Critical Role Is LOSING Viewers...But Does It Matter?!
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- čas přidán 30. 12. 2023
- The Character Sheet is back with more TTRPG and Fantasy news as we examine how Critical Role Campaign 3 has dropped in Twitch and CZcams viewership for the second year in a row...but does that drop even matter to Matt Mercer and the rest of the Critical Role cast as they keep adding new podcasts, new actual plays, and even new animated shows?
Find out how far Critical Role campaign 3 has fallen, what seems to be driving the drop in viewership, and why it may not even matter in the long run right now!
#actualplay #dnd
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consider: they're losing viewership because watching a full dnd campaign is a huge time commitment. The pandemic artificially inflated their viewership numbers.
Was covid a thing in season 1? Their fanbase is growing up and have less time to invest in the show. That’s why viewership is down.
@@TheKillaShow I agree with that too because that's a genuine thing people kind of forget that your audience is probably going to be young or in a place where they have a lot of time and as time goes on they're going to lose their ability to just sit down and watch for however many hours live.
Came here to comment on the Pandemic point. I was introduced to Critical Role early after the pandemic started. I'm really stoked to catch up with campaign three, it's just that life got busier 🤷♂️
Also doesn't include the audio version which is how i consume it
Not really - they had huge viewership before the pandemic.
They sold out a stadium. I think they’re good
Nice
They sold out a stadium *for the Mighty Nein*
Not for C3 related stuff.
A directly took off right after the episode dealing with with campaign 3 and has potential ramifications.@@Mark-ke1rj
Tbf C2 sold out an arena
Correction: Critical Role's live "night of" viewer numbers are down. The data here says nothing about people watching the VoD on either Twitch or CZcams, not to mention podcast listeners because who has 4 solid hours to devote your attention to 1 thing these days.
I listen at work, and occasionally peak when it sounds like some cool visual thing happened.
But I also usually stop for a bit when they do a break for like holiday stuff and then pick up when I have a few episodes to go back to.
Either way, definitely not listening live.
I never watched the show live. Always on VOD but Campaign three was unappealing for me. Not sure what it was and I watched the first... 30-40 episodes? Idr, I watches a lot of it.
Yep. By the numbers viewership is up. Twitch is just a bad system. The only thing I watch on Twitch is Critical Role and Twitch can't even make it easy to watch! I have to search for it every time! Even with a membership which I dropped because Twitch sucks.
Especially since everyone isn't locked inside their house or social distancing
Well...who even needs sleep, right?
What people don't realize about keeping a viewcount is that you're not actually keeping the exact same people. If your viewcount goes from 7000 to 7100 in a month, you probably didn't just gain 100. You probably lost 1000 and gained 1100. You have to keep momentum.
And so what I think is happening is that CR is having a very normal retention rate, but their replacement rate is falling off. When people would stop watching before, they'd have just as many people or more to come replace them. Now, the barrier to entry is higher. Sure, you can pick up right where we're at, but wouldn't it make more sense to watch the start of the campaign? And at that rate, maybe you should watch the other campaigns first too. Oh wow, that's thousands of hours, not gonna start that now, guess I'll save it for a rainy day.
When I advertise Critical Role, I tell them to start at Campaign 2. Watch the first 30 or so episodes, after they defeat Lorenzo, and then you know the folks more so you can watch Campaign 1 if you're interested, knowing that the entire quality is much lower. For me, I couldn't watch the lower quality stuff until I finished C2.
I don't even mention C3, because by the time they're ready for it, they'll figure it out themselves.
@@XoIoRougei will say that I actually enjoyed the first campaign more because of plots and stuff ( and the fact that I listen to it rather than watch so I am not affected by quality)
@@Solstice261 Ah, I never considered listening to it. That's actually a good idea. I do love the plots of C1, but C2 is perfect for someone new to get into CR because everyone brought their own personality into their characters.
@@XoIoRouge those 30 episodes are still a shiton of hours.
@@j.b.5422 That's step 2.
Step 1 is "Tell them to start at C2E1."
That's it. If they're uncertain if they'll miss anything from C1, then check for step 2, "Did you get to 30 episodes?"
"No, I only got through 3."
"Did you like it?"
"Sure, [pros and cons]."
There's a bunch of variables here, and they're your friends - you'd know them best. Maybe you should encourage them to watch C1 sooner than I suggested. My opinion may differ from when I'd encourage my friends to branch towards the other campaigns but I am suggesting what I found worked with my friends. C2 for a while, and if you can't get past Lorezno, you can't get through C1.
I think it might be that they've ironically helped further a ttrpg Renaissance. Lots of people are playing instead of watching
Eh. In my experience, I'd say lots of people are buying dice and minis then playing D&D for three sessions before dropping it and deciding they "have better things to do and are too busy", with maybe 5% of them all genuinely committing to a D&D group.
But otherwise I agree.
@Turd_Rocket I have experienced similar things in college. After a session or 2 people would drop out because they said they are busy with school work or they have another issue outside of school. I think year is first time in a while that I have gained players gradually instead of slowly bleeding players.
@@Turd_Rocket I mean...surely you can recognise that your anecdote doesn't account for mass numbers by any means, cos realistically speaking, how many different people have you played with...and how does that stack up to a wider community.
I think the renaissance theory is plausible m
@@Turd_Rocket How does that not count when you’re describing the average ttrpg experience across all of time??? 99% of people will only ever have time in their lives for random one shots, but if they still play, then they’re playing! You don’t discount those people just because they’re not settling in for a year long commitment
@@z-beeblebrox An average campaign can be concluded within months, not years, if you have an actual committed group.
I had also meant to imply that the same viewers who won't commit "3-4 hours per week" to playing D&D should have that same problem with watching Critical Role "live". I see a correlation in that lack of commitment, not that it's anything close to a certainty of course.
I'll bother to note, I did mention I agree with the theory that some former viewers are now players and have to choose between D&D and Critical Role. I only intended to state my belief that most of these won't actually play D&D for longer than, maybe, a month - therefore it doesn't count (because why would you suddenly not have time to watch Critical Role if you are not spending that time playing D&D[?] which was the initial hypothesis). But, as I've admitted, I can't say for sure.
They started playing for themselves, they still play for themselves, the fact that anybody even watches is icing on the cake.
Yeah all their sponsorships and merchandize sales are very insignificant "icing" on the cake, sure.
@@khristopherkhrist1385I mean, they’ve all said if the company and the stream come to an end they’re still going to keep playing. So, yeah, icing on the cake.
It's thick ass icing to be sure. But I wonder if they would keep streaming on a platform if it was all gone tomorrow.
They haven't been playing for themselves in years. There is a whole company depending on it.
No campaign one was playing for themselves. Campaign three is a big ad-lib production that I personally find really boring. Campaign two was somewhere in the middle I believe.
They’ve got a full on animated tv show that basically guarantees them all a job for as long as it runs so I think they’re good. They’re playing for fun, they’re having fun, and that’s what’s really important
They left a lasting mark on the industry and have brought attention to the hobby that helped keep it alive. They did their part and then some.
"Everyone but Liam is playing a joke character." In what world is Imogen a joke character???
I thought the same thing lol
Or laudna?
^Or Ashton for that matter, in all honesty.
They all have their "dumb" moments, but when the situation requires it, they get serious ... Everyone is hating on C3 because is not mighty nein and they got attached to them 🙄🙄🙄
Fresh Cut Grass is a joke character in name only lmao
Listen it’s on really late into the night on Thursday when you’re not in their time zone.
Waiting for it to come out on Monday is just easier.
those numbers are down too
I do the same thing. I always watch it on Monday and would sometimes even have popcorn ready.
@@onappapBy how much?
To be fair, covod/lockdown inflated viewership like crazy do obviously numbers would decline from then with people going back to work
never stopped people from tuning in before.
As a longtime viewer (from before the Briarwood arc in C1), C3 is super hard to invest in. It felt like a collection of inside jokes from the start, and the plot was so convoluted that even the players struggled to remember what was going on. I dunno if he's trying to tie up all the loose ends before leaving Exandria, but it just feels like too much is going on. I fell out and am trying a binge rewatch, but it's still difficult.
Yeah, I quit watching C3 around episode 51 because there were so many storylines I just stopped caring altogether. Bringing in all these past characters and even the guest players just makes it feel even more cluttered/clunky.
to be fair, the gang is notorious for struggling to remember even some of the most basic story beats. they'd all be goners if Marisha wasn't so thorough with her note-taking.
I started campaign 2 like three times before I actually got past like episode 15.
Might go back to campaign 1 eventually, though I was watching the animated.
Campaign 3 was a bit hard to get into.
I didn't particularly like half of the characters for a while, especially Liam's character, but by this point they've grown on me.
Until more recently they all felt a bit directionless, but from my experience playing that's how most parties are.
Honestly, having a villain and involvement with characters from the other continents that were in past campaigns really killed my interest fast. Hell, the main villain barely feels like it's their own antagonist, and on top of that. having player characters with connections to Campaign 1 characters makes the world feel small.
For me, it mostly feels like the high-stakes were revealed waaay too early, before the party formed their own connections. None of the party really feels like friends so much as a collection of misfits who stumbled into a doomsday cult that is having a few hiccups right at the end of their master plan thanks to these chucklefucks.
Im still watching, but this season was the first time I occasionally was like "Eh, Ill catch it on the reupload"
I mean shouldn’t this be obvious? They’re multiple years into a campaign, of course there’s viewership dropoff. Theyll probably see a bump during the finale but that’s it. Only new campaigns attract new viewers. Ain’t nobody jumping into CR for the first time this late into a storyline
Still love watching, but the main problem for me is the apparent lack of defined arcs. Campaign 1 had the Briarwoods, the Chroma Conclave, and Vecna. Campaign 3 feels like a super gradual dragging towards the same BBEG for the whole campaign. In the other campaigns, I don't think they even knew who the BBEG was at this point in the campaign, they were on some other exciting arc.
Iv been trying to figure out personally why iv lost interest recently but I think you hit the nail on the head for me.
I was 100% invested in the first arch of CP3 right up until shortly after Robbie left.
1-23 arc 1
24-51 arc 2
52-75 arc 3
76-ongoing arc 4
That being said, Arc 2 was Ruidus Rising, and then Arc 3 was "Character development: The side quest" essentially.
They were doing a lot of individual character arcs instead of one BBEG until the very end. He wasn't even teased until they got to the forgetting island
I've watched ~50 episodes of c3 and I think that's something I'm struggling with. I love the campaign and characters, but it really does feel like there aren't as clear of lines between arcs.
In C2 my favorite arc was the pirate arc. Imo it has some of the greatest scenes, but it is one that you could consider "filler" if this was a classic tv show. The fact that in c3 there is this constant looming threat that they find out about decently early makes it feel like they can't have longer detours and have to come back. It doesn't feel like things slowly connect to reveal a perfect puzzle but rather you constantly looking at it.
I felt that to,
Itheorized maybe its cuz they failed to stop Ottohan?
Like with The Briarwoods- defeated before plans could bear fruit.
Chroma Conclave- also defeated before master plan was hatched (see what I did there?)
Maybe this continued Ruidus stuff is because THIS is what happens if you fail to stop Briarwoods/Conclave/etc.~ their plans continue.
???
There’s a lot of reasons why CR3 would decrease viewers. 1. Overall all CZcamsrs and streamers have seen decreases of viewership ever since we left the pandemic. 2. It’s been a very busy period in people’s lives 3. It’s really easy to fall behind in CR so sometimes people just… stop watching because the backlog becomes so intimidating
I'm at C3E17 right now. I know I'll get caught up...eventually. I'm just enjoying the ride, tbh.
Also the quality of the show and how well received the show is has an effect, no? Like, this is probably the first thing that would come to your mind as a possible lessening of interest and interaction and viewership.
@@mercurydylan899 I mean I think the quality of the show is just fine. I have no problems with it
@@ToxicWaffle183 it would seem based off lower numbers and feedback that, generally, there has been a dip in quality. At least, there seems to be less interest and enjoyment from the audience more broadly in comparison to prior times.
Also, Bell’s Hells just aren’t as interesting to me as Vox Machina or the Mighty Nein.
I personally think a single main arc for the whole campaign was a mistake. If the main src doesn't grab you, you can only watch so much before it gets boring.
I made it to the 7th "but do we REALLY need the gods?" conversation before I bounced out.
I absolutely adored the first campaign because to me that was a bunch of friends playing a game that they loved, every campaign since the first seems to be stepping further and further away from friends playing a game for themselves to a group of people playing a game for the viewers
I'm catching up on C3 and I think it still feels like friends playing a game together, but when they are actually playing in the plot, they do ham it up a little it. That's what you do. It's still got a good feel, it just has more production. I don't think it feels further away, personally, not with Travis scrolling through "teen slang" when he gets possessed by a teenage girl ghost. They ARE acting professionals, so that's what they're going to do. Act.
To me, it feels just the opposite. They feel more and more like they're playing for themselves.
@@ShadowyFox_86 SO TRUE
How do you play a DnD game for the views??? xD
"And right as the necromancer turns towards you ge sais "Greetings to SlamSlayer1994, thank you for the 5$" and then blasts you with reduced damage because the chad vote said he should do that"???
"end 2023 and they still arent on ruidis." Dude... Ive ran games where the party derailed the session for over an hour talking to a tree stump. Have you even played DnD? I feel like "side quests" are par for the course.
1st, they aren't just playing for themselves now. They have a huge fan base with nearly a decade of shows to base expectations on. They have a multi-million-dollar for-profit company based around this show. They do need to pay attention to the pacing and the quality of the story IF they plan on continuing as they have been.
That, of course, isn't saying there is a "right way" to play DnD or that they couldn't still play together and have fun. BUT their COMPANY will wither if they just play how most tables play. Because we can just do that ourselves.
@@citizen_wayne 1st. They do play for themselves. This is a form of art. Art is subjective. Don't like it? Don't view it. Plain and simple. Every artist changes up their work from time to time. And that is allowed to happen, they are not beholden to operate how YOU think they should. This is the same mentality I see when people watch streamers play a different game and get mad at them for not playing "what made them." That sentiment is as ignorant as it gets.
But it is THEIR company. THEIR company. Not YOURS or MINE or any other VIEWER. A multimillion-dollar company with a worldwide scope, of which spans many forms of media and platforms, is going to "wither" if they don't play a game how you think they should?! LMFAO that's rich.
@justinhuff1422 the problem with companies getting a "don't like, don't watch" mentality is when the vast majority of fan base goes okay and the company starts to die they start changing everything for the worse. DND is big enough that there are tons of streamed or recorded games to pick from but still nitch enough that if you lose some fans you won't make those numbers back.
@@DebTheDevastator their number got bumped with Covid. Now people don't have the expendable time they once did. They are just as relevant and popular, frankly if not more so with them expanding into various avenues of media, than they ever were. They aren't truly losing anything.
You're an absolute buffoon if you think they make no consideration for their dozens of employees and their livelihoods when making decisions regarding these games, dude. Idk what you're smoking, but I'm 100% on board bc thats batshit crazy. Certifiable. And kind of insulting to them...
This isn't exactly only art anymore. I mean, I agree that TTRPGs are collaborative improv and art. But this is art in the way that 'Key and Peele' was art. It was quality comedy made by two guys collaborating and often improvising...but it's also a product for sale.@@justinhuff1422
You also realize we're having this discussion inside a thread where everyone is acknowledging their drop in viewership and trying to determine issues in their business model. It's not about anyone "playing how [I] think they should play," right?
Because it's been said that they're pacing is off. Imagine your watching a TV show (Because they are basically competing against all media for time and eyeballs since they are largely on-demand,) and that TV show goes a certain direction for 3 episodes then does a bunch of random junk for 6 episodes having little to nothing to do with the main storyline presented then the season ends with the introduced problem still nowhere near resolution.
That's bad pacing. It's not bad because think so. It's bad because it's objectively shit storytelling. Those shows get cancelled for low viewership and get bad reviews. It can leave marks on people's careers. It's not just art, right? Multi-million dollar budgets go somewhere dude. They pay a lot more crew than actors. Success of said shows matter in a very real way. It's not a wattpad fanfic.
Another criticism is the decreased level of seriousness compared to previous campaigns. Some people come for the romance and the high drama. They come to cry sometimes as well as laugh. If you stop delivering on that, those viewers will go. You can't say "if you don't like it don't watch" and then also claim that their company won't suffer. That's a nonsense. As someone else said here, it's a niche for entertainment.
Another criticism was due to the length of episodes, if you get behind, and even worse SPOILED, then some people get lost in the undertow and never return. I'm one of those last kind.
All of those are valid reasons that they should be aware of and have nothing to do with the end of the Pandemic if they want to continue to make the same money they have been. Good bye.
Edit: Oh, their most successful projects right now are their animated Amazon series...focusing on prior campaigns...Hmmm
It's because trying to catch up on a campaign once you are behind is a tremendous task, especially if you are still trying to get through campaign 1 and 2 and don't want to see spoilers for those campaigns in C3. Critical Role is a huge time commitment, and people sometimes need to take a break from watching them and just get through the campaigns at their own pace.
Any livestreaming DnD group is a huge time comitment to watch and I have experienced myself how intimidating it is to return to a group after having missed a bunch. The group I watch do mostly do mini campaigns and the real big thing I missed was the conclusion of their long running campaign the Symmetry Saga. But when watching the episodes I missed I just watched a smaller campaign of theirs inbetween which I adored. I jumped in when they started the second season of the Symmetry Saga I watched that first then watched the first season when I had time. It is a long time out of your day to watch dnd campaigns.
Just watch Caampaign 1. It's the best story of them all. Campaign 2 and Campaign 3 are... good, but hardly worth the time in my opinion.
@@alexdoorn234I recommend watching JoCat's Necrohunt series. Perfect example of how campaigns should be paced.
yeah you just got to be a gremlin like me. i just started watching critical role about a year ago and im almost caught up. (with about 2-3 month break)
I’m a trash truck driver and I “watch”(listen to) 2-3 episodes a day, I’m on episode 53 of campaign 1!
I briefly watched some of campaign 2 and wanted to go back to the beginning so here I am lol
Honestly, the story isn't as good, and the characters aren't as engaging. It feels like they were trying for an evil campaign, but they're not good at it... Also, Matt is WAAAYY to soft on them, always has been. Combine that with the artificially inflated views from the pandemic, the removal of actual live shows, the throwing of fan art to the obscurity of a blog page on their site, and the constant schilling of products, and you've got a good mix for mediocrity and burnout.
Yup. The novelty is gone. When the novelty goes, so do a bunch of people who were watching for the novelty. All things are like this; why do we expect different from CR?
It started as a game for themselves and as long as they are still having fun with their game, whether we are watching or not doesn't make a difference. It's their game. Let them play how they want.
As somebody else noted, it's likely more so a drop in viewer figures due to us being clear of the main part of the pandemic (which had the numbers artificially inflated) and because the show has been live-to-tape vs live-in-process, so it disincentives watching it on Thursday night and just watching in more on VOD or the following week on YT. Otherwise, C-3 is still pretty much on-point compared to the prior campaigns.
Well said, they used to have little fan interactions during the break on the twitch chat before, but not that doesnt exist.
Doesnt really bother me since im from the EU and always had to wait for monday night.
Personally I like campaign 3 better than I did campaign 2
I'd really be interested to see the differences of Twitch vs CZcams views (both Live vs VOD), and how all that correlates. I imagine there was a good chunk moved to CZcams for Live, and another good chunk went with VoD.
I ended up catching the live streams on Twitch during C2, but life has gotten in the way and really haven't been able to keep up with streams. However, I still catch up with it when I can and enjoy this campaign more then I did 2.
Yeah the taped shows got me switched to CZcams vs watching live on Thursday. I know it's not actually different but it feels different for some reason. Still love the show.
@@joshuakoehne7506 I think for some people it's the difference of the Chat not being essentially "live" relative to a live feed (albeit with Twitch's 20 or so second delay). That is, for some, there was a different mindset when the live chat was in effect in response to an in-progress live stream vs reacting to a live-to-tape transmission. That, coupled with the noted dropping of Thursday night numbers due to the pandemic being "over", resulted in some people (like myself) going "ehhh -- I'll just catch it Monday; if it's not actually live-live, then it kinda' doesn't matter...".
C1= a bunch of people recording themselves in shitty unairconditioned room playing D&D. Maximum home game vibes
C2= bit more cash flow coming in. Evolving recording a home game into an internet show.
C3=100 percent internet show with all the bells and whistles and maximum distance from home game feel.
It's different strokes for different folks. I personally liked the C1 and early C2 vibes better. For me CR has not gotten bad it just has changed. I still wish them the best because they encouraged me to get back into playing D&D.
Completely agree with this. CR revitalized my love of RPGs. I dropped off in late Campaign 2 because it felt less & less like a home d&d game and more like a d&d show, with products to sell. It's not that I don't like the cast or don't want to support them, it's just such a time commitment for something that's not really my thing anymore - but I'm happy if it's someone else's.
Disagree. For one, CR has always been separated from home games due to being professional actors with incredible vocal talent. Even C1 is nothing like a typical home game. Also, im not sure what the implication here is given that CR’s highest viewership numbers were during the pandemic, when they were early into c3.
@@z-beeblebrox The earliest episodes of C1 definitely felt like a home game. Lots of snacks on the table, paper maps, constant interruptions from all the players, etc.
C3 seems very much like a home game to me. It just comes off as a lower stakes more laid back one to me, which is fine.
@@z-beeblebroxbecause professional voice actors and the change of voice can't be a home game. No way jn hell. Stop taking everything so literal
Honestly I dropped season 3 after watching about 20 episodes and realizing I only knew one character's name (FCG), and it's not like I know it because it's a memorable character, It's just so "out there" of a name that it's hard to forget.
I think the cast should have fun playing. If they are having fun that's all that should matter.
I think the bulk of people watch it in their own time rather than on stream cause it's hard to be there on thursday nights when it's not a pandemic. I have never watched it in time, I'm still catching up after like 2 years.
i’m a newer fan to cr and i’m catching up on campaign 1 still, and i’m only on episode 18. there’s no way in hell i’m gonna go on twitch on thursday nights to watch three to four hours of gameplay when i have to get up for school in the morning. i like to watch highlights or just watch the episodes in chunks so it’s easier to consume
Agreed i kist put the podcasts on while i work
There is also no reason to watch it "live" anymore, since they switched to pre-recording.
I've never been able to watch it live. It starts at 11 PM my time (and ends like 3 AM) and I work the next morning. I usually watch them on youtube the week after.
And because ADHD sometimes I'll forget to watch for several months and then watch six episodes in two days, so that probably screws the numbers a little, lol
I’ve been a fan since box Machina and I watch every single episode, but I also have a full-time job and it usually takes me a whole week to get through one episode. Just because people aren’t watching live doesn’t mean people aren’t watching.
The only true difference between C2 and C3 is that:
1. C2 had more downtime for the Mighty Nien where they could do dumb, fun things outside of the main quests (ex. The Jester temple heist, TravelerCon, the Bath Houses, visiting Pumat Sol, the Xhorhaus, etc.) while in C3 the only time the Bells Hells have had to themselves was the Casino;
2. Lack of interesting NPCs - mainly NPC staples from the other two campaigns like a Shopkeeper they could always return to (Gilmore and Pumat Sol);
and 3. Way too long on 1 quest - to stop Ruidus. Compared to the dozens of smaller quests from C2 (working for the Gentleman, the Iron Shepherds, sailing on the High Seas with Avantica, rescuing Yesa, the Angel of Irons, etc. - all of which was during the overarching quest of the War between the Dwendalian Empire and Xhorhas), C3 has been way too focused on just Ruidus.
All that being said, I still love C3
I have a piece of Caleb and Nott fan art signed by Liam and Sam. I love those characters. "I protect HIM." That broke my fucking heart. 5 eps later, hearing Liam's backstory and finding out about his parents and his memories made me curse my head off. I made Tal laugh when I said that Cad makes me think of a capybara! I need to watch more M9, and watch some more Bells Hells. I do know whenever Campaign 4 hits I will watch that from the GET GO.
Yeah, this campaign feels much more railroady in the way you mentioned. The characters' personal stories are side quests because we have to keep returning to Imogen's story, which spanned the entire campaign so far. And not to bash Laura Bailey, she didn't choose this and often seems to be acknowledging her not being entirely comfortable with it.
This definitely resonated with me. I agree 💯.
@@jakubgodlewski9104 Yeah, that's another thing, in C2 every character had an arc were the could shine:
Fjord - on the high seas with Avantica, trying to stop Ukatoa (Ukatoa), and becoming the champion of the Wildmother.
Caleb - vs the Ceberus Assembly, overcoming his past, and kindling a romance with hot boi Essec.
Jester - the traveler, TravelerCon, finding out the Gentleman is her dad, reuniting her mom and dad, etc.
Beuaregard - rooting out the corruption in the Cobalt Soul, becoming a great detective (loved Marisha's scenes of putting everything together), dealing with her parents and seeing her baby brother, and falling in love with Yasha.
Yasha - even though she wasn't there often during the beginning it created an air of mystery around her, te Angel of Irons and trying to rescue her, and her romance with Beua.
Nott/Veth - trying to return to her Halfling form, going on a quest to rescue her husband, her relationship with Caleb, the hag that'd cursed her, etc.
Cadeuces - being the calming voice to the group, helping Fjord become a champion of the Wildmother, and saving the blooming grove.
Even Mollymauk - dying and coming back as the BBG Lucien.
Every single one of them went on an arc and personel quests.
Ironically C3 has had the least amount of downtime but feels the most dragged out and slower paced game in comparison to C1 & C2. I personally think that’s the issue people might have.
I've found the time commitment a massive factor to keeping up with C3 - I just don't have the time to commit to 3-5 hours a week to watch the show.
My wife's introduced me to Dimension 20 and that feels like the perfect length - around 2-2.5 hours long, we can watch an episode in an evening and be all caught up.
I honestly think it'd be interesting if Critical Role offered both a 'full' episode and an 'edited' version (I know about Dani's recaps but that's not what I'm talking about), to see which ended up with the higher viewership.
Yep, this format is untenable unless you're a teenager with all the time in the world... which is their core demographic, so idk why they would change.
I would love a tightly edited show with cinematic shots of minis like they do in dimension20; as it is, the noise-to-signal ratio is crazy: you could probably cut like 2.5 hours out of each ep and not lose a single thing of value.
They lost me when they revived Laudna-it was the radical opposite of what happened with Molly in C2. There’s no stakes, nothing feels real anymore, like one of those superhero movies where nobody important is ever really at risk.
I felt this way too tbh
I stopped watching bc i felt the story was progressing too slowly and there was no stakes
I think they could have done the same with Molly if they had chosen to, but they didn't. They also didn't have connections like they do in C3. They have people they can talk to. Plus, it's cool to have those connections, it's fun.
I understand why you feel this way. My only counterpoint is that it's still a game they are playing together as friends and the point of a game is that everyone playing is having fun. It's not that the stakes aren't real, but dnd heroes are powerful and often have powerful connections from the nature of what they take on when nobody else can or will. The fact is, pretty much every single pc character has fully died in every campaign and many of them have died multiple times, but most of the time they are brought back with Revivify or Resurrection spells. Matt's a good GM that cares about his players and most good GMs will want to check in, with a character death, if the player is ok with that or if they want a path back to play with that character. And he doesn't exactly make it easy for them - Matt makes it way harder than the RAW make it. The only real difference is in the players. Tal was ok with the outcome of Molly dying in service of the story in that moment (and I think he pretty much always has backup characters he's ready to play, tho Cad died and was revived by Jester and Percy was fully killed multiple times and brought back by Pike). Simple fact is, Marisha wasn't ready to be done with Laudna's story here so Matt put the option in front of them to bring her back just like he has with other characters.
I get that can make it feel like there's no stakes from the standpoint of consuming entertainment as a viewer, but we do have to balance our passive entertainment with their active entertainment as players. They aren't simply making a story to be enjoyed, they're letting us watch their game. And Laudna coming back is not really different than the many times other PCs have been brought back.
And, as of this moment (I know months later than your original comment), the count has gone up from 1 PC perma-death to 2.
I personally think the “what the fuck is up with that” episode so early on really took away a lot of the building up and learning about the characters. Mighty nein played it well with the secrecy, slow burn and more natural bonding of the party.
That being said I adore seeing Ashley playing Fearne and still enjoy campaign 3 a lot.
I hated that idea and how it's so unnatural in that moment. I kept reiterating to myself, if I was there, I'd have left the room. What's your business isn't my business and vise versa. I don't know you all.
They almost had a TPK at level 8. The boss is a level 20+ wizard. They are fighting against a race of beings that are potentially the hardest mobs to fight against; they only won their first encounter with the Milorians due to environmental hazards.
I want them to do side quests, I want them to have personal growth, because while a close fight is good entertainment, the dice gods might tip the scale on the battlefield and screw every player over.
I think people are forgeting that IF they TPK, the result isnt "oh welp lets make a new group" its "WELP, THE WORLD ENDEND"
Having characters do a ridiculous amount of side quest while the world is ending diminishes the urgency of the world ending event, effectively ruining the set up of the red moon.
@ahvin4764 I'm not caught up yet so maybe I haven’t seen something that will change my mind yet, but Bells Hells aren't doing side quests any more than Vox Machina was by hunting down the various Vestiges and generally finding allies and items to take down the Conclave. Hell, one of the first things they did was fill Keylith in on everything and get her back in fighting shape so she can rally an entire continent for war.
Yes finding Keylith some flowers seems stupid given everything that's happening, but not doing that would have massively lowered their chances of success in the end.
@@matthewevans5486 i didn't watch s1 do i can't comment on it but everything is the way it is due to the narrative Matt set up. They would not have needed to go get flowers if Matt didn't write it so that the flowers have run out. They've been going on so many fetch quests that the red moon just doesn't feel like a threat anymore, it's just something to do in the far off future. It's important to develop characters but the story suffers immensely from not having a concrete time limit for side activities.
I would rather see a TPK in a combat with stakes then a million side quests that lead to nothing other than finding out FCG has a dildo implant or chet likes butt stuff.
When a cameo from a previous campaign shows up, I call it a “Deus Vox Machina”😂
I mean to be fair, I just wait for a bunch of episodes to come out till I start listening to
Nothing so far has matched the energy of Campaign 1 for me. Campaign 1 felt like we had been invited into someone else's living room to watch them play. It felt like the vibe changed after everything became prerecorded.
That's why I stopped watching. The premium recording really started to bother me especially with the new campaign. Idk there something about where I wonder how much of the show is actually just all planned and all thought out. Sometimes the reactions of the cast don't seem as genuine as the last two campaigns. And yes, the characters for me aren't as likable as campaign 2. I still bungee watch the second campaign. Alot of times to fall asleep. I've probably heard the first episode 100 times at this point because it was just the perfect opening. This campaign. Was just stale to me
When I learned they were prerecorded it made so much sense. The energy just felt different and felt way more like a show with a huge budget than just a simple dnd livestream like it was in campaign 1 or 2. I hope they can find a way to go back to live streaming it
I agree, but Campaign 1 fans are RARE, my dude. I'd even guess about 90% of current CR viewers haven't watched it. Every time I meet someone who "loves" Critical Role and tell them how much I fell in love with Campaign 1, they go "oh I started with Campaign 2".
Every.
Single.
Time.
I loved campaign 1 right to the last second.
Campaign 2 took a while but in the end it grew on me and I liked all their characters, but I lost interest at the end.
I’ve tried campaign 3 like 4 times now and I just….don’t like it.
@@Turd_Rocket I begun with c1. Got through 2 episodes a day as a truck driver and sometimes another one when I got home after because I just COULDN’T get enough.
Legend of vox machina cartoon doesn’t do it justice, though I understand it never could!
"Only Liam...and Tal...and Laura...and Marisha are playing serious characters". More than half the cast is playing a serious character lol you could argue Laudna but shes way more dark and serious than funny and chaotic. That Jester theory is bogus lol
Yeah I think this idea that everyone’s just a goofy goober isnt as true as people say when they rag on C3. The only real joke characters are Cheney and FCG and I’d honestly argue FCG is one of Sam’s least jokey characters in general. If you wanna call Ashely playing her fey character like an actual fey character, sure she’s goofy I guess.
Tal is not playing a serious character, he said so himself in a recent interview. Chet is a funny character idea taken to extreme that wasn't supposed to last this long. Hell, fcg is more serious given his backstory, attitude with helping others, connection to his past friend, and sure he has funny over the top ridiculous moments, but that's just Sam being Sam
Marisha doesn't play a serious character. She has some tragic/serious backstory, but over all she might play the goofiest character in the cast and that is saying something.
@@4203105it can be both. She has a dark, serious backstory and even her (imo) goofiest trait, creating pâté and sashimi is a coping mechanism for her fears and anxiety.
I would say Liam and Laura are the only ones playing serious characters, the rest may have the requisite tragic backstory of pretty much all Dnd PCs but they dont at all play them as if those impacted them very much. Also to another person commenting on fey, fey are not inherently just these uber chaotic people that lack social guardrails. Some fey are actually evil and serious as shit. Thats Ashley wanting to play someone very different from her previous PCs which is fine. My problem with C3 is pretty much a mix of all three problems pointed out but yeah if I dont like most of the main characters I get bored pretty quickly.
I say what matters most is they do what they like and have fun while doing it. I’m sure all their fans are still loyal, just can be difficult to watch at times due to time schedules
They really leaned into the DEI characters this season. Sure those kinds of people exist, I'm not saying they don't. BUT that doesn't cater to the majority audience. It's completely natural the viewership would be down if it doesn't resonate with most people.
every online creator experiences a plateau eventually, you can only appeal to so many. the response is often either stressful attempts at not letting the momentum die, and ending up burnt out. Or, leaning into what they love most about what they make and accepting that you’ll lose more along the way. When you reach the size CR has you will be able to be more than comfortable off the support of the most enthusiastic fans, so why not chase the passion first and foremost.
All of these opinions but no one is citing the fact that they've been the biggest name in D&D for a long time now. Short of BG3 coming out last year they essentially have been the face of D&D live streaming since C1 (what was that, 2014, 2016?).
flash-forward a whole ass decade and we've got everyone and their cat RPing on camera now, and some of them are pretty good. Everything reaches a level of maturation and then declines and CR as a franchise is reaching that peak. It was the same with zombies, Vampires, and Superheroes, D&D shows might just be next.
They will still always have a following but the fact of the matter is the market is saturated, people have options now and they've been running the same bit for over 10 years.
That said I totally agree with what others have said - they always have and have always been goofballs. That's part of the magic.
This is the sad truth. Everything has its day. The really sad thing for me is they're my generation and the arrival of the first campaign was such a perfect zietgiesty thing for their time in life, my time in life, and that of a whole generation of viewers. Whenever I stop and think about it there's an almighty sense of loss for this (not so brief) second flush of youthful endeavor before the steady march of true middle age.
Critters are the Homestuck of D&D.
Glass cannon is so much better but ig that’s pathfinder
If Matt is running things, I'm watching.
the sole reason I have never fully gotten into crit role is because of time commitment, and how hard it is to catch up when you get behind. That said, I know quite a bit about random characters and I've seen plenty of clips, animatics, and in the few cons I've been to I've seen fanart and cosplay, so I genuinely don't think the fandoms going anywhere lol
The big blunder I think is happening is that Matt deliberately wrote a plot early on, and is having to shoe-horn Bells Hells into it, when most of the characters really couldn’t care less. Nobody but FCG even remotely gives a care about the gods, and I feel like FCG only started to care about the gods as a joke, and Sam just went with it to cause playful conflict, as he often does.
Both Vox Machina and Mighty Nein were so successful was because Matt was able to shift and adjust the plot according to the character’s backstories and how they were developing. But this campaign he is really trying to force this singular narrative, and I 100% get why, bc Critical Role as a company needs to sever ties with DnD. But in game its very obvious that it’s not working.
I see this going one of two ways. Either Bells Hells finally get it together and decide to deal with Predathos, or they f around for too long, and all of Exandria is going to Find Out. It’ll be another Calamity type event, except this time Nothing will be left.
But honestly, it’s their show. They don’t owe us anything.
Yeah, they actually do. It's not just a fun hobby between friends, it's a business. If they were doing this for free that'd be one thing, but they make money off of it.
If customers don't like the product the business is selling, then it's not a very good business, now is it? The fact that you think they don't "owe us anything" is proof of how young and ignorant you are.
@@kaylee6584 Hey. No need to be nasty. I’m entitled to my opinion.
And by the way- no creator owes anybody anything. They create because they want to. If they can make a living off of it at the same time, then that’s great.
But I don’t pay for Critical Role. I watch it on CZcams days late like I’m sure millions of people do- and guess what, they’re still making a very nice living, so I guess they’re doing something right. They’re having their stories made into animated TV series. They literally just sold out Wembley Stadium not too long ago. Do you really think they’re not getting a cut of those profits?
I don’t know why you feel the need to be so hostile.
@@kaylee6584A company making money off something doesn't mean they are indebted to their customers. That's not how debt nor product sales work. If a customer buys a product and are dissatisfied with it, the company can decide if a refund is available - the customer has no power to do that. The logical notion on the customer's part is to stop buying the product they don't like.
Debt has nothing to do with it, that's a completely different financial situation.
And if you're saying "owe" as-in some debt of honour, like the consumers' money is what made the company, therefore the consumers are "owed" something other than the product they chose to pay for... haha, well my friend, it is you who is naive here.
Money has changed hands. That is the beginning and end of it. The world doesn't care about your feelings, and neither do companies.
Completely agree with this. It’s quite painful to see them flounder about ep after ep. And it’s true no one forces us to sub.
I hate when people blame the DM for wanting their players to engage with the thing they worked so hard on
I started watching with the first EXU and watched Bells Hells for those characters. Now I've watched all of C1 and about a third of C2, and I still try to stay caught up on C3. I love the characters, but there is a problem with C3 that I think the feywild vacation finally recognized and tryied to address.
Everything Bells Hells has ever done has had a timer on it. They are always running, and the stakes are always high enough that they can't stop to breathe. There is literally not time for character development because they never have a moment to rest and reflect and just hang out. The same thing happened in the game I play in, and it's not fun for anyone. Characters grow backwards We always think of pacing in terms of not letting things drag, but a sprint isn't sustainable.
Optimistically, I think Matt has realized what happened, so hopefully it won't happen again in Campaign 4, and we can all learn from this as well.
This has also been my experience of C3. I really enjoyed C2 and felt like they really let the setting breathe but we haven’t gotten very much of that in the new campaign or the new continent because they’re constantly sprinting and can’t spend any time in the incredible setting that have been designed for them. Yios was an incredible place that we know basically nothing about. That’s how the whole thing feels to me.
That's an interesting insight, and it does make sense. Campaign 1 broke down neatly into more or less distinct arcs, and the timer, as you put it, didn't come into play until the campaign was coming to a close. Much of campaign 2, to me at least, felt disjointed, and looking back I really couldn't tell you what the various arcs were, much less the over-arching campaign. Campaign 3 seems like the first time (at least since they started streaming) that Matt had a definite end-game in mind.
I wonder how much of the perceived rush on Matt's part was an actual mistake, and how much was knowing that Daggerheart was in the works, so he and the rest of the cast wanted to get this campaign wrapped up shortly before the new system officially launched so they could pivot to that more quickly, with an added bonus of giving a farewell to fan favorites from the first two campaigns for a sense of closure.
Very good observation. I do still think too many of the characters are "goofy," but I think you nailed it on the head
@@dennismoon6693 - I honestly feel like Campaign 2 was a result of COVID. It's a little hard to get your role settled when you have to not play for weeks at a time, you can't get the group in the same room, etc. I do agree with the timer issue though. The group is best when it's taking the time to NATURALLY find out about one another's characters. When it's forced for time, it doesn't come off as well. I've enjoyed C3, but I do feel the time pressure and it sits oddly with me because I felt C2 ended a bit abruptly, mostly because of the interruptions that seemed to pull at the story unnaturally. C1 got to flow naturally and Ashley was there for a lot more of it than she was in C2. I didn't watch EXU because the energy was too off-balance (they repaired this problem in C3 by having Utkarsh in the group to balance out Aimee's strong screen presence), so while I am enjoying C3, I'm also missing a piece of it. It seems like a lot more D&D Groups are popping up and there are only so many hours in the day. In the end, I'm not concerned about what it might mean for Critical Role. The people who watch it because of the friendships of the cast will continue to watch it for that reason. I love Candela, so while CR as a whole may be going down in views, their product is getting stronger. People will come back to it as they find a desire to or as their life allows. As in most things in life, there are ebbs and flows and they may be in their ebbing phase now.
I agree, I randomly started listening to Vox Machina while at work one day and after a few years listening knew the rules and was excited to start playing dnd. Found a local game shop through Facebook and played in a campaign with a very experienced dm who told a story slowly and kept the pacing perfect to flesh out the characters and his npcs. That campaign made me never wanna quit dnd....but than the shop saw how successful he was and began to rush him to do more and take on more people at the table till he lost interest and left. The new dm just had a fast pacing where it was going from mission to mission and I had to force RP and when it happend it created nice moments. Moments even the dm loved but because he had to rush they passed by quick and we killed the big bad....good bye.
So I appreciate Matt for not giving up and adapting, most importantly still trying to have his friends have fun more than focusing on us the fans. He is a good dm and we shouldn't be too harsh on him.
I made it 40 episodes into campaign 3, they took their break & I never went back to catch up. I just didn't care about the seasons characters & coming off campaign 2 which had me super invested for the full run has been kinda disappointing. It has opened up my time to check out other live play games which has been a great experience
It might be the incredibly toxic community they cultivated as well. The slightest bit of criticism and they set fire to everything around them.
This is a good point.
Yeah I will admit watching C3 is really difficult. There's a couple reasons I have observed in myself, some of which you have mentioned:
TL;DR) No stakes in long or short term, no growth, uninteresting characters and lots of lore-dumping
1) No short-term stakes: when a character died early in C2, the party had to grieve and move on from their death. In C3, when multiple people died, they were able to revive 2 of them and when they didn't have resources to revive the 3rd, they spent 3 episodes getting VM to revive her, despite her being the avatar of their greatest enemy. I guess death really is just an inconvenience.
Also fun fact, remember the deal Bell's Hells made with Yu about Fearne's parents being brought to justice by the Solstice or having more assassins sent to get them? Yeah, funny how that never happened.
2) No long-term stakes: the plot kind of just waits for the party. They learn about the Malleus Keys in e29 and get over 20 more episodes before we resolve that plotline, so that they can explore backstories of 4 characters in that time, while the world is actively preparing to fight off what is established as the apocalypse. Subsequently, they lose the battle of the Malleus Key (despite VM and M9 members helping them) and.. nothing really happens. Instead of the gateway for Predathos opening, the bad guys teleport to the moon and the parties (2 of them for a while) fuck around to only slowly begin caring about the apocalyptic events 30 episodes later, most of which the villains are shown to walk through the red deserts, so.. not really doing anything, waiting for the players.
3) No growth: Both in C1 and C2, we had characters who started from nothing and through their deeds made their way to the top. Caleb Widogast was a homeless orphan and ended up a professor and one of the most powerful people in Exandria, Yasha Nydoorin was an exile from a barbaric tribe and even by level 20 is kind of a nobody, all of her growth focused on finding herself. In C3, the characters had the most interesting moments of their lives happen before the campaign (Ashton's time with the Nobodies, death, resurrection and debt, Laudna's many years of undeath and exile, Chetney's literal travelling of the entire world and going from an artisan to a werewolf, FCG's time with another party) or go to an NPC to hear them talk about how there always was innately a great power in them (see: Ashton, Imogen, Fearne). There is no rising to power here, you either are The Chosen One or had powers gifted to you through interesting events before the campaign started. It's also hilarious that the players heavily push a notion of this being "a party of NPCs" when they are in fact "a party of Chosen Ones".
4) No consequences: This is the most "they are playing for themselves so it's okay, but it bothers me when watching" thing here. But in C3, the party will do whatever they want and get away with it. Sledding through the streets of Whitestone, flying around and destroying sh*t in Zephrah, leading to Eshteross's death, burning rooms in Whitestone, and the very punchline of these is the damage these heroes inflict on the world while "saving" it. Kinda feels like murderhobo-ing to a degree. The only moment when I truly felt the characters are doing good to the world was when they helped the celestial beast peacefully leave Uthodurn, that felt nice.
5) The characters: It gets a little tiring watching characters you don't find compelling and in C3:
-Imogen is Jean Grey down to having no personality
-Orym is just a guy, with his most interesting moments being a combo attack and doing pushups every morning
-FCG is a gimmick character whose gimmick and backstory do not affect the plot except for the 1 time they've been showcased
-Chetney is a joke character and the joke was already told, so there's nothing more to explore
-Laudna has a really interesting concept and her backstory is regularly explored but with no growth, every time it's just "Delilah bad, but we'll help you get through it"
-Ashton had such a good arc going, slowly opening up and learning he cares but then had the Chosen One archetype pushed onto him with the Blood of Titan of Blood of Titan of Blood plotline.
-Fearne is the one exception to me. She is a chaos gremlin that actually really cares about people and has pretty strong morals about not hurting others. She has an interesting dynamic relationship with basically every character and NPC she met and brings a Love Island aspect to the campaign, which I genuinely vibe with.
Overall, not a particularly interesting group of characters to follow.
6) Lore dumps: Yes, we get that there's gods and they're not good or evil, we get that the world existed before the gods, we get that titans were powerful and now they're not as much, we get that Ludinus bad, it's really not that deep, can we stop repeating these claims and actually see some plot progression? Every story segment is party going somewhere, fighting something unrelated and listening to old wise creature #73 tell them the same lore for two hours of game time.
Yeah I had these thoughts for a while, happy to get them off my chest lol. Still, I am watching C3 and am not not planning on stopping, but I will admit 4-Sided Dive has become more entertaining to me than the campaign itself. Anyways, thanks for reading through my rant if you made it here.
Yes, but is it that different to vox machina or mighty nien?
@magepunk1370 Yeah, kind of. My knowledge of VM comes mainly from references in c2 and c3 and the LoVM, but for M9, I can confidently say it was much better organized:
-The party encountered and dealt with threats of correct scale for them: an attack on a village, a fetch quest, a local trafficking ring. They only learn about the world-ending threat around e110.
-There were significantly less lore dumps and the same information was repeated less. We learn that there's an ongoing war, we learn that there's bandits doing trafficking, we learn how a sea serpent got trapped. I do admit, the lore gets much thicker in the last third of the campaign, they deal with a district of a city that teleported itself to the Astral Sea to not be destroyed along with the rest of its city and we do perhaps spend a lot more time than necessary there, but that is mostly revealed it only like the last 20 episodes.
-The characters had arcs. Fjord learned to cope with his masculinity and became okay with expressing himself. Jester brought a god into existence and, over the entire campaign, found him tons of worshippers. Caleb learned to live with the trauma he endured and the loss of his parents. Beau brought justice to the awful people who mistreated her as a child. The only changes in character we see in c3 is when an NPC reveals someone has powerful ancestors (Fearne, Ashton) and that doesn't change whatsoever how they behave. Ashton tried to become a different person, tried caring about others, and it ended up with everyone being mad at him. Laudna is the only other character with something wrong they want to change about themselves and the only change was that for a while, Delilah stopped talking to her, through no action of her own. There is no growth whatsoever and no struggle. I see people sometimes giving them the benefit of the doubt that they have no time to explore character arcs because of the "end of the world" narrative so they can only grow in power, not work on their personalities and that may be the case.
C2 had a clear structure:
-ongoing war that we slowly learn about that will be ongoing and won't really go anywhere
-small local problems that the party can manage as they get to know each other
-character plots at mid-levels, where they grow in power while developing their characters' personalities, focusing on one after the other, changing focus every ~10 episodes
-the party helps end the ongoing war
-a new, apocalyptic threat with deep ties to the party is introduced and the party promptly focuses on stopping it
C3's "let's have a single main plot that requires immediate attention from the party and will span the entire campaign" really stops the characters from growing and at a normal game table would be seen as wide-scale railroading for insane lengths of the campaign
I think putting a ticking clock on things so early on was a mistake by Matt. It went wrong in multiple ways. First, the players _do_ prioritise the main quest over others. That's why FCG's storyline went nowhere. If they had the time, they probably would have gone after Devexian, but they didn't.
But at the same time they just can't play with the urgency this would need in any realistic scenario. They also would be severely underpowered to face such a threat, as the confrontation at the Malleus Key proved.
On top of that, having only 3 episodes a month makes it feel even slower. Campaign 2 was ~23 episodes further along at this point.
I think Matt really should have introduced the Ruidus storyline half way through the campaign, not near the beginning. Or at least put the solstice further back. Having it near the beginning didn't give the characters any time to breathe and develop organically.
Hard agree with point 3.
Valid points.
I think that the biggest issue hasn’t been the characters themselves (more so that we struggle at times to get character development out of them at times) but that in campaigns 1 and 2 the story had multiple arcs eventually culminating in a BBEG whether that be Vecna or the Somnovum, were as this entire campaign has very much felt like we are constantly steered directly to the final BBEG with few smaller arcs or arcs that don’t relate to that final arc (the only arcs that I can think of off the top of my head that have no real connection to the main storyline of Ruidus are the Heartmoor arc and maybe the Jrusar arc at the beginning) everything else has either been directly connected or as a result (like the Apogee split, or the recent team bonding in the Feywild), and I think the fact that they went in with the final arc basically from the beginning of the campaign just makes it seem long and drawn out in a way that isn’t engaging.
That makes sense. Because when you already know who and what the big bad is from the beginning, it kind of seems like a waste of time to do any personal sidequests or anything
Yeah, that's what I detailed in my comment: Victories and arcs are very important, if your party successfully free the town but "The big bad evil guy is actually still around and if you don't take care of 'em they'll enslave the whole world", it's harder to genuinely let off steam and compartmentalise that part as "finished"
I think the establishment of their being a time frame is the issue, there are plenty of stories where you know the villain from the very beginning but you don't have a ticking clock in which to try and defeat them, Eragon is a good example you have the king that's the bbeg, but there's multiple other things that come up and resolve within that whole story. Harry Potter is another. In C3 we know the villains but there's always the perception of the ticking clock, the characters run from almost every situation instead of standing ground. Like they probably would have won against the gang and the leader if they hadn't worn themselves down both hp and spells trying to just run away.
Isn’t this the first time that they’re open about making references to previous campaigns because from what I heard, they minimalize the amount of references to the previous campaign during campaign two
I tend to binge critical role every few months then fall off then repeat, breaks are ok ❤
I was a huge campaign 1 and a massive campaign 2 fan. I used to listen as I fell asleep so I would take a whole week listening so it wasn’t really about the time commitment. But I dropped campaign 3 like 11 episodes (still over 40hrs) in because it just simply wasn’t interesting. It’s also not that everyone seemed like a Jester, it’s that they all felt very detached as characters. I as the audience couldn’t connect with them. This happens a lot in normal DnD too when characters chose the wildest selection of races and classes. It takes out the grounding of the character. Even if they have loads of back story, I’m not going to get to it because I never connected up front.
“Too many jesters theory” - C2 had the *right* number of Jesters.
C2's problem was it had too many Percys. Jester stood out because she wasn't a Percy in a party of Percys.
@@silverwolfe3636 Too many Percys??
Caleb was the only Percy. The rest of them definitely not Percy.
Jester stood out because her design was extremely unique. Fjord, Yasha, Caleb, Mollymauk, Beau - all of their designs are pretty run of the mill. Nott's design was unique but subtle and Caduceus' design was, in my opinion, adjacent to Jesters. Both Laura and Taliesin created fantastic concepts and executed them so well.
So when we look at C3, we have Travis playing a unique Werewolf Gnome, Marisha playing a unique Undead Ghastly thing, Sam playing a unique robot automaton, Ashley playing a unique Fey... It's not that these characters aren't great, it's that there is too much uniqueness.
@@XoIoRouge Fjord's tragic backstory about his father figure disappearing being tied to dark magic? You're right, not a percy. Yasha's tragic backstory about being exiled from her home and her constant struggle with her inner darkness? Nope, totally not a percy. Beau being a high society know-it-all rejecting her higher social status background? My bad, that is nothing like Percy. Of course, you already agree about Caleb. Mollymauk was barely a character and the same could easily be said of Cad.
The briarwoods was the best story beat of any critical role campaign and it is universally loved by players and audience. Matt took that arc straight from one of his PC's backstories, a dark and tragic one with open endedness. Funny how the next campaign everyone had a dark and tragic backstory with open-endedness just baiting Matt to give their character's the briarwoods treatment. Vox Machina was easily the best because the characterization of the PC's didn't really come from colorful designs or rare races or tragic and dark backstories ( exception - percy) but from letting them naturally grow together through in game actions. For many of the of players, it was their first campaign and thus their characters were blank canvases ready to be painted with adventure. C2 was full of characters that came pre-painted.
As far as unique design, who the hell cares about design? This is a tabletop roleplaying game (or at least it started as one) and character design doesn't really matter since the character's appearance is in your head. Design is extremely superficial and such surface level traits do not properly replace personality.
@@silverwolfe3636 FJORD IS NO WHERE NEAR A PERCY! His father figure was tied to dark magic woogabooga. Percy's entire purpose was his family. Fjord had diluted his purposes around game mechanics that he liked. Just because he has a doom and gloom plotthread in there somewhere doesn't make him a percy.
Yasha is a half percy, I had an earlier paragraph that I deleted which gave Yasha some credit but I figure I'd save it for further conversations. She's a half Percy because she's on another side of this same coin, where she has no purposes. Percy's purpose was his family, fjord's was diluted, Yasha had none. Because the actor had an inconsistent schedule so her character had to be a side character.
Beau's character development and existence didn't match Percy's to me. Yeah, they have similar ideas (theres only like 5 core ideas for all characters anyway), but Marisha played Beau so well that she ended up becoming her own character. You're telling me "Beau is another Percy" then you're missing something. IDK What, but you are.
Cadeusus was BARELY a character? He was around for 80% of the campaign, had two(?) subplots fully dedicated to him, and actually branched off a normal situation (not edgelord).
I do agree with your following paragraph mostly though. Brairwoods was amazing, the "empty shells" of C1 compared to the *not-so-empty* but still SHELLS of C2 (my only disagreement), and how Matt was the one who let their backstories manifest.
Last paragraph seems to be a miscommunication. When I use the word "design" I am talking about that character as a whole. Not just looks, or sound, but their beliefs, purposes, goals in life. As a DM, when I **design** the BBEG, I'm not talking about what he looks like. I'm talking about why he's doing bad things, how he's doing it, etc. Design includes mechanical gameplay as well. ALL of the elements that make up a character is how that character is designed, and I'm including all of those elements when I am comparing them to Percy.
I wonder what might have happened in the last few years that might've allowed a longform series like Critical Role to flourish so well. You'd think people would need a lot of extra time on their hands for months or even years, maybe stuck at home or otherwise unable to go outside or hang out with other people. That sure would be a convenient explanation.
RPG is for the players, NOT the viewers.
I strongly feel that this is a result of the final fantasy effect. When both C1 and C2 start small and then become so epic, it is hard to start small again. That's why Calamity was so incredible, it was a 4 episode event that dropped us right into the gargantuan finale, and it was so masterfully done that we didn't need the context of the first 100 episodes.
There is a lot of fluff in C1 and C2, but we don't remember it because we can think of the whole scope of the campaign and we were so enraptured that those little moments were fun, not boring. There have been some incredible scenes in C3 that I think back on as fondly as defeating Thordak or tricking Asharni with a cupcake.
The problem is that the viewers change over the course of 8 years thousands of hours of content, but they don't realize it and they blame the show for getting stale. I can't say they're wrong, but I do disagree.
What are you even talking about? They barely have any time for side quests cause Matt has constant ticking clocks on them.
I do believe Matt said he was going to be truly testing their game knowledge and what not in C3, whereas it was definitely a lot more "lenient" in the first two.
Ticking clocks somewhat makes sense, as it mostly keeps them focused.
I think the ticking clocks are the 'problem.' Pretty much everything since the solstice has felt like a side quest, because there was that massive ticking clock in the background. Malaysmyrr, the Dawnfather's temple, flowers for keyleth, The shattered isles, Raishan's shard, and the Feywild. They've all advanced the main plot to one degree or another, but there's just so much it kind of undermines the urgent vibe the Hell's had before they reunited. No judgment, pacing a dnd game is different than pacing TV show, but I can see why some people prefer the M9's one quest at a time approach
@@RaccoonThrowdown I can agree to that. Seems they went for a more structured approach this time around. t definitely makes it not as good as C2 (imo), and it doesn't have me as hooked, but I do still watch.
yeah this channel just constantly floods the feed with takes like this. “crit role jumps the gun, crit role is losing viewers, crit role is absolutely definitely going to end campaign 3 in ___ episodes (which didn’t happen by the way)” it’s just kinda annoying. lots of clickbaity practices to dig in the cr branding
I mean.. if they can afford to explore backstories (or as I call it "fuck around") for 20 episodes between learning about the evil plan to destroy the world and actually partaking in the battle to stop the apocalypse, lose the battle and then watch the enemies walk through a red desert for further 30 episodes, I don't think ticking clock is an issue.
Ok but season 3 is 4 months late and we don't even have a trailer, is everything ok?
In my case, I watched so much episodes back to back that I got burnt out, I had to step away, and watch different things, cleanse my pallet and now I’m back.
I don’t care what they play. Stop comparing it to the standards of a tv show. Certain people like certain play styles. Just like your table isn’t allowed to judge your character. It is not the communities job to judge theirs.
That’s the problem, people want it to be a tv show, not an actual play game. They want the story to be the main objective and in any good TTRPG the story happens as a side effect of playing the game. Plot is something that’s happening in the background as players react to the DM and each other in real time.
Me? I like watching it for the gameplay. I like the story, too, don’t get me wrong, but I watch because I like watching people play D&D.
I do however think there's a difference between judging and simply having an opinion. I personally am not that invested in C3 and it's interesting for me to dissect why. I LOVE the idea of Ruidas and the story Matt wants to tell, but tbh I do in fact think it's a little too goofy sometimes. The characters, I mean. It's hard for me to get invested
Hey they’re the ones losing viewership. Critical Role is a business through and through (they literally are incorporated ) and if they want to keep losing their baseline by running a shitty third campaign that’s literally on them
i enjoy their “side quests” and characters from other campaigns and new guests joining, it makes the story more fun and easy to consume. i personally don’t want to watch the whole team struggling to survive because people want them to go on the “main quest with no one to save them” that’s too much stress and emotions for me, thank you
They shared an opinion. The CR community needs to toughen up a bit. You act like they insulted the players as people. Criticism is fair. Contrary to fanboys beliefs, these people aren’t gods of entertainment and not everyone has to mindlessly goon abet the show.
After the blast, separation, and reunion… I was game for the full tilt run at the endgame scenario. Gotta stop the big bads from waking up the god killer!
But we’ve been circling that drain for the last, what seems like, year. And I’m over the 3-4 hour long episodes of pseudo character growth. That we’ve already been through.
Yeat it's been 30 episodes since they lost the battle of the Malleus Key (which was said to unleash Predathos if lost, but didn't) and 18 episodes since the characters got together, yet the bad guys with the ability to teleport are slowly walking through the red desert this whole time, so there is no rush whatsoever and we can explore the characters' backstories (i.e. what flavor of Chosen One they are, worst trope ever).
The plot itself isn't interested in Ruidus, Ludinus and Predathos, why should we be?
I just keep thinking about how much more Brennan gets done with more chaos at his table and less time.
Just doesn't seem like an efficient or interesting game anymore.
i just tried to watch their first campaign from ep 1 and it’s copyright struck… on it’s own content…. i’m so confused but the animations in the first episode if season 1 are all blurred/censored
I do somewhat agree. I tapered off lately and so I'm back to about episode 80, but it has felt that C3 has been really drawn out. One part of me feels that the characters are TOO fleshed out in terms of what players know about them.
For me, a big thing I enjoy is when characters have unknowns to them that the players didn't think about. It's discovering these things about them emotionally/personality wise, typically on the spot, that can change and evolve them. But coming into C3, a lot of the characters feel very "complete" in terms of what the players know about their own characters and where they want them to go.
Also, a big issue is that there have been no mini achievements. When it came to Thordak you had the other conclave members. With Vecna you had obtaining Godly powers. But when it comes to Ludinus... it's been hundreds of hours of dealing with other stuff that kind of pertains to the "We're running out of time" plot.
It's an unfortunate side effect of being split up. The pacing slowed down tremendously, and the bounce back turned from "LET'S GEAR UP AND TAKE HIM DOWN" to "Let's do all the side quests before we face the final boss again"
The saddest part is that individually, these side quests are really cool! Entering the Grey Valley and fighting demons. Exploring the Shattered Teeth. Getting Titan Lore and finding the hearts of Titans. If we completely ignore the Ruidus plot I am LOVING what is happening. But it honestly feels like a chore that's been put off for a long time now and so you just have to sigh and take care of it.
All these things don't bother me but rather the ridiculously slow pace. In 4 hours you should be able to have more Than 1 combat or one major conversation.
Same, I noticed that their talking speeds have slowed in C3. I know that happens as people age, but I also think a lot of it could be avoided, I just don't see how. I don't think Campaign 2 had this issue nearly as much. I have to have it on x2 speed now, and I still can't keep attention.
Same- the narrating & most of the characters & the music are in slow breathy tones that honestly put you right to sleep….. love them, but thats honest
Also you should be able to fit 4 games into a month, if that's your job. They were able to do it when this wasn't their main job. Why not now?
With only 3 games a month the pacing for the viewer is even slower.
That is… that’s how dnd works. Combat is long as hell especially with large parties. And if the characters wanna RP talking to someone then let ‘em. Sure they’re telling a story but they’re also playing a game.
@@4203105They only do 3 games a month because they post Candela on the last week.
I'm not connecting with the characters like I did season 2. There was something that made them feel more grounded, in my view. Even with all the bat-shittery they were involved in, there was still a realism to it, and that plays a factor in my interest.
Jester - Lonely kid who played pranks mostly harmless pranks.
Fjord - Confused about what it meant to be masculine.
Molly (long may he reign) - Charlatan with a heart of gold.
Nott - Mother trying to get back to get family.
Caleb - Mental abuse survivor coming to terms with his anguish.
Yasha - Outcast (one of the weaker characters, just because Ashley didn't get as much time to play as the rest, i feel)
Beau - dealing with feelings of rejection by her father.
Most of these are very down to earth feelings, that people can connect with.
C3 on the other hand...
Chet - Horny werewolf who was outed from his toy business. Slips into dark places sometimes.
Fearne (who i actually love) - Horny kleptomaniac fae whose grandmother is one of the most powerful fae and can literally give them a retreat just whenever.
FCG - Johnny 5/Gizmoduck who was basically a murder bot in his former life and still slips into dark places sometimes.
Laudna (who I also love) - Vessel for C1 big bad, who temps her into dark places sometimes.
Imogen (who is somehow one of the most normal characters in how Laura plays her) - Psychic chosen one who sometimes slips into dark places and destroys a city block.
Ashton - (which i wanted to name my son 19 years ago when he was born) - chronic pain induced bad attitude causes him to go to dark places sometimes.
Orym - The most grounded character, and honestly one of the most endearing since he's relatable.
Overall, i feel like this campaign would have fit better in a horror setting. It's like if you take The Wolfman, the bride of Frankenstein, Carrie, the Terminator, Pan, and a golem, give them a straight man, and slap them into a Final Fantasy game with too many side quests.
I still listen to it. I still like the players. I also wonder if they're losing interest in 5e, and it's bleeding over into the game subconsciously. I don't know. I'll still support them.
Molly never worked for me. He had some of the same trappings of what you describe about campaign 3. He was too over the top. When he died and was replaced by Cad it was a godsend. With that calm and subdued character it brought the crazy/normal scale into balance.
In campaign 3 everybody is whacky and/or crazy except for Orim (maybe Imogen) and it's just too much.
@@4203105honestly yeah! I feel like, if Molly hadn’t died, campaign 2 would have ended up a lot like how campaign 3 is right now.
And, I might get crucified here, but if I’m being honest, I’m not sure Taliesin knew what he was doing with Molly. I feel like most of his “golden hearted” description was done after his death. Caduceus was masterfully done though, and honestly my favourite character in the campaign, maybe even in any of the campaigns. He really was the single piece that made M9 feel so grounded and genuine.
Giving it a horror setting might’ve fixed a lot of the problems people have with it. Oh, the characters are running away from problems a lot, well then have that be the reasonable reaction that reinforces the tone. Also starting with an apocalyptic countdown, but exploring character moments in the midst of horror adds layers instead of diminishing the threat.
omg at last a safe space where i can admit i never really cared for molly 💀 caduceus is my king though
“Who sometimes slips into dark places” oh my god thank you, I think you may have hit the nail on the head for me specifically. At the core, they all feel generally the same.
It's the characters. I love the might nein. They made me laugh and cry and I BINGED EVERY EPISODE in 3 months after seeing the legend of vox on Prime.
That's the best kind of campaign, with friends, where it's not as serious even when a character does drop
I’ve been listening to it as a podcast as of late perhaps that’s a new trend leading to this outcome?
I do the same. I miss some of the facial expressions though :)
Mostly have it running in the background while working on my DnD games 😂
Came here to say this. I'm an avid listener via podcast and keep up with it that way.
I was about to say the same thing!
I put many hours in on the podcast version which isn't a format mentioned in this video!
I think what it is is that the campeign is focusing so heavily on ruidus, we are really only seeing Imogens story. learning anything else about ashton or fcg etc feels like filler, unlike with mighty nein or vox machina where each character had their moment, to be truly focused on.
I remember Sam joking that Laura (Imogen) was the main character and she got annoyed… but like… she def is??
Honestly she's the only one I'm actually interested in because she's directly tied to the campaign. Everyone else does in fact feel like they're shoehorned in
Hate that I agree with this…but yea it’s kinda frustrating her development is tied to major story beats while everyone else is well….not
I’ve seen people say this before but I don’t agree. Campaign 2’s main villain was focused about Mollymauk’s story but that didn’t make Molly the main character (he died early, but Matt talked about how that villain was supposed to be reoccurring, coming after Molly to get his body back. Would that have made him the main character?). The main villains in campaign 1 were based around Percy’s story, but that didn’t make him the main character. Not to mention, the whole Ruidus thing connects directly to three of their backstories (Fearne, Imogen, and Orym), not just Imogen’s, FCG’s connection to the Changebringer makes him more invested in the godeater story than most of the characters, and Ashton and Fearne were the ones that just got major high powered level ups that would seem more fitting for the “main character”. I honestly think a lot of the “main character” complaints come from sexism. There’s a long history of critical role’s fandom getting mad about the female characters having any extra focus on them.
I think a lot of ppl have issues with the pacing but I actually don't have a major issue with it...I love all the lore we are getting as well as tying the loose threads from previous campaigns together..
I think a big part of the issue too is how much homebrew they've done with their classes. My partner and I used to watch it together all the time and he doesn't understand what's happening anymore so he's fully disconnected from it. We've lost something that we initially bonded over
I'd also like to mention some people (like myself) wait for the VOD and will sometimes pile up a few episodes so they can watch them all at once, or just like to sleep through them
doesn’t matter, let them have fun
Sure, but it's still okay to point out that something has issues. Even if you don't believe it does, that doesn't change the fact that C3 hasn't resonated with a lot of long time CR fans.
Okay, they can have as much fun as they want, the video is just stating the fact the engagement has dropped.
@@AKNismo it doesn't matter. They aren't playing dnd for you, if they are having fun your opinion doesn't really make a difference.
They literally stream it my guy. Yeah they play it for themselves but still. @aFoolsMartyr
I mean it literally matters? This is a business isn't it? I swear if you ask any one of them and ask if they care if people enjoy what they're doing or not then every single one of them would say yes. Not for vanity reason, not even for business reasons, but because they are creators that create things for people to watch. If they are proud of it great, but to say what other people think don't matter when you literally put it out for everyone to watch and PAY them to do is ridiculous
I think the fact that they have 18 k viewers... for 4 streams in two days talks lots about how they adapted their schedules for different time zones and needs, if you see the first stream you see the low viewer count, however there is a second, third and fourth stream after that and they all have views and on twitch are over 200 thousand views on repetitions, going back to work may not help the people follow live, but they definitely continue seeing them.
Yeah I’m with the first theory all of them being to chaotic
I think more people watch shorts now, because it requires less brain energy. Like what I’m doing right now. 😂
I like the show, but I think there were two main errors.
Othman killed half of the team but everyone revivifies, what was the last time a player character died? What is at stake here?
The other problem is that they teleported from the key to random location. You don’t throw the hero’s to Antarctica when they are facing the bad guy in action movie. It’s destroys the narrative.
Yeah, that episode was a *_bloodbath._*
Then, within 3 episodes, the party is back up and running like in never happened. Hell, it was a net positive for Laudna, who was saved by plot bs because they didn't wanna roll a new character for Marisha. I was expecting/hoping for 3 whole new characters to be introduced.
I understand why Matt let them use the revivifys they had but they should NOT have been able to bring back Laudna, just because they had a plan for her character doesn't mean she should be immune from consequences. When Molly dies in C2 they left him in a shallow grave by the road. And I'm so glad he died because then we got the Cad man
@@tiedyedbeard3439 Right? That was my biggest problem with C1, as well. No one ever stayed gone. Hell, the only character that stayed gone and had it mean something was the character of the problem player. Molly going out in C2 showed that the world Matt created (well more very *_very_* heavily borrowed from Elder Scrolls and Diablo lore) wasn't a safe one. And the life of an adventuring mercenary wasn't one with a guaranteed long life expectancy. People could be there one day and gone the next. It hit hard, and actually left a lasting impression on the rest of the characters.
@tiedyedbeard3439 Honestly it seems mostly like tie over from homegames or their groups memtality towards playing who you want. Way back when it was happening on the 4 sided dives, liam said how he was ready with a new character and fully willing, but he got revived so it was not necissary. Mirisha wanted to keep playing so matt made an avenue for it.
Its a valid point but mostly seems up to prefrance in play.
I think based on more recent things with revivify and other resurrection spells not working, they might pivot to a less reviveable setting with C4.
Honestly there are a solid 20+ hours after storming the Key where the plot's just spinning its wheels and going nowhere. Plus it feels like they should have run out of time and failed, but they somehow haven't, so the high-level stakes have deflated too.
4 hours of viewing is a pretty major commitment... and when literally nothing happens of consequence through an entire episode, going back next week becomes a bit of a chore. But for me, it's the obviously planned/forced one-on-one "deep" conversations that seems to happen every single episode, which feels like nothing more than an excuse to make sure it achieves that full, excruciating, 4-hour target.
This show started as a bunch of friends playing a game together. Even if Critical Role went belly up, they've made a ton of money and they're still just friends playing a game together. They already did more than they ever expected to, and there's no infighting or drama etc
In every DnD game I have played, our party tends to do all the side content or do something that causes side content and we get side tracked a bit before trying to move the story along. The whole point is, it's their story let them play it how they want. That's what makes it special to watch.
i think is the slow, some time 3 episode and in reality nothing happen
I like RP, I like combat, I like tomfoolery, but I don't like them getting so sidetracked that a shopping trip takes 3 hours and doesn't involve funny bits, character growth, or story progression. CR is just super slow, and there are no penalties for it. After all, the world shouldn't stop for meta gaming cosplaying as roleplay.
They're all Orion, now. . .
It probably didn't help that their Exandria has become more modernized and they almost immediately started with platinum pieces.
The solstice episode was the biggest plot climax for a show I have seen, but then the show kinda didn’t have any more definitive story arcs.
The issue with the campaign is that in the 60 episodes I've seen, no character is relevant to the story except Imogen, and kind of Orym. Fcg had like a 2 episode arc of being kinda relevant because Dancer showed up, Chetney had a couple hours dedicated to his character with the one lycan group. Fearne met her parents in one episode. I cant even remember if anything has happened with Ashton. Laudna kind of had some backstory relevance when she was dead. This campaign really is just a story about one girl and 6 random people
That's IT! Thank you. I didn't know how to express my thoughts about C3 before reading your comment. Also, the story I was most interested in is FCG's ancient history, and I'm not sure they will ever dive deeply into that.
@@lyn3325 That's really a problem with Matt putting a clock on things that early. Without it, I'm sure they would have gone after Devexian. That's also something I'm really sad about. I would have loved to get to know mor about Aeor.
You haven't paid well enough attention, then.
I stopped watching because Ashton is barely a character beyond swearing 3 times a sentence to not make a point at all, ever.
I’m glad I’m not the only person in the world who finds “useless swears as filler words” to be the farthest thing from an endearing character trait.
@@LetTalesBeTold I glad I’m not alone either
@@LetTalesBeTold All of the characters are just kinda boring. Chetney was a joke character, by Travis's own admission. The joke has been told, so there's nothing left to do. Imogen is just Jean Grey, but even more boring (if that's even possible). FCG was made based on a meme, and he plays like a meme. Laudna is just "Ooo spooky~" personified, and that's not enough to carry a character.
@@Zac_Frost so for me, I liked the Exandria Unlimited characters on the whole. (Orym and Fearne are perfectly decent in their own right, but if Dorian had stayed in the campaign longer I probably would have kept watching til he left, lol). And Laudna, idk, if she were the only “quirky weird” character in the cast, she probably would have shone more, because I really enjoyed her (except for the kinky marionettes bit.) I like the contrast of kooky and tragic.
Everybody else though, yeah, not my cuppa. I wanted to love Ashton, but all we got was grumpy swears and everybody checking their pronoun usage (which even if you’re about that, it is so annoying to hear people have to correct themselves constantly); I thought I would adore FCG from the concept, but Sam managed to give us quite possibly my least favorite Crit Role PC ever. Imogen is Main Character Syndrome, the Character, and Chetney’s half amusing and half utter cringe. It’s no offense meant to the players, and I get that probably 85% of that or more is personal taste rather than anything remotely objective, but it just feels like you have to push yourself to like these characters despite their flaws instead of because of them. 🤷♀️
Easily the absolute worst character in all 3 campaigns
Is that number just accounting for live views, or later viewings as well? Does it account for the viewership being split between twitch and youtube?
Buddy did you somehow... forget why their views went up so extremely in the first place? Wtf
I'm happy they are having fun. As long as they are getting paid enough to keep doing it then I don't mind. Like, if it does get "bad" enough to where no one is watching them anymore, then I'm sure it'd be a huge relief on their parts to have it just be them again.
This entire arc is too planned. Theres no stakes, not because of the saves, but the entire production schedule; you don't have a "and Jocasta was there for some reason" moment, because the cameos are baked in. The rails are such that even if someone dies for real, it won't hit because it's just the script.
Yeah…. It’s for sure scripted. No way professional voice actors and writers and directors playing for 10 years and not using a script are suddenly using a script. I’m guessing you don’t watch the show. They must be the greatest actors to ever live to fake every reaction they have for 3 1/2
When someone dies in any D&D game there's usually a conversation about whether the player wants to bring that character back. There's plenty of stakes.
@@tylerschoen5643 I have the opinion specifically because I watch the show a lot. This season is on the rails MUCH more than in the past. Which is understandable because of the increased scope, the Amazon deals, etc as CR has grown. But there are clearly planned story beats that are getting hit, both of the overall plot and for character development, so there's really no tension.
@@arcclite1144 yeah I mean having overall comparing goals and having goals for your character are needed on a recorded show so that they can have a coherent game and have character progression. I don’t think they plan 99% of what they are going to say but I think they often plan on saying something. Nothing wrong with letting your player know they may encounter an rival enemy and have a dialogue. I don’t think they plan who is going to die but obviously they have planned characters or being present and other things alike
Yeah, part of the fun in dnd is the chaos and unpredictability
Well I feel like these numbers are also affected by the fact that they don't stream every week anymore
I'd be interested to hear your view on their viewership across CZcams Uploads, VOD and podcast listeners - I've been following their stories for years but very rarely watched the online streams as it doesn't fit with my schedule. Are their views up/down across all platforms?
Keep in mind, i think Matt found a good groove with the 5e system by playing characters up to about level 15ish (where the game balancing starts to fall apart), then level up the characters off screen and run reuinion one shots.
I don’t understand why some fans get so upset whenever another viewer criticises the campaign. Sure, it is “their game”. They get to play it however they want, as long as they’re having fun. But we could say that about any art: “it’s their film! They get to direct it however they want!” Absolutely. But that doesn’t mean we as viewers are not allowed to express why the film, or campaign in this case, isn’t as gripping as the others, or why we’re not as interested anymore. I’ve been obsessed with this show for years, went to the live show in London and had an awesome time! But I can’t bring myself to watch much of c3, due to several of the reasons listed in this video. And that matters, because Critical Role is a team running a business: they want to sell merch, want us to watch the animated series, want people to pay for subscriptions, and they want companies (sometimes questionable ones 😑) to sponsor their streams. They *employ* people, that they presumably want to look out for. If anything, I think they’d love to know why they’re losing viewers! Doesn’t mean they should stop doing whatever feels right for them in order to just pander to an audience, but I do suspect some of the things viewers see as flaws to the story can actually bother the players, too… Sometimes that happens in a campaign. It’s ok, and pointing out that the story isn’t resonating with as many people as the previous ones isn’t hate, we still love these nerdy ass voice actors.
Exactly. It’s wild the knee jerk, seemingly machine automated responses you will ALWAYS get EVERY time for saying anything critical about this show. These people are weird and zealous
@@mercurydylan899 Was your response also not a wild, machine automated, kneejerk reaction? (and to answer that for you, it was.)
Both sides are exactly the same. You're not exempt from regurgitating generic, overused responses.
@@kugetsu I take it you have made it a habit to stick up for CR and this felt wronged by my comment. Very well. You do you.
the reason why i’ve fallen off (i get back on the train every now and then) is because i’ve gotten busy with life. When i started i was a high school student who had so much time to spend. Now i work a 2 week in, 2 week out job where i work 12 hours a day.
Consider:
They are friends just wanting to have fun as a group, and that's their core reason to come together and play. If they are having a great time, that's all that should matter
Granted, I still watch CR and have a blast at it. But they've become "high-stakes, high intensity" quite quick and kept at it for a long time, and I can't lie, that is serious ground for fatigue.
(Exhibit A: the Pathfinder campaign I was part of, where there was NO downtime whatsoever, constant threats with no feeling of victory, and advancing our personal quests only meant we were getting trouble because "you can't do adventure and [personal quest]!". For HALF A DECADE. I nearly cut my losses then and there and wasn't the only one, many players had breakdowns at the table or just ceased caring about the world)
Don't read me wrong: This isn't at all a critique or a "Things were better when [...]". They are still a very entertaining show, and the example I gave was extreme. I was telling the vibe I'm getting now, not a reasoning why I would stop watching.
Most of these "issues" are personal preference and nitpicking imho. The fact that the 3rd campaign is so hilarious keeps me coming back. As for the sidequests, are the people complaining even D&D players? Because I really wouldn't want to play with people who are that critical. Matt's #1 concern is that his friends have a good time and that makes for a good time. To heck with the detractors. I personally am loving it.
Most people complaining are people that want other people to play D&D the way THEY play it, which isn't how I imagine most other people do. Like... you're watching someone play a TTRPG, you should be mature enough a person to understand that everyone players differently.
That said, I've never really ever watched these guys since I can't sit still for hours on end to watch people just talking. I'd rather play my own campaigns. I just know people being silly and petty when I see it.
Considering you used imho you didn’t stay very humble. I’d drop the H next time.
@@samdavies6325 that was a completely nonsensical comment to attack a post you disagree with. Okay then.
"Hilarious". How autistic are you?
I think its good and still enjoy it and of course the fun of the players is most important but its definitely the one I've focused the least on besides when Laudna died, That whole mini arc was really enjoyable.
It just hasn't hit the same as C1 and C2 Still great background content though I can barely remember what they are doing half the time lol Still excited to see what happens of course (no spoilers past ep50 cause thats where I am)
People don’t have time to watch Twitch and CZcams all day like they did during the pandemic. I’m sure many (including me) listen to the podcast version instead while commuting etc. Critical role is doing just fine.
Actually starting to miss the pandemic, damn😂
"Everybody but Liam is playing a joke character" wat lol. Just goes to show a lot of the critics of CR just say words without actual any meaning. Even Jester wasn't a joke character, the comparison to her didn't even make sense.
I love Bells Hells! Started with them and now have watched C1 and C2 currently playing catch up to C3. I love all the cameos thrown in. What’s happening in C3 is affecting the whole of Exandria. Why wouldn’t there be cameos of other heroes coming in to help? It’s like Superman sure he can do a lot, but sometimes he needs help from the Justice League.
Well put and welcome aboard Critter!
I really like campaign three and have had no issues with the story. I’ve just been really busy with school, work, and other stuff for the past 2 years, and only have time to catch up on weekends and breaks, and my other friends who watch cr have a similar problem. I know other fans don’t enjoy campaign 3 as much but it’s obvious that the cast is having fun so I’m going to keep watching, just 20 episodes behind.
It's been a yr and I'm completed c1 and I'm almost done with c2. I also have been watching the series on Amazon. Additionally, I have a collection of CR puzzles and some merch items. So I agree with most comments that I may not watch it live, but I'll get there.
I didn't understand anything you were talking about but my prayers go out to those most affected