How to Write for Orchestra | Q&A
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- čas přidán 5. 08. 2024
- In this video I answer viewers questions all about orchestration and the issues surrounding writing for orchestra. Enjoy!
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Research:
www.rodoni.ch/busoni/tecadiar...
Pierre Boulez: Reflections on Symphony Orchestra Organizations by Paul R. Judy
Recordings:
David Bruce: Prince Zal & The Simorgh
• Prince Zal & the Simor...
NORMAN "Play" - Detroit Symphony Orchestra, Cristian Măcelaru
• NORMAN "Play" - Detroi...
Ravel: Daphnis et Chloé - 2. Suite ∙ hr-Sinfonieorchester ∙ Daniel Smith
• Ravel: Daphnis et Chlo...
Schubert - Symphony No 9 in C major, D 944 - Muti
• Schubert - Symphony No...
Iannis Xenakis - Ata (w/ score) (for orchestra) (1987)
• Iannis Xenakis - Ata (...
Janácek: Nursery Rhymes (Rikadla)
• Janáček: Nursery Rhyme...
Mahler - Symphony No 4 - Abbado
• Mahler - Symphony No 4...
Shostakovich String Quartet 8 (Heavy Metal Version)
• Shostakovich String Qu...
Shostakovich Quartet No. 8 - Jansen, McElravy, Rachlin, Maisky Julian Rachlin
• Schostakovich Quartet ...
Ensemble ACJW Performs David Bruce's "Gumboots"
• Ensemble Connect Perfo...
George Benjamin: Sudden Time
• Sudden Time
The San Francisco Symphony and Mason Bates perform Bates's Auditorium
• The San Francisco Symp...
Andrew Norman's Sustain
• Norman: Sustain
Apocalyptica - 'Nothing Else Matters' (Official Video)
• Apocalyptica - 'Nothin... - Hudba
So incredibly excited for the next 5 composers 1 theme video! Keep up the amazing content!
Super interesting exposition. You seem to have a lot of instruments. Any chance of a tour of your instrument collections - perhaps with played examples?
😻
>talking about getting scores on the internet
>not mentioning imslp
oof mate
i love adam neely's explanation of transposing instruments:
"it's the capo for instruments, but the capo is a whole other instrument"
I'm so excited for the 5 composers proyect!
*project
Concerning writing for low brass, it's always a good idea to check out composers who have experience playing some instrument writing for that instrument. In classical music, low brass composers aren't common compared to pianists or string players, but they do exist - Gustav Holst and John Williams being a couple of well-known ones. There are a lot more great low-brass playing composers/arrangers in jazz orchestra and brass band styles.
Andrew Meronek yoooo my boi Gustav Holst
David Bruce,Adam Neely,Nahre Sol and Rick Beato, Tantracul and Ben Levin
The 6 great musical experts and professional artists of CZcams!
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Les quatre!
The 4 Horsemen of Musical Education
There are many more! How could you forget 12tone?
I’d switch tantacruul for sol.
And Aimee Nolte - 5.
Re Gumboots, arrangements are fine as long as they are 'by your leave'. Here's a famous example: "Paying tribute after Cocker's death yesterday, McCartney looked back fondly on that cover, which Cocker further made his own during his appearance at Woodstock in 1969. "Joe was a lovely northern lad who I loved a lot, and like many people, I loved his singing," he recalled. "I was especially pleased when he decided to cover 'With a Little Help From My Friends.' I remember him and [producer] Denny Cordell coming round to the studio and Saville Row and playing me what they recorded. It was just mind-blowing. He totally turned the song into a soul anthem, and I was forever grateful to him for doing that."
And of course Lennon & McCartney received royalties for it, too.
Brilliant video and great to hear that you're extending the 5 composers idea: it was fascinating and inspiring. Many thanks and keep up the great work!
The dutch rendering of Gumboots was done by a band named "Fuse." They play in the weekly classical musical program, on public television. I feel everything they play is an arrangement. So an informed follower of the show will probably know it is not original. David, the way you speak about it, they havent asked you if it is ok. How does this work? don't you feel you should have been asked?
I think parody laws would apply, but EU is weird...
If EU is weird (and I agree) then the U.S. is crazy.
I speak generally of course in both instances. No individual is responsible for others, and certainly not for a certain portion of society in general.
I remember as a kid in the U.S. that there was something like a statute of limitations that allowed us to cover any piece 10 years after it was first published. I've tried searching a couple of times for this law, but haven't found it yet, most likely because I have no idea what it was called (and I get distracted by all the great music I keep finding.
@@elcucumber2847 The Dutch performance doesn't seem like a parody to me.
This is amazing and exactly what I’ve wanted for sooo long. Thank you sooo much!!
really interesting as usual, look forward to the next one
Great video again David! Thank you so much. 😁
It’s interesting your reaction to someone else reinterpreting one of your compositions. I come from the old rave scene with a DJ & producer background. It’s part of the culture to take someones track and remix it or sample it into something else. Many years ago I remember hearing a track sampling one of my tunes. I was chuffed to bits that someone liked my track so much, it’d inspire them to take it on and make it into something new! None of us were making money out of the recordings just DJing them out in clubs! Looking around and knowing that everyone there is having a good time and they’re dancing to your music! It’s the best buzz ever! I totally respect your view David. Your channel is great, i love the experiments you do swapping with electronic artists. It’s in my bucket list to one day conduct an orchestra. Your videos gain me a much deeper understanding of orchestral music. Thanks for that. Peace brother ✌🏽😎
The 5 composers 1 theme project will be amazing and will be extra special because of the Orchestra. I am looking forward to the video. David Bruce's channel deserves 1M subscribers because of his detailed information and demonstration. Keep it up!👏👏👏👌👌👌
Regards from India 🇮🇳
Nice VoD, keep up the good work!
As always a cool learning experience watching/hearing your videos.
I'd like to see more of this sort of advisory videos. Great responses
Great video!
Can't wait for the 1 theme video 🥳
I want to make a game and to create my own music. Even though I am not writting for orchestra, I believe this is going to be very helpful.
Thanks Bruce! Nice video
Could always look up Nobuo Uematsu, Yoko Shimomura and Joe Hisaishi if you havn't already. Game music is a very different beast but their approach could be of use to you :)
That’s also why I’m here
That’s really cool! If you’re looking for any tips, the channel 8bitmusictheory has some videos about video game music.
@@xenontesla122 Seconding this, probably the best channel for videogame-specific music theory and one of the best for theory in general.
Good luck. As someone who has done game soundtracks, but also moonlighted in areas (like programming) where I am utterly unqualified just to get the damn thing out the door, the music will be the easy part.
Most of what I write is not orchestral, but even when I compose for orchestra, I tend to keep things very small and only add in exactly what I need. I start with a 4-part (or even 4-piece) string section (as opposed to the usual 5, splitting the violins is optional in my book), a four-piece brass section (two trumpets, two horns), a woodwind quartet, and percussion. Then I add more instruments if and when I think they are worth bringing in (but remember -- strings can do a lot! Particularly, don't be afraid to use pizzicato and tremolo).
mal-2.bandcamp.com/track/ski-lift
Still, the most important point here is... don't be anxious about the music. You'll have plenty of time to figure out the music, as the rest of the game will take much, much longer (orders of magnitude). Usually I'll write roughly half the music I expect to need for a project, and then supply the rest to match things that are being written on other fronts. Then again I know that if I really need a song and already have an idea what it's supposed to represent, I can have that done (written, performed, engineered) in one very long day. If I'm partially or wholly responsible for writing the script, it is not at all unusual for the music to drive the script, or the script to drive the music.
this is gonna be incredibly helpful
It must be otherworldly touching to hear your own music played live by an orchestra!
How exciting to discover that Janacek's Rikadla is one of your favorites! It's such a fun, energetic and clever set of pieces, I love it. And it's outrageously underrated. Rikadla Nation, arise!
I brought up Mahler's 4th Symphony on another of your Videos (about Endings), and here, you play excerpts from it. Awesome!
I had to replay the section at 6:16 several times to hear the words, because I was so distracted by the instruments. This is not a complaint. I love how you bring in examples all the way through. That is part of what makes your videos so interesting while being educational. Thanks for great content! This video is fantastic!
I, for one, wish to complain about that very problem.
I got stupidly excited when you opened with a question from Andri from Pagefire. I've been following the guys of Pagefire for quite some time and I love their stuff.
as always....GREAT VID MAESTRO!
One composer whose orchestration I believe to be underrated, is Dvorak. While it’s not super-innovative, his choices of instrument timbres are extremely appropriate.
I'm just a small Time producer from a small village in the south east hip hop is my favourite genre and your videos have helped me so much David thank you 😊 promise when I get a bit if spare dosh will be supporting your patreon for sure but for now my gratitude will have to do ❤
love your channel!!!
Great vid. Thanks.
Great video, David! There's so much to know about instruments, and i've always enjoyed your humility and skill in learning orchestral instruments to guide composers. I'm a full-time university brass teacher and i'd like to add some supplemental thoughts on brass writing: 1) all trumpeters in the US begin on Bb instruments in wind bands, but playing non-transposing instruments usually begins as soon as the really serious ones audition for youth orchestras or the honor orchestras in each state. 2) Euphonium is one of my concentrations, and I would ask composers that are not contractually obliged to write for a Yorkshire-style brass band to write for it in C bass clef. 3) Tuba is my primary instrument, and the composers I recommend musicians study for effective tuba orchestration are Richard Wagner in Siegfried, Gustav Mahler in his Symphony #6, Sergei Prokofiev in his Symphony #5, and Gustav Holst in the Planets Suite. Keep up the good work!
I find the best answer to the transposition problem is "yes". As an orchestrator, assume the minimum necessary to achieve your desires. If you don't know whether they want a C bass clef or B♭ treble clef part, give them both. There is nobody in a better position to provide accurate transpositions than you, or someone working under your direction. The same goes for the score.
i am a young composer and this video is very helpfull! thank you
i´m yr fucking fan, man! not only for how u develop the topic, also the kindness to share yr knowledge! thanks!
In line with the talk about the brass family, I've got a minor correction regarding the trombone/euphonium... when they play from a score in Bass clef, they're not at transposing instrument, so the note's in the music are "true pitch" so to speak... But when they play from a score in Treble clef, they are transposing! Of reasons unknown to me, but probably for sake of ease, in regards to them normally only playing from treble clef music in Brass and Wind Bands!
The explanation I recall from my band director in high school was that the euphonium was often doubled or covered by trumpet players on some pieces, the clef and transposition was so they could play either instrument without relearning fingerings.
British brass band music is entirely in transposing treble clef (even the tubas, but excluding the bass trombone) because traditionally it allowed the coal miners to cover any part that was missing with the same fingerings. Modern day treble clef euphonium parts in wind band pieces are for converted trumpet players in school bands.
Excellent, thank you.
This one was fascinating for me.
In regards to doctor spitvalve's question about using low brass more effectively and slightly related to the comment by Josh Forletta here, I highly recommend checking out The Banner Saga soundtrack by Austin Wintory. There are a few soloists but the core of the instrumentation is made up by wind intstruments. I've been heavily inspired by it myself and it has changed my writing for any wind instruments radically. I'm now more excited about what I'll do with the winds than anything else! Austin was himself inspired by another composer's symphony using a large amount of brass surrounding the audience. I can't remember the name of the composer now but I'll look it up!
PS: David, I've been watching your videos for a long time but I never really comment. Your content is awesome and has been soucre for inspiration multiple times. I love your energy and calmness, too! Keep it up!
Beautiful!
Txs for another great vlog! A very important aspect of learning to write for an orchestra is to hear live performances of orchestral music. My skills as a composer is mainly due to the fact that I did vist live performances of orchestral conserts in the hometown (Trondheim) were I grew up. Today, when everything is streamed an online, many younger conposera actually do not have any live Music experiences on how an orchestra sound, or worse, they use the midi-file from the notation program as a reference, wich is both completely wrong AND a big loss. Nothing can beat a live/acoustic performance of music...it actually has so many levels...althoug it can be reduced by acoustic issues du to the performing venue. And, needless to say, as a composer you should learn to play one or more instruments yourself.
In a television documentary years ago, pianist Arthur Rubenstein said he once asked Ravel how he become such a great orchestrator. He said Ravel said it came from study of Saint-Saëns' G minor piano concerto -- "the orchestration in that piece is fantastic!"
David, have you heard Uli Roth's version of _The Four Seasons?_ It's a pretty astounding accomplishment for an electric guitarist. Not that others cannot play those pieces, but no one comes anywhere near as close to emulating a violin on the guitar.
Saxophone for orchestra, especially soprano sax
It's the most underutilized intstrument IMO
True
The tuba also plays with the same fingering as a Bb Trumpet but is made in C, so a Bb on a tuba is the same as a C in the Bb Trumpet in terms of fingering.
What a video!
thank you very much learned a lot
15:39 - Regarding electronic instruments in an orchestral setting, three thoughts come to mind:
* This is more common in film scores than in so-called Classical Music, so there may be some ideas there.
* I’m inclined to take clues from writing for orchestral piano: How to move one of the most iconic solo instruments - the piano - into an orchestra. Part of the problem there is to think of it as “just another instrumental timbre” and blend it into those texture.
* You might be wise to do a “gentle introduction gambit,” gradually adding more electronicisims (if that’s a word) to the composition over time.
May I share some of my experience:
1. If you ever do orchestration for a heavy metal band, don't go with the classical orchestral setup (14-12-10-8-6). They need bass and therefor lots of double basses in the strings. Reduce violins and violas, if necessary, but at least double the double bass section, especially, when the band intends to perform live (when recording, they can record the bass section twice and mix them). (Also, check if oboe and bassoons really fit or are required for special themes, because as "regular" orchestra color they actually do not go well with heavy metal.)
2. Sevsay's orchestration book provides something that no other book does, and that is lots of "particelli" (don't know if that is a real word in English: it is a score consisting of various staves that sketch out the anatomy of an orchestral work, but is not yet orchestrated). Some of them are from famous pieces like "Pictures of an exhibition". If you are honest to yourself and try to orchestrate one such particell of a piece you know, but never had a look at the original score, and then compare your output with the original one - that is really very educational and has a strong learning effect. Check it out! (Sevsay used it as his way of teaching orchestration in Vienna and Miami, actually still is, even though he is retired now...)
I would love to see a video on the theremin in an orchestral context. I think that, of all the lesser used instruments, theremin probably has the greatest potential of them all -- and not merely for 'special effects'.
For anyone who is confused about this, I recommend looking into Grégoire Blanc. His performance of Vocalise practically demands we see more of the instrument in a classical context, and the rest of what he and other renowned thereminists do is immaculate as well.
Thanks you for your reassuring me.. what I do.. by just doing it ..
As someone who has played both bassoon and saxophone. Eb instruments are actually the easiest to transpose, as you just have to flatten the key signature three times and read the part as if it were in bass clef. The only complication is that certain accidental are no longer accurate, but you can rationalize this as if it were relative to the key (just like how b natural is the sharp fourth of F major even though the note name is not sharp.) From there, it just becomes octave transposition (e.g. Alto sax is bass clef 8va.) This trick can also be used to relate tenor clef to Bb instruments. I'm sure you were probably aware of this, just a little surprised you didn't mention it. This means that the key of an instrument can actually be a useful tool for uncovering an instrument's true range. For example, the bass saxophone would be written in 8vb tenor clef if it were in concert pitch, showing that it actually fills a contra-tenor or great bass role, putting it in a very under-explored register in terms of ensemble playing.
I play Bari sax in marching band, and I have to transpose tuba parts using this same method. Very easy once you get used to it.
Marvelous thank you!.... although I think this deserves a follow up.
Very interesting and educational..
I'd like to see a video about the nuts and bolts of how to promote oneself, get commissions, performances, etc. I've studied composition for years, gotten degrees, been to master classes with John Corigliagno, Lukas Foss, and others of that ilk, and not once did any of them talk about things like: how do you get published? At what point do you get an agent? How do you PICK a publisher and/or agent or manager? Should you write for specific ensembles then shop pieces around, try to get specific ensembles to play your stuff... if you should start by finding ensembles who have very little lit to play (like a weird group with an unusual instrumentation like bassoon, ukulele and trombone) and get "in" with them and write for them, then: How do you find them? How do you get their attention? How do you get them to want you to write for them? How do you parlay that into writing for other groups? Should you hire people to play your stuff or just keep pounding at doors until you luck out?
I mean, I look at guys like you and see you wrote for BBC Proms. OK, I really do wish you sincere congrats and all that, but I mean, I highly doubt you just walked out of your college dorm room one day and the Emperor of the BBC Proms (or whoever decides such things) happened to see you waiting all doe-eyed to drink from the water fountain and he or she called out to you: "You there! I like the cut of your jib. How'd you like to..." etc.
I'm sure you worked very very hard, wrote a lot of stuff, tried a lot of things, and jumped through dozens, if not hundreds of hoops, and made may mistakes before you ended up where you are today. I would love to hear you walk through kind of how you did that, and some ideas for others as to how we might navigate those waters and deal with some of those practical business questions that almost no professional composer ever addresses in public.
I know you've touched on some of these issues in other videos, and I've certainly not watched all of your videos, but unless there's a long video where you cover all of those things in great detail, I'd really like to see one where you cover all of those things, maybe tell the story of your own experience from the perspective of how it might help other composers.
when you play C major scale on C clarinet it sounds the same, but they wanted to expand the range of the instrument, they had to make it longer, so when you click the note C it sounded Bb! now when you play the C major scale you hear Bb scale instead.
that's why composers transpose a step higher so the performer sound in the exact desired pitch.
yes! I knew it!! I have been collecting scores since I was 14! I desperately wanted to be Beethoven. Eventually realized he already existed. I just have to be Tyler. Which is great. hope you are well, stay healthy
Your thoughts about mixing electronics and orchestra made me think of Be, an album by the swedish prog metal band Pain of Salvation. Opposed to the usual metal with orchestral arrengments, the whole album is created with the idea of all the instruments (band and the nine from the orchestra) being core. I think it is an amazing album on many different levels and I'm curious what is your opinion on its orchestration, if you have any.
In the orchestration class, we went to a symphonic orchestra rehearsal and Ravel's and Debussy's stuff was 👌🏻
12:00 that bug on the left is bugging me xD
Thanks for another informative vlog. Trombones in brass bands play treble clef in Bflat. I think this is so the players don't have to learn bass clef. As the tubas read in treble clef Eflat an Bflat. Unlike in wind band and orchestra where they read bass clef in C.
That thumbnail is gold
Trombones (or earlier, sackbuts) were used to double vocal lines in church choirs before they became part of the orchestra, so they were reading vocal parts written at concert pitch.
I was surprised you did not mention Walter Piston's orchestration textbook. I find it invaluable.
Really looking forward to Pagefire's How to Syphonic Metal
Clarinets exist in both Bb and A (most commonly) so we can play pieces in sharp keys more easily- if we played everything on a Bb clarinet then keys like A major (B major in Bb transposition- 5 sharps 😬) would require fingering mostly based on keys instead of the tone holes (which are easier to get a good sound out of).
As far as a more flexible orchestra goes, I'm enamored of the idea of having the option to have each kind of wind instrument present in a full choir. Eb clarinet/Bb clarinet/basset horn/bass clarinet/contra-alto clarinet/contrabass clarinet perhaps, or contrabass tuba/bass tuba/euphonium/[alto tuba representative of your choice]/flugelhorn.
Live processing is a nice alternative if you don't want to simply integrate purely synthesized sound into an otherwise acoustical ensemble. I've had some success in composing for live processed chorus that manages to both keep the sensibilities of choral composing while also being able to move beyond the already broad range of capabilities of the human voice. Granulation processes alone, like a granulation crescendo over a largely homorhythmic, chorale-like texture, can result in a gorgeous and expansive sound if the digital instrument is carefully built and the performers are sufficiently skilled.
Given that we now can put on our laptop more than what could have ever hoped to fit inside of a studio even 20 years ago, there's certainly no harm in exploring the possibilities of growing traditional ensembles to include electronic elements, be they synthesized, sampled, or live-processed.
If a musical work is covered by copyright, you must get the permission of the copyright owner if you want to make an arrangement of it. The copyright owner will then own the rights to the arrangement (known in the law as a "derivative product".)
Looking forward to the five for five video.
I've long been intrigued by the instrumentation used by film composers in the 60s, Barry, Morricone, Williams, Schifrin, Mancini, Bernstein, etc. when they would latch onto new things like Moogs, less known instruments like Cimbaloms, resurgent classics like Harpsichord, etc.
As a bass trombone player myself, I tend to focus first on the lower instruments as a bass for the music, bot literally and figuratively. For me that determines the harmonies and textures of the piece, the emotional feel of it; all melodies and accompaniments in the higher pitched instruments follow from that.
Maybe an interesting take on your point: as a composer or arranger, I feel like I'm just one part in the group the musicians that all contribute to a performance. I don't think any musician should take my compositions as gospel, more like a serving suggestion that, with their virtuosity, helps to produce a musical performance. If they have better, or simply different, ideas on instrumentation, tempi, expression, etcetera I'd be happy for their ideas. Just like any conductor and the performing musicians will have their own view on a particular piece, leading to a different rendition every single time. So if that means adding a funky percussion part, I'd be very excited for the fresh take on the piece. But perhaps this stems from the fact that besides being a classical trombonist, I also play a lot of jazz and salsa, in which creativity of each contributor plays a very crucial role.
Anyway, excellent video once again, thanks David! Very interesting discussion on several of the questions, and I'm very much looking forward to the upcoming 'five composers one theme' orchestral edition!
8:27 (ish) "With French Horn, it's the one below" true, UNLESS you're talking about certain scores, where if they (the French Horns) switch to bass clef, they sound a FOURTH ABOVE. Although I understand that practice is usually no longer followed today, if you read certain scores, esp. from the 1800's, you will find you have to switch when they switch clefs.
I haven't studied any of those scores in a long time, but if memory serves it's often fairly obvious when they follow that practice, as the range will change suddenly. i.e. they're playing a scale or something, switch clef and suddenly they're down a ninth from where they were before.
Trombones don't transpose (outside of British brass bands, for different reasons) because they were chromatic from the very beginning. Nowadays you could very easily do away with transposing in trumpet and horn parts (and some composers, especially film composers, do exactly that) since the instruments are chromatic, but it survives because it's been that way for so long. Besides, at least American trumpet players seem to just play everything on their C trumpet regardless of what instrument the part was written for...
In regards to more flexible instrumentation in the orchestra, I went to a great program by the ACO a few years ago where they had the Tawadros Brothers playing Vivaldi's Four Seasons. I'm not usually into what Tognetti does with the ACO as it's often a bit of a wank, but this was awesome. Joseph plays Oud and James is a frame drum percussionist. Not sure if it was recorded, but it was magic!!
There's so many great textures available, why limit it to the romantic orchestra?
Not just new instruments either, I adore the sound of the Viola Da Gamba, especially in an ensemble. Works beautifully for new music.
When David Bruce basically disses the euphonium, but you play euphonium, and can read both clefs. The reason for both clefs is that trumpets and trombones can play euphonium without having to learn a new clef or new notes/positions.
Another very interesting and informative video, David. I don't usually comment because I so rarely disagree with you but I do here. Someone asked a question about 'flashy' orchestration and pointed to Ravel and you rightly said that flashy didn't necessarily mean most apt or appropriate to convey intended meaning. But in your rundown of great orchestrators, you mention Brahms but not Tchaikovsky. Really? In Rimsky's book, he cites so many examples from Tchaik's music but very few from his own. Tchaikovsky is never flashy (we're not counting 1812 here!) but always poignant and apt to convey the highest of emotions. Just a thought from me. I love your videos and, as a composer myself, it's like having my own personal seminar. Thank you so much and take good care.
Thanks, oh I wasn't giving those three as examples of great orchestrators, I was trying to say that they are composers who clearly manage to use their orchestration skills to get the point across and create a great piece of music, despite people sometimes referring to them as 'poor orchestrators'. I completely agree that Tchaikovsky is an amazing orchestrator, and composer!
@@DBruce You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. I'm just preparing to write a book about Tchaikovsky so my antennae are really high at the moment!
There is a great channel called Orchestration Online. He does excellent analyses and even challenges for viewers.
Hi David, I sent you an email not too long ago asking whether you knew of any scores that use analogue synthesizers? It's a subject I'm writing my dissertation on. I've only seen a couple so far and Adam Neely was kind enough to provide me with his Exigence piece (not strictly analogue but still interesting nonetheless). I'm quite interested as to how these could be blended with an orchestra, and how one would go about notating filter sweeps, changing oscillators, applying LFO's etc. It seems an area in which the physicality of a performance can still remain while adding additional timbres to an orchestra; Will Gregory's Ensemble is the closest I have seen so far and cleverly (at least I thought) uses volume pedals to be able to change the dynamics of the synthesizers.
In response to the question at 15:40 about integrating electronic instruments into the orchestra, I'd say that progress in that regard are being made far more quickly in the world of film scoring (and associated genres like TV music, video game music and whatever the heck you want to call artists like Two Steps From Hell - trailer music, production music, "epic" music, whatever). Hans Zimmer seems to get the lion's share of credit for advancing that front, and there's some merit to the praise (though others did it before him, and personally I find others have also done it better than him), but these days it's rare to find a major film composer who hasn't used electronics extensively at some point in their career - even John Williams has done it (check out "Dennis Steals the Embryo" from Jurassic Park or "Setting the Trap" from Home Alone). Of course, it's a lot easier to produce hybrid music like that when you're only worried about the recording rather than a live performance.
nice! a response---include broadcast music as venue (radio, television, cable, streaming video aka YT---especially as most music not heard live but rather recorded or streamed---cheers
The Dutch performance is completely an arrangement and they would need an agreement with you and your publisher to create this new version. The attribution should be you as composer and the ensemble or individual as the arranger. They would need a arranging contract as well as a mechanical license since it was televised. As someone that manages composer, I hope you were properly compensated, and not just paid by "exposure", our favorite form of payment.
David, your videos rock. Got a question for us amatuer, self taught composers: currently writing a symphonic poem Robin Crusoe. Should I write for a large ensemble or would you reccomend a string quartet. Leaning more toward the string quartet with the idea that it sounds like a piece for full orchestra. Is it easier to get a quartet published and performed. Any advice you have is most welcome. Keep up the good work.
Yay
Ohhh my god i didn't know you wrote a piece for the Shahnameh... just wow...
Regarding transposing instruments, a score in actual pitch with oodles of ledger lines, or changing clefs all the time, is arguably harder to read than a score in different keys!
Always great vids, thanks David! Something that really fascinates me is how you get from writing a piece to getting it performed. I'm a jazz/rock musician myself, but the idea of writing for an ensemble and having it performed in the way a classical composer does seems like it would be very gratifying. I just wonder how it all works in the classical scene, from commission to writing to finding musicians to perform it, event organising etc. If you wrote a piece for orchestra, you wouldn't choose the musicians yourself? But with a small ensemble, you would? Thanks :)
Thanks. Sometimes you find friends, but apart from that it's a long process of trying to get established in the scene (sometimes you might apply for competitions etc) and eventually groups small and large might commission a new piece. It's very difficult though!
14:28 as to the "no-no" of 2 unison violins: I had a friend/colleague who wrote his first string quartet which was premiered alongside an art song I wrote at Manhattan School of Music- his piece brought this to life vividly. He was a pianist and in his string quartet he wrote extensive passages where the first and second violin played in unison.
It sounded HORRIBLE.
As a violinist myself it never would have occurred to me to write the two violins in unison (well.... except maybe for one or TWO notes for dramatic effect or for, say passages where the entire ensemble is playing a passage in unison, or in octaves) so it was interesting to hear it happen in his music, and realize it was a principle. I never would have been consciously aware of it otherwise. I would have just unconsciously avoided it without even realizing I was doing it or why.
Please don't forget that there is a C Clarinet (that Beethoven used in the 5th Symphony!). I own one. It can be written in C where C is C. Treble clef. Saves the composer days of time.
Im studying music composition (in university) and we use Adler: it's very usefull
I think I read somewhere that Messiaen said that Villa Lobos was one of the greatest at orchestration, I am a pianist and play a lot of Villa Lobos, I'd love to hear what your stance is on his works for orchestra, and what makes them stand out.
About euphoniums and baritone saxhorns having a B-flat key in treble clef and C key in bass clef: These instrument have been more popular in wind-band music. During the late 1800s, the British factory bands would buy a complete set of saxhorns (alternating in keys of E-flat and B-flat). These bands desired to switch (mostly amateur) players from one instrument to another. The keys pressed for each note (fingerings) were consistent from instrument to instrument SO LONG AS all the sheet music was in treble clef. So in sheet-music sets for these bands (and modern brass bands), it's not unusual to find both treble clef (in B-flat) for the baritone , along with a bass clef version in C. I've even seen sheet-music sets with the bass (tuba) in both treble and bass clefs. This allows the player of a normally treble clef instrument to switch to a euphonium or even a tuba without having to figure out and learn a new set of fingerings. It's also helpful to understand that many euphonium and tuba players in wind bands almost always start out as cornet or trumpet players (B-flat instruments in wind bands). Most American junior high school and high school bands have a shortage of euphonium and tuba players. So the band directors usually find a young cornet player who's willing to switch to euphonium or baritone.
If you were to buy a just-published set of sheet music for a high school band, the set will almost always contain both a treble clef and bass clef version of the music for euphonium. If you buy a just-published set of sheet music for a brass band (no woodwinds), you will definitely find a both a treble clef and bass clef version for the euphonium, but frequently both a treble clef and bass clef version for the bass (tuba).
curious why there is a big spring hanging behind David. Was it there since the episode "Spirals in music"?
Not to mention that sometimes, the horn in the bass clef is written an octave lower than it should logically be, and sometimes it's written the logical way. And it's not always clear which way someone has written it.
Andri from Pagefire is a great channel!
Actually, in the US the Bb trumpet is just as common in orchestral scores as the C trumpet, and the Bb is preferred for concert band, jazz, or chamber ensembles.
Wow I just discovered than I can listen so easily to that metal version of Shostakovic and actually enjoy it, while the violin version is almost unhearable for me musically... I never would have liked that piece with classic instruments. And I even play violin for fifteen yrs!
I absolutely love composing can literally spend hours at it, regretfully i am not any good at it. I think something sounds decent and then the next day I am scrapping it. I showed my work to a couple people they said it's OK, but I am always criticizing myself. How do you deal with that?
I hear you.
I'm currently being mentored by a composer and she keeps inviting me to think beyond good and bad. I think there is something important there in what she is trying to teach me.
Try this, next time you come back to a piece the following day and don't like it, find the part of it you like the least. The bit that's really sounding wrong. Then delete all the rest but keep the wrong bit. Now try and turn the volume of wrongness up to 11, if you get my meaning. How can you accentuate that wrongness? How can you make that as wrong as it can be. Spend a day doing that. You'll probably find something in there that's important.
Start with a sketch instead of a detailed orchestration. Something that gives you the gist of it, without the fine detail, and that takes you less than an hour. Then listen tomorrow or a few days later, and if it sounds like garbage, start over on the basic idea and try to improve it. Once you get something you still like after a day or 2, THEN fill it out a little more, and leave it again for a few days, to see if you like it later.
Never spend more than an hour working on your piece, until you find you still like it after a few weeks.
The problem is, you get too close to it, when working persistently on it. Music is not like graphic art - it is time-based, and can only be perceived accurately in a fresh space of timed sequence [I don't know how to explain that]. Listening to it over & over while arranging it/working on it, only distorts your sense of it more. You have to hear it fresh, from beginning to end, after a long break [a few days] in order to hear it the way your audience hears it. Anyway, that is the main thing that makes writing interesting music so difficult.
Until you get enough experience to write an idea quickly, that you know will work, and the ability to arrange the consecutive sections, so they come at you just right, you need to work the way I describe above, so you don't lose perspective and get lost in your sense of how it actually sounds.
@@jameseverett4976 Awesome approach - thank you so much
The Cambridge guide to orchestration is excellent.
it helped me branch out to write for other instruments different from my main instrument which is bass trombone
How to write for trombone: give us something loud or maybe a steep ask but can we get the melody?
In South Korea, the National Gugak Center or the National Center for Korean Traditional Performing Arts has an orchestra composed entirely of traditional korean instruments. It functions very much like western classical music with korean instruments replacing western instruments with similar functions. I was at first excited to hear this performance, but I was actually rather disappointed by the music. It sounded like western music with a few korean grooves. Smaller ensembles that were traditionally used in korea offered me something more - something different from western music. Just changing the instrumentation didn’t really do much for me. Not accusing you of that, but I do see lots of composers pretending like they’re doing something different by adding a few “exotic” instruments. I think Boulez’ vision is to not only have new instruments, but also change the functions of all instruments. Rather than putting a cherry on top of the cake, change what a cake is altogether by incorporating the cherry in a radical fashion. Mason Bates is a good example of that with electronic instruments. But I don’t see as many good examples with non-western instruments, particularly East Asian. Yun Isang is the only composer that comes to my mind. Do you have any other examples in mind? Thanks!
Takemitsu and Unsuk Chin are great. Check out Šu for sheng and orchestra.
진은숙 (Unsuk Chin) to me is more western. Even the kind of eastern music she’s fascinated by is western. What I mean by this is that westerners tend to have a particular interest in eastern music that’s typical of the west. For example, their fascination with Japanese or Balinese gamelan that date back to Debussy. 진은숙 professes to be interested in gamelan and I definitely hear the gamelan influence (particularly the impression of gamelan by western composers) on her music - abstracted rhythms and sound textures. She wrote at length about the significance of korean music (not on her particularly) but in its uniqueness as a whole in a korean interview once. She said she was learning from korean masters and working on something. I still haven’t heard something remotely as “korean” as Yun Isang from her though. Isang’s works are Korean at a conceptual level. Isang’s Reak, for example, is highly influenced by traditional Koran music - particularly the kind that was played in the palace. It breathes and feels time and sounds in a way that’s fundamentally true to that music of the past, at least in my opinion. He also uses korean instruments in many different settings. Often without a large ensemble, which was usually how they were played in Korea. Cannot find anything remotely similar from Chin Unsuk. Not that that is a bad thing. She can do whatever she wants. She’s a highly respected composer herself. Just not what I’m looking for in the particular context of “korean” music.
I haven’t checked out Takemitsu much. Maybe I’ll check them out!
@@user-sz4sm5ks6e For the most part, I agree with you about Chin. If you want Japanese from a conceptual level, Takemitsu is the way to go. In an Autumn Garden, for example, is written for a gagaku orchestra.
Julius Seizure Thanks! I definitely need to check them out then!
Chin once talked about the dangers of exoticism and that is why she avoided using Asian instruments until Su. I think it’s difficult for anyone to write such music without sounding like they’re “exoticizing” or using it as a trinket. We essentially all live in a western world. There is no non-western world at this point. Global capitalism has taken over everything. Yun Isang, luckily, lived in a time before Fukuyama’s End of History.
You can easily get an upbeat sound in the bass register by writing a melody in the bassoon.