PAGEAU, BARD & HAMELRYCK | Religion for the Apocalypse
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- Alexander Bard, Jonathan Pageau, Thomas Hamelryck, and Andrew Sweeny on this week's Maniphesto Media Academy session.
What is religion all about in the 21st century, 200 years after Nietzsche proclaimed the Death of God? For some, religion is a perennial matter and we need to rediscover orthodoxy, for others religions should be reformed to meet the times-many today, even atheists, believe that they are 'spiritual but not religious'. So what do we mean by religion today?
Jonathan Pageau is an orthodox christian, an icon carver, symbolic thinker and famous youtuber; Alexander Bard is a Zoarastrian, and a continental and digital philosopher; Thomas Hamelryck is an expert on René Girard's mimetic theory of desire and a researcher in machine learning, and Andrew Sweeny a Vajrayana buddhist, writer, and podcaster.
Together they talk about ‘homo religiosus" (religious man) and his place in a world that has become more and more secular and hostile to religion.
0:00 Intro
03:19 Religion, religio.
05:04 Apocalypse.
06:31 Religion vs spirituality.
08:15 Process and event.
12:22 Religion and scapegoating.
18:02 Atheistic individualistic condition.
26:52 Rite of passage.
28:31 Three types of religions.
30:10 On being able to handle the ultimate truth.
31:13 Tantra and Sutra.
36:07 Tantra and transgression. Crazy wisdom.
45:29 Turning people into gods and descent into paganism.
48:21 Empire and nation.
52:16 Sacred theistic split.
56:49 Pagan mob aggression. Anoject.
59:45 Everything is a religion.
1:08:19 Information and understanding.
1:09:45 What is God.
1:24:03 Enlightenment and Tantra. Bardo experiences.
1:33:22 Hierarchy of compassion and submission. Priest and King.
1:45:51 Longing for the sacred. Paganism and sacred energies.
1:49:10 Dionysian and Cybelian.
1:52:41 Religion and Pathos, Logos, Mythos.
1:55:05 Cog-sci and mythological narratives.
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Here for Jonathan.
Three fascinating, thoughtful men and one very angry elf
Man this is funny. That is perfect. Thanks man. Hahahah
Yeah, the Zoroastrian seemed to have some anger issues.
bard seems like the most frustrating person to be stuck on an island with
Amazing event. Great to hear Bard and Pageau finally in a live discussion on religion. Much needed for the culture.
My worlds are coming together in a good way. Hoping some day the good Dr. Last can dialog with John Vervaeke, bring some of that Hegelian/Freudian/Lacanian Philosophy in the Real with his relevance realization mashup.
@@thevulgarhegelian4676
You might want to check this out: czcams.com/video/LPR-TXikAO0/video.html
Lacanian scholar and Orthodox priest.
@@ALLHEART_ thanks for lookin out. Being really love/ trying to understand Lacanian register more.
@@thevulgarhegelian4676 Np. Godspeed.
@@thevulgarhegelian4676 We'll see!
You gotta admit what Jonathan lays out as an explanation for theosis beats the hell out of the zoroastrian vision of the meaning of life lolz
well bard is gay
@@MrJafar93 good point.
The Zoroastrian guy is pretty cringe. "If I misrepresent your religion, let it be"?
does Zoroastrianism makes you angry? or is this guy so trapped in zoroastrianism that he can't accept anything else? or be open to learn anything?
I don’t know if being Zoroastrian turns you into that, but being a self-invented form of Zoroastrian where you pick and choose what it means to be Zoroastrian means that you fundamentally worship your ego and not the Zoroastrian God.
Trapped in ego
Bard: *takes lengthy time to seriously misrepresent Christianity*
Pageau: “That’s not an accurate depiction of Christianity…”
Bard: “Who cares about Christianity? Quit talking about it so much.”
No wonder Christianity took over so quickly given how messed up ancient religions were. Sheesh.
A zoroastrian arguing with an orthodox christian icon carver over what christianity teaches. Lol. Interesting conversation overall but Bard's prideful attitude really took away from it at times.
It's a symptom of Narcissism. Can't listen to thier personal propaganda.
I agree. Bard is annoying
Yup
Yep, “the mythological world is still there.” Jonathan is quite right.
Delightful and insightful conversation!
I agree Jonathan. Remember that God elected the weak and foolish things to confound and put to shame the wise. Always keep that in mind
Yes, “the peasants” are in daily connection with reality. It is the reconciliation of the despised with the honoured that creates the Christian way. Today we are all captured in the scapegoating: now it is the addicts, who need “to decide to get help”. “They don’t want to get better.” Total scapegoating.
Beato Angelico captured this profound wisdom when he paints Maria Maddalena supporting the collapsed body of the Madonna at the cross in the fresco in San Marco in Florence. The Medieval Christian understood mercy and context. It was at the heart of their practice.
03:19 Religion, religio.
05:04 Apocalypse.
06:31 Religion vs spirituality.
08:15 Process and event.
12:22 Religion and scapegoating.
18:02 Atheistic individualistic condition.
26:52 Rite of passage.
28:31 Three types of religions.
30:10 On being able to handle the ultimate truth.
31:13 Tantra and Sutra.
36:07 Tantra and transgression. Crazy wisdom.
45:29 Turning people into gods and descent into paganism.
48:21 Empire and nation.
52:16 Sacred theistic split.
56:49 Pagan mob aggression. Anoject.
59:45 Everything is a religion.
1:08:19 Information and understanding.
1:09:45 What is God.
1:24:03 Enlightenment and Tantra. Bardo experiences.
1:33:22 Hierarchy of compassion and submission. Priest and King.
1:45:51 Longing for the sacred. Paganism and sacred energies.
1:49:10 Dionyssian and Cybelian.
1:52:41 Religion and Pathos, Logos, Mythos.
1:55:05 Cogsci and mythological narratives.
Icon carver 😂 it's a meme at this point
I didn't like the yelling part, if you know something and are confortable with your knowledge chill out and explain without feeling threatened.
This reminds me of the Japanese language class I took. One of the students (an American in an introductory Japanese class) would constantly try to correct the teacher (a Japanese person who had just recently moved to America).
Jonathan is being so restrained here.
This was awesome! Thanks to everyone involved!
This conversation is so difficult and wise at the same time it's hard to comprehend, let alone word, how much I appreciate it.
Amazing! Thanks to all participants!🙏🏻
It’s fascinating to read the comments almost all of them are about how Bard wrecked the conversation with his pride and arrogance. If he could be more humble the next time, a conversation with much more beautiful flow would appear.
Interesting conversation. Very valuable!
So much psychology surfaces here:) You cannot shout any louder how special and unique you are than having some obscure religion barely anyone even heard of:) You would assume this person must be VERY DISAGREEABLE, and well, you can see it in the discussion:)
Tantra sounds like a euphemism for demonization, ie, assuming the “outside” psychic position of fallen spirits & thereby receiving power to act in domains/levels the “inside” (those in the Church) cannot access.
The giveaway is that it’s not fundamentally sacrificial, it’s for the self
Your intuition is totally right. I would suggest you look up St. Paisios and Fr. Seraphim Rose's commentaries on Far Eastern religions and spiritual practices such as buddhism and hinduism. They draw a very clear picture of it being a form of spiritual technology using demonic energies. If you are accustomed to this type of language of course.
An Infinite Ascent and Indwelling or as Aslan puts it: FURTHER UP AND FURTHER IN!!!
Jonathan Hamelryck “yeah well that’s entirely appropriate, isn’t it” had me cackling. He didn’t miss.
So crazy when people talk over each other and in the process misrepresenting their beliefs and doing some strawmen over and over. Don't act like an expert in everything, nobody is, and it's kinda annoying to hear people wanting to be "knowitall"... This was a very weird conversation, and hopefuly next time people do their research better and then speak and chill a bit more.
I am half way through, and I am enjoying the discussion, but Bard's heavy handed, reductionist approach is off-putting. I expect a more nuanced approach from a thinker of his caliber. His caricature of Christianity may ring true in the west but is almost completely invalid to Eastern Orthodoxy which is surprising given his specialty in Eastern Religion.
Found this at 3am…getting coffee ready. Was very surprised with the statement made intro clip. 🧐
Bard way to loud, yelling over others and interrupting too much. Otherwise good conversation.
It seems to me that christianity already contains everything the other religions offer and a whole lot more.
Pageau and Bard together🙄wowowow. I havn't been that surprised since Ulf Ekman became Catholic (probably Only Bard knows what that is all about. Perhaps) But I love it.
So, I'm beginning to conceptualize all ideologies as matrices and within this context, religion is a matrix which contains the veneration of virtuous self transformation towards an alignment with the "divine".
What I can't seem to do is make the leap of faith to delve into any one in particular. I'm honestly I'm favor of simply delving into all of them, even fantasy literature predicated on the same psychological tools as to force the emergence of my own unique religion that is tied to my experience with the comparing and contrasting of the texts rather than using a prefabricated format. This doesn't solve all of the issues that have emerged in the fallout of the death of god, but honestly the only religion that I would seriously commit to was codified in Tolkien's silmarillion and I can't bring myself to do that either soooo, yeah i just tilt the line between agnostic atheism and agnostic theism instead.
Edit: after finishing the video I have to respond to Jonathan's call to cease the rejection of Christianity. I have a few reasons for this:
1 fundamentalism traumatizes so many people away that you're asking them to participate in a matrix in which they were victimized, abused, and oppressed
2 the narrative itself leaves the divine feminine to mystery and instead of allowing actual women to have revelations that can influence the ideological development of the church. Their lower position within the hierarchy of values might not make them less in the image of god, but there are certainly consequences that seek to subjugate their experiences in the form of a system that forces them out of having full autonomy over themselves in relation to men in their family, society, and what I'd argue to be most important, their church. I know many women who have experienced the divine, who have had beautiful ideas revealed to them, but their influence amongst Christians is shunned as heresy or paganism regardless of the psychosocial revelations they actually entail. This goes not just for women, but anyone who's personality is estranged from the heteronormative. The Christian framework demands that the experience of the divine be filtered through the revelations of men alone. Maybe I don't know enough about the female saints to make such claims, but then again, that is quite also a result of their inevitable obscurity
8:48 Don't Zoroastrians not take converts?
As far as I know, Indian Zoroastrians do, while some of the Persian Zoarastians do not. I guess, like other religions, Zoroastrianism is not always just one thing. Bard converted back in 1992.
@1:10:00 The Orthodox Christian God is unique in that “He” is a hypostasis (person) and not an all-consuming monad. The latter is the model of Zoroastrianism and conceivably all world religions.
Search “our God is a consuming fire”
Idk guys. I kind of liked Bard. He's passionate
Entertaining but drags down the value of the conversation overall
Me, Too. He is clearly highly informed and it takes a certain force to integrate many ideas. I like people who are what we call eccentric. Hmmmmmm…..scapegoating.
I agree, Bard is the most interesting one here.
1:40 priest and king
An interesting discussion. I learnt a few things about Zoroastrianism. Thomas Hamelryck was very impressive; very, very, impressive. The low points were the self satisfied elitist consensus on the theology of the ordinary person on the street. I found this distasteful... if mental aptitude corresponded with spiritual aptitude, then psychopaths would be the most religious (in it's true sense) and most spiritually content class of people in any given society. This is telling... at least for me. Johnathan Pageau's dig at Evangelicals was my lowest point in this video. It is now a virtual consensus that the only unprotected group gets to be the Evangelicals. Everyone gets to take a shot at them. I have heard Johnathan mock them, time and time again. You were supposed to be part of the solution, Johnathan. There were several highpoints in this discussion, but these two low points are symptomatic of something fundamentally wrong with how intellectuals conduct their thinking in the private and public space. The very thing you despise in the mainstream intellectual space... you seem to have cultivated yourself.
Well Evangelicals are pretty cringe.
@@Octavian2 as is any given group in any denomination… no? Depending on one’s vantage point.
@@theartofsiku Modern protestantism and by extension evangelical theology is very weak in comparison to other denomination systems.
@@Octavian2 various tribes specialise and become very good at their specialty. I like to learn from various tribes: appreciate them for their uniqueness and vitality. In the end, all is Christ.
Objective truth exists. So, you could say different paths lead closer or further away from that. Why learn from those closer to darkness?
the sexism dripping from the first 7 minutes is truly enlightened.
I thought they was a reason why they invite individuals from different religious view points to share their opinions on the topic according to their religious traditions and atleast represent their traditions. I really don't like the idea that one man wants to be a Mr know all of all religions. Even if you know, at least leave it to the representative to defend rather than trying to argue with them. I think the conversation went down quickly into a sort of debate, though the moderator was really tried to bring it back to the subject. But don't try to want to show that you are well informed of traditions outside your own. If this was a debate, I would accept it, but it wasn't.
Just like on day one of creation, God is able to transcend night into day, jesus is lord because he transcends evil taboos (darkness) into holy sacraments (light).
1:06 monks and peasants
Alexander throws the gander gang sign at event loners at 10:37. How foul. 😅😂🤣
What in the world
Bard is why people new to Christianity walk way. Ignorance to others opinions, with a desire to steam roll over anyone trying to speak.
If you think you understand it all you are wrong.
Bard is very annoying in this talk and speaks with more authority than he actuality merits. He obviously envies Johnathan Pageau's prowess and status.
Of the many things he obviously got wrong, psrtocularly with Christianity, which would be fine had not seemed so confident and dominant, is that Daoism is clearly not dualistic (see 54:30 ) as is clearly written in the first lines by Lao Tzu.
The origin of the ten thousand things constitutes that the origin of things manifest derive from three parts, a triad.
He obviously has some disdain for Christianity and this is partly why he comes off as rude and arrogant, in general.
Still, great video
whatatology??
:)
The guy with the white beard is all over the place. Yelling over everyone else. Bad look.
Oh my goodness this is so hard to listen to. I’m barely tolerating it…someone mute Bard!
this bard guy is so irritating
At first I was too, but he has grown on me ( mybe thats bad?) Love Bard and love you Chris. You two together would be epic. Tune in to both of your talks as much as possible. Your last one on Pinker Rogan was strong💯❤
well since you were so nice and made my ego feel good I'll give this guy another chance, well done sir flattery will get you everywhere
@@the-chris-show 😂 your the best. Your psychedelic podcast I think really aligns with some of Bards project of getting outside are frames that are damaging us now and lookingnto new healthy forms of spiritual connections. Your points were spot on
1. The Chruch has lost culture War but I believe it should have never been in.
2. If these psychedelics can be taken in a really healthy place with healthy people it could be life-changing period and the science is backing that up. But a generation may have to die off before that is accepted I don't know?
Your the 1st to push back on PVK and that is the key to a healthy this corner of the internet.
Your spot on love Bard but me being Christian, (again I think? Some might not) i think has a miss understanding of Christianity.
Long post sorry.
STOP TALKING ABOUT CHRISTIANITY, JONATHAN! YOU WEREN'T BROUGHT HERE TO DEFEND YOUR BELIEFS!
He had to, as it seemed as if Bard was setting up a false image of what Christianity is, which could mislead the viewer.
Both Bard and Thomas H were doing this but I'm only part way through.
Alexander gets pissed about Jonathan asking him to distinguish between their opposing concepts. It was the mad Irishman who was unhinged the whole time.
How can he engage in a discussion about religion without talking about his own beliefs?