seams to happen alot
It beggars believe we can get a man to the moon in 1969 and build a space station. and cant get a round hole in a bike frame to the right size ,why do we have to put up with sub standard bike frames at silly height prices .
NASA didn’t skimp on QC
@@Mapdec 🤣
@@Mapdec Except that one time...
Don’t bike manufacturers check all this as part of their QC before releasing frames costing thousands.
I would love to know.
So you have had to do the QA and reparation that the manufacturer (Wilier) should have done. However, Wilier are aware of fakes being sold..."We are increasingly searching the web for ads and offers on Wilier Triestina branded bikes, frames and accessories, sold by phantom dealers, artisans and vendors that are unauthorized. Often these products are fakes."
It is a possibility. If it is a fake it is a very very good one. All the little frame fittings are familiar Wilier stuff and the paint finish is lovely.
It's definitely not a fake
Very fair but latter point also known to lawyers as the ‘ it wasn’t me guv defence’ 🤥
“Wonky Wilier” doesn’t really sound right. I think “Vile Wilier” is better.
As you can see even from your table Loctite is for METAL surfaces not for carbon or plastic.
You can read deeper. There is lots of info on Henkel website and others about this and the activators used. Their little help bot is useful too.
@@Mapdec I work at Henkel. We develop Loctite. Thermal expansion will gradually destroy this bottom bracket.
Interesting. Can we talk more? My feelings are to always follow the instructions from the supplier. I have used your chat to check things like this.
@@human-pl7kx Could you explain this more in (relatively) lay terms? Do you mean it could expand too much in hot weather and exert outward pressure on the carbon BB bore?
@@steveadorjan9048 The coefficient of expansion(through heat) and shrinkage(through cold) of carbon is different to aluminium. Over time it will stress/wear either material. It's why I stick to aluminium for my bikes.