Talking Tarot, Art, and Yoav Ben-Dov 🤔
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- čas přidán 13. 08. 2024
- Sheesh! Somebody douse me with cold water - it was very hot and I was in a strop.
…In this video I offer a critique SPECIFICALLY of Yoav Ben-Dov’s discussion of the history of Tarot in his book “Tarot - The Open Reading”. I break down the issues with various points he makes and then get into a discussion of the art history in and around the time period in which Tarocchi emerged.
NOTE: this videos is not academic resource or teaching material. It relies heavily on secondary sources (art historical textbooks, essentially) and any discussion of primary source material is still conjectural. I got a bit sloppy about saying ‘tarot’ instead of ‘tarocchi’ etc etc etc.
Time Stamps:
00:00 Introduction and approximate outline.
03:55 Critique of Yoav Ben-Dov - deconstructing some of the problems Ben-Dov’s claims about Tarot history.
17:16 Voiceover on the range of historical manuscripts and art historical background.
19:57 [Drawing footage starts.]
22:00 Private devotional art and technique, image composition, how that relates to established cultural references.
23:11 Viewer orientation and direction of gaze - question re. MARSEILLE-style cards.
24:27 Depictions of Hell - Romanesque mss and tympana (12th c) and DEVIL card.
25:48 Woodcuts and early printing.
27:00 Mention of early playing cards.
28:25 Dürer’s “Samson and the Lion” and STRENGTH card
29:08 Background of Dürer’s image and connection (RWS) tarot cards.
29:45 Early engraving.
30:08 THE MASTER OF THE PLAYING CARDS and his “Queen of Wild Men” image.
32:01 Social variety and order in mss lettering - engraved “Letter N” etc.
34:20 Closing thoughts about art, innovation, and why all of this matters in Tarot.
Books used/read aloud:
“Romanesque Art” by Andreas Petzold, 1995
“Codices illustres: the world’s most famous illuminated manuscripts 400 to 1600” by Ingo F. Walther, 2018 (pub. TASCHEN)
“The Northern Renaissance” by Jeffrey Chipps Smith, 2004 (pub. Phaidon)
“Tarot: the open reading” by Yoav Ben-Dov, 2011 (pub. Yoav Ben-Dov)
Other useful resources:
Any of the guidebooks that come with the US Games repro-Tarocchi decks written by Stuart R. Kaplan!!! Much more yummy detail.
“Dürer” by Norbert Wolf, 2016 (Taschen)
In Our Time podcasts - ‘Renaissance Astrology’ (early Melvin!!??); ‘Sistine Chapel’; ‘Albrecht Dürer’
Check out Rima Staine's art -
rimastaines.com
hedgespokenpress.com
Instragram -
@tilsamka
@hedgespoken
(Not sponsored or affiliated at all - I just love her work!)
Outro music played by me - a silly little modern rendition of a 14th c. saltarello.
I'm really happy I found your channel! I enjoyed this video, especially its second part. When it comes to your critique of Ben-Dov, I will offer a critique of your critique on one point really. Ben-Dov is right to say that TdM images have remained remarkably well preserved with little variation over time - they are highly conservative. In fact, since the 17th century when TdMs emerged (as far as we know now), only two types ever appeared - Type I exemplified by Noblet and Type II by Conver. The differences between the two types are actually miniscule with practically all relevant elements being nearly identical. All the other historical decks, earlier or latter, like the Soprafino, Visconti-Sforza, Vieville, 1JJ Swiss, Vachetta etc. are not Tarot de Marseille decks, and neither are the regional Italian variations like the tarocchino or minchiate. They belong to other groups or are just (pretty) pip decks. So, he is right that there is very little variation in Marseille imagery over the centuries because he is not talking about all those historical pip decks in general, but a very specific kind. Collectors are only now beginning to consider "Type III" Marseille because contemporary authors combine the elements of the two but that's a very recent development, as in the last few decades. Another thing - and this is not a critique because I agree that Ben-Dov didn't quite phrase that well, but you didn't either when you said that ALL these images were commonly found at the time. I would be interested to know of just one church where a female pope was depicted - I am not as well versed in art history like you are, so I could be missing something. SOME of the images were common. Giotto's Scrovegni chapel contains about half of the trumps if not more, if you closely look at it, but this would not have been widely available to everyone, obviously, it was a private chapel. The depictions found in most churches are of Christian virtues like the Temperance or Justice, etc. I think personally it's a mistake to think of Tarot de Marseille as art at all. They were mass market decks of their time made to be used and discarded. They have very little artistic value, Noblet and Dodal are just hideously made - I love them and use them every day, but they are not good art if you compare them to woodcuts of the time or god forbid non-Marseille decks like those painted by Bonifacio Bembo. Because they were such crappy works, it's all the more miraculous that they were so conservative in terms of their evolution over the centuries. There's an interview with Ben-Dov available in one of the books of interviews that Enrique Enriquez conducted with tarot researchers and readers where he explains the imagery in terms of a kind of "natural selection", something akin to what you say: those were culturally understood allegories so they remained stable. Sorry for the long comment, I am sometimes unable to be concise. :-)
Oh I really appreciate this! No need to apologise for not being concise - nuancing a topic naturally requires more words. Your critique is great too because I tend to get quite uncomfotable with the idea that people might assume I'm more teacherly and polished than I am! I totally agree about how I said "all". In watching back over it recently, I was rather annoyed with myself for that bit. And I also think you are right to better distinguish TdM and earlier fine art decks or images. I've been thinking I'd like to get to proper grips with the development/consistency of Marseille-style decks specifically and I'm definitely going to check out the interview you mentioned. Thanks so much!
The origin of the neo-Marseille movent is the book "the way of tarot" by Jodorowsky. BenDov was a student of Jodorowsky.
Their intention was to free tarot from the Golden Dawn systems (RWS THOTH etc) to offer an alternative. What we need to understand is that Jodorowsky is a surrealist and that surrealism is not just an art movement BUT also a theory for revolution that contains Marxism (historical materialism) and psychoanalytical theories.
...and this means that the neo-Marseille will make up new theories instead of
exploring/studying the (pre golden dawn) worldviews of the people that created the tarot deck in north Italy.
I believe that freeing tarot from the golden dawn system is a noble cause BUT i disapprove of the psychoanalytical methods and terminology take-over of the tarot universe.
I believe the key is to go back and study the worldviews of the peoples in medieval and renaissance europe and the mediterranea, from their point of view.
This is a very intriguing and controversial subject. Very good video!
I don't tend to mind the psychoanalytical approach but I agree that to lean too far in that direction, to the exclusion of other methods/traditions of approach, presents a problem... an opportunity missed, really. Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment!
Very interesting video essay and beautiful artwork. I love listening to people 'rant' about their passions. And you did it while acknowledging gaps in your knowledge and providing resources for further study.
I love this comment precisely I care very much about acknowledging the gaps in my knowledge. It can feel weird to do it (it feels antithetical to some aspects of online content) but I think it's important and rather liberating. :)
First time viewer and I think this was amazing. I'm so very interested in the historic origins of the art, and also the context in which the cards developed (and were perceived) over time.
I could watch this kind of content all day.
Thank you so much! That's very kind. ^_^
What a great discourse on a complex subject!
Thanks!
I can't wait until you take us through more of this information and the cards! Thank you! It was immensely enlightening.
Thank you. I'll have to keep digging for more resources. ^_^
You don’t sound cranky to me, just passionate. Lots of good points to consider here. Also, your artwork is beautiful and I enjoyed watching you create it 💚
Thank you so much! I'm glad it didn't come off as too grouchy! It can be hard to figure out the difference between passionate and 'too much'. ^_^
Such a good artist you are! What is the gold paint product you used on the drawing? I love it!
Thank you! The pain is called "Inka-Gold" (though you can get it in all types of metallic colours) ..the company looks to be "Viva decor" ... it's described as a fast drying metal gloss paint and you're meant to be able to even brush wood and other surfaces with it.
This critique was incredibly helpful. Thank you for sharing it. 👏🏾
I'm so glad you found it useful ^_^
Oh wow! I can't believe he's so popular after hearing the lack of academic rigor in his work. (From a historic perspective). And I know that not everyone pays attention to sources being cited, but I feel like people who I consider serious and whose opinions I respect, are such fans of Yoav Ben-Dov!
To be fair, the book doesn't claim to be a history book - the majority of it is devoted to his particular method for visually analysing card meanings. It's a cool method too. And unfortunately, a lot of tarot guidebooks and so on don't include citations for their 'history' sections and claim things that are just as strange (to me, anyway). I suppose, in a way, the manner of inquiry/questioning that I show in this video should be applied to any book - especially that lacks citations.
Thank you for this video ❤️ I assume because tarot is a spiritual tool there is some reluctance in the wider tarot community to research the history of the card imagery. Just my personal opinion but sometimes it seems like it’s more important to fit a certain (esoteric, spiritual, philosophical, etc.) narrative than to actually be factual. I personally think that’s a pity because I don’t think knowledge of the historical facts takes away anything from tarot‘s capabilities as a wonderfully working and effective spiritual tool. Sadly I don’t know much about renaissance/ Middle Ages history, art or culture. But I think it would enrich my knowledge of the cards to know about it, so thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us!
You have such a valid point here - and I agree. I actually find it odd to think that exploring historical context would decrease the magic inherent in something... I would think that's *why* it's so potent to begin with!
@@SaoirseGraves ❤️
I have no knowledge of art history so I enjoyed this very much. Thank you. As for Ben-Dov…yikes. I think you showed remarkable restraint.
Thank you. I try 🤣