I'm using the Tessie app (which is excellent) and that shows that my 2022 Model Y RWD LFP with 15,500 miles is at 2.5% degradation. It plots a dot of this on a graph every time you add more than 5 kWh and I can clearly see mine leveling out after the initial dip that we all know happens early on. I mostly charge at home at 7kW usually once its down to around 60% and always back up to 100%, but I've also used superchargers and I've had the battery right down to 3% a couple of times, so its fairly varied use. Lots of miles at 65 on motorways too. I genuinely think you don't have to worry about it. Just plug it in when you need to, take it to 100% once a week as advised, and just enjoy the car and try to forget about it :)
Please note that NOT charging to 100% can prevent the BMS from properly balancing the cells, in addition to losing track of the state of charge (SOC). If the BMS cannot properly balance the cells, you will actually put MORE wear on a subset of cells rather than less because a subset of cells will hit the cell voltage cap regularly. When you charge to 100% and the BMS is able to keep the cells in balance, then NO cells will hit the cell voltage cap. So you want to charge to 100% at least every once in a while. If you are truly worried about voltage stress, all you need to do is drive a little (like 1% of the battery capacity's worth) after fully charging, before parking the vehicle. -- At a cell level what is happening is that normal charging will take an individual cell to roughly 3.55V/cell. The BMS cell limit is typically 3.65V/cell (so normal charging, if the cells are balanced, does not reach the cell limit). The absolute limit for LFP is typically around 4.2V and electrolyte breakdown starts at 4.6V. When cells are out of balance, some cells will be low and some cells will be high, meaning that at full charge for the pack, some cells will actually get far closer to the 3.65V BMS limit, putting more stress on them. With LFP, unlike NMC or NCA, the voltage actually relaxes after charging is complete while still maintaining a 99%+ state of charge. The "float" level for LFP is 3.35V to 3.375V/cell... you can see immediately that the float is substantially lower than the charging target. This is why driving a little after fully charging a LFP pack is a good idea. It will at least get the cells down to the float voltage, vastly reducing voltage stress on the LFP cells even though the state of charge is still 99%+. So... keep charging to 100% every once in a while. (This information applies to LFP only. NMC chemistries behave differently). -Matt
I've heard that after charging to 100% you also need to discharge to a low level without in-between recharging to fully balance the cells. Is it true? For NMC, charging at 25% SOH to 75% seems optimal for minimal degradation and practical everyday usage (or 30% to 70%, but there is no real gain in narrowing that window further).
The thing about battery degradation that is never mentioned is that the performance of the car doesn't change at all. It will still accelerate exactly as it has always done and the full power remains. The only thing that changes is the total available range. And as nobody ever runs their EV down to zero, and usually not below 20%, then losing a few miles makes no difference to their journeys. They will always fill up well before it becomes a problem. And there are many early warning dash notices to react to. Much like petrol car drivers do, as it happens.
I guess with an EV you are putting less in and getting less out where as with an ICE car you put more in because you're getting less out as the engine and the others components wear
The main reason for the recommendation to charge to 100% at least once a week is about battery calibration, so the car’s system knows where the full capacity is, otherwise it cannot calculate range and capacity accurately when you are out and about and heading to your next charge point. Apparently this is a quirk of LFP batteries, unlike the NMC batteries.
LFP batteries have a flat voltage / charge curve so voltage is a minimal use in determining battery capacity. The best method of determining capacity is via a calibration from below 10% up to 100% (in other words, from the lowest voltage to the highest extreme). The battery management system then knows how to capacity limits of the battery and can track energy into and out of the battery and can accurately predict range and battery capacity.
Ours is a Atto3 using a 126s1p 400V LFP blade battery. So far (25,000km and eighteen months on) no discernable range drop at all. We always drive in eco mode, we mostly charge to 100% once per week on AC (slow) charging. On those odd occasions we use fast charging we nearly always stop the charge at 85%, as soon as roll back commences.
Model y rwd lfp catl 20months old : 2,6% degradation after 28000miles (45000km). Charged to 100% twice a week, but usually drives after it's been charged. Probably hasn't been supercharged more than 20 times. It's at 13,7kwh/100km for all these miles.
Hey folks, I have 2024 model Y RWD LFP that covered 8000 miles to date. I charge to 100 percent twice a week and run down low, between 20 -5 percent every time. Seen a fair amount of towing and fast charging too. No battery degradation to report. My Vauxhall Corsa-e on the other hands is down 5 percent degradation after 28000 miles. Seems to have settled there for nearly a year. I do think the LFP benefits from full cycles. Chargers to 100 percent and run it low.
Thanks for the video---i havent seen much online about the LFPs so its very useful. I have a 22 M3 RWD in Australia (china made). Started out reporting 442km (274.6km) and now reports 415km (257 miles) after 2.25 yrs and 39,000km (24kmiles), so a 6% degradation (if it is not adjusting for my driving habits). I have been charging to 100% regularly as recommended . I am now getting a 1km drop every 1500-2000km or so. I did notice that when i went on a road trip it lasted a lot longer (>3000km) before a range drop. I have noticed that a range decline often occurs after i charge to near 100% (when i have to stop the charging early) and then the next time i charge to 100%.
Samd type and agr of car. Mine is showing exactly the same amount of degradation and I'm not worried. Interestingly I recently ran it to about 13 miles of range left and when I charged it to 100% I actually got about 4 four more additional miles. I expect this is down to BMS calibration
According to the value read through my MG4’s OBD2 port, my CATL LFP battery is just under 3% degradation. MG programmed the BMS to add a daily 0.01% degradation in the first year since the battery pack was manufactured, to account for the LFP’s calendar aging. LFP degradation is then computed when doing a 5% to 100% charge. So the number fluctuates over time but the speed at which the battery degrades is less and less over time. MG only guarantees 70% capacity after 7years.
I'm in a BYD Seal, 25K on the clock, 6 months old. Charging mostly at home, once a week to 100%. Mostly highway traffic. Didn't notice any significant loss of the range. The same LFP battery. 82 kWh capacity. Wish, it could go like that forever. Greetings. Adam from Adelaide. South Australia.
My car is 31 months old (Sep-21) and has gone from 263 to 249 miles @ 100%. I'm following a car of the same age on TeslaFi that has now travelled 190,000 miles and has the same level of degradation as mine. My conclusion is that LFP batteries degrade with time rather than miles travelled. I only charge to 100% once per week and 90% if a charge is needed in between.
I have a Tesla Y LFP, RWD 2022/november, 15,500 miles. Battery degradation is 2.39%. I almost always charge up to 100%, I start charging when I have 30-60% of battery which is 2-3 times a wek. if I just fill up a few times and it's not 100% charged, the next 100% charge it shows me 1-4 miles less range, but if then 2-3x in a short period of time I charge up to 100% it goes back to the previous range. In my opinion, these are not real losses, but losses in the inaccuracy of readings due to low battery voltages.
Hi Nigel, I've never checked my degradation as of yet. I've a 2019 M3LR which has currently shows just over 25,000 miles and it shows 298 miles at 100% but I know that isn't what I will get in normal driving but because of the Supercharger network for long trips I've never worried. However in the future I may get it checked but as I say I'm not concerned yet. Have a great week. Jim
I'm in Australia (Brisbane) and we experience generally warmer weather than the UK (not sure if this affects degradation that much). My 2023 MY has 17000km on it (10,500 miles) and I have 1.5% degradation according to Tessie. Someone on FB said that the average is between 1 to 2% per year for LFP batteries, but I guess it depends on how the car is used, charged, and it's environment (weather, etc.) I mainly charge at home on a 4.7kW (20A) wall charger, and to 100% as often as possible.
Good to know, I'm looking at getting a Y but can't decide if i get the LFP or longer range NMC chemistry. I've got a LFP MG4 with 10k miles on it and in the summer it now reports more miles on a full charge than it did when it was new but winter it will be totally different, like you i think these LFP battries will out last me or at least untill I'm board of driving
I have a Y RWD with LFP and it is fine for the mileage pattern I do. I did a 220 mile round trip the other day mostly dual carriageway and motorway, and I had to charge about 15 miles from home on 5% battery. This made the real range at mostly 70mph about 220 miles, I wasn’t keen on seeing if I could make it home! Of course the longer range Y will do 0-60 in about 4.4 seconds, whereas it takes the RWD will only do it in 6.6 second 😂😂😂
Are you confusing degradation and driving efficiency? To gauge the degradation you need to see what voltage each cell holds. If you don’t drive as economically as Tesla estimates most people will the car will alter the range shown accordingly, nothing to do with the state of degradation. (You could very well have battery degradation, it’s just the method you are using won’t tell you).
No, LFP doesn't work this way. With LFP, aging does not effect cell voltages at all, it just effects how many amp-hours you can stuff into them. A LFP pack, no matter how old, will run the same voltage ranges as it did when it was brand new. -Matt
Thanks for the video. My car states that I should charge to 100% once a week. They have removed the tire ‘ at least’ from the wording for my car. I have an LFP Battery in my model Y 2023 (China manufactured car) in Australia. I was charging daily to 100% due to my work commute about 150km. I’ve lost 1.6% at 26000km. 435km to 428km in 7 months . I’m now charging to70-80% as I mentioned to one on the commenters. Hopefully it slows the degradation.
Got a 2023 model 3 RWD LFP at 17k miles only lost 4% degradation.. been charging at home 220v 18amp on average and 100% everyday. I go down to 80% after daily usage then recharge again.. heck I even left it at 100% for a 2 week trip. Never had to use a supercharger
Currently own 2021 (Nov) M3LR (77.8 kWh NMC 🔋 ) and 2023 (Sept) MYLR (78.5 kWh NMC 🔋). Both Shanghai built with Acceleration Boost. Sydney Australia 🇦🇺. Monitor both cars with Tessie App. M3LR has 17,069km with 96.9% (3.1% loss after 58.4 charge cycles); current max range 551km. MYLR has 4,822km with 99.8% (0.2% loss after 11.5 charge cycles); current max range 525km. Both cars daily limit set to 80%. If travelling will 100% charge. Longest trips: M3LR (Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney); MYLR (Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney). Can comfortably travel for 4-hours non-stop at motorway speeds (110kph) before supercharging. Minor range degradation should not effect real world usage ⚡️ Previous cars BMW M2 and BMW X3 30d. Similar travel times as we regularly stopped.
Ive used similar lifepo4 cells in my rc models, Very mixed results as far as degredation goes but i really abused them by charging in 10 mins multiple times over in a session where they are depleted in around 5 mins. But i liked the safety aspect of them and even after around 1000 cycles abuse they still had a good 60% to 80% ( some still over 90% ) capacity and still happily giving plenty of power. I want a ev but only with the lfp battery, not that happy with the normal ones with the fire risk however small it might be.
Are you sure you're measuring % degradation by measuring miles? There is only one variable in SOH measurement and that is battery health. Range has many variables. Not least the temperature of the battery and historic driving style.
Hi Nigel, I have a 2021 Model 3 SR+ with 55kWh CATL LFP Battery, I have 45k km (28k miles) in the car and I have the exact same degradation like you from 423km (263miles) to 400km (248miles) by now. I also read it somewhere that FIRST we will notice battery degradation caused by aging not charging. And I think the numbers prove this theory since we have the same models but aboslutely have different driving and charging habbits. The range displayed in the top right corner is calulated by a 12.8kWh/100km EPA norm used by Tesla, so in theory if you do the math you can calculate the remaining capacity. Mine could be around --> 400 km (Remaining estimated range) / 100 km x 12.8kWh = ~51kWh, and if you calculate with the original range 423km it gives you the 54.1kWh capacity as brand new which is stated to be the usuable + buffer. Since the total capacity of the battery is 55.1kWh which cannot be used 100%. Also based on my calculations if you take a look at the Energy Monitor and select the projection section, you can also calculate the capacity for example a longer drive. But here you need to add the Drive + Parked percenteges and substract it form 100% and you need to calculate with this. For me this method also gives the approcimate 51kWh. So my battery is also around 51/54, 94-95% just like yours, and in theory I can still be using 51kwH for driving until the car completly shuts down. Since the EPA range displayed int the top right corner is for the 0-100% the buffer is an additional capacity that can be used after you reached 0%. Cheers, Tom
Thanks, Tom for watching and some incredible detailed information I’m wondering if you work for Tesla or an EV car manufacture with lots of information on the subject It’s great to hear so much intelligent information and comments Take care
@@nigep Hi Nigel, thanks for the kind words, but I'm just an everyday owner. :) And really interested in TECH and how to figure out the degradation without a bluetooth OBD device and Scan my Tesla APP, but it seems I will need to invest in one of these devices so I can confirm or deny the theory mentioned above. Keep up the good work and enjoy driving! Cheers, Tom
I suspect the LFP degradation curve will flatten out for longer than NCM / NCA. We have 2 NCM Model 3s. One has lost 3% in 30000km and the other 7% in 40000km. The higher mileage car was charged to 100% a lot by the previous owner. LFP is a bit misunderstood. The BMS does need a charge to 100% on a regular basis but its looking like they last longer if its not every single time. Second how good the Tessie app is. The best out there
Well they are build to last the warranty period. You are not very smart if you believe the marketing number. Tesla warranty is only 80 000km for a reason. Nobody cares what will happen with the car battery after the warranty period. 70% capacity for 8 years. They calculated that you should lose around 4% capacity per year.
Thanks for the video Nigel. My M3 LFP shows 260 (down from 273) miles after 19 months and 16k miles. Thats over 4.7% degradation. However, my tessie app says 4% (57.9kwh down from 60.3). I'd rather believe tessie. I've watched the cleanerwatt channel and read comments on there and it seems there is a wide variability of degradation experienced seemingly unrelated to charging habbits, with one commenting that it could be down to luck regarding purity of chemical components of the battery - lithium etc. - and i bet theres some truth in that. I personally think I'm too hung up on the subject since in the summer, i get 280 or more mile of real range on a trip. I've never reset trip A which shows avg 220wh/mile. At 58kw the means on average, including 2 winters it's done 263 miles range. I know that's not directly related to the subject but it does put things in perspective -incredible car!!!
Thanks Nick. Yes, I agree. It’s an incredible car and you’re getting great wh/ mile Thanks for watching and commenting. Take care and enjoy your driving.
yeah i Ignore the warning on super chargers If I have to use one it will be charged to 100% :D but thats just me I am usually doing something when it happens.
I am wondering how you guys know/measure degradation. I switched my M3 LFP Tesla to % instead of miles/kms on the day 1 and never switched back - since the miles/km estimate is not correct anyways. So, I always have 100% :) Every time I am trying to find out how to measure degradation, I am surprised there is no clear straight-forward way - it's always some convoluted way with weird third-party apps
Hi, great question and thanks for watching When I first had my Tesla, it showed miles remaining not percentage and it was 263 for a standard range Now it shows 248 over two years later, so I have taken that as the degradation % Many people have told me I am wrong, but I don’t know any other way of doing it Some people use the Tesie app but I’m not convinced it’s more accurate I would’ve thought that Tesla know what they’re doing Take care
It is normal for batteries to loose a lot of range in the first year, then the degradation slows. Really you should use the battery health test mode in service mode. Also if I am not mistaken you should charge the LFP battery to 100% as much as possible at home.
My car is the same age as yours and has done 35k miles. The indicated range after a 100% charge is 248 miles. My understanding is this figure is no more than an indication and can't be used to measure battery degradation, rather like the indicated range and MPG in an ICE car. Also it adapts to your usage and the environment (climate etc.) so will vary depending on many factors.
Battery degradation is not linear, that's true. There's a sharp drop off to start with, which levels out over time, and (as far as anyone knows, because EVs just haven't been around long enough) there's no sudden drop off point. Batteries just degrade slowly and steadily, and unless you have a Nissan Leaf, with horrendous battery management, that decline should be quite gradual. Every pack is different. Some are going to be better than others. It really is the luck of the draw. LFP does like being all the way to 100%, that's for sure. There's zero reason not to do that. Right now it's still early days. When you get around 50,000 miles, you should be able to see the straightening of the line, and project that trend out into the future. If you know what range is sufficient for you, this should give you a point in time when your vehicle is no longer practical. I suspect that date is a long way off, but i'd be glad to be put right.
i use tessie app for record my degradation and for me after 15 months of ownership i am down from 440km range at 100% to 422km range at 100%, the tessie app tells me I have a degradation of 3.2% over that time. I have done 27,000 KM so far on the car.
Maybe have a read of battery university (easy to find in search). They explain that keeping the SOC around mid is actually best for longevity, with the odd 100% for balancing.
Thanks, Kev I moved away from Cornwall last October after over 40 years living there I expect I’m older and have more no claims than you that’s why I pay less Anyway, enjoy your Tesla and safe driving
I think you should charge to 100% occasionally just to rebalance the pack being unbalanced can cause the charge estimate to be off. Charging to 100% on a journey does little harm because you discharge it again fairly quickly. The damage is more to do with how long you're keeping it at 100%. So, you don't want to keep it topped up all the time.
i think i said last year you need to do a full range test, charge to 100% and then drive steadily on a non windy and dry day and run the battery flat and then fully charge the battery and see how many kwh go into the car, this is your useable capacity and then use the new useable capcity and work out the loss, see bjorn in norway for his range tests
Battery degredation is not linear,.you will lose most during the first year or so of driving, then your mileage will go up but degredation will stay the same meaning 1% is very accurate. LFP's are fine to charge to 100% NMC are not and 80% is the Goldie Locks Zone. Our E2008 is on 40k miles and 95% SOH and it's levelled out at that figure.
Recommend you to contact a real battery expert. Those EPA range values (miles and km) on our screens doesn't really indicate anything. It is a made up figure/number to calm down people with challenges with comprehension of range vs state of charge with Teslas.
I got a quote changing from a Golf and it was £38 more for a year. So less that 10% higher. Don’t believe all the haters, they just pull numbers out their backside
My EV insurance is the same as a similar Just another media anti EV story People need to shop around for a good price That’s what I do Thanks for asking & watching
i have model 3 made in China with LFP batteries got my car at end of May 2021, so far the car drove 133,000 kilometer and 100% show 397, when i just got it a 100% show 425 meaning i lost 6.6%.
@nigep BTW you should keep charging it once a week to 100% because the voltage curve in LFP batteries are almost flat and the BMS might lose track in witch state of charge the battery is and results in a less range. i saw a person in a Facebook group report he only charge to 80% and his car lost around 16% and his car is 6 months younger than mine.
Just for comparison with a "high degredation" EV with no battery temperature management, my 2018 LEAF has 12.3% degradation after 53k miles and 6 years. That's 1% per 4300 miles measured linearly as an average. I'm sure it's still fine to charge to 100% on AC with the LFP battery on your Tesla. Charging to 100% on a supercharger is probably not a good idea for practical reasons though? Much better to charge to 80% or until the charge power drops significantly, then move on.
Hello from Portugal. I have a Tesla Y with LFP batterie with 63.000 kms. When new it marks on 418 kms now 407kms. But... and that is a big but.... when i charge it, it charges the same kws. You should try take it to 5 or 10% and see how many kws it charges to 100%. Considering that the batterie size is 60kw, and full, it only charges 58kws. Everybody knows the car will never make 400kms in normal conditions, so what says the computer it doesn't matter. I go from Lisbon to Merida supercharger in Spain with one charge only, and iI reach there with the same batterie percentage than when it was new.
Hello thanks for watching and commenting very interesting I had a great trip to Portugal last year and drove down from Santander to The Algarve and had a great time Take care
Olá Miguel. O meu é igual, de Novembro de 2022, com 45000km e tb está com 407km atualmente. Te ho curiosidade é em relação aos que estão a sair da fábrica da Alemanha com as baterias blade. Já li nuns comentários que têm degradação mais depressa que as Catl...
Hi my model Y RWD 2023 is at 1.6%. I think I made an error in charging to 100% based on your loss.. I’ve done 26000km so far in 7 months. I started out at 435km now I’m at 428. I’ve now started charging to 70-80% daily and charging to 100% once a week which is what my recommendation is in the car when I move the charge slider from 100%. Hopefully my degradation starts to plateau out. To get to your level by 87000km
I'm using the Tessie app (which is excellent) and that shows that my 2022 Model Y RWD LFP with 15,500 miles is at 2.5% degradation. It plots a dot of this on a graph every time you add more than 5 kWh and I can clearly see mine leveling out after the initial dip that we all know happens early on. I mostly charge at home at 7kW usually once its down to around 60% and always back up to 100%, but I've also used superchargers and I've had the battery right down to 3% a couple of times, so its fairly varied use. Lots of miles at 65 on motorways too. I genuinely think you don't have to worry about it. Just plug it in when you need to, take it to 100% once a week as advised, and just enjoy the car and try to forget about it :)
That’s great, thanks for all the information
I will look into that app
Take care and thanks for watching & commenting
Please note that NOT charging to 100% can prevent the BMS from properly balancing the cells, in addition to losing track of the state of charge (SOC). If the BMS cannot properly balance the cells, you will actually put MORE wear on a subset of cells rather than less because a subset of cells will hit the cell voltage cap regularly. When you charge to 100% and the BMS is able to keep the cells in balance, then NO cells will hit the cell voltage cap.
So you want to charge to 100% at least every once in a while. If you are truly worried about voltage stress, all you need to do is drive a little (like 1% of the battery capacity's worth) after fully charging, before parking the vehicle.
--
At a cell level what is happening is that normal charging will take an individual cell to roughly 3.55V/cell. The BMS cell limit is typically 3.65V/cell (so normal charging, if the cells are balanced, does not reach the cell limit). The absolute limit for LFP is typically around 4.2V and electrolyte breakdown starts at 4.6V.
When cells are out of balance, some cells will be low and some cells will be high, meaning that at full charge for the pack, some cells will actually get far closer to the 3.65V BMS limit, putting more stress on them.
With LFP, unlike NMC or NCA, the voltage actually relaxes after charging is complete while still maintaining a 99%+ state of charge. The "float" level for LFP is 3.35V to 3.375V/cell... you can see immediately that the float is substantially lower than the charging target.
This is why driving a little after fully charging a LFP pack is a good idea. It will at least get the cells down to the float voltage, vastly reducing voltage stress on the LFP cells even though the state of charge is still 99%+.
So... keep charging to 100% every once in a while.
(This information applies to LFP only. NMC chemistries behave differently).
-Matt
Thanks Matt for lots of detailed information
Take care and thanks for watching
Thanks. I have been 100%’ing once a month with just 4-6 mid-range (30~80%) charges in between. (I don’t drive much!).
@@worldtrav72 once a month should be enough, slow charging of course, not fast charging, when going to 100%.
Good info thanks! 😊
I've heard that after charging to 100% you also need to discharge to a low level without in-between recharging to fully balance the cells. Is it true?
For NMC, charging at 25% SOH to 75% seems optimal for minimal degradation and practical everyday usage (or 30% to 70%, but there is no real gain in narrowing that window further).
The thing about battery degradation that is never mentioned is that the performance of the car doesn't change at all. It will still accelerate exactly as it has always done and the full power remains. The only thing that changes is the total available range. And as nobody ever runs their EV down to zero, and usually not below 20%, then losing a few miles makes no difference to their journeys. They will always fill up well before it becomes a problem. And there are many early warning dash notices to react to. Much like petrol car drivers do, as it happens.
I guess with an EV you are putting less in and getting less out where as with an ICE car you put more in because you're getting less out as the engine and the others components wear
Good point, thanks for sharing
The main reason for the recommendation to charge to 100% at least once a week is about battery calibration, so the car’s system knows where the full capacity is, otherwise it cannot calculate range and capacity accurately when you are out and about and heading to your next charge point. Apparently this is a quirk of LFP batteries, unlike the NMC batteries.
Thanks, Tony. Great point.
LFP batteries have a flat voltage / charge curve so voltage is a minimal use in determining battery capacity. The best method of determining capacity is via a calibration from below 10% up to 100% (in other words, from the lowest voltage to the highest extreme). The battery management system then knows how to capacity limits of the battery and can track energy into and out of the battery and can accurately predict range and battery capacity.
Ours is a Atto3 using a 126s1p 400V LFP blade battery. So far (25,000km and eighteen months on) no discernable range drop at all.
We always drive in eco mode, we mostly charge to 100% once per week on AC (slow) charging. On those odd occasions we use fast charging we nearly always stop the charge at 85%, as soon as roll back commences.
Thanks Jim for watching & commenting with your information
Take care
Model y rwd lfp catl 20months old : 2,6% degradation after 28000miles (45000km). Charged to 100% twice a week, but usually drives after it's been charged. Probably hasn't been supercharged more than 20 times.
It's at 13,7kwh/100km for all these miles.
Hey folks, I have 2024 model Y RWD LFP that covered 8000 miles to date. I charge to 100 percent twice a week and run down low, between 20 -5 percent every time. Seen a fair amount of towing and fast charging too. No battery degradation to report.
My Vauxhall Corsa-e on the other hands is down 5 percent degradation after 28000 miles. Seems to have settled there for nearly a year. I do think the LFP benefits from full cycles. Chargers to 100 percent and run it low.
Thanks Jay for your information & for watching
Take care
For the first 6months my model y also did not show any degradation. After 20months it's at 2,6% degradation
20k miles and I'm down to 96.5% not concerned at all. LFP and always charge to 100% except at superchargers
That’s great, thanks for commenting and watching
Thanks for the video---i havent seen much online about the LFPs so its very useful. I have a 22 M3 RWD in Australia (china made). Started out reporting 442km (274.6km) and now reports 415km (257 miles) after 2.25 yrs and 39,000km (24kmiles), so a 6% degradation (if it is not adjusting for my driving habits).
I have been charging to 100% regularly as recommended .
I am now getting a 1km drop every 1500-2000km or so. I did notice that when i went on a road trip it lasted a lot longer (>3000km) before a range drop.
I have noticed that a range decline often occurs after i charge to near 100% (when i have to stop the charging early) and then the next time i charge to 100%.
Thanks Tim that’s very interesting
Samd type and agr of car. Mine is showing exactly the same amount of degradation and I'm not worried.
Interestingly I recently ran it to about 13 miles of range left and when I charged it to 100% I actually got about 4 four more additional miles. I expect this is down to BMS calibration
According to the value read through my MG4’s OBD2 port, my CATL LFP battery is just under 3% degradation.
MG programmed the BMS to add a daily 0.01% degradation in the first year since the battery pack was manufactured, to account for the LFP’s calendar aging.
LFP degradation is then computed when doing a 5% to 100% charge. So the number fluctuates over time but the speed at which the battery degrades is less and less over time.
MG only guarantees 70% capacity after 7years.
Thank you very much for watching and sharing
Very interesting
I'm in a BYD Seal, 25K on the clock, 6 months old. Charging mostly at home, once a week to 100%. Mostly highway traffic. Didn't notice any significant loss of the range. The same LFP battery. 82 kWh capacity. Wish, it could go like that forever. Greetings. Adam from Adelaide. South Australia.
Thanks Adam for sharing
Great to be getting lots of comments from Australia
Take care
My car is 31 months old (Sep-21) and has gone from 263 to 249 miles @ 100%. I'm following a car of the same age on TeslaFi that has now travelled 190,000 miles and has the same level of degradation as mine. My conclusion is that LFP batteries degrade with time rather than miles travelled. I only charge to 100% once per week and 90% if a charge is needed in between.
That’s a great point
Thanks for watching and commenting
Nigel, I’m new to the channel - informative video!
Thank you very much for following and for watching take care
I have a Tesla Y LFP, RWD 2022/november, 15,500 miles. Battery degradation is 2.39%. I almost always charge up to 100%, I start charging when I have 30-60% of battery which is 2-3 times a wek. if I just fill up a few times and it's not 100% charged, the next 100% charge it shows me 1-4 miles less range, but if then 2-3x in a short period of time I charge up to 100% it goes back to the previous range. In my opinion, these are not real losses, but losses in the inaccuracy of readings due to low battery voltages.
Good point thanks for watching & commenting
Hi Nigel, I've never checked my degradation as of yet. I've a 2019 M3LR which has currently shows just over 25,000 miles and it shows 298 miles at 100% but I know that isn't what I will get in normal driving but because of the Supercharger network for long trips I've never worried. However in the future I may get it checked but as I say I'm not concerned yet. Have a great week. Jim
Thanks for watching and commenting Jim
take care
I'm in Australia (Brisbane) and we experience generally warmer weather than the UK (not sure if this affects degradation that much). My 2023 MY has 17000km on it (10,500 miles) and I have 1.5% degradation according to Tessie. Someone on FB said that the average is between 1 to 2% per year for LFP batteries, but I guess it depends on how the car is used, charged, and it's environment (weather, etc.) I mainly charge at home on a 4.7kW (20A) wall charger, and to 100% as often as possible.
Thanks John for the information & watching
Always good to hear from Australia
Good to know, I'm looking at getting a Y but can't decide if i get the LFP or longer range NMC chemistry. I've got a LFP MG4 with 10k miles on it and in the summer it now reports more miles on a full charge than it did when it was new but winter it will be totally different, like you i think these LFP battries will out last me or at least untill I'm board of driving
I have a Y RWD with LFP and it is fine for the mileage pattern I do. I did a 220 mile round trip the other day mostly dual carriageway and motorway, and I had to charge about 15 miles from home on 5% battery. This made the real range at mostly 70mph about 220 miles, I wasn’t keen on seeing if I could make it home! Of course the longer range Y will do 0-60 in about 4.4 seconds, whereas it takes the RWD will only do it in 6.6 second 😂😂😂
Thanks for watching and commenting Terry
Are you confusing degradation and driving efficiency? To gauge the degradation you need to see what voltage each cell holds. If you don’t drive as economically as Tesla estimates most people will the car will alter the range shown accordingly, nothing to do with the state of degradation. (You could very well have battery degradation, it’s just the method you are using won’t tell you).
No, LFP doesn't work this way. With LFP, aging does not effect cell voltages at all, it just effects how many amp-hours you can stuff into them. A LFP pack, no matter how old, will run the same voltage ranges as it did when it was brand new.
-Matt
Thanks Doug for watching and commenting
Thanks, Matt
Thanks for the video. My car states that I should charge to 100% once a week. They have removed the tire ‘ at least’ from the wording for my car. I have an LFP Battery in my model Y 2023 (China manufactured car) in Australia. I was charging daily to 100% due to my work commute about 150km. I’ve lost 1.6% at 26000km. 435km to 428km in 7 months . I’m now charging to70-80% as I mentioned to one on the commenters. Hopefully it slows the degradation.
Thank you very much for commenting and watching
always good to hear from Australia
You can try aim for 100% 30min before leaving for work
Got a 2023 model 3 RWD LFP at 17k miles only lost 4% degradation.. been charging at home 220v 18amp on average and 100% everyday. I go down to 80% after daily usage then recharge again.. heck I even left it at 100% for a 2 week trip. Never had to use a supercharger
Thanks for the information & for watching
Currently own 2021 (Nov) M3LR (77.8 kWh NMC 🔋 ) and 2023 (Sept) MYLR (78.5 kWh NMC 🔋). Both Shanghai built with Acceleration Boost. Sydney Australia 🇦🇺. Monitor both cars with Tessie App. M3LR has 17,069km with 96.9% (3.1% loss after 58.4 charge cycles); current max range 551km.
MYLR has 4,822km with 99.8% (0.2% loss after 11.5 charge cycles); current max range 525km.
Both cars daily limit set to 80%. If travelling will 100% charge. Longest trips: M3LR (Sydney-Melbourne-Sydney); MYLR (Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney).
Can comfortably travel for 4-hours non-stop at motorway speeds (110kph) before supercharging. Minor range degradation should not effect real world usage ⚡️
Previous cars BMW M2 and BMW X3 30d. Similar travel times as we regularly stopped.
Thanks for commenting and watching with lots of interesting facts
Always great to hear from Australia
About 3.5% over two years Model 3 Standard Range 2022 16000 miles. Can hit 300 real miles now in summer.
Hi, thanks for commenting and watching
Ive used similar lifepo4 cells in my rc models,
Very mixed results as far as degredation goes but i really abused them by charging in 10 mins multiple times over in a session where they are depleted in around 5 mins.
But i liked the safety aspect of them and even after around 1000 cycles abuse they still had a good 60% to 80% ( some still over 90% ) capacity and still happily giving plenty of power.
I want a ev but only with the lfp battery, not that happy with the normal ones with the fire risk however small it might be.
Thanks for sharing & watching
Take care
Are you sure you're measuring % degradation by measuring miles? There is only one variable in SOH measurement and that is battery health.
Range has many variables. Not least the temperature of the battery and historic driving style.
Thanks for the information & for watching
Take care
Hi Nigel, I have a 2021 Model 3 SR+ with 55kWh CATL LFP Battery, I have 45k km (28k miles) in the car and I have the exact same degradation like you from 423km (263miles) to 400km (248miles) by now.
I also read it somewhere that FIRST we will notice battery degradation caused by aging not charging. And I think the numbers prove this theory since we have the same models but aboslutely have different driving and charging habbits.
The range displayed in the top right corner is calulated by a 12.8kWh/100km EPA norm used by Tesla, so in theory if you do the math you can calculate the remaining capacity. Mine could be around --> 400 km (Remaining estimated range) / 100 km x 12.8kWh = ~51kWh, and if you calculate with the original range 423km it gives you the 54.1kWh capacity as brand new which is stated to be the usuable + buffer. Since the total capacity of the battery is 55.1kWh which cannot be used 100%.
Also based on my calculations if you take a look at the Energy Monitor and select the projection section, you can also calculate the capacity for example a longer drive. But here you need to add the Drive + Parked percenteges and substract it form 100% and you need to calculate with this.
For me this method also gives the approcimate 51kWh. So my battery is also around 51/54, 94-95% just like yours, and in theory I can still be using 51kwH for driving until the car completly shuts down. Since the EPA range displayed int the top right corner is for the 0-100% the buffer is an additional capacity that can be used after you reached 0%.
Cheers, Tom
Thanks, Tom for watching and some incredible detailed information
I’m wondering if you work for Tesla or an EV car manufacture with lots of information on the subject
It’s great to hear so much intelligent information and comments
Take care
@@nigep Hi Nigel, thanks for the kind words, but I'm just an everyday owner. :) And really interested in TECH and how to figure out the degradation without a bluetooth OBD device and Scan my Tesla APP, but it seems I will need to invest in one of these devices so I can confirm or deny the theory mentioned above. Keep up the good work and enjoy driving! Cheers, Tom
I suspect the LFP degradation curve will flatten out for longer than NCM / NCA.
We have 2 NCM Model 3s. One has lost 3% in 30000km and the other 7% in 40000km. The higher mileage car was charged to 100% a lot by the previous owner.
LFP is a bit misunderstood. The BMS does need a charge to 100% on a regular basis but its looking like they last longer if its not every single time.
Second how good the Tessie app is. The best out there
Thanks for watching & commenting
Well they are build to last the warranty period. You are not very smart if you believe the marketing number. Tesla warranty is only 80 000km for a reason.
Nobody cares what will happen with the car battery after the warranty period. 70% capacity for 8 years. They calculated that you should lose around 4% capacity per year.
Thank you for watching & commenting
Thanks for the video Nigel. My M3 LFP shows 260 (down from 273) miles after 19 months and 16k miles. Thats over 4.7% degradation. However, my tessie app says 4% (57.9kwh down from 60.3). I'd rather believe tessie. I've watched the cleanerwatt channel and read comments on there and it seems there is a wide variability of degradation experienced seemingly unrelated to charging habbits, with one commenting that it could be down to luck regarding purity of chemical components of the battery - lithium etc. - and i bet theres some truth in that. I personally think I'm too hung up on the subject since in the summer, i get 280 or more mile of real range on a trip. I've never reset trip A which shows avg 220wh/mile. At 58kw the means on average, including 2 winters it's done 263 miles range. I know that's not directly related to the subject but it does put things in perspective -incredible car!!!
Thanks Nick. Yes, I agree. It’s an incredible car and you’re getting great wh/ mile
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Take care and enjoy your driving.
yeah i Ignore the warning on super chargers If I have to use one it will be charged to 100% :D but thats just me I am usually doing something when it happens.
Thanks for watching and commenting
I am wondering how you guys know/measure degradation. I switched my M3 LFP Tesla to % instead of miles/kms on the day 1 and never switched back - since the miles/km estimate is not correct anyways. So, I always have 100% :)
Every time I am trying to find out how to measure degradation, I am surprised there is no clear straight-forward way - it's always some convoluted way with weird third-party apps
Hi, great question and thanks for watching
When I first had my Tesla, it showed miles remaining not percentage and it was 263 for a standard range
Now it shows 248 over two years later, so I have taken that as the degradation %
Many people have told me I am wrong, but I don’t know any other way of doing it
Some people use the Tesie app but I’m not convinced it’s more accurate
I would’ve thought that Tesla know what they’re doing
Take care
It is normal for batteries to loose a lot of range in the first year, then the degradation slows. Really you should use the battery health test mode in service mode. Also if I am not mistaken you should charge the LFP battery to 100% as much as possible at home.
That’s great advice
Thanks for sharing & watching
My car is the same age as yours and has done 35k miles. The indicated range after a 100% charge is 248 miles. My understanding is this figure is no more than an indication and can't be used to measure battery degradation, rather like the indicated range and MPG in an ICE car. Also it adapts to your usage and the environment (climate etc.) so will vary depending on many factors.
Thanks for watching & commenting Leslie
is your battery catl or byd
Not sure it’s a Tesla model 3 built in China 2021
its CATL.. BYD blade batteries came year or a year and a half later
Battery degradation is not linear, that's true.
There's a sharp drop off to start with, which levels out over time, and (as far as anyone knows, because EVs just haven't been around long enough) there's no sudden drop off point.
Batteries just degrade slowly and steadily, and unless you have a Nissan Leaf, with horrendous battery management, that decline should be quite gradual.
Every pack is different. Some are going to be better than others. It really is the luck of the draw.
LFP does like being all the way to 100%, that's for sure. There's zero reason not to do that.
Right now it's still early days.
When you get around 50,000 miles, you should be able to see the straightening of the line, and project that trend out into the future.
If you know what range is sufficient for you, this should give you a point in time when your vehicle is no longer practical.
I suspect that date is a long way off, but i'd be glad to be put right.
That’s great advice thanks
i use tessie app for record my degradation and for me after 15 months of ownership i am down from 440km range at 100% to 422km range at 100%, the tessie app tells me I have a degradation of 3.2% over that time. I have done 27,000 KM so far on the car.
Thanks for commenting and watching
I might give Tessie a try
Maybe have a read of battery university (easy to find in search). They explain that keeping the SOC around mid is actually best for longevity, with the odd 100% for balancing.
Thanks for commenting & watching
2021 m3 sr+ 15000 miles 4.8% degradation. 263 miles new now 248 miles.
Thanks for the info and watching Barrie
I’m down in Cornwall and my insurance is not reasonable I have gone from £300 a year on a Volvo XC70 D5 2013 model to £830 a year on a M3P
Thanks, Kev I moved away from Cornwall last October after over 40 years living there
I expect I’m older and have more no claims than you that’s why I pay less
Anyway, enjoy your Tesla and safe driving
Your Volvo wad 10 years older and the Tesla performance is twice as fast zero-60 don’t you think the insurance will cost more
@@WilliamCooper951well obviously and the Tesla is worth a lot more but 3 times was a surprise. I wouldn’t call it reasonable.
I think you should charge to 100% occasionally just to rebalance the pack being unbalanced can cause the charge estimate to be off. Charging to 100% on a journey does little harm because you discharge it again fairly quickly. The damage is more to do with how long you're keeping it at 100%. So, you don't want to keep it topped up all the time.
That’s a great point, thank you
i think i said last year you need to do a full range test, charge to 100% and then drive steadily on a non windy and dry day and run the battery flat and then fully charge the battery and see how many kwh go into the car, this is your useable capacity and then use the new useable capcity and work out the loss, see bjorn in norway for his range tests
Thanks for commenting
Battery degredation is not linear,.you will lose most during the first year or so of driving, then your mileage will go up but degredation will stay the same meaning 1% is very accurate.
LFP's are fine to charge to 100% NMC are not and 80% is the Goldie Locks Zone.
Our E2008 is on 40k miles and 95% SOH and it's levelled out at that figure.
Thank you very much for watching and contributing
Recommend you to contact a real battery expert. Those EPA range values (miles and km) on our screens doesn't really indicate anything. It is a made up figure/number to calm down people with challenges with comprehension of range vs state of charge with Teslas.
Thanks for watching and counting Harry with an interesting comment
What is the insurance £££, I heard that in The UK it’s 10 fold the average car insurance ?? Can’t be true surely..
I got a quote changing from a Golf and it was £38 more for a year. So less that 10% higher. Don’t believe all the haters, they just pull numbers out their backside
My EV insurance is the same as a similar
Just another media anti EV story
People need to shop around for a good price
That’s what I do
Thanks for asking & watching
@@JimT-RCTgreat comment Jim
Thanks
i have model 3 made in China with LFP batteries got my car at end of May 2021, so far the car drove 133,000 kilometer and 100% show 397, when i just got it a 100% show 425 meaning i lost 6.6%.
@nigep BTW you should keep charging it once a week to 100% because the voltage curve in LFP batteries are almost flat and the BMS might lose track in witch state of charge the battery is and results in a less range. i saw a person in a Facebook group report he only charge to 80% and his car lost around 16% and his car is 6 months younger than mine.
Thanks for watching & commenting
Thanks for the advice
Take care
Just for comparison with a "high degredation" EV with no battery temperature management, my 2018 LEAF has 12.3% degradation after 53k miles and 6 years.
That's 1% per 4300 miles measured linearly as an average.
I'm sure it's still fine to charge to 100% on AC with the LFP battery on your Tesla.
Charging to 100% on a supercharger is probably not a good idea for practical reasons though?
Much better to charge to 80% or until the charge power drops significantly, then move on.
Thank you very much for watching and commenting
Hello from Portugal. I have a Tesla Y with LFP batterie with 63.000 kms. When new it marks on 418 kms now 407kms. But... and that is a big but.... when i charge it, it charges the same kws. You should try take it to 5 or 10% and see how many kws it charges to 100%. Considering that the batterie size is 60kw, and full, it only charges 58kws. Everybody knows the car will never make 400kms in normal conditions, so what says the computer it doesn't matter. I go from Lisbon to Merida supercharger in Spain with one charge only, and iI reach there with the same batterie percentage than when it was new.
Hello thanks for watching and commenting very interesting
I had a great trip to Portugal last year and drove down from Santander to The Algarve and had a great time
Take care
Olá Miguel. O meu é igual, de Novembro de 2022, com 45000km e tb está com 407km atualmente. Te ho curiosidade é em relação aos que estão a sair da fábrica da Alemanha com as baterias blade. Já li nuns comentários que têm degradação mais depressa que as Catl...
Just hit 8500 miles on mine and I’m still getting 265 at 100%
That’s great, John
Thanks for watching and commenting
My 2022 model Y RWD has 2.51% degredation after 87000 kms.
Thanks for watching and commenting Drew
Hi my model Y RWD 2023 is at 1.6%. I think I made an error in charging to 100% based on your loss.. I’ve done 26000km so far in 7 months. I started out at 435km now I’m at 428. I’ve now started charging to 70-80% daily and charging to 100% once a week which is what my recommendation is in the car when I move the charge slider from 100%. Hopefully my degradation starts to plateau out. To get to your level by 87000km
degradation is non linear 100k miles should be 10% 200k miles more like than 20%
Thanks