Roland Fantom Polyphony Problems
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- čas přidán 22. 01. 2023
- The Roland Fantom is a powerful keyboard workstation on the market today. With such a wide array of features, I find it shocking that the polyphony is not much better than what keyboards had decades ago.
As much of a Fantom fanboy I am, I have to agree with you 100%. I'm so frustrated that Roland limited this board this much.
You would think Roland would be looking at what people are saying and doing something about that
@@user-dy1ow9zi7bI never had any poly problems.
Seems like my OG Fantom X6 didn't have these problems
And it is not a cheap gear. I saw Frank Tedesco using one. I am wondering how we handles that.
As much as I like the user interface of the Roland Fantom-8 I think I'll get a Kurzweil K2700. For Roland sounds you can use the free Zenology plug-in with 240 tones and 10 drum kits, upgradable to 4,106 tones and 109 drum kits which can be expanded to over 10,000 tones. Thank you very much for a very informative video. This kind of polyphony issues are not acceptable for a high-end keyboard like the Roland Fantom.
Yes, the first time I played my new Fantom on the default patch, I played some fast notes and strung them with a sustain pedal and I noticed drop-out notes. I said, "oh no my fantom is broken". My first ZenCore keyboard, and, yes again, up to 8 notes of polyphony per single key press with 4 stereo partials. But later that week I started using the Fantom as a synthesizer, creating my sounds from initialized blank canvas. I first re-created my favorite sound design I made on my Gaia with 3 mono partials and polyphony problems went away, even with large layers. I realized the ZenCore stereo4partial is only for preset users to keep the big stereo image sound, stereo partials are for novices. There is no need for stereo partials in sound design, in fact, I don't want them.....why?.... We have stereo panning of each oscillator, a very powerful necessity for making big stereo field patches, for this we need mono partials, the stereo partials cancel out my intended stereo field. So if you use the Fantom as it is intended, as a synthesizer for sound design there isn't any polyphony problems. IF you use it as a rompler you may be disappointed.
I chose to buy the FantomO6 and the RD-2000, it was less expensive than a Fantom8 and they are in a two-tier stand working together beautifully. I want piano action for some patches, but prefer synth action for most others, this way I have both. And of course, I can layer up both the RD and Fantom for gigantic patches working together if I wish. The V-Piano is the main reason for the RD purchase though. The main reason I bought the Fantom is for the group launch from the 4x4 pads. This is a fantastic feature where I can launch long sequences from these pads and play other synths in orchestration. An incredible feature with an incredible sequencer allowing me to adjust my quantize strength from 0 - 100%, I have found a 77% quantize setting for my style of performing has the Fantom playing back my sequences precisely as I play them in. No more robot sounding slammed to the grid sequences!!! The Fantom is human!!! Roland has done it again, a beautiful digital synth for the musician. So use the Fantom as a synthesizer for sound design as synths should be, not a rompler, and you will love it.
This is an amazing video. I've been considering Fantom-8 and was horrified to hear it has the same polyphony issues as keyboards I owned 20 years ago. You express the issues so well. It's not that there are no (compromising) workarounds. It's that it's a total disgrace that they're releasing a $4,000 machine in this day and age that can't competently play a three voice song.
Totally agree..as someone who worked in the 90s, this is unbelievable to me as well..this just put me off getting one
@@moodybg I got a Nautilus and Privia instead and have been very happy.
Looking to add the Juno 106 model expansion and wondering if those sounds count against the polyphony …or is it considered a separate ‘synth’ with its own polyphony
Darrick ... really like your videos and insight to making music ... .could you possibly create a video explaining in detail using the sequencer on Fantom ... I still get confused ... so frustrated ... again ... thank you for the channel and videos!!
Darrick , I totally agree w/ you! I recently purchased, a Roland Fantom 07 that gas the same issue. I also have a Montage 8 and I really don't notice it that much. I'm thinking of returning the Fantom 07 and getting a MODX 7+.
I appreciate the video. I’ve been eyeing the Fantom recently and this for sure is pushing me away from that decision. Crazy that there’s better cheaper options
You should try it out first. Depending on your playing style, you may not have an issue.
Definitely avoid. Fantom always was a nigh worthless platform anyway and was severely rushed.
I am a professional solo pianist using whatever is on stage, but acoustic, nonetheless. But I live in a tiny apartment with many neighbors so I must practice piano with a digital piano and headphones all the time. Up until 2022 all digital pianos were extremely disappointing to me, and it seemed to take a decade of time to make small improvements. I have waited 35 years for digital piano hardware to come of age, and this year I feel it has. My latest purchase of the Yamaha DGX-670 is the first Dpiano I can enjoy practicing on. For the first time I don't cringe from the sound of a digital and the short decay length of the notes and sustain pedal. I have full control of what the piano sounds like (sound design) and it only took a few hours to target in on my perfect piano sound for my headphone choice. The sample is great and mostly even across the 88 with a little brightness on top, much like the Yamaha acoustics. So with this great sample sound design for tweaking it to a classically tuned and voiced Steinway Concert D was not much effort. So it is finally getting better! (NOTE: ONLY the Yamaha DGX-670 model is any good, all other DGX models for the past 20 years I would never consider, the current DGX-670 is totally different from all other DGX past models. Don't make a mistake and buy and old model!)
I run into this issue quite a bit, especially with all of the synthesis I use in my projects. As a matter of fact, it just happened with a single Juno patch, before watching this. The n/zyme model expansion is the worst offender. It's like you said, you could cut it off from the partials, but you are going to lose some of the sound, which is not an acceptable compromise.
With all of the shortcomings of the Fantom, it amazes me that Roland hasn't been more proactive, in fixing some of these issues. They should have resolved time-stretching and polyphony issues, by now... especially with it being their flagship keyboard.
Ironically enough, I am just about wrapping up the video for my 2nd year review. With all of the awesome synth vsts out there, I have been primarily using the Fantom as a glorified MIDI controller, with a microphone hooked into the interface.
Nice work! 👍
I think these shortcomings are unacceptable for the price. The technology is out there but I think the manufacturers are protecting their profit margins. I can buy a powerful computer, Native Instruments Komplete 14, Ableton Live 11, MIDI Controller, AND speakers for the same price or LESS than this keyboard alone. That setup would be exponentially more powerful than the Fantom. So I am sure Roland, Yamaha, and the like could really step it up and give use better internals. The answer I commonly get is R&D is so expensive, etc. But the price of Apple Stock was less than .30 when the Roland XV3080 launched back 23 years ago. That unit is 128-voice polyphony. Somehow Apple figured out how to do R&D while their shares were less than 30 cents. Seven years later they launched the iPhone. Twenty years later my Mac Studio can handle over 100 tracks with no issues and Roland has the same limitations it had over 20 years ago.
@@darrickkeels6387 Funny you should mention Native Instruments. I am just about done with the Fantom, and getting a Maschine/88 Key combo to replace it. I definitely got my use out of it (300+ songs), but I am ready to move on. Roland needs to do better, especially for their flagship.
The Juno model is limited to 16 note polyphony. All the models are very limiting (18 for the J8xp, 22 I think for the SH101 and 28 for the Jupiter). This was a known compromise of adding models to fantom - it was discussed BEFORE Roland added then and they were very open about how it would limit polyphony. The models are really for SOLO use., If your layering a loit, you need to stick to Zencore really (bass and lead sounds are fine as there normally mono anyway). As for "fixing" polyohony, thats not easy. The models are so low because of the processing power needed for the filter emulations mostly. This is also true of zencore sounds using the modelled filters (tthe R/M/P and generic one). They cant add more processing power.... They can (as I discussed above) streamline the signal flow so if your using the same filter settings on all partials you can sum them before the filter - then just use one filter (as oposed to one per partial - which could add 4 times the polyphony for that tone IF its a 4 partial tone). They could also open one of the chips to the existing engines (currently, of the 4 chips, the V-Piano uses one, and all the other engines use a 2nd. From what we know the 3rd and 4th are currently un-used, and are for future development). If they dod both those - then you could theoretically double the polyphony across the board, then add more IF your using multiple partials that share the SAME filter settings. This has all been suggested to Roland - but what we DONT know is if its actually possible to DO that in a FW update or if its hardware locked.
I’ve been running in to these issues during worship playing. Can’t wait to try these little fixes you attempted to do.
Let me know if you have success.
@@darrickkeels6387 lol! No success! Still the same issue man.
I too have a Fantom 7, an Integra 7 rompler and a Kronos2 (88 key). I do also have an 88 key Korg Trinity that use to drive a JV 2080 with all slots filled> it seems to me that if you have a frequency of maxing out a system, just play 2 keyboards at once. As I am an old geez, at 70 in April, I don’t bring computers to live gigs, but in my studio have both Arturia’s V Collection and Steinberg’s Absolute Collection in my Mac Studio desktop, driven with Arturia’s Keylab 61 MKII. I can see reasons to being let down by the Fantom Series, but I love mine and see other work-around besides cutting tracks or tembres.
I am saving for a Korg Pa5X 76 and should be on Sweetwaters waiting list by March. Sure, its an arranger, not a synth nor ‘workstation’, but would love to know how well it does polyphony with those duel engines.😊I
It's cool that Ed Diaz commented on your video, maybe they can figure it out.
Yes..Ed Diaz from Roland did respond to the video. And in my opinion, it was a pretty dismissive. He said he is able to do have lots of layers and splits with no issues. He asked if I was simply holding the sustain pedal down the whole time and stated that would cause polyphony issues with any keyboard. He mentioned, however, that he would replicate my layers and see if he had an issue. He closed his statement by saying the Fantom is on many world tours and if there was a "problem" his engineers would know about it already. Nothing he stated however negates what I demonstrated in the video. I gig with my Fantom more than any other keyboard but I know the polyphony architecture is not the best. Most musicians on a "world tour" have a multiplicity of tools, so they can easily compensate for a shortcoming. I personally have a Nord Stage 3, Korg Kronos, Fantom-0, Fantom, Montage, MODX, RD-2000, FA08, Korg M50, an M2 MacBook Pro with 50,000 VSTs, and so on but not every has those kinds of options and when they buy a "flagship" they expect it to be able handle the heavy lifting. Otherwise, why pay $4000 for a keyboard? I made a followup video in which I captured all of the MIDI from the Fantom. Both the SuperNatural Piano and the Zencore Piano had polyphony issues when layered over an RD-1000 and Soft Pad sound. Then I played the same MIDI through the Yamaha Montage. I used the Montage's most polyphony intensive acoustic piano and layered it over a multi-oscillator pad and a multi-oscillator EP and it played back with zero issues. I didn't even utilize both sound engines in the Montage. I used only AWM-2 sounds which is 128-voice polyphony. No notes dropped. Here is the link if you want to check it out.
czcams.com/video/bv2de7CGEXY/video.html
I don't think reps push technology. They go through a rehearsed demo and blag the rest. There is no way you do ''lots of layers'' with Fantom. It's polyphony issue is present with almost no user effort.
Thanks for showing this.
Hi Darrick! Thanks for your videos they are great!
I have another problem with the Fantom8: I ordered the first one from Guitar Center, waited three months, after receiving the keyboard sent it back the next day to the GC because one key had a mechanical problem. The sales engineer gave me a good price for a keyboard replacement, BUT I would have to wait another 2-3 months (that's too long). So I decided to order it from Sweetwater. A few weeks later I received a second keyboard BUT the other key had some issues (much heavier than the adjacent keys) so it was sent back to Sweetwater the next day and now I'm waiting for a THIRD one for a replacement! I hope everything will be OK! If not, Roland is finished! $4000+ and so many headaches it's too much!!! just carry it to the shipping store, it's a huge quest in itself!
That is terrible. Hopefully you get a good unit soon.
You really ripped em a new one dude, lol. Subbed, I'm learning a NI, S88 now, and was considering a FA 07, until I saw this.
So the FA07 does not have the same polyphony issues that plague the Fantom and Fantom-0 series. Which is shocking because the FA07 came out years before the Fantoms.
This issue is actually a reason you're not seeing it appear all that much over here in Japan. It's not always bad but when it hits it's damn terrible. You're literally switching things off all over the place to feed a single piano.
That's why I'm sticking with my Yamaha DX7
40 years later and it's still my favorite synthesizer
Hi. I made a similar soundset in my FA 07-230 last year with the SN piano, a RD1000 layer and a SN symth pad layer, and get the same poliphony problems. What a shame that it goes to the mighty fantom also... I hope they can fix it via firmware update. These are awesome synths, with great engines.
FA has never struggled with Poly. I am not sure it's even possible on that engine with the lower spec demand. Nice try though.
Glad I swapped my Fantom 08 for the MODX7+
I use a lot of Zen-Core VA and Model Expansion sounds, and there I noticed that unfortunately 256 is polyphony, not more than 128. That wouldn't be a problem, but here it is, like with my Access Virus TI2 synthesizer, which is Virtual Analog, that the polyphony may decrease with certain filter types, and that if 12dB is set to 24dB, and the effects. This is an acceptable fact for synthesizer sounds, but I would not have thought that with the SuperNatural Piano, RD, and Pad sounds the polyphony would be exhausted. I love the Fantom 7, it has very good synthesizer sounds, that's why I bought it, but the features are in many ways a step backwards compared to its predecessors. I think that this synthesizer should not have been named Fantom. Why? Because it's not a Music Workstation. They put everything that a Music Workstation should have, but only a little bit of everything. If the plan was to be the successor to the Fantom G, then it should not have been taken away from it, but added to it. The arpeggio is pathetic. It is not possible to create your own arpeggio, in many cases the synchronization is also inaccurate. I don't have a problem with the sequencer, although instead of 64 Measures, there could have been 256 Measures here, like in Montage. It's been 1 year and since then they haven't released any new updates for their main flagship synth. I love Fantom, but I'm also disappointed. Overall, the Montage is more reliable in all aspects, the only problem for me is that it is still only AWM2 and has an FM-X engine.
Great video, thank you for it. I am new to work stations and Roland Keyboards. I actually emailed Roland Support about this, and essentially they told me to use less voices, or less notes per chord or raise up off the expression pedal / damper to reset the polyphony. They were also dismissive that the problem was on them, it was all on me. Very disappointed with Roland for putting something out in the market that doesn't work as described. Again thank you for your video
That was pretty much their response to me. And basically saying all keyboards have polyphony limits. Hence I made this video comparing it to the Montage. The Montage had no problems, while the Fantom struggled. czcams.com/video/a42WgNbZtlY/video.html
@@darrickkeels6387montage is very pricey. What is the comparison to ModX and Pc4? What about Fantom?
You just light up my tunnel..
THIS VIDEO CHANGED MY LIFE THANKS SO SO MUCH!!!!
So tbh I thought that my Roland Fantom 08 is f broken until I found your video up here and saw that this is a real issue that it's actually limits me (& ANNOYING) from literally creating what and how I want to create. I am so so frustrated now about this. What else do you recommend in this price range and also in the same is specifications?
I made a 2023 wish list for my fantom with a new firmware upgrade, not gonna happen any soon I think. This polyphony voices cutting off is a real shame. “Shall all the Fantom owners who have similar work flow facing this shoot mail to Roland support or report to Roland backstage?”
When I had the same issue first noticed with Nzyme model , the support person on the chat mentioned that I am layering many voices with expansion models and asked not to over do it. Your example is a perfect everyday live gig scenario that must be addressed.
I’m going to try the same patch to reproduce it and push them.
Hey Darrick keels. I got my fantom 08 a couple of months ago thanks to one of your videos (fantom 0 vs Modx). I bought it mainly because of layering ability which I likes a lot.
I thought I did something to my keyboard because that polyphony issue is omnipresent. Even some single sounds have the same problem when you use your sustain pedal. Watching this video tells me that I’m not the only one scratching my head. It might be a powerful instrument but if they can’t fix this polyphony issue and other ones that’ll be a deal breaker for me. You have to be careful to avoid these issues when playing it which is insane in 2023.
Thanks for this video exposing these problems and our frustrations as well
I purchased Yamaha MODX+. It was correct.
Take a look at the StudioLogic Numa X piano GT. Not a workstation but capable of layering 4 sounds with simple editing features. No polyphony issues though and a wooden key bed as a bonus🙂
***Think I found a kind of solution for this problem. The options are there guys!! *** Darrick thanks for this Chanel! I recently subscribed and I have learned a lot about my new Fantom 0 in just a few days. I love your contents! About the polyphonic issue that you mentioned I just discovered something that is working nicely for me. You mentioned that in zone edit we can put the voice assign mode in Full to try to get any improvement on this matter but still limited. But look at this, on the next column named “voice reserve” you can also extend your polyphonic a lot. It is in 0 by default and when you increase to 10 for example all keys sound simultaneously without any cutoff. You have up to 64 to extend your polyphonic and this is great, then if you have for example 6 different instruments you just have to split your capacity of 64 as you desire. Also in the Mono/Poly section you can changed from “tone” to “poly”. When you finish your setup remember to save your changes. Hope this can be helpful for anybody having the issue. Good luck!
In early 2022, I thought that a Fantom 6 would combine the best features of my Kronos 2 and MODX. So I part Ex’ d the Kronos that I really liked for the 6. This gave me lots of features I didn’t really need, but didn’t have some of the features I expected like SST and proper sequencer, but my biggest issue was with the pianos, especially the electrics. I did tweak them as much as I could and loaded pianos from the cloud, but I still felt they lacked warmth and sounded a bit thin. Anyhow the mother board failed and after four months Roland could not confirm when it would be repaired. So I asked the shop if they would keep it and let me have a Nautilus and they agreed to do it. I suppose I tool a little financial hit in doing so, but I’m really glad to have the Korg sounds back with me and glad I didn’t part ex the MODX as well.😊
My Rig is similar...Nord Electro 5D, MODX 6 and Nautilus...But being a gear whore...im here looking and the Roland Fantom06...I feel I need all manufactures sound pallet...I like the pad funtions for triggering loops and samples...Used to have a FA06 but sold it last year.
Also the Akai 61-might be worth checking out to give you something a bit different 😊
Thanks Darrick , your channel is Awesome 👌. Because of this polyphony problem what keyboard would you recommend might I ask
It really depends on what a person is looking for out of their keyboard.
I second Darricks answer here. Fantom is fantastic - there are ways aroud the polyphony issue to a point (More so on the F than the 0 series). The poly issue is that Supernatural sounds are limited to 64 not4es, or 54 if you have tone remain on (which most will) - obviously layers reduces that further. Its also possible to create zencore synth sounds that also have low polyphony 4 partial sounds using modelled analogue filters are down to around 28 notes for a single tone). Its also possible to have a single tone with 216 notes (even with tone remain on - 256 with that off) allowing you to layer two of those tones and still get 108 notes. When it comes to poly, Kronos is 128 notes...flat. Layering sounds still shares that polyphony though (as far as I know - this is the case on almost if not all keyboards). I believe ModX/Montage are the same at 128 notes as are kurzweils (most modern workstation style boards are - though more synths are dynamically assigning polyphony based on patch complexity and I expect more workstation style boards to start doing this - it allows for greater flexibility in sound design with the downside that it makes it the users responsibility to check polyphony witht eh sound choices is OK). The key is what you need before it becomes obvious.... as can be seen the 54 notes of supernatural sounds is too low - the 128 or Kronos is fine (as Ive not really seen any problems there - until you start layering 5/6/7 sounds). So, to some extend it depends if your happy substiitutuing sounds and reworking them until poly is fine for your need (on fantom - beinring in mind you CAN get MORE than Kronos/ModX etc if you want to - at a cost to the tone itself potentially, but not always). If you dont want to have to think about that, then you neeed to look elsewhere. BUT, as a quick summing up.... Fantom is great for subtractive synth sounds - nothing else comes close IMO, and its got the best UI and real time controls. Montage/ModX is great at accoustic and FM sounds. Kronos is OK at both but not brilliant BUT it is the best at sampling and sequencing. Nautilas is basically a Kronos minus Karma and with less hands on controls (which may or may not be an issue). Stage 3 is a decent performance board but its not a workstation in any form, and limitied in many ways. Im less familure with the Kurzweils, but like the Yamahas they traditionally excess at accoustic sounds - and also IF you can master there V.A.S.T synth its also very good - ALMOST as good as Fantom despite being older by some bit. Personally, the next board Ill probably buy will be Korgs next release...... Nautilas is a stop gap, forced because they couldnt source the internal componants to continuse manufacturing the boards, so they designed a new board with newer componants but still run the Kronos engine on that - and stuck it in a new box. The lack of controls is money saving as its a relatively short lifespan board (how short depends on how long the new board takes to develop, and nautilas may well continue after that as teh 2nd tier baord). the guess is it will impriove sonically on Kronos - better VA - quicker boot ups, more storage AND they have seen Montages superknob and Fantoms UI/control and modelling...... Im guessing they may well offer at take on the popular features of both boards as well as their own next gen. The PROBLEM is we have no way of knowing how far along that development is..... Fantom took 10 years development until release, and my guess is Korg are well along their path (somewhere between 5 and 8 years Id guess). If I were a betting man Id say early 24 - possibly pushing to 25 depending on componant availability. Note that all the "Next Korg" notes are guesswork - albeit educated guesswork.
@@paulmapp8306 thank you for your detailed reply 🙏 I'm new to keyboards but have been playing guitar 🎸 for many years 😀 I'm very excited about learning keyboards, thanks again 😀
@@aahmed8239 I'm actually primarily a guitarist actually.....
It’s been a synth i love to hate.. crazy. I went back and bought the Fantom 6 again. Great video
Why do you love to hate it? Lol!
Does anyone know of any work arounds on the pitch bend speed? It seems to have trouble staying in tune when you pitch a sound at the end of a pattern when the loop comes around, and it's really slow too? Has any of the latest updates helped with this or solved this issue? I really love the Fantom 06, but that's the main reason that I bought it was for fast orchestral pitch bends, and the irony is that it is the worst thing on the unit itself, go figure...Has anyone else been having problems with the tuning going out of whack when using pitch bends? If anyone knows something that I don't, please, I'm always down to hear other's knowledge on things like this. Thanks...SBN RESONATE
I believe this is a known issue with the Fantom 0 series. Its not a problem on the full fat F. Roland are aware and I believe there will be a fix in the next FW (if they find a FW fix of course and its not hardware related - ie the physical sensor) - whenever that arrives.
I’m thinking about getting the 7 , and I’m a Roland guy. It’s been like
This for years on their boards honestly but , do you think this is something that can be worked out w/ a firmware update ?
If you are a Roland guy I think you will like the Fantom. Especially if you are not trying to layer piano/pad sounds and playing them like a piano. If like to layer sounds with piano, it is best to use the V-Piano sound engine. My main issue is that I feel with the advances in chip technology we've had over the past 20 years, polyphony should be far better in every keyboard. I don't think Roland sees it as a problem, so I seriously doubt a firmware update is coming
ZenCore is a demanding engine and of course most want to capitalize on it, being a central focus now. It can't be streamlined or improved beyond a point in this area. Which is why I see the loss of the dedicated chips from the flagship to be a greater loss than most do (with regards to the 0-series).
If you imagine what Darrick has just said. Envision the gain with VPiano in a potential setting with 88 keys. Then swap instead to what is essentially the same tech minus the processing power on the Fantom-0. A device which has no Vpiano. It's truly a nightmare to even use it live. Sure you can keep it extremely simple and not push the board. But that's not what most people want from something with the supposed potential to offer more. It's knowing that the handicap is there. Knowing that soft options or even older boards, don't face the same problems - that put a lid on any enjoyment or creativity. It can be a benefit to work with limits. But there's nothing beneficial about knowing your board can't even handle a Piano comp at times.
I get a lot of flak for it but I simply don't like ZenCore as it stands with its current tax on electronics vs what is sold/provided. It's simply not enough Poly for the capability. Jupiter X is actually better tailored to handle the demand on its use. However, it's a much more specialized device with its own drawbacks.
I definitely see the flagship as the only real viable usage. In the Fantom-0 set the best option is really being used in the vein Modx is. I wouldn't dream of risking it as an 8x board.
Has there been any firmware updates that have made this issue better?
Are the polyphony limitations different for the sound expansion models? E.g. does the Juno-106 models requires less polyphony, etc.
Those expansions have less polyphony. But they are mimicking analog synths that also didn't have much polyphony, so in my opinion that is okay.
Hi Darrick, congratulations on the channel. I bought my fantom 7 influenced by your channel and other channels I follow. I already have a Korg Kronos 2 73 and a Montage 7. In terms of polyphony management, the Kronos comes out on top in my opinion. There is something that I still don't understand, V-PIANO and VTW have defined channels, this makes it impossible for you to be able to add them to other zones, it's something that I don't understand why montage and Kronos don't have these problems.
The Montage and Kronos have a very different architecture. The Montage doesn't have a virtual tonewheel organ. It simply has two sound engines. The Kronos is working off of an SSD with various "plugins" essentially. That's a bit of an oversimplification. But the short answer is the keyboards are simply built very differently software wise. And the Kronos is very different hardware wise from the other two.
FANTOM and MONTAGE uses custom IC (integrated circuits) for its TG (tone generation) and effects. Kronos is a software synthesizer OS running on a dual core Atom processor with a high level of optimization down to core and thread level for each of its functionality making it more powerful than FANTOM or MONTAGE due to its software management and VI like architecture. If they replaced the CPU in the Kronos with a modern quad-core Atom (cheap models with latest node technology and Tremont based architecture), add a bunch of new soft-synth engines (modwave, wavestate and more), refine the existing engines with improved polyphony and sound quality, completely overhaul the UI (software and panel) to create something similar to FANTOM's UI and get rid of the Modes while still having a 16-track audio/midi sequencer (with the updates we've been asking for years), you are looking at the most power workstation on the market.
Поверьте, Kronos имеет абсолютно те же проблемы. Правда заметить это можно в основном в song-режиме и только в насыщенных инструментами и эффектами композициях. В живом же исполнении это легко заметить, если у Вас установлены платные и очень мощные библиотеки, например, KApro Epic Composer Private Collection. Особенно это заметно на насыщенных оркестровых комбинациях. Если Вы неосторожно переборщите с количеством одновременно звучащих нот и Вы любитель педали - вы познакомитесь с voice stealing во всей красе. Единственное, что спасает Kronos в насыщенных аранжировках - возможно засэмплировать любой трек или даже всю композицию, когда такая проблема возникает и продолжить наполнять композицию. Однако, это доставляет большие неудобства - это факт. На свете нет совершенства, но тем интереснее жить ;)
@@sergeytsibenko5964 Вы правы Сергей, простите мой русский, я использую Google Translate. У Kronos действительно есть проблемы с полифонией, особенно при использовании огромного количества сэмплов и различных аналоговых движков моделирования. Но я пытался понять, что Kronos справляется с проблемой полифонии намного лучше, чем MONTAGE или FANTOM. Единственными, кто на данный момент превосходит Kronos по полифонии и управлению, являются Kurzweil K2700 и последние предложения от Dexibell (в виде S4, S8, S8M, S10L и S10). Хорошего дня!
@@ablesam we can only hope that Korg finally release a worthy successor to the Kronos with all the features you mentioned in addition to not taking up to 3 minutes to boot up!
Hi, Darrick
This polyphony problems, for my little experience (I’m beginner), are not enough for me give up to buy a Fantom, but is always good to be aware about its Achilles hell.
Only for curiosity, do you know if the same problems occurs with Nord Stage 3?
Thank you very much.
A lot of users of the Fantom never experience any polyphony issues. Much of it depends on style of play and sound selection. I just feel that ALL performance synth/workstations should be giving us more polyphony than we had 20+ years ago and by quite a bit. But clearly it is still my main keyboard. So it's polyphony issues do not stop me from using it. And no, the Nord Stage 3 does not have the same issues.
@@darrickkeels6387
Thank you for your reply, Darrick. Unfortunately, here in Brazil there is no Nord/Clavia official seller and I have no option neither to try Stage 3.
@@darrickkeels6387 do you think this wi be an issue for church or worship setups?
Almost all users are experiencing the problem and Fantom is a complete failure all around.
Does the fantom 8 have this same polyphony issue? And can you fix the issue running the fantom through your Roland RD-2000?
The Fantom 8 is exactly the same. And yes if I use two keyboards polyphony issues go away for the most part. But now you are using two keyboards to play 3 sounds. I should not have to buy $6700 worth of keyboards for such a basic function.
@Darrick Keels you are absolutely correct..... I already have the Roland RD-2000, I just ordered a Fantom 8 from Sweetwater..... thats the only reason for my question, thank you so much for your speedy response, you are absolutely the best you tuber for informative reviews and knowledge about the videos you post... thank you for your commitment to excellence....
Darrick, this is important work. I feel that a whole generation of Fantom customers have been cheated out by Roland. This is truly a disaster.
I think the reason why hardware flagships not getting that much better features (polyphony being one of them) is that R&D costs money, designing custom chips and manufacturing them costs a lot as well, and people have been turning to software solutions. Can't say that I blame them, it's just easier and much more flexible (yes, there are downsides, I'm aware, but in my case the advantages prevail). I almost bought a Montage 6, but then I learned that if I want to record it digitally it has to become my audio interface (and pretty much every synth with a USB digital output does this, correct me if I'm wrong please). I admit, Fantom's release got me excited about HW synths briefly, until I tried to understand that whole BS with Zencore/cloud and related stuff, about which Roland makes the MOST TERRIBLE JOB at explaining. I still don't understand it.
WRT processing power - remember that your DAW runs on a powerful processor which can get very hot, which requires a decent mount of cooling, which can get noisy. And there might be latency involved. And, on occasion you still might hear a crack or a glitch. And we just shrug when PCs do it, because we give PCs much more leeway than we would give an actual hardware synthesizer. No synth manufacturer can take that kind of a risk.
I agree R&D costs a lot. But in the long run it will pay off. Apple's stock price was less than .50 a share in 2000. It was around $2.50 in the year 2006. In the year 2007 they launched the iPhone. Where did they get the money to do the R&D that would essentially change the landscape of mobile phones forever? I don't know. But they figured it out. Today one share of stock from Apple is over $130. Back then everyone could have said "There is no way for phones to have such high quality cameras in a small package. Without a big mirror you cannot get depth of field in your images." There are cellphones that now have 4K displays today that respond to touch. There have been all kinds of design obstacles and challenges to overcome in the past 23 years in the tech industry. The major difference is in other areas of tech the competition is fierce. Every company is trying to be innovative. HW keyboard manufacturers are simply behind the times and losing more and more customers to software solutions. It's going to be hard to sell HW keyboards for $4000 to a younger generation of musicians growing up today. They won't tolerate a keyboard that struggles to layer 3 sounds or only allows you to use 16 tracks to record. Not for $4000.
@@darrickkeels6387 phones are ubiquitous. Synths are niche and will never keep up with software (that is running on ubiquitous PCs). Sure, you can dump a boatload of money on R&D, but that would make the end result even more expensive and would mean losing even more customers to software. TBH I'm surprised that workstation-type romplers/flagships are still a thing. I think the future of hardware lies in performance keyboards, arrangers and machines like Korg OpSix, WaveState and ModWave. And I really applaud Korg for making them into VSTs once their production ceased, that's really the way to go IMO (now, bloody Yamaha, make me an AN1x VST and I'll pay. I'll pay dearly).
They don't have to "keep up." But to lag soooo far behind? Lol! There are digital mixers out there that have motorized faders which are capable of processing over 500 simultaneous effects, record 32 audio tracks at the same time, and work as a control service for a DAW with virtually no latency. Mixers are niche too. They have modern (but not the latest and greatest) multi-core processors in them. Their chassis are made of metal, they have touchscreens just like HW keyboards. They have WIFI, Bluetooth, etc and they run silent. If smaller companies like Presonus and Allen and Heath can do it, Roland COULD figure out a way. How many simultaneously sends and returns can the Fantom handle? Remember Allen and Heath is much smaller than Roland. Most of Roland's PCM samples are from the 90's. It takes virtually no power to run them. And no money to put them inside of a keyboard. They are digital files. The power happens when the new effects processing is added. Or the VA technology is hungry. They could literally have one chip dedicated to that. One chip for V-Piano, VTW organ, etc and two other chips for everything else. I am not an engineer. But what I know is engineers find a way. If what they come up with is good enough they could sell it for the next 20 years. The same way they are still selling sounds from the JV-1080 from 1994. 😄😄
Thanks Darrick for your awesome comments. I have not had these problems...yet...lol. My beef with Roland is with the yearly fee that keep wanting for the Roland Cloud. In my view when you buy a so called Flagship board, that should be free forever! I won't buy another Roland for that reason. My Quantum is 10 times the synth anyway..lol..Mark Bensette Aux Bois 🇨🇦.
Do you know whether they've silently fixed the polyphony issue in the newly released Fantom Ex model?
Great detailed review, thanks. I would think that this high-end keyboard would have polyphonic aftertouch ...
In Roland's defense, I can not name another workstation with that feature. Some synthesizers, yes. But nothing that can get a cover band keys player through a gig all by itself.
I get the impression most of you base this comment on devices like the Hydrasynth. This is possible for ASM for a number of reasons and not really feasible for other companies up until now. The demand was only really so-so (what people wanted/were willing to pay for) because implementations of AT have often been less than stellar.
Poly AT much like Osmose can be considered to be quite specialized. It's not a feel everyone wants.
I think you can set the voice reserve number to prioritize the tones that you don’t want to cut out
It still wouldn’t be enough for my playing style. But I could not show all of the options in the video. But there are many. I simply use the V-Piano engine and forego “Scene Remain.”
@@darrickkeels6387 I do it all the time in my Roland FA I prioritize most of the notes to my piano and a few to my pad…it works well for me I typically can run 5-6 sounds with no noticeable dropouts smh…they use to have a menu option where you could see the amount of voices each patch is using (it was in my xv3080)
I use the voice reserve too. It’s been working nice for me. I don’t use scene remain though and I mostly use the fantom for looping songs quickly instead of big piano sounds. I was having some polyphony drop outs before I found voice reserve though.
ciao grazie per il tempo che usi per farci conoscere queste splendide macchine. ho una roland fa 06 ma vorrei aggiungere un'altra tastiera, la fantom 7 oppure la nord wave 2. puoi darmi un consiglio? sono molto indeciso ti ringrazio tanto e buona musica ciao. ps tengo tanto ai sint. grazie per il tuo parere
If you are looking for a digital "synth" you can't go wrong with a Fantom 7. But if you still own the Fantom-0, I would recommend the Yamaha Montage.
Well said! I am a hardware Junkie, I started buying Vst's about 2 yrs ago. I went crazy because I think they have caught up and some ways have surpassed the hardware. I PURCHASED an M1 had it 3 days and took it back. The OS would not allow me install software to an external hard or boot external hard drive. I had bought so much software where a 2TB hard drive was not big enough and Apple wanted a body for a 4TB SSD. So, I purchase a Gaming laptop and I built a desktop took care of that problem. I have the VST's for pretty much every hardware workstation I have now, and so much more. So having both worlds just work great for me. I am watching Korg hoping they will address the Polyphony issue on the next workstation. Thanks DK your work is unmatched!
Thank you! Always good to see you stop by my channel.
Perhaps a stupid question... But I have no experience and want to buy my first keyboard (I also will go on lessons so it needs to be a bit portable). Should I buy an FP-E50 of a Fantom?
If you are a beginner and looking to learn how to play piano the FP-E50 is more than adequate. I believe it is 37 pounds or so. The Fantom 8 is 61 pounds in weight. Nit exactly "portable."
I believe the Scene Remain halves your tones / polypnony / zones bedause it needs to save space for the first 8 zones of the scene you will be switching to. Maybe that's the base problem ? Because without scene remain it should be fine right ?
Not exactly. Scene remain holds a few voices back from each tone so that you can basically hold a chord and switch scenes. It doesn't cut everything in half. In theory, scene remain works for all 16 channels. On the Fantom-0 it only allows you access to channels 1-8 if you want scene remain on. But the Fantom has double the BMC chips inside compared to the Fantom-0. There is simply not enough horsepower in this flagship unit in my opinion. We should not have to be scratching our heads trying to figure out which advertised feature we need to turn off in order to layer an Acoustic Piano over two basic PCM sounds that have been in Roland's gear for many many years. This is not a complex stack of instruments involving the arpeggiator, lush pads with complex moving filters made 4 four partials, alongside African Drums beating, with a lush choir, etc. It's three commonly used sound types together, and the keyboard is struggling. I understand everything has a limit, but in my opinion, this is just unacceptable for a keyboard that launched in 2019 and cost $4000 or so.
@@darrickkeels6387 Actually that is how I have heard it explained to me. It needs to keep voices clear for the zone you will be switching to. Also the reason why you only have the first 8 zones available when Scene Remain is turned on.
@@darrickkeels6387 Oh, I didn't know there was a differnce between the Fantom-0 and the Fantom. I have a Fantom-8 but I'm a complete beginner so only heard that being mentioned somewhere
Hi guys? I just bought the Roland Fantom 08. And I was doing a stress test and I found the problem of polyphony. I'm playing in a church, and on the laptop I used to use about 4 "layers" or instruments at a time. So, when I wanted to recreate the same thing in the Fantom 08 I realized that at most I can only use 2 layers, which is not very feasible for the use I give it. So I'm getting discouraged and I'm thinking of returning it, but before I wanted to see if there is any way to optimize it so as not to have so many glitches problems in polyphony, or am I going to have to return it? :(
Someone knows how can I fix this problem?
I wish I could tell you that there is a "fix." But there really isn't, especially if you are layering piano with other sounds like pads. Using the V-Piano sound engine is what I do with the Fantom if need be but with my Fantom-0, there is no V-Piano sound engine. I don't even think a lot of "coverband" musicians understand how much more demanding modern church music can be on keyboards. There is so much I like about the Fantom but the polyphony limitations is a real issue. I've switched to using software pianos in conjunction with my Fantom's other sounds. But in general, as much as I hate to say it, I think software based setups are the future.
@@darrickkeels6387 Do you know some piano i can use for live stage performance that have a high polyphony performance? thinking about i could play an acoustic piano and at the same time 2 additional pads
Yes Kurzweil K2700, Korg Nautilus or Korg Kronos. A Yamaha Montage or MODX but it will depend on which pads you use. If you use a PAD from the FM engine alongside your piano/pad from the AWM-2 engine you will be fine. Or the "Big Fantom" can do it if you stick to the V-Piano sound engine. Honestly, what I do now is use a laptop for my pianos. They sound better and polyphony is simply a thing of the past. I will use Pads, Bells and other sounds from the Fantom.
I was thinking about buying this keyboard, the polyphony issue is something I noticed. Instead of that I bought the Kurzweil PC4 and….it is a beast. 256 real polyphony. I love Roland, but, sincerely Kurzweil is one step beyond.
The Kurzweil wins despite the fact they have very little marketing. It is a shame as Fantom has great interface, sequencer and design.
The 256 voices are probably there for Zen-Core mono partials that use a TVF -12db filter and no unison, while the tone remain is off. Add tone remain, stereo partials, -24db filter, unison and some tones using the model expansions or SN sounds, and the polyphony is very quickly used up.
I nowadays only very rarely have polyphony issues with my Fantom despite layering multiple zones, because I've learned all this from experience and from reading others' reports. But as you've discovered, it's not obvious from the UI what takes a lot of polyphony and what doesn't. You can have two tones that sound about the same, but have wildly different polyphony requirements. This must be super frustrating to new users.
Indeed. According to the manual PCM oscillators require 2 voices minimum. Then add filters, tone remain, etc. This is why Roland says the "up to 256-voices." The system is far more complicated than the romplers of yesteryear. I just think it needs better processors to handle all the power underneath the hood.
@@darrickkeels6387 Yep, more processing power wouldn't hurt. But I think it would already be a big help if the UI told how "expensive" each tone is computationally, so you could see what affects what when making edits. And also it would be great to have some kind of a CPU load indicator to instantly see when you're approaching the limit.
@Oula Antere Indeed! The Kronos has that as well as the MPC Key 61. This way you can make informed choices! That would be a great upgrade for the Fantom. Clearly we cannot change the processors in the current units. Lol!
Ideally you shouldn't face walls, no matter how much you do or don't decide to do. Which is why everyone is switching to software instead of skirting around the issue like you. Of course if you had an IQ beyond that of a walnut, that would be obvious. Try engaging the brain next time.
@@darrickkeels6387 Do you know if the VA oscillators use less voices (e.g. only one per partial)? Thanks.
Sir ! I am waiting your comments on korg krome keyboard.
I'm hoping for a KORG KROME, but unfortunately it doesn't have a USB audio interface function.
USB is MIDI only.
Does this issue exist on the Roland fantom O series keyboards ?
yes
Even more so because the Fantom-0 doesn't have the V-Piano. With that said, I don't think it is a "issue" like a software glitch to be fixed. It's a limitation.
So many workarounds though, the resampling and layering options are insane. Or you could have a defective unit, are you sure you dont? I would definitely trade it in for another unit under warranty, and you may get a "special custom unit" after you have expressed the problem to roland. Good thing is, flagships are always updated quickly
Darrick, when you had the FA-08, did it show the same sort of polyphony issues?
Have not run into this isue on my FA06
Does it have all Roland Integra sounds plus more?
No. I have both the fantom 7 and an integra and the fantom doesn't have all the supernatural instruments that the integra have and those sound great. And the supernatural ones the fantom does have, some are the same as the integra and some aren't on the integra's level so you still need the integra even if the fantom claims to have the same supernatural ones as the integra. This was the biggest letdown as I had expected the fantom to be an "integra with a keyboard" and it was far from it.
@@effyiew7318 I second, all of this!
Integra 7 is a device by itself and as some say the pinnacle of supernatural sounds. You can't expect board that costs less to have what it has without any compromises lol. Fantom is zencore running some SN. It doesn't competently reproduce it and can't handle the sounds like past models. They should have left them out and would have. But there was too much community kick back.
This is a very serious issues for the money. A silly question- So if the Fantom has polyphony issues, does that affect the overall performance when I want to use the board for sound design? Is this something Roland can correct in a software update?
Hey Darrick, thanks so much for this review. I'm on the fence between the Fantom 07 and the Nautilus 76. Do you think the Nautilus has the same problem? Thanks again for your work!
No it doesn’t.
I've never seen that in any video. That's really sick. What are you doing to end the polyphony so quickly?
I was about to get a used Fantom, but that's really tough and would really annoy me, especially since I bought it precisely because of the layer function.
I don't understand this limitation either. One would really have expected a little more development by now. I don't have this limitation on the computer either. Really a shame. Now I'm thinking about the Fantom thing again...
Roland says their latest update (3.02) addresses the issue you've mentioned with layering and polyphony. If you have time, check it out.
The update tweaks the aftertouch but the polyphony is the same. Roland doesn't see the polyphony architecture as a problem per se. It's a limitation and it comes with its options for workarounds.
What would you buy today ?
Have you tried this phenomena on the Montage? Did you run out of polyphonies the same way there too?
Yes I have. I have better success with the Montage than I do the Fantom.
@@darrickkeels6387 Did you upgrade the MPC to version 2.11.7? And did you notice what happened to the USB midi when doing so? I've noticed it broke midi compatibility with the Montage, so when you're in "Multi" polyphony mode (when using the Montage keyboard as the main keyboard) it goes into endless midi sustain? I'd appreciate if you could test if it works for you (when and if you upgrade to 2.11.7) with the Montage, because your excellent instruction video on how to use the Montage with the MPC doesn't work anymore.
I have not updated my MPC Key 61 in a while. I did the first few and it seemed to pretty much take care of the crashes. My rule is "Do not update a working system." I will not update my computer, keyboards, etc. Lol! I sometimes break my rule but not with MPC. They are famous for fixing one thing and breaking another in the process.
Has this issue been addressed in a software update?
No, it hasn't. I have the latest software update installed. In fact, Roland's response to this video was fairly dismissive. They mentioned the Fantom is on world tours and being used by professionals, and no one has reported a problem. The representative said he never had a problem, and he layers and splits all the time. He also asked if I was just holding the sustain the whole time. Saying that would give any keyboard problems. So he was basically alluding to "user error." But, none of what he said negated the issue. Hence, I made another comparing it to the Montage. I had them play the same exact MIDI file. The Fantom struggled. The Montage did not. It's here: czcams.com/video/a42WgNbZtlY/video.html if you are interested.🙂
Does roland have an answer to this? Is this perhaps cause it's a less expensive version of the fantom.. Just like MODx vs Montage? Want one.... but this scares me
A representative from Roland did respond to the video. In short they said they create tons of layers and splits and have no noticeable issues. They asked if I was just holding the sustain pedal the entire time, siting that it would cause polyphony issues in any keyboard. They mentioned maybe the RD-1000 sound had a reduced polyphony so that it would accurately represent the actual RD-1000 keyboard that came out in 1986. But they weren’t sure. He said he would recreate what I made to see what was going on. He asked if my OS was up to date. And finally he said the Fantom is performing perfectly on world tours and IF there were any polyphony issues the Roland engineers would have already known about it. In my opinion it was dismissive. I made another video in which I captured the MIDI from the Fantom. Both the Zencore and SuperNatural acoustic pianos cut out badly. I then played the same MIDI file back through the Montage using its most polyphony hungry piano, a pad and EP and I had zero issues. I didn’t even take advantage of the FMX sound engine. Meaning it played everything without issues using 128-voice polyphony. And this is the flagship Fantom, not the Fantom-0. Here is the link to the Montage comparison czcams.com/video/a42WgNbZtlY/video.html
You're correct to say 'dismissive' as that second sentence is false, even if a little hyperbolic. You will get a ton of problems, if you're not being overtly careful with allocation. They know the architecture to the point they can make it perform within borders. That however is not the same as creative freedom.
Do you think they'll eventually have a system update to finally fix this problem someday? Or could be a hardware issue of being incapable of handling the polyphony of the sounds? Feels like Roland are trying to cover it up rather than address and resolve it in the long run...
I doubt it. Roland doesn't see it as a problem.
@@darrickkeels6387 Damn... That's a shame. The Roland Fantom 08 that I was gonna buy seemed like a great keyboard considering they said it would be capable of handling 256 note polyphony especially for the price. Oh well, hopefully Yamaha or Korg will have something even better with that amount when they release their new budget workstation keyboards someday.
I aggree with you completely!
I noticed sounds cutting out almost immediately. That happens even with 3 sounds layered together. Because of this I wish I had never bought the Fantom 08. I am very disappointed and unhappy with this keyboard (synthesizer).
Yes it is a problem for many.
Crippling a good word for frustrations with Roland. There never seems to be enough astute development in regards to pure usage and simplicity for the songwriter. And when they try to make it simple for example the sequencer set up could be so much more than what it is. Workarounds should not have to be in the equation at this point of the new Fantom series. Roland needs to add people to the beta of everything they do and maybe just maybe they could upgrade their direction in choices for what is best for their users BEFORE they go and release the next best thing ! Don't hold your breath.
Hi my friend,
Thank you for this very informative video. What's a shame for Roland !
You're speaking about "limitations", however for me it's more a "bug" or a kink !
By the way, I wish you a happy new year for you and all your family !
Same to you! Thank you for stopping by again! Always appreciate it.
Did they fix this yet? Waiting to get one
They don't think there is a problem. There are several workarounds though. I just wanted to do an honest review and let the viewer decide.
What happened to your MPC61? Do you not use it anymore?
I definitely use my MPC Key 61 all the time. If you saw the picture I posted showing my live rig setup, you can see the Fantom on the bottom and the MPC Key 61 on the top. I do not use the sampler or sequencer in the Fantom. All hardware sequencing, sampling, and Live backing tracks are handled by the MPC Key 61 and sometimes the MPC One.
@@darrickkeels6387 I didn't notice the MPC 61 in the picture. I'll look again. I would love to buy the MPC 61 but I'm not ready for my wife's reaction yet.
Wanted to chime-in and agree with Darrick's assessment. I've owned the Fantom 8 (twice) as well as the Fantom 7. I like a lot of things about the Fantom, but there are two main reason I don't currently use one (polyphony and aftertouch). When we're covering "Here I Go Again", I need a dense 4-part layer (acoustic piano, electric piano, vocal'ish pad, synth pad). With Kronos, Montage, K2700, MPC Key 61, Nord Stage 3... polyphony is never an issue. With Fantom, I can hear obvious note-stealing. Yes, I could reduce the complexity of the pads, but that defeats the purpose. Don't know about others, but I find the V-Piano a bit static/sterile. Whenever I get a new keyboard (especially for live use), that's one of the first sounds I program... because it's a litmus test on what I can expect (both programming and polyphony). I've used both Montage and Stage 3 (single keyboard) for many gigs. High polyphony (well managed) and seamless patch changes are what make this possible. There are times where I have to cover brass sounds (bane of my existence LOL!)... and I need effective/useable aftertouch for swells. The Fantom 8's aftertouch is more of an on/off switch (and requires a lot of force to engage). For me, Fantom's aftertouch is all but useless (adjusting curves doesn't resolve the fundamental issue). On the positive side, I like Fantom's UI, filters, keybed, and controllers.
Like I said in video, the Fantom is my main keyboard. I really like the UI. The DAW integration is great. I happen to use Ableton Live, Logic and MainStage (for live use). Those are thr DAWs that have the tightest integration with the Fantom. I like the build quality, the connectivity options, and the "Classic Roland Sound." But the polyphony has really been disappointing. Yes I can max out polyphony on keyboard. I know how. Which means I know how not to. But I find on the Fantom I do more fiddling around to "make it work." With other keyboards I simply don't have to put so much thought into layering a few basic and quite frankly old PCM sounds with a piano. The diehard Roland fans just keep saying "You don't understand the keyboard." But that is simply not true. I have a fairly good handle on the Fantom, how it works and how its polyphony can be managed. This is why I say I am disappointed in the "Polyphony Architecture." It wouldn't matter if a keyboard had 1000-voice polyphony if it was reduced by 900 when a filter was added to a pad sound. The result would be the same, notes cutting out. Roland's older gear simply performs better with the same sounds selected. So the Fantom is not managing the polyphony well.
Darrick, if I wanted a board that's great at bread and butter sounds, which board is best for that? How do you feel about the RD-2000?
Rd-2000
@@just908blaze1 That was a typo. An embarrassing type at that.
@@akibe7608 I didn’t see it
What do you consider bread and butter sounds? And how do you use your keyboard? Gigging professional? Home studio?
@@darrickkeels6387 Pianos, organs, guitars, bass, strings. I do absolutely no studio work. All live playing.
Thank you for that. I considered buying Fantom 0, PC4 or Modx. The decision is much easier now.
One way to solve the polyphony problem is to create a multisample. You can also sample layers upon layers of backing tracks. Although this is an extra setup step, it'll give you unlimited layers for a Fantom-only performance.
While I believe that is a solution in some use cases, I think it is fairly impractical in many ways. For example, the main polyphony offender in this video was the acoustic pianos. Creating a Grand Piano Multisample that retains the quality of a modern workstation would be next to impossible on the Fantom. The Korg Kronos SGX2 piano engine is made up of non-looping samples from every note, with 12-velocity layers all meticulously crossfaded on top of one another so that you cannot detect the velocity changes while playing. The result is pianos that can be 9GB in size. The Montage also has non-looping samples on their premium pianos taking up 4 parts and several elements (oscillators) and a proprietary compression algorithm to retain quality while reducing its size. The Roland Fantom's sampler is not even feature rich enough to recreate multisamples of that quality. Not to mention, we only have 2GB of total memory to work with. As far as backing tracks go you can use the sampler to play them. However, when you change scenes, the pads don't follow suit. So if you have a 10 song live set all containing backing tracks using the pads becomes fairly impractical, and will lack the flexibility of the built-in sequencer (i,e launching clips or entire rows of clips like Ableton Live). The polyphony limitations are a dealbreaker for me because of how I use the Fantom. But for many, this will cause them to research other options, especially considering the Fantom cost more than its competition at the moment.
@@darrickkeels6387 Wow, playing something that sounds like a 9GB non-looped piano within a 10-song live set with sequencing is challenging for Fantom's 2GB RAM and how it manages polyphony! But maybe we could try the following. (1) The piano challenge could be addressed by using Fantom's V-piano with unlimited polyphony and independent engine so it should not interfere with the polyphony of other things. (2) The 10-song live set with sequencing will take a bit more work. You could sample each sequenced track, or set of tracks, into Fantom's keys (not pads). Each key sample can be up to 2.75 minutes long, all key sample tracks can be triggered by sequences, and each set of sequences (I think up to a max of 128 audio track samples) can be controlled by your pads like Ableton Live. You could categorize your KEY samples as DRUMS for extended live mix control over your individual tracks, such as individual panning, volume, EQ, compression, MFX, etc. (e.g. you could remix, mashup, or crossfade from one song to another non-stop). And each of your 10 scenes can instantly switch between the sets of key-sampled instruments and their corresponding sequences. In theory.
Indeed, those are good workarounds. But they are workarounds. One of the main features of the Fantom is "Scene Remain." Once you use the V-Piano sound engine you cannot utilize scene remain. There are a fair amount of people that prefer the sound of the SuperNatural Pianos to the V-Piano. On a Yamaha or Korg Kronos/Nautilus, you can use any piano and not struggle as much, especially on the Natutilus or Kronos because the polyphony is dynamically allocated between sound engines. That architecture was on the Kronos in 2011. But if we are really being picky, it was on the Korg Oasys in 2005. Though the Montage is not as good as Korg's offerings in the polyphony department, it does a better overall job in handling polyphony than the Fantom. And that launched over 3 years before the Fantom and it isn't even called a "workstation" by Yamaha. So while workarounds may certainly work (I believe in doing whatever you have to do to make technology work for you, so I am not diminishing your genius well thought out methods) it can be a tough way for many musicians to work. Giving up valuable keys so that you can launch samples because the actual sampler is not well implemented into the overall system. Stuck using one particular set of pianos because the polyphony on the latest acoustic piano samples aren't up to the task. Giving up scene remain. No pianos on the competition force you to give up their version of the equivalent feature. If a person already owns a Fantom, by all means, learn to make it work. But if a person is making a buying decision, they should consider what they need from the keyboard and decide if the Fantom's shortcomings are deal-breakers. They aren't for me. But everyone's situation is different. I know people will read the specs on a Fantom (up to 256-voices) and assume the polyphony performs as well or better than older keyboards. This, however, is not the case. And they will have to decide if putting in hours of additional time to "make it work" is worth it to them.
I love my F6 but your Point is loud, clear and absolutely right. This is not acceptable in any way at that price point! Dont care about your structure or whatever. Dishing out that much money i want non frustrating user experience!
Have you tried the latest firmware update? They claim they've improved it.
The polyphony architecture has remained unchanged. There were bug fixes and aftertouch improvements.
Great video. I have a fantom and Kronos x and it’s like night and day in regards to layering. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that even my FA provides better layering sonic performance than my fantom smh
That's not much of a limb. The FA is a better board.
Nobody thinks Fantom is a ''better board''. You'd have to be an idiot to even own one.
yup :( POLYPHONY PROBLEM! HOPE THEY CAN DO SOME UPGRADE ON THAT
hello sir why not talk about updates. thank you.
I realize my Montage doesn't look as pretty and doesn't have a more modern UI like the Fantom has, but I've yet to hit the polyphony wall even with all 16 PARTs/Voices playing at once. Especially pianos. I can hold the sustain pedal down for very long periods of time and never have a note drop. The Fantom wasn't an option when I bought the Montage, but had it been, for me piano sounds and polyphony were/are my 2 main criteria, so I would have still went with the Montage. The Kronos was the other competing option at the time, but because it has lowest common denominator polyphony when utilizing multiple engines, that was the deciding factor to go with the Montage. I realize people have different criteria then me, and if polyphony &/or pianos are not as important & sequencing on the synth itself without any computer DAW, then the Fantom could be the better choice for some.
This coming October 2023, Yamaha are releasing a new Montage replacement synth and most people are thinking it will have a 3rd sound engine that is modeling synthesis based (AN-X). They must have added new improved tone generator processors on the board, because from what Paul from the Sand, Software & Sound site has said, the current SWP70's would be somewhat limited in polyphony for a modeling engine. What most people expect is that Yamaha will increase the current polyphony on the new Montage replacement to 1.5 to 2 times what it currently is, and the current polyphony is already awesome. How much polyphony the AN-X engine will have will be quite interesting to find out..!?
If money was no object, I would likely buy a Fantom as a secondary synth, especially for more analog/digital synth sounds, although there is no sound on any synth out there that I can't emulate as good or better on the Montage. I realize the Montage gets better reviews on the sample based acoustic type sounds, but I've found it can also do anything on the more synthy type sounds as well. In some ways better sounding when I layer the sample based engine with the FM-X (DX7) engine sounds together... I would still use the Montage to do all sequencing over the Fantom if I had one, because I am so used to DAW based sequencing (using Pro Tools), which I find so efficient and awesome, that I couldn't go to sequencing on a keyboard itself with a small screen, more limitations, less efficiency and less precision. But that's just my preference in workflow and how I'm setup.
I’ve been a Roland user since JV1000 days back on the late 90’s my father had the JV90 when I would play big chords as kid I didn’t experience that!!! But they have always had polyphony issue!!! I wonder if they are working on an update moving forward!!! This is still going to be my work horse!!!
It certainly is my workhorse even with its shortcomings.
I wonder if it would help to use a pedal; Kawai has some well-made ones.
I highly doubt a different pedal will make a difference.
hm, had mine 1/2 a year and was lucky to be able to return it vs a 30% discount. The sounds appear just mediocre to me, fixation to Ableton is no criteria to me…aftertouch needs too much force…and no sampling anymore….it was quite an experience :) Thank you for the video and all the best!
What about the Fantom 0 series!?
Even worse! Plus the expansions (Juno, Jupiter, JX8P etc) aren’t free for the 0 series. Also I believe the 0 only uses the zen core engines and even the supernatural sounds are recreated using zen core, which imo isn’t great.
In all honesty. You'd be better with either the Flagship (Vpiano helps with Poly) or an older board. The 0 series is best in the x6 format used in conjunction with other gear. A little like Modx is used by many. I would say the one to really avoid would be 08.
Fantom 0 = DoA
This depends on your playing style and the types of things you are trying to play. I have got an older Fantom X6 here in my studio on loan and even with its 128 voice polyphony I don't come anywhere near voices dropping out. It has a lot to do with what and how you are playing it. Even with synths in my studio that are 24 voice polyphony I never get voices dropping out either. Not saying this does not happen but it wont happen with everyone. The more sparse and the less you play means this will happen much less likely. Also it's good to edit the release times a little too here. If you do want to play a fast complex line, then edit the release segments so the notes don't hang on for so long. The end result will be a clearer expression of your idea. The big thing for me is the sound of Fantom and it has a lovely very individual sonic signature sound. It can sound incredibly analog too when it is emulating older Boland synths especially. There are some very unique patches in Fantom too.
@@steveglossop I am wondering then about the sound. I have got an older X6 in my studio temporarily and it sounds really great here. Is it possible the sampler part of the Fantom X6 was different in that earlier model.
I have a RD-2000 and a FA08. When I layer sounds in this manner and play I do not get voices dropping out. It is only on the new Zencore and SuperNatural pianos that I have such issues. I don’t have an issue on any of my other keyboards either. Nord Stage 3, Korg Kronos, Yamaha Montage, MODX, MPC Key 61 etc. The Fantoms are the only keyboards that struggle. The filters use up polyphony, the SuperNatural pianos are also using up processing power via polyphony, moreso than on other Roland gear. The polyphony architecture is just not very good .
The issue is with the Zencore allocation. No doubt about it.
@@darrickkeels6387 the problem is just that Roland uses massively underpowered hardware in all their current synthesizers. Especially but not only ZenCore based ones. 4 voice polyphony on most of the Boutique series is a joke as well.
For a keyboard as expensive as the Fantom and with Roland claiming on its webpage that you don’t need to worry about polyphony it is really a joke.
Darrick, how about a studio tour update.
Hmm...I may have to do that!
@@darrickkeels6387 That would be great.
Thanks for another good one... dont worry, you will always use hardware... you'll need something to run your software on ;) You are too nice to Roland... no update in a year on the flagship... my fantom 8 is a paperweight until they get their sampling right....
Why did you change from the kronos
I changed because the user interface is a lot better. I feel like its ability to work as a master controller that handles both internal and external sound seamlessly is also a major benefit. Having an audio interface that can send out 16 stereo channels simultaneously to a DAW versus two on the Kronos is key as well. I can plug in a vocal microphone into my Fantom and power it with 48V phantom power when I am recording outside of my studio. The Kronos doesn't have this capability. Also the DAW integration with Logic, Mainstage and Ableton is also a plus considering those are programs I use extensively. Not only does the Kronos have no such DAW integration, I sometimes have driver issues and weird problems that arise simply due to the age of the Kronos when connecting it to modern computers. There are always workarounds and the issues can be fixed but it breaks my workflow when I have to go into tech mode. In short, I feel the Kronos is a more powerful "standalone" unit. The sequencer, sampler, and polyphony architecture is more powerful than what the Fantom has to offer. But honestly, I don't use my keyboards as standalone or all-in-one systems anymore. They are now used as a part of an entire system. The Fantom just does a better job at that.
Great reflection Darrick and thanks for the advice. If you mention this at Roland forums they just say well, you knew what you were buying so its your fault. Such a closed minded community. This board is designed for 80's cover versions that are barely better than a karaoke machine. The potential is there so its just frustrating. Over a year now for any updates, just not good enough.
Yeah, some of the forums are a bit harsh on people who offer any kind of critique. I was called a "Korg Fanboy" and a "Roland Hater." Yet I own more Roland gear than Korg. I have no brand loyalties lol!
Aren't the RD2000 and Fantom 8 supposed to have the same PHA 50 action? And same sound engines so the same polyphony restrictions should be in the RD2000? Are there differences in the same action across different keyboards? Also re the sampler and sequencer: The Fantom is not technically a workstation - it's a synth. Now the Kronos is not being made you need a Kurzweil K2700 if you want a workstation.
The RD-2000 does have the V-Piano sound engine. But the Supernatual sound engine is different. It gives you the ability to edit a wide array of parameters that are simply not available in the Fantom. With that said overall, the Fantom is way more powerful. But that is expected, considering the RD-2000 is a stage piano. I had the RD-2000 before the Fantom. I didn't want to buy a 61-pound Fantom 8 lol! The new Supernatural Acoustic Pianos in the Fantom are not available for the RD-2000, so I am not really able to do a test. The Fantom is a workstation though. I sent Roland an email and asked. Their response was "Yes it is a workstation. That is why it is under the Performance/Workstation" category on the website." Also the manual in small writing in a few places says, "Fantom Music Workstation." I feel it is quite anemic as a workstation though. But Roland has told me personally that they consider it one.
You are 💯 % Right!!! Almost $4k for the worst polyphony 😢. I rather get a Nord stage 4! Even if I lose the DAW integration!
The trick is to use the V-Piano for any piano sounds because it does not use any of the 256 polyphony. The V-Piano has its own voice card. The one issue with the V-Piano is it does not hold notes when you switch scenes.
Yes I showed that in the video when going over workarounds. If you like the V-Piano sounds and you don’t need scene remain you are good to go. Of course you will still run into an issue with the SuperNatural Acoustic Strings lol! But could always use the less expressive and less realistic older Zencore samples and be fine. There are various workarounds for sure. But I think at $4000 in 2023 we should have to implement the same types of workarounds we did 25-30 years ago. More powerful internals would really solve the problem.
@@darrickkeels6387or you could record the supernatural stings and put it as a single note sample
I have had sooo many issues with the Fantom 07. I bought my first one at end of July and ended up having to return it 25 days later as it wouldn't even turn on. Then I got a replacement and have had it for 2 weeks and having problems again. Back it goes! I will NOT be getting another one that's for sure. These things cost way too much to have these types of issues.
Hmm…mine never had an issue.
If you are 2 girls mama, make sure your girls aren’t messing with the synths by spilling liquids, etc.
I definitely agree with you. There should be no polyphony issue in 2019+ from a keyboard that cost 3.6K+
I also hate that I have to buy a flag ship just to get aftertouch. When I bought my 1st keyboard in 98. KORG N5EX, it had aftertouch, and it was 3 tiers down from the flag ship. "Trinity" or triton.
Yes my Alesis QS7 had aftertouch and it was by no means on the Triton's level. Lol!
And the aftertouch on the Fantom 6 is very poor - has low sensitivity and is variable across the keyboard.
That's a disgrace. Charging today's prices for yesterday's technology. I've heard $99 home keyboards with better polyphony handling.
A second hand tablet for 100-200 Euro's has more Polyphony power than a 4 GRAND workstation. Let that sink in for a while.
I have an FA-06, and for a while now I've been saving up for a fantom-07 as an upgrade, now I have the funds, but I've decided against it based on this issue. I really hate having to use a PC for part of my sound (I want it all to be self-contained), but I guess that's really the only good option for us in 2023. It's a real shame. Thanks for talking about this, I know it's hard to speak the truth when the truth is negative.
i AGREE WITH YOU 100%
Yeap ! I've heard of 128 Polyphony since ages ago but I didn't even know the usufulness of it ! - I just purchased a Fantom 7 for $3,800 and to learn that even 3 sounds layering has limitations is riduculous but unfortunately all big brand names all have 128 Polyphony.
The architecture of how voices are used is more important than the number. The Korg Nautilus is able to dynamically allocate voices between sound engines. It's not a simple 128-voice polyphony. The Kurzweil K2700 does the same thing.
the other thing that i dont understand , its why we dont have a output for a screen on synth in 2023..
.if i could have a big screen on my workstation or on my mpc live i will be happy..
.the roland jupiter are not better than the fantom? ..
.15 years ago i buy the fantom xa and the keys was terrible but i am really use to the roland structure because i have pass on the mc-303, 505, 808,909 , jv 1080 ,fantom, and few other and i have do the same with the yamaha stuff with the motif and sampler A series..
.after i ll start the korg stuff .triton extreme , korg m-3 ( i still have one with the 88 notes keyborads ) , and the kronos who was amazing.
.i just come to buy an akai mpc live and its sound great and now with a real screen its better to work than before with the old mpc series
.but the KRONOS. was very hot ,complicated but its sound great ...
Would give this two thumbs up if I could. So true. The word polyphony has been the music industries word to try and sound big but remain confusing to truly understand. The motivation is financial of course. It's essentially synth inflation. I get that synth manufacturers want to maintain a certain profit margin, but for crying out loud, at least offer a PRO version that has triple the polyphony at a higher cost.
Agreed. It can truly be a crippling experience. A bottleneck in power.
unlimited piano polyphony for V-Piano. SN pianos have 54 note polyphony. If your stacking 3 pianos.... then your down to 18 notes. Just dont stack pianos or use the F series and the V-Pianos (I use the RD2000 for the V-Piano though). If your layering a piano wiht a pad (or 2) it depends on the pad you using and how that tone is designed. You CAN have one pad that only gives 14 notes of polyphony (depending on how many partials and which fitlters you use). Layer one of those pads with a piano and your down to about 9 notes of polyphony. You CAN set your voice reserve so the pads dont eat up the poly and the piano has more notes to use (as you mention - but its the pad you should limit not the piano). Its a fluid system - uit allows great creativity and for you toi use the power to design really complex patches....at the cost of polyphony. it does also mean that you cant just put any sounds together and expect masses of polyphpny. It does give you that control, BUT I do understand the problems for some players. Sometimes its not uderstanding how it works and/or not having it set up right - somethimes its just trying to put more together than the board will support. In your example you have 2 SN pianos, whihc takes you polyphony down to 27 notes - then you have a pad as well. That pad is light use - its twin partials with 12db digital filters used (the least intensive). That sound gives 108 notes of polyphony on its own. Of course the pad is also has a reasonably slow amp filter release, so if your playing fast piano - your also playing EVERY one of those notes on the pad. Its going to eat polyphony very quickly....and your down to somewhere around 20 notes combining the 3 sounds even if the pad had 0 release. The best mitigation would be to use voice reserve to limit the notes the pad can use, and only using one of the SM pianos. that would help a LOT right off the bat. AS I say though, while Ive never run out of polyphoony (as I say though I use my RD for all pianos, and I share synth sounds with a couple of dedicated synths too - a virus and a Prophet 6) I get why some might, especially if your using the 16 part sequencer. Its something Roland have been aware of from the early days of the release - and have said they are working on ways to streamline the use, and/or provide further users option to help - so hopefully there will be a little something there in the future.. Using a zencore (rather than SN) piano if you dont have the V-Pianos also gives more polyphony than the SN sounds- so you could get more notes using those. Its all choice ultimately. **EDIT*** Oh I should say - the zencore pianos while using 4 partiuals, they are 4 velocity layers. They only use a single partial at any time, and a 12db digital filter - so the Zencore Pianos (even with seamless switching on) gives you 216 notes of polyophony.... so one of those, and the pad and you should be good - even without changing the pads amp decay or setting specifgic voice reserves - for the 88 notes you need for piano playing. To sum up the last bit...for SOLO sounds (obviously you need more than the max 88 notes you can play if your layering) Zencore Pianos, 216 note polyphony, V-Piano sounds unlimited and DOESNT affect the polyphony of the other sounds, Supernatural Pianos, 54 note polyphony. Basically if your layering DONT use SN pianos and yoru good.
Hey Antony! Always appreciate your insight. And maybe people will read you comment and make a buying decision. I do want to say that I did not layer two SN pianos. There is only one in the scene. The RD-1000 sound is a Zencore sound. The pad is pretty basic as well. If you really listen you can hear the pad sustaining when the piano cuts out sometimes. So it isn't a VA Pad using up a ton of voices. It's an old pad that has been around forever. 54 voice polyphony is not really enough for many piano players and I find that unacceptable at $4000. If they put in an ARM processor like one can find in an iPad or Samsung tablet all of the polyphony issues would go away. Or something equivalent to an intel i7 or i9 chip. There would be no need to advise people to simply not layer their piano sounds or not use the sounds they really want to use. I personally do not like the idea that it is the musician's fault for picking the wrong sounds or not understanding the instrument. In my Korg Kronos I can layer any Acoustic Piano, EP and Pad and not have these issues. I can do the same with my iPad and certainly my computers. The 4 BMC chips were already dated upon launch. I could understand if I was playing 14 patches at once or had I designed a patch emulating a classic analog synth with CPU intensive filters. That was not the case here. And I feel the Fantom is simply underpowered for the price.
@@darrickkeels6387 Got you on the 2nd piano part - Od missed it was zencore. So yes, your using 3 partials worth of zencore 12db filter, plus a supernatural piano. Thats going to limit you to around 40 notes of polyphony (rough calculation). That pad is a killer because of its envelope decay being slow. Not a problem for slow passages, but when you play fast piano - its eating notes up. RE the pianos, the V-Piano is what fantom was built to use primarily for "piano playing" - ie proper piano technique. Its why it has its own chip and dedicated unlimited polyphony. The Zencore Pianos have good polyphony. Remember the Supernatural ones were added in a FW at the request of the user base NOT on the original release. Im guessing the polyphony issue of SN sounds is why Roland didnt include them origonally.... BUT yes, if you have the Fantom 0 series without the V-Piano, or just prefer the Supernatural ones... then I toitally agree, 64 notes isnt enough for a piano player (its fine usually for a more generic keys/synth player - if that makes sense). Of course only 2 of the BCM chips are currently in use. Im assuming there is no way to "share" polyphony between the two - but not sure why they cant find a way to open one up as a duplicate of the main chip (with the second being the V-Piano) where every second zone runs on the alternate chip (so zones 1/3/5/7/9 use chip 1 and zones 2/4/6/8/10 etc use chip 2). They still have one spare for future use. It may be technically challanging of course depending ont eh signal flow and internal arcitecture. We do know there aware of the limitations people are finding though - and are trying to find a way to streamline performance and improve polyphony in those areas. Whether its underpowered? It wasnt at release (as the models and the supernatural sounds wernt onboard at that point). Maybe adding those at user request when they maybe knew it would limit polyphony was the problem? If SN pianos (or sounds at all) hadnt been added, we would see far less issues within the user base. Adding MORE SN sounds from the integra (particularly guitars and world instruments) is the top requested (in a recent Poll for Roland) thing to add to Fantom as well.... if they DO that, they need to find a way to open a 2nd chip to share the load.
I believe I have a fairly good idea as to why it doesn't work, albeit probably not as good as you lol! My opinion is that it should work, especially for the amount it cost. There are processors out there that are capable of handling everything Roland throws at them. But they will have to put the work in to get it done.
The modx is even worse. Any issues with the Kronos?
Not really, MODX's PCM situation is 'slightly' better than FANTOM's. Kronos's polyphony allocation is amazing. But with VA engines being stacked more than 3 times, you may run into some problems.