Indian Navy Chooses Rafale Over F/A-18 Super Hornet
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- Mover and I talk about the ramifications of the Indian Navy going with the French built Rafale.
Every Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between. Send your topic ideas to cwlemoine at cwlemoine.com!
The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.
Kids Coloring and Activity Books!
www.amazon.com...
You found the clip! Great work, Gonky.
Ha ha. Such a troll
#InGonkyWeTrust
That clip was buried in the internet.......
@@themoverandgonkyshowwhat clip?
So true. It broke. Only 35% of the f35 fleet can get in the air
Even as a french, it really saddens me to think that the legendary F/A 18's production line will be closing in the near future, it really is a beautiful and legendary aircraft. A few thoughts tho:
To say that one aircraft is better than another often comes back to the question of the mission that it is given, but I think that in general we can agree, between French and Americans, that in the current standards of commissioning the two jets don't really have any key capabilities that the other doesn't have.
On the other hand, the Rafale is an aircraft that still has a bit of a future (more than the SH imho): while the SH assembly line was already scheduled for closure, those of the Rafale are in the process of being expanded to deliver the many orders received over the last decade. And While the "F4" variant is just entering service a new "F5" upgrade standard is already being studied, with a goal to enter service in the 2030s, one could even realistically imagine an F6 variant for the 40s/50s.
This will certainly not transform the aircraft into a 5th gen, but in my opinion it is reasonable to think that this standard will surpass the F/A 18 SH's planned capabilities for the corresponding timeframe.
While I don't think that was the Indian Navy's deciding factor, (what I have read points rather to the logistical, financial and geopolitical matters as key arguments for the rafale's purchase) that part of the question was certainly considered viewing how much time this took...
I see some of my fellow frenchmen in this comment section forgot to take some medication for their misplaced chauvinism, a little bit embarrassing...
Thank you Sir! One thing is for sure, the perfect jet does not exist, it's all a compromise in design and like you said, whats the mission?
I mean there are some integration with FCAS for the rafaels. I think the rafaels will be able to be integrated with 6th gen capabilities together with the eurofighter. MBDA do a lot of intergrations with our current fighters. Though if we are going fighters on a budget then our swedish gripen fighter is the most economically efficient one. Especially with its software modularity that will make new weapons integration a lot faster and easier.
But I actually think the main reason why india choose the rafael is because of the new weapons that comes with the aircraft since the F-18 does not have the ability to carry the meteor missile. India bought 100 of those missiles.
MBDA is releasing a lot of new missiles that wont be compatible with most american fighter though the brits seems to want to integrate them to the F-35 though I do not know how they are going to do that when they do not have access to the F-35 software. If I understood it correctly only america has access to the F-35 software while the other partners has access to most other parts of the aircraft technology wise.
Good explanations. F18 Hornet was designed for the Navy not the Airforce however it was good enough for many due to its performance. Australia, Canada, Finland, Spain and Switzerland all bought them on its ability. That the legacy Hornet was so good meant it's steroid brother Super Hornet was welcomed by the USN.
Rafale was a blended design from birth with close coupled canards to give excellent low speed handling. The F35 was designed to meet a similar market .
One thing USA lacks which is trust
For example India tried to buy MQ9 drones 😂 but ur congress put ban on the deal it was 4.2 billion $ deal but bcz of some terrorist death in Canada usa stopped the deal 😂 so its not our fault 😂 first fix ur system then talk about sells ! We now going for Israeli drones as always ! Like in past we avoid fa18 !
India likely picked French as US tends to be politically inconsistent. India could be a target of sanctions and be put in a bad spot during a conflict with Pakistan.
As a note.. the Spanish Air Force got the Hornet in the 80s because MD offered an outstanding deal in tech transfer .. the Spanish Hornets are fully maintained by local companies and even the software and avionics were developed further locally to the point that its said that spanish air industries got more from the Hornet deal in research and know how than the jets cost. Back then the contender was the Viper.
Thanks for the comment Sir!
@@themoverandgonkyshow The Australians got a similar deal with the Hornets. The first ones were flown to Australia but most were built in Oz. Thailand selected F-18Deltas but canceled the contract in 1999 so their Deltas went to the USMC.
@@00calvinlee00was the same story with every plane before too. Mirage included.
F-111s were the only ones not built here
Surprenant qu'avec toutes les subventions dont Boeing bénéficie, tout le support de l'intelligence économique et informatique US des pays aient en plus le culot de choisir un meilleur avion ! Ouatezefeuk !
As a french man, I totally disagree with Gonky saying Super Hornet is better but nevermind, I still love you, guys
LOL! As you should Sir! Country pride is an honorable trait! God Bless!
For Indians its good choice, because they want aircraft that can carry their nukes & home built weapons. So France is only country which always go against US laws, because US won't allow that to F-18 in any case until come close to nuke fight. Overall Rafale M is good choice for their home built first aircraft carrier, its come with lots of logistics support & TOT, ofcourse.
The Rafale is definitely a capable jet, good looking too!
Korea almost bought the Hornet(legacy) too. In 1989, ROKAF selected MD's F/A-18C/D as its future combat aircraft. 120 of them was to be procured through direct purchase and license manufacture. However, price started going up to a point that we couldn't afford the needed 120 airframes anymore. We didn't have a choice but to turn to the runner up, GD F-16C/D block 50/52s. With the already in service block 30s, they formed the bulk of the ROKAF's combat assets
I didn't know that, thank you!
The Indian selection of the Rafale is a no brainer for very similar reasons - their Air Force already flies the Rafale
Pragmatically speaking, India and France have had a long history with one another culturally, economically, and militarily. I don’t think that the decision is a knock on the US.
I totally get it, business is business. Just sad the SH line is nearing the end.
@@themoverandgonkyshow usa stopped MQ9 drone deal with India just bcz of some terrorist death in Canada😂 talk about it lol
France don't spy her customers. France share her technologies. French fighters don't have exponential costs. Sorry for god father Corleone, India choose the best plane.
OOOOOKAYYYY....
France is a wh*re who will sell anything to anybody as long as it's in cash. Or, in Israel's case, sell $50 million in jets, not deliver, and keep the money anyway. France makes good airplanes, but in selling them they have no principles but money.
Logistics, ToT and of course, the French being willing to build Rafales that can carry Indian nukes (already have for the Indian Air Force).
Thank you Sir!
@@themoverandgonkyshow Wow, cheers for the reply, Gonky!
Mate, you, Mover and Wombat are utter legends. I learn so much from you all. I have seen the Top Gun reaction videos multiple times also because you and Mover are so entertaining.
Sending my best to you and the family from Oz!
Well, France will NOT sell the capacity of using Indian Nukes on their Rafale.
What can happen though, is that India will adapt several conventionnal weapons with the help of Dassault. Past that point, Indian engineers will be able to adapt their own nukes.
"I think the Super Hornet is better"
On what grounds ?
Swiss competition of Gripen vs Eurofighter vs Rafale, with their Super Hornets as benchmark, with a note of 6.
Air Policing:
Rafale 6,31
Eurofighter 6,20
Gripen 4,91
Defensive counter air
Rafale 7
Eurofighter 6,06
Gripen 4,22
Escort missions
Rafale 7,12
Eurofighter 6,21
Gripen 4,77
Reconnaissance
Rafale 7,57
Eurofighter 5,14
Gripen 5,39
Air to Ground
Rafale 7,21
Eurofighter 5,02
Gripen 5,13
The Rafale showed superior to all those, Super Hornets included.
Even the flight performances seem to slightly favour the slightly more recent Rafale.
Not even talking about the EC suite that shut down a Su30's radar during an egyptian test.
Can the F18 do something comparable ?
I love the F18, i got 3 models of it as a kid, but to say it's superior without providing any element...It just looks like pure bias.
And if so, worthless.
It's always funny to read comments from people who just read articles and post "facts". The Google has made you an expert Sir. All I can tell you is that the Hornet is arguably the greatest light attack carrier strike fighter ever built. It's not perfect but it's good enough.......
@@themoverandgonkyshow The "article" is the Swiss evaluation report. Which isn't absolute, but quite factual elements indeed.
That doesn't make me anything remotely like an expert, but that's still better than an argument from authority without anything behind it.
No presentation of ways in which it's supposed to be better, backed by, precisely, facts.
Which is argumentatively garbage.
So far, you haven't given anything allowing to think that opinion given is not pure bias..
You didn't say you preferred the hornet. You didn't say you'd have loved to see the Hornet chosen and the production kept a few more years.
You said "it is better".
So again, in what ways ?
Backed with what facts, expert ?
@@themoverandgonkyshow hahahah the Hornet is not even in the competiton... The only best jets are the F22 and the Rafale (note: I don't even include the F35 full of issues...)
@@johndoe-cd9vt Having fought the Rafale, you are very wrong Sir.
@@themoverandgonkyshow There are many former pilots on youtube, from the US and also France, none of them praise the F35... US pilots even call it "Fat Amy" for fun.
The only real competitor of the Rafale F4 version is "eventually" the F22, that's it.
It's a big mistake to think the rafale is "just a 4th gen" like the others. It's not for nothing that some years he outsells the F35 and his sale price is higher than a F35.
The SH was a great aircraft back in the day, but here we are in 2023 and Rafale is simply the better fighter Jet India made a good call.
Maybe.....
Without going into specific scenarios, both are capable jets for carrier operations. But the thing is US equipment specially attack equipment just fighter jets comes with alot of terms and conditions. They basically dictate who and where those fighters can be used against. If u're a NATO country its not much of an issue but for anyone outside USA's "inner circle" its a big drawback. We cant rely on stuff that is controlled by a third country. France is more flexible and have good relations with India for a long time. They are more willing to support in hard times.
The YF-17 Cobra was possibily the most beautiful jet ever.
It was good looking!
I agree, it's a real looker.
F-16 was still better a2a but yes the 17 is still about the coolest looking of US jet fighters
Seems like a sensible choice for India.
Yup
As I understand it the French breaking away from the Eurofighter project was mainly because they were the only participant that needed a carrier suitable plane and the French wanted too many modifications in that direction for the other participants.
Germany was for a while interested in buying F18 growlers for electronic warfare and jamming, but something went undesirable on the deal so they choose to develop an Eurofighter variant with that capability, even if apparently buying the F18s would have been cheaper.
As far as I know that wasn't the main reason. The main reason was Snecma could not compete with RR+MTU for the EF engine. The selection of the EJ200 was the red line for France, that's one of their critical industrial competency and therefore can't afford of being left out. To be honest though they really can't compete in that arena, the EJ200 had >9 T/W ratio, the equivalent of a mini F119. The M88 was more to an F404 and wasn't ready, while RR+MTU already had the XG40 prototype up and running.
About the Germany deal, I believe the F-35 purchase kinda partially filled the EW gap, so they have a bit more procurement time gap to prioritize a domestic EA development. Rhino/Growler line being on the edge of shutting down was also a factor.
@@mimimimeow "Officially" the F-35 is only supposed to replace the nuclear deterrence capable Tornado IDS, the Tornado ECR is planned to be replaced by an ECR Version of the EF 2000. Imho the F-35 is just as, or better suited for this role and also a great supplement to Meteor equipped EF 2000. I hope the Luftwaffe is giong to extend the F-35 order to have a good mix of the types in the fleet.
Ironically they ended offering a naval version of the EF wich nobody bought or considered ..as it only existed in a power point
@@kilianortmann9979 Yeah everyone that is familiar with procurements knew that the "nuke obligation" part was overblown to serve as political smokescreen. In reality it will be the Luftwaffe's backbone too. The average German simply can't accept another Lockheed plane and that Airbus really has nothing comparable in store.
@@mimimimeow Ah interesting, I knew that there were behind the scene squabbles, didn't know it was mainly about the engine. And makes me all the more wonder, why in the devleopment of the new 5th Generation fighter Germany again teamed up with France, when France is that disruptive in these projects instead of with the Brits. I would flat out reject working with a partner who insists on an inferior solution that is not in time just so his industry gets a job.
You are pretty much right. I am from India. The selection of Rafale M was mainly based on logistics.
Indian navy really liked the Superhornet, but the issue was that Boeing said they'd move the production line to India only if the order was more than 40/50 jets(not sure of the exact figure), but Indian navy reduced the number to 26 jets, because India wants to spend budget on developing own deck based fighter, since after the Ukraine war India wants as much self dependence as possible. Since China is doing the same at a frightening level.
So long story short... Boeing wanted India to buy more jets to get a production line in India. India thought they can get a production line of Rafale with just 26 jets because IAF uses Rafale already.
So Rafale was chosen.
Hope Boeing get another opportunity to sell the Superhornet. Rooting for it. ❤ From 🇮🇳
yes exactly
Thank you Sir, appreciate the comment!
Nope.
Since Indian carriers don't have catapult, the question of the empty weight become an very important factor here.
And since the Rafale enjoy a clear advantage here, in most circumstance, it has the edge with range/payload/etc
@@j.celgoog3275 the fa 18 has more fuel capacity and has 98kn thrust each for takeoff which is enough compared to 75kn afterburning thrust of m88 although it has 81kn &91kn variants which are possibly used in it but the ge f414 also has 117kn epe variant. We would have brought them if our weapons were integrated in it.
@@noobda4932 More fuel, bigger engines, as I wrote MORE WEIGHT.
Well.. I think they took the right decision after all. since the f/a 18 production line is going to be closed (i don't know how any of this works) they might be struggling with future maintenance and logistics. Since Boeing is now quite busy with the F15 EX and the massive problem with ongoing aging E-3 Sentry, they are also building like 40-50 737 AEW&C. And also other aging active military aircraft. B52, KC-135, the RC-135 Fleet (most of them are broken 2 months and then they fly a sortie). It's a good move but i think the Rafale is a little expensive.
Cristi time will tell, I really don't think India could go wrong with each choice. I do still believe the SH is a better jet.
The Elephant in the Room. India has a carrier with lifts of 10m wide.
Rafale is 10.9m wide its wings don't fold.
Super Hornet is 9.3m wide with wings folded and weapons attached. Only one jet can be struck down to the hanger deck for service or when bad weather appears . In time of war ??
Rafale Marine version's wings do fold and the dimensions are significantly lesser than the super hornet also Charles De Gaulle is one of the smallest aircraft carriers and French Navy have no problem operating 20+ of Rafale-Ms
@@NAYouTuCA The wings of Rafale M do not fold and you can see endless photos of parked Rafales on deck and none have folded wings. It is not a problem as they are not very wide and of course the Charles De Gaulle has lifts wide enough to accommodate that size of aircraft. The lifts on the Vikrant will need to be widened or the wing tips on the jets will have to be removable. Vikrant was built for Mig jets with folding wings.
😮💨 Superhornet production end report nailed the coffin for F 18 which was almost confirmed until that
Its not in the coffin dude, its airframe age is much better than Russian aircrafts.
All good things come to an end....
@@themoverandgonkyshow well but I hope we get the F 35 as rumours suggest as literally am tired of the humpback camel the Rafale is
It's sad seeing the F/A-18 go. It's such a reliable, capable, and versatile fighter with a very good track record.
I think it'll be in use for another 15-20 years, just sticks no more are being built.
@@themoverandgonkyshow does the airframe last that long if they can’t make new ones?
@@jasonsong86 Absolutely, maintenance and spares continues on already built frames when production lines end. Happens to all different types of jets. C-17 has been out of production for a good number of years now, but the Air Force will be flying them for a long time.
Rafale F4 the best fighter in the world , good choice India !
Debatable....
But @francoisheron5203 watched every youtube video on fighterplanes and plays dcs so knows best.
@@themoverandgonkyshow the rafale F4 is a version that can track any 5th gen fighter (with infrared radars and other special tools), that was a mandatory requirement in this version, Dassault explained what had been added in that version...
Also the best missile in the world is the Meteor, a EU missile. The Rafale was already the best agile aircraft, so it's possible that the rafale F4 is currently the best in the world.
@@johndoe-cd9vtyou know 4th gen planes don’t hold a candle to 5th gen… right? we still don’t know what the f35 is capable of, and irst detection puts you well within range of an amraam, and there’s no point in having the longest range missile in the world if you can even use it
@@potatosuc4950 wrong... Rafale is not "a 4th gen aircraft", according to the US classification he is "supposed" to be 4.5 since the beginning...
Make sure you understand.. the "gen classification" has been created by the US... do you really think they would say "our jet is not the best" ?...
Of course, this was wrong because NOBODY knows what the SPECTRA auto defense system is capable of because it's classified... just like what you say about the capability of the F35. But one thing we all know, is that this F35 is FULL of issues, some of them very dangerous and he is also the plane that crashed the most the last 5 years... He is basically his own threat....
So trust me, this crap unfinished jet doesn't stand a chance against a combat proven delta wing like the rafale, specially the F4 version who can track and detect any 5th gen fighters... This is also why the rafale has been able to outsell him many years...
French jets are politically neutral most importantly. no issues with Russian or American emotions if something goes wrong.
Isn't politically neutral and oxymoron?
Realpolitik
France is part of NATO and allied to the US, a few years back two amphibian assault ship all built and ready have not been sold to Russia following Crimea invasion, the Russian sailors were already training on the ship in the west of France at that time
That last comment “she’s a hell of a cook” 😂
The fact that the new fighter is to replace the Mig 29 tells you all you need to know about this situation. I mean, how well did that work out for them.
lol
I think the Mig29 is getting long in the tooth for all operators these days.....
How come 26 rafales replace 45 mig29?. It's more like a supplementary order
Rafales are for the new aircraft carrier IAC 2 INS Vikrant and upcoming IAC 3 INS Vishal
Not a surprise, they already have Rafale’s makes sense. Not to mention Boeing has been on a terrible PR slump after the airline disasters, StarCruiser fails, and just poor performances in general. KC-46 😂. I wouldn’t trust them either
You're not wrong Sir, thanks for the support!
Love to hear two professionals talking about their field. Gonky and Mover are also so relaxed and have good rapport with one another
Larry thank you!
I would guess that the Malaysian requirements called for Fulcrum-equivalent kinematics, endurance for West-East theater transit and limited air-to-surface capability. Only Eurofighter (Tranche 3) and Strike Eagle would've fit all that. Honestly Malaysia would've saved money streamlining the fleet with either of these than trying to make their custom Flankers work.
For a small country the RMAF had too many 4th gen frontline fighters. Mig29, SU30, F18.....it's very expensive.....
@@themoverandgonkyshow many in the service have been arguing since ages Gonky.. the "neutrality mix" costs more for the Malaysian security than to serve it. The FA-50 trainer is the last hope of fixing RMAF.. if leadership doesn't follow up with matching ecosystems like KF21 or Fat Amy, they'd repeat the same mistake again..
Being a Canuck, I would like to hear more of why you guys think the Super Hornet would have been better for Canada over Fat Amy. There are prominent fighter pilots that would disagree. The new format is great! Thanks
The block 3 Super Hornet for Canada IMO is a superior jet. Without going into details some of the highlights are...... Canada buy more for the same price as Fat Amy, the cost savings from already being familiar with the legacy jet is incredibly valuable (training, pilots, maintenance, equipment, etc). Plus Canada patrols some of the most hostile terrain on earth, you NEED 2 engines.
@@themoverandgonkyshow Thanks for the insight Gonky! I guess we made our choice. Hopefully we won't have too much buyer's remorse :)
Isn’t the Rafale M smaller than the Super Hornet. India doesn’t have supercarriers. They have something like the Soviets carriers, right? Or maybe like the old Essex-class size. They can likely fit more Rafale’s on their carriers than big Super Hornets.
The ROCAF(Taiwanese air force) did show interest in buying some super hornet, since the request to buy F-35 got turn back
And ROCAF have quite a large air force with the budget to back, they could buy 100+ aircrafts in one go
But since it is Taiwan, the question of buying new weapons is more about international politics
And Taiwanese AF already operate 4 different fighters and 1 trainer that have fighter capability which is not easy on logistics, if they would to buy F-18, something will probably have to go and it probably will be the Mirage 2000, this will not make the french happy
4 fighters is an expensive operation for a country the size of Taiwan.
@@themoverandgonkyshow yeah for sure, so when Taiwanese government show interest, some experts say that if Taiwan are to buy the hornet,apart from the already retiring F-5, the Mirage 2000 will probably have to retire too, maybe even the F-CK-1 to keep the budget in check. reduce ROCAF's fleet to only F-16 and F-18
Btw fun fact, a few years ago a communication between Taiwanese and US government get declassified and it shows that when Taiwan want to buy F-35, US government offer Taiwan their retiring AV-8 fleet. So there is a timeline somewhere where Taiwan operate even more random stuff. Can't imagine what that will do to the budget
Now, when choosing a fighter there's a ton of considerations to weigh.
I'm sure one the Indian government and defense ministry took really seriously was that choosing the Hornet would increase their dependency on the US.
And as we've seen, for the non-Western part of the world at least, actually moving AWAY from US dependency has become vital to their independence, the events in Ukraine and the relentless pressure from the US towards every country to condemn "Russia's war of aggression" taking it's toll.
Also a big success for France.
They, themselves have chosen to produce almost everything in-house.
Developing this sort of hi-tech technologies comes at great cost and, at this point it becomes cheaper to just buy what you need from the US, or other countries making the specific advanced products you are looking for.
But here comes the good part, once these technologies are developed, you get to sell them as well.
Rafale has suceeded where the Eurofighter has failed.
That's not to say France has not been colonized by the US but they seem like the most likely candidate for regaining their independence at any point in time s*it hits the fan.
Last but not least, after the submarine debacle between the Aussies and France, through clear US intervention, I'm sure the French will get to savor this moment that bit more.
It was really a logistical issue why the Rafale won over the superhornet more than politics and capability.
In this case it's really just commonality with the IAF Rafale, that's the only logical choice. In many cases a lot of those factors are simply not worth it due to lacking political commitments. They can't even commit on further expanding the Tejas, let alone selling licensed Rafales. India and US are in common understanding due to China now so the geopolitical factors aren't really critical here. Remember they are relying on Boeing P-8s for their maritime spectrum. That's still a sensitive leading edge US technology that they got access to.
All valid points, thank you!
I don't get why canada went with the F-35, I mean it is a very good fighter jet and more capable than the super hornet in some aspects, but they are not a large military and their jets are mostly used to defend their airspace, which a stealth fighter is not needed for
Politics.
Likely Canada hasn't forgotten the low blow Boeing did with the Cseries.
Canada was an invested partner in F35 . Rafale can't use the US Nuclear weapons as not compatible. Canada could forward deploy to more bases with F35 knowledge. Possibly the Rafale and Gripen were used as bait to get the best deal on F35 both in purchase price and Canadian jobs. Don't ask a politician to tell the truth anywhere, anytime..
He was very french. I don't understand how we can have that kind of expression who mean nothing?
Let's just say I could tell he wasn't from south Alabama.....
Hello from Canada, I think that Fat amy got a great personality😀😀😀
LOL!
This might be a slightly non technical question, but what does Gonky drink from such a magnificent cup? My feeling is it's a cold drink but I wouldn't rule out something exotic such as green tea.
LOL! Depends on whats on sale at the store!
To our Ready Room hosts, did you ever do an analysis of Rafales and late block F-16s?
No Sir we did not.
@@themoverandgonkyshow would love to hear your thoughts on that one day! definitely appreciate your videos!
Considering the Indian Air Force has the Rafael, it just makes sense to me for the Naval Arms to have the Rafale as well
Well, of course, the Indian Navy chose the Rafale. The Rafale is a lot cheaper to purchase and to operate. Not a surprise.
There's a lot of other factors that go into picking a fighter, but you are correct. Price is important. Thanks David!
Dude, its not cheaper! Its 20% expensive than super hornet. They request integration approval in case of UK halts weapon package(sanctions).
Unit Program Cost to IAF for their Rafales were over $200 million each, with weapons, spares, support equipment, etc.
I've never seen a SH Unit Program Cost get anywhere near that. Unit Flyaway for Rafales are in the $150-$162m range, depending on year.
SH unit flyaway is half that.
@@themoverandgonkyshow so why did India pay $255m per aircraft for the cheaper version F3R as M version in F4 configuration is more expensive. Export price is always different to home purchase. F35 has many partners so discount prices depend on how much you invested or a straight off the shelf purchase from a non partner gives a rough figure of $170m for countries like Finland, Switzerland and Germany but that includes simulators, weapons, engines and training etc. But USAF can buy F35A for about $80m.
The F/A-18 is my favorite American jet for Ukraine. It pairs great with the F-15EX for a high low mix. Ukraine will never be approved for F-35s, and the waitlist for F-16 Block 70 is probably 5 years long.
USN have signed for 20 Super Hornet Block III and at a cost of $55•7m per aircraft. Now I know all the Rafale Fan Club will claim how much better a Rafale is compared to everything else. BUT! How much is a Rafale M ( F4 version ) going to cost the Indian Navy? My money is at least $200 - 270m per unit. The SH actually fits the 10m wide lifts on Indian carrier as it 9.3m wide wings folded while Rafale is 10•9m wide..... oops!
Dying with the "Fat Amy" comments with the F-35A looking the best. 😂 The F-35C looks odd imho because it looks confused - like it didn't know if it wanted to be a delta-winged aircraft or not. F-35B with its cropped canopy look alright. Nothing compares with the F-16 though in terms of looks. Slick looking jet from all aspects. However, it sounds as though in a dogfight, the F-35A wins everytime over the F-16 once it's flight envelope was fully opened and flight control laws matured.
Richard thank you for the support! Remember no jet wins every time, I'm certain that in the F35 vs F16 BFM arena it's almost totally the pilot that determines the outcome.
Rafale makes perfect sense for the Indian Navy, logistically, because the Indian Air Force has ordered the Rafael also. Boeing may have also dodged a bullet, because the Indian government is notoriously difficult to deal with, due to unreasonable contractural stipulations and very long stop/start/stop/start negotiation timelines, only to order and then cancel their contracts, causing the contractor to spend millions with no monetary gain.
She's a hell-of-a-cook!!🤣🤣
LOL!
Taiwan probably would love F18. They still fly F5 and Taiwan’s IDF plane is based on F-5 design like F-18.
Gonky, you look so different now you had new mic and better internet.
Better or worse? LOL!
@@themoverandgonkyshow don't know. Now you impose more your presence on the video and you highlight your accumulated expertise.
the US should tell the Philippines, and Taiwan, if they want US Protection, they should at least by fighter jets, namely the Superhornet, and F-15EX. and some Abrams tanks.
Gonky next convo include the part where US transferred GE 414 engine which the hornet uses to india 80% ToT
If the F-35 is called "Fat Amy" any one know what the inside Air Force term for Boeing's even uglier X-32 was?
You're right that thing was hideous!
Here in Taiwan, people are talking about retiring our 60 Mirage 2000-5 and replacing them with F/A-18 on a one-to-one basis. The public opinion are mostly positive the proposal but the problem is how soon Boeing can deliver the new aircrafts?
I'm not sure how fast Boeing can build jets. You bring up a good point, delivery time can be an important part of the deal.
I wonder if Lockheed ever thinks about doing something with the F-16XL, the "cranked arrow" delta wing variant that was supposed to compete with the Strike Eagle. A lot of the development costs have already been paid, and it could turn out to be more cost effective than the mudhen.
Pete I think that ship has sailed. The USAF now has the F-15EX..... that thing is a BEAST.....
@@themoverandgonkyshow Agreed about the beastliness of the EX, but if India can't afford the Strike Eagles they needed, would Lockheed be able to offer a new F-16XL cheaper and with similar capabilities? I doubt we'll ever know; I just like the XL.
@@crazypetec-130fe7 I don't think it would be that simple with the f16XL. I mean, the last time this project saw any action was mid 80s, which means that still a considerable amount of time and money would have to be pumped into research and development before we would see it ready for the assembly line. The f-15 is practically there ready on the shelf with some sales secured, so costwise the f-16XL probably still wouldn't have an advantage.
Don’t Maylasian hornets have the dark gray that the strike eagle has? Yeh just paint super hornets dark gray, throw a snipper pod under the wing and your gtg!
Just can't hear that the Rafale is a better plane than the F-18?
It's newer, more powerful, more agile, has jamming capabilities the F-18 can only dream of, it's stealthier.
It has a predictive maintenance program that works for it (unlike the F-35 for example).
And unlike the USA, France does not prohibit these customers from using its devices according to American policy.
Not to mention that it is a 25-year partnership between India and France.
Be nice players you have smoked enough countries to buy this flying crap that is the F-35 which has such a high cost and such poor performance that Mr. Joe is to be congratulated for having succeeded in selling it by promising American nuclear protection to the buyers.
Only real interest of the F-35.
Ummm.....oooookay.....
Its not powerfull against F-18 in any sector!. In Which world you are living???
Obviously you never heard of the EA18G
@@danielmeador1991 why you brought Growler???, power output of regular single seat super hornet for electronic warfare is twice than any Rafale. Growler is dedicated platform, so no 4th fighter aircraft can match its EW capability.
@@thetopsecretpentagonsclass6350The Gripen F with AREXIS pods has similar capabilities to Growler. Germany are purchasing Swedish systems for the new Eurofighters to give SEAD capabilities.
Still funny when i see american use "stealth" argument everytime. The F117 was supposed to be stealth but it last 5 minutes in Serbia, the SR71 was supposed to be stealth but it was immediatly detected in URSS.
Je ne sais pas si vous l’avez mentionné mais il semble que le Hornet était trop grand pour les ascenseurs du porte avion ( the rumour is the Hornet seems to be too big for the elevator of Indian carrier.) heureux detail pour l’industrie française. Small is beautiful 😂
Johnny actually the Rafale is too big for the older Indian carrier and will only work on the newest and future boats. That's one of the downsides of the Rafale, it can't fold it's wings. The SH fits old and new Indian boats.
@@themoverandgonkyshowthe wingspan of the rafale is 11 meters (sorry for the metrics I’m French even if my surname is Johnny) and I’m not sure for the sh 14 meters with the wings up? The capacity of charge (bombs) at the take off was a good point for the French plane. « Bref » the twice are great. Thanks for your videos. I’m your best Parisian fan
@@johnny9353The lift is open to the sea so length of the plane is not a problem but the width is ( 10m ) . Rafale is wider ( 10.9m ) than the lift so you either have to widen the lift or come up with a removable wingtip . Hornet can fold it's wings with missiles attached ( 9.32m ) so does fit on the lift and can get struck down to the hanger.
nothing todo with tech sharing, Dassault doesn't share the tech of the rafale, the sharing will be with the submarines.
The F18 is simply not on the same table as the Rafale. The Rafale F4 who has the same kind of features as the F35, except, he is not fat ...
If you are curious you should check what has been added to the Rafale F4, it's a special version able to detect and track any jet with low signature, that mean, any 5th gen fighter, by using different types of radars (infrared etc) and computing the datas to make the pilot's life easier.
Well, that's your opinion....
@@themoverandgonkyshow It's not "my opinion", we the french know what Dassault said about the expectations of India regarding the "make in India" rafale and the answer was no, no rafale made India (at least for now). But they will maybe work on a 5th gen reactor and also 3 submarines.
All these info were confirmed the 14th of jully, during the bastil day in Paris, India was invited, they signed multiple contracts, none of them was about tech sharing with the rafale, Dassault doesn't want to share anything about this jet (or maybe this is the Gov who said no).
Again, you don't have the right infos regarding the F4 version of the rafale, this is not for nothing that Dassault doesn't want to build a full 5th gen fighter (except his NEURON drone who is a 5th gen drone).
They even talk about creating a "super rafale" with 6th gen features, even if there is a full 6th gen fighter project in progress.
@@johndoe-cd9vt I believe he was also speaking to your comments about the F4. Perhaps it as good as the F35 and can detect stealth fighters but at this point it's just speculation.
@@kbm2055 nothing todo with speculation, Dassault engineers themselves explained what had been put in the F4 version and being able to detect 5th gen planes natively was a part of the roadmap for that version
The speculation, is more to make people think a 5th gen aicraft is invisible (while secretly knowing this is false).
@@johndoe-cd9vt If you have a Non Stealth Platform like Rafale etc then hiding it with a spoofing electronic system is an option. However if you have Stealth and you utilise similar spoofing techniques then obviously you are at an advantage. The F35A has other advantages like it's engine has entrained masking on the exhaust, it has a Radar double the size of Rafale and has power for EW attack on other aircraft or missiles. It's not a surprise we are looking at the benefits of time.
1:28 What's that piece of cloth moving in the background?
It's a birthday card tapped to the book shelf.
where do you think the Rafale accels compared to the super hornet and where do you think the super hornet accels compared to the Rafale M?
I would love to see a breakdown of the new viper block 70 vs Israel’s viper that is similar.
Moober?.....
@@themoverandgonkyshow exactly 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
5:20 What was that about US Aid?
Just two over-proud americans talking bs, unable to digest their country’s political unreliability and incompetence. Quite common with American people confusing india with pakistan, one country sending software engineers building America while another taking US aid and sending terrorists. Such stupidity and bias among the American people is what helps their govt fool them so easily
@@vm8136 These people will learn the hard way it seems.
the Rafale beats the F22, I'm not even talking about the F35, the Rafale devours 10 every morning for breakfast! it is the best aircraft ever! it's already a monster and I dare not imagine what it will be with the planned improvements... it will be crazy!
Ummmm.....lay off the coffee Sir.
@@themoverandgonkyshow ....lay off your american propaganda.... Sir.
@@themoverandgonkyshow .....czcams.com/video/KOswfrc7Xtg/video.html&ab_channel=BloodyHawk
Its not best aircraft, its outdated overhyped crap to brainless countries.
Only 10 F22s every morning 🤓 !
You have a really good point ... lol... country buys things that they don't have. I'm sorry America is not selling Rafale. it's a figure of speech.
Gonky, when were on the Stennis? I was a Shooter from 2001-2003...
I just missed ya....2005-2008 CAG-9.
Wait, was thatad with the kids actually something posted by boeing?
We are no longer #1 we are being degraded in the world standings especially if we keep allowing this. We don’t sell the raptors to other countries because its better than Fat Amy and we know we need something more advanced but we need the F22 until then.
Thanks for the comment!
@@themoverandgonkyshow For the record my comments are my views and solely mine and do not represent the views of Gonky and Mover or the DoD… 😂
Boeing has the P8 sub hunter
They do.
I'm not going to shed a tear if Defense contractors lose a few bucks on a deal. The fact that Fat Amy cost taxpayers more than a TRILLION dollars and granted we got an awesome package with cool Helmet system, badass radar, great avionics and data link capabilities, ect. The only thing that sucked was the air frame they built it around which is kind of a big deal. We would have been off stuffing that stuff into our current inventory of aircraft and not bothering with the plane.
Preach it son!
The JSF program has not cost a trillion even for all the taxpayers combined from all partner nations.
Anytime you see someone saying "trillion dollar" and "F-35" in the same sentence, understand that these are projections of total program cost into the 2070s, most of that O&M.
We're not even 1/4 of the way into acquisition in the US, and acquisition is planned for 2470 aircraft. USAF alone is scheduled for 1,763 F-35As.
We're not even close to $100 Billion yet in acquisition.
For those that dont know please tell US me too,,BBR? Enjoyed the talk usually dont care to hear some opinions on this or that ,,,Thise was interesting, To the Pilot much respect from Kentucky
It’s time to retire the Hornet platform. I remember when that plane was very popular and new when I was in high school during the mid 1980’s!!!! Do you want a new pick-up truck, or still driving a 40 year old design?
F18 Super Hornet was first flown in 1995 . We are talking about the latest versions like Rafale F4 and Block III SH. Both have upgrades .
@@NATObait You can only upgrade a jet so much. In the end, it’s still a model year 1995 air frame with new lipstick. Time for new stuff.
@@colt10mmsecurity68 Yes and the last of SH production will be 2025. F35C is the replacement for the USN. Still F18 has been a reliable aircraft and will remain in service for another 20 years and no doubt with a few upgrades along the way.
what everyone wants to hear 04:05. he likes the Super Hornet over the Rafale
War-fighting off a ship - Super Hornet. Looks - That French jet has some nice lines......
Super Hornet Block II & III systems and capabilities are ahead of Rafale F3 and F4. Rafale unit program cost to India for the IAF deal was well over $200m per unit.
This makes me ask, "What advantages for India were so compelling to make them choose a less-capable, far more expensive option?"
I'm not biased to either one, but you also have to consider the fact that bribery closes deals with most of that part of the world, and even in some deals in Europe (Gripen C/D to Hungary and Czechia).
@@LRRPFco52 often its not so much the system itself but the other aspects. Like in Norway, they thought the Korean K2 was as good as the Leopard 2 but cheaper. But went with Leopard 2 for logistical/commonality issues with their neighbors and something related to trade balance with Germany. It seems in the Indian case, Rafale's selection had a lot to do with its lower scale procurement, logistics commonality with the AF, and Boeing's requirements for tech transfers
When countries get into shooting wars, they don't want to hear from their partners and allies who they can and can't fight with this or that weapon. India probably made the right choice. Don't think so, just ask Israel or Ukraine.
dont't misunderstand me, the F-18 SuperHornet is a very good airplane no doubt, I love it (and I'm French) but Rafale is a hell of a fighter jet : small, agile and efficient, might suits better to India's marine and air force, I know there's more than just technical datas going on here, bring on politics, independance, deals around technology transfer...but be shure that Dassault is not ready to give all his knowledge just to sell an airplane...In Europe they are planning on the next gen fighter, everyone is arguiing against everyone on who is gonna get what part...UK is already on it's own, but germany Spain and ? are on the deal with Dassault, and Dassault is ready again to go on alone if they don't agree the final deal (like 30 years ago with the Rafale/Typhoon split) because they know they are the only ones capable of building a jet fighter all alone...In today's world only 3 countries are really able to do so : USA / RUSSIA and France...GO RAFALE !
As a indian i felt sad that usa never allowed us to use our weapons missiles on it we want to be independent of foreign dependance france is ready to integrate our a2a missiles,antiships missiles etc , most important nukes.
No way f18 will have indian.missiles. whats wrong with them what does happen if others missiles are integrated with it. Because this we would never buy American jets. We dont want our sovereignty in the pockets of state department.
France will not sell it's Nuclear weapons and Protocols to anyone including India....Ever.
India will have to botch up it's indigenous Nuclear weapons if it wants to fly and integrate them onto a Rafale. Sorry but this is France maintaining it's Secrets nothing personal.
@@NATObaitlol dude he said indian.nukes on rafale india already has nukes we made in 70s and tested again in 1998😂
@@Shashank-g6i Yes I am aware India is nuclear capable, my point is France might happily sell Rafale but it won't sell it's version and protocol to anyone so integration of an Indian system is the only possibility.
"No. It broke."
Knowing Canada's procurement luck, this will be more true to life than scripted.
However, Canada was 10 years too late to the SH party anyway. Would not make sense in 2020 to be buying a legacy platform. Should've joined Australia in 2007 if they wanted to go down that route.
But either way, Canada was going to try to cheapskate it - only "E" models and no Growler. Not a serious move in the 2020 period onward.
The real reason for the "Interim" SH selection was because a certain Prime Minister said he'd never buy the F-35, until he did. But that's a whole other conversation for spicier channels than this one. Certain names need to be called that are not family friendly.
100% However the latest SH is a serious player today, combine that with the Growler and you have a serious force. The shear area the Canadian Air Force has to patrol and the hostility of that area make the SH the obvious choice. Once again politics getting in the way of the actual mission.....
@@themoverandgonkyshow Man, Gonky, you're an early riser. Impressive.
Agree that upgraded SHs are serious contributors to the joint / coalition force. Australia's planned upgrade to Block III shows the flexibility of the platform, particularly with a loyal wingman going forward, their Growler integration and long range stand off weapons buy.
Sadly, Canada is not willing to do any of that.
The problem with Canada, and it is but one of many, is its geography. It is both blessed and cursed being America's hat. It can get away with not being serious about defence because the US will always be there to defend the space. So budgets are always bare bones and priorities unfocused. Up until recently, Canada has never had to seriously consider defending its own territory. So it in many ways still acts like it is in Germany on the NATO front. Max flex and short legs work well there.
But what Canada really needs is a long range interceptor and interdiction strike platform. The F-15E(X) seems ideal, but again not now with only 10 to 15 years of relevant airframe hours left for BILLIONS of expense and no "Growler" option without the expense of a mixed fleet.
Canada simply held on to its used car (CF-18) too long and got squeezed in the capability gap. Fat Amy is not really well suited to defending Canada's North and not living up to plans - Block 4 likely delayed beyond 2026 and upgraded engine in doubt. And yet 6th Gen is too far away to stretch the legacy Hornet out that far.
So what does Canada do? Buys used Australian legacy Hornets. Ha!! You can't make this up. But seriously, doing a USMC-like extension of the Hornet was the smartest choice available.
The next smartest might have been a small order (36 to 48) of F-35Bs for distributed forward operating across Canada's arctic, but that would involve strategic thinking. Instead, politics dictates the path of least resistance, so we'll take whatever everyone else is having. Thank you very much!
Anyway, it's a fascinating topic that will never be optimally solved. But that's why we have cool podcasts like yours and Mover's.
Greatly appreciate your insights and experience and always look forward to the lagging Internet - ha! Now go get some coffee.
Cheers!
@@themoverandgonkyshow I feel that Boeing shouldn't have done what they did regarding Bombardier's C series. Had they not, Canada would have been more open to the Super Hornet.
@@nimaiiikun Definitely. But you don't shit on a country's aviation industry and then expect them to buy your planes. So I disagree that this was "politics". It was shitty business practice by Boeing that cost them the contract. Otherwise the F-15E or -18E would have been ideal for the job but Boeing f***ed themselves out of the contract.
@@themoverandgonkyshowSH was never a contender really for RCAF and they planned for JSF dating way back. SH doesn't have anywhere near the combat radius or persistence of F-35A, nor does it fill in the gap for the NORAD AK-RCAF-ANG MI-VT ANG MADL coverage like JSF. SH would have been a handicapped link in the NORAD chain, with less availability due to its required MMHPFH as well.
Don't get me wrong, since APG-79(V)4 is an exceptionally-capable AESA, and they shoehorned-in some nice features with Block 3, but JSF excels at everything RCAF was looking for to meet future requirements and interoperability with USAF Alaska, Great Lakes, and New England F-35A units to form the new NORAD MADL/net-centric coverage.
Traditional interceptor metrics are better in F-35A as well looking at QRA, start-up, climb rate, and transonic-supersonic region.
Additionally, Canada has a huge list of manufacturers in the JSF enterprise that most are totally unaware of.
They have a Navy?! Can they even swim?? 😆😆
the problem with the hornet is this
its G limit is too low its adversaries have 9 G G limit vs 7.5 (for an absolute clean config) the minute a missile is on it its 5.5G. the F-18 is destined for the scrap heap. the F-16 and F15 are much better options.
I mean the F14 was still beating it. That should tell you everything
You are 100% wrong Sir.
You are so wrong it’s sad
Us aid? Really? U think thats what funds indian defence? Lol.
Typical Yankees 😂😂
I would have got the grippen if I was going to waste money on some eurotrash fighter
I hate the super hornet, looks like a shark’s, uh junk. However Id take the super hornet over the rafale! When can we get navalised typhoon or gripen, f the rafale!
Boeing being greedy cost them a contract.
Having worked for Boeing I'd have to disagree.
Anyone remember France withholding jets and parts from Israel during an Arab Israeli war?
Lebanon is a former french colony...
Remember France militarily supporting Israel until said Israel attacked its neighbours, terrorist raid included ?
No french pepole here?
there are many, but they have good English skills so you can't spot them... LOL
@@johndoe-cd9vt so if you meet one of thore fri'chips tell him get out of it, you po' asshole
Looks matter 😂
No kidding! Ain’t a single good looking Indian I’ve met in real life!
@@khaldrago911 Chill dummy, I meant looks of aircrafts not people and schedule an eye check up this week or maybe some psyche stuff
Yep! LOL!
@@Anuj-2 lol! Your English is funny - you write like them gas station workers speak!
@@khaldrago911 Sk a dic
It's not terrible, but the reverse gear is a worry
F 18 is a super fighter
Indian defence acquisition commitee made a huge mistake due to their lack of knowledge
No not really a mistake.
They chose according to their needs Americans in early 2000s Or late 90s idk sold hornets to aussies and the aussies complained about various jamming problems as full control was not granted to the aussies. Also indian air force also operates rafale it saves maintenance
The block 3 Super Hornet is pretty insane, but I'm biased!
Not true Sir, the Aussie Hornets are fully capable as delivered to the RAAF.
@@themoverandgonkyshow not currently sir I'm talking about earlier