I love when I look up a topic on why co2 is used in a drag car, and get such a well-made video not only diving into the topic but also engineering and racing application. Well done Haltech.
Another awesome technically speaking video, Scott really aced the delivery on a complex topic so that it could have been enjoyed by pretty much all levels of interest. Thanks for staying committed as a solid brand within the market, nothing says dedication to success by empowering your consumer based with usable information. Cheers!
Yeah, I really don't get the advantage of using co2 instead of boost pressure for the pressure sources. You can use a 2-port wastegate with boost pressure and a solenoid. It seems to me you're adding extra expense, complexity, and maintenance (refilling tanks) to an otherwise simple system.
4g63holset I was thinking it may be more necessary for controlling substantial amounts of boost (40+?) Where I think a dual port is fine for running 5-25psi?
It makes sense for big drags cars, imagine having a twin turbo V8 for example, you may want to do the burnout or launch at 5psi and then wind it all the way up to 40psi. CO2 is also much quicker to respond and more accurate
Fanboy part of comment: OMG!U awesome, Greg. Big fan of your way of doing things! Keep it up! Proper part of comment: I would imagine that it is an "every 1% of improvement counts" type of deal, especially for competitive applications. More precise control, especially at very high boost levels, faster response, etc. I can't see anything that has such a high refill demand (i made that term up) to be targeted towards "street" applications.
At 4:00 he talks about the advantage of CO2 vs. using the intake as the regulating pressure source. Since the response time of CO2 is much faster you can tighten the control loop to make boost corrections much more quickly (you don't have to wait for the change at the waste gate to propagate through the intake tract).
No wonder the boost ctrl options for left me wantng.. its been put into the elite. Was almost bald frm d hair-pulling of tryin to run a fast enuf co2 gate ctrl wit only 1-solenoid (no press sensor) on my ps1000. Cause at the time i was exploring using co2 (2-3yrs ago iirc) nobody had even d exp nor d slightest clue wit dis kindof ctrl strategm (Malaysia). Would greatly appreciate if anybody wiling to share any tips for setting up co2 dome control (2-solenoids if poss.). Keep up d great content Haltech!
I was wondering about this myself, especially if you already have the compressor system in place or weight is less of an issue. I think you'd want a really good water separator on that solenoid supply line though!
This is a really great explanation and demonstration of how Haltech can control the wastegate pressure, but leaves me wondering.. If we set a target wastegate pressure, can we monitor and target a specific manifold pressure (traditional "boost") as well? How is the system keeping the wastegate closed to build boost then controlling the level of boost actually available? I would have thought having actual boost at the throttle plate as the controlled variable would give the "best" closed loop boost control. I must be missing something. I don't own Haltech but intend to use an Elite series ECU when I eventually build my turbocharged XU10 16v engine here in the UK.
Wastegate pressure is only applicable to CO2 boost control and you can force the wastegate to stay closed until you want with this control method. This is predominantly a drag race only method of control and not applicable to most applications. You cannot use the throttle to regulate boost effectively. Boost is controlled via a pressure bleed solenoid that regulates the amount of pressure at the wastegate diaphragm. Our ECUs offer a number of ways to control the boost and it is more up to the user to select the method they would like to implement to suit their application.
On a supercharged setup can you use a blow off valve to limit boost, instead of a wastegate? Or are BOVs not designed to control pressure as accurately?
It strikes me that a wastegate could be designed around a high-speed stepper motor (plus gears and levers) to provide fully-electronic control of the wastegate's valve. Combined with pressure transducers and a bit of software, you're done. Skip all the pressure lines, CO2 bottles, fiddling with springs, etc. There are those that would instinctively react (without thinking) that such an approach must be impossible. Fiddle sticks. I've seen plenty of applications of such technology that's more difficult than this application. One obvious consideration would be to design the system to keep the stepper motor away from the excess heat. So the final assembly would probably be bigger than a normal wastegate.
Maybe the answer is obvious, but could you use an onboard air compressor to replace the CO2 bottle as a pressure source? I'm not suggesting to always replace the bottle with a compressor(obviously a compressor is a lot heavier than a full bottle),but if you already had a compressor on the vehicle. Most compressors, either engine driven or 12 volt electric, produce a minimum of 120psi(8 Bar), with plenty of volume. I think the answer is yes and the C02 bottle is generally chosen for the low weight and innate incombustiblility desired in drag racing?
So is it only targeting WG pressure with no regard for MAP or turbo rpm or is it like a secondary control loop on top of your primary closed loop boost control?
Could you use compressed say N2 and spray it into the turbine to spool the turbo up faster? I say N2 because its inert and won't be read by any senser.
Considering the 2 times spring pressure thing, what would typically happen if I try and use closed loop boost control on a single port wastegate actuator with a 7 psi spring and try and run about 20 psi?
The two places we recommend are HP Academy and EFI University. Both reputable and capable of giving you full training with very little initial knowledge. Links below: www.efi101.com/ facebook.com/HPAcademy/
Would be great to use in street aplication, this precision will keep tires gripped accelerating on wet road especially in curves limiting and controling more precise the torque. I will fill up the CO2 bottle at beer shop 🤣
Hamish McGregor probably because c02 is filled to a much lower pressure than nitrogen or air. I work for an industrial gas company and deliver the stuff. Generally we fill c02 to 40bar (480psi), nitrogen and almost everything else to nearly 300bar (4350psi)
CO2 vs nitrogen might just be a matter of cost and/or convenience. I'm curious about compressed air, but I think the concerns could be water fouling of the wastegate vacuum lines or flammable air tanks interfering with some racing safety regulation.
Okay I think I understand what you're getting at, rather than have a potential air leak that could intensify an under bonnet fire you use CO2 to mitigate this potential hazard right?
I could genuinely listen to Scott all day, he's such a knowledgeable guy and explains everything in a non boring way, more of the same please Mr Fork!
I love when I look up a topic on why co2 is used in a drag car, and get such a well-made video not only diving into the topic but also engineering and racing application. Well done Haltech.
That's probably a 50 inch laptop but it just looks tiny beside Scotty.
LOL. It's all relative.
I love these Haltech videos. Scotty truly knows what he talks about, and explains things so that it is very easy to understand.
Another awesome technically speaking video, Scott really aced the delivery on a complex topic so that it could have been enjoyed by pretty much all levels of interest.
Thanks for staying committed as a solid brand within the market, nothing says dedication to success by empowering your consumer based with usable information.
Cheers!
Thanks for the comment:) It's good to know when our efforts hit the mark:)
Awesome stuff Scotty, really explained things brilliantly!
Boosted & Built Garage I
Your ute is one of my favorite cars out
Roy Da Boy Haha how cools that! Thanks dude, glad you like it🙂
I've watched all your vids nearly, good stuff
FANTASTIC! This is the video i was waiting for for CO2 Boost Control! Thank you Scott and Haltech for the great support and information!
Since a dual-port wastegate can give you a wide range of pressures, is the only advantage to a CO2 system more precise boost control?
Yeah, I really don't get the advantage of using co2 instead of boost pressure for the pressure sources. You can use a 2-port wastegate with boost pressure and a solenoid. It seems to me you're adding extra expense, complexity, and maintenance (refilling tanks) to an otherwise simple system.
4g63holset I was thinking it may be more necessary for controlling substantial amounts of boost (40+?) Where I think a dual port is fine for running 5-25psi?
It makes sense for big drags cars, imagine having a twin turbo V8 for example, you may want to do the burnout or launch at 5psi and then wind it all the way up to 40psi. CO2 is also much quicker to respond and more accurate
Fanboy part of comment: OMG!U awesome, Greg. Big fan of your way of doing things! Keep it up!
Proper part of comment: I would imagine that it is an "every 1% of improvement counts" type of deal, especially for competitive applications. More precise control, especially at very high boost levels, faster response, etc. I can't see anything that has such a high refill demand (i made that term up) to be targeted towards "street" applications.
At 4:00 he talks about the advantage of CO2 vs. using the intake as the regulating pressure source. Since the response time of CO2 is much faster you can tighten the control loop to make boost corrections much more quickly (you don't have to wait for the change at the waste gate to propagate through the intake tract).
That's a Ford EGR valve position sensor on that wastegate. :-)
Not a racer but curious why they complain about CO2 bottles, now I know thank you for the info.
No wonder the boost ctrl options for left me wantng.. its been put into the elite. Was almost bald frm d hair-pulling of tryin to run a fast enuf co2 gate ctrl wit only 1-solenoid (no press sensor) on my ps1000. Cause at the time i was exploring using co2 (2-3yrs ago iirc) nobody had even d exp nor d slightest clue wit dis kindof ctrl strategm (Malaysia). Would greatly appreciate if anybody wiling to share any tips for setting up co2 dome control (2-solenoids if poss.). Keep up d great content Haltech!
For a street car, an onboard air compressor and 1 gallon tank is also a great option.
I was wondering about this myself, especially if you already have the compressor system in place or weight is less of an issue. I think you'd want a really good water separator on that solenoid supply line though!
CO2 is not flammable, thats the case
Air is non flammable too...
Just hook up a sodastream bottle.
Sodastream tank cost more than regular one
This is a really great explanation and demonstration of how Haltech can control the wastegate pressure, but leaves me wondering..
If we set a target wastegate pressure, can we monitor and target a specific manifold pressure (traditional "boost") as well? How is the system keeping the wastegate closed to build boost then controlling the level of boost actually available?
I would have thought having actual boost at the throttle plate as the controlled variable would give the "best" closed loop boost control. I must be missing something.
I don't own Haltech but intend to use an Elite series ECU when I eventually build my turbocharged XU10 16v engine here in the UK.
Wastegate pressure is only applicable to CO2 boost control and you can force the wastegate to stay closed until you want with this control method. This is predominantly a drag race only method of control and not applicable to most applications.
You cannot use the throttle to regulate boost effectively. Boost is controlled via a pressure bleed solenoid that regulates the amount of pressure at the wastegate diaphragm. Our ECUs offer a number of ways to control the boost and it is more up to the user to select the method they would like to implement to suit their application.
On a supercharged setup can you use a blow off valve to limit boost, instead of a wastegate? Or are BOVs not designed to control pressure as accurately?
Nice. That wastegate position sensor uses a ford style plug. 👍
Do you think you guys could you do a video on strain gauge shifters and their integration into the haltec system?
on our list of things to do:)
Great video! getting ready to go co2 on my turbo!!
It strikes me that a wastegate could be designed around a high-speed stepper motor (plus gears and levers) to provide fully-electronic control of the wastegate's valve. Combined with pressure transducers and a bit of software, you're done. Skip all the pressure lines, CO2 bottles, fiddling with springs, etc.
There are those that would instinctively react (without thinking) that such an approach must be impossible. Fiddle sticks. I've seen plenty of applications of such technology that's more difficult than this application.
One obvious consideration would be to design the system to keep the stepper motor away from the excess heat. So the final assembly would probably be bigger than a normal wastegate.
Wouldn't be as reliable and tiny.
Why not use a 4 port solenoid? And vary the bottom hat pressure
Maybe the answer is obvious, but could you use an onboard air compressor to replace the CO2 bottle as a pressure source? I'm not suggesting to always replace the bottle with a compressor(obviously a compressor is a lot heavier than a full bottle),but if you already had a compressor on the vehicle. Most compressors, either engine driven or 12 volt electric, produce a minimum of 120psi(8 Bar), with plenty of volume. I think the answer is yes and the C02 bottle is generally chosen for the low weight and innate incombustiblility desired in drag racing?
I was wondering a similar thing - some applications use on-board air operated shifting, if that could be used to power the valve?
Yes you can do this ppl do it for sequential air shifting transmissions.
Great educational video - well done.
Crazy, I work at Conwin and made that regulator lol
Well presented, this seems like a complex system, is there no technology that can electronically position the wastegate valve?
Is this gonna be a regular thing ? if yes then Iam a happy man 😁😁😁
Yeah, we've been running Technically Speaking for a while now - if you go to our channel page you see them all in the Technically Speaking playlist:)
Always good stuff guys, thank you!
haltech all the way , loaded with all the gear on this rb26tt dash and all , its sick looking at ethanol % , like running after burner 500rwhp
So is it only targeting WG pressure with no regard for MAP or turbo rpm or is it like a secondary control loop on top of your primary closed loop boost control?
awesome as usual....
Could you use compressed say N2 and spray it into the turbine to spool the turbo up faster? I say N2 because its inert and won't be read by any senser.
Considering the 2 times spring pressure thing, what would typically happen if I try and use closed loop boost control on a single port wastegate actuator with a 7 psi spring and try and run about 20 psi?
If it's not realistic, what would be a more sensible solution: higher spring pressure or a dual port actuator?
why 2 wastegate ? is it to reduce waste ? as single wastegate could control it? or have I misunderstood
Why can't you use a 3 position 5 port valve? Wouldn't that be a tidier solution?
Couldn't you rebuild bottle air pressure with a air compressor?
Seen you on mighty car mods. You seem to really now your stuff!! Props!
Awesome are there any books that explain more about turbo charging
Here's one www.amazon.com/Turbochargers-HP49-Books-Spark-Ignition-Applications/dp/0895861356
I see an Oklahoma License Plate. ;)
This was great! More of this please :)
I just wanted to learn about co2 boost control, now I kind of want a haltech ecu
Great video. More please. :)
Hai , can i use this setup on platinum sport 1000 ecu ?
great vid
Anybody know if there is a school or course one could take to learn this and other in depth tuning? Thanks!
The two places we recommend are HP Academy and EFI University. Both reputable and capable of giving you full training with very little initial knowledge. Links below:
www.efi101.com/
facebook.com/HPAcademy/
Why not make a electrically actuated wastegate?
brett20000000009 heat, the force required to keep it shut the size of the stepper motor.
Variable Vane Turbos have this
Would be great to use in street aplication, this precision will keep tires gripped accelerating on wet road especially in curves limiting and controling more precise the torque. I will fill up the CO2 bottle at beer shop 🤣
The shazzy?? Oh, the chasis!!
Yes. That's how it is pronounced. czcams.com/video/elyvpTMEhFA/video.html
couldn’t and electronic boost controller do the same?
Does anyone use Nitrogen instead of CO2?
So possibly dumb question, why CO2 vs nitrogen or even a compressed air tank you could refill yourself?
Hamish McGregor probably because c02 is filled to a much lower pressure than nitrogen or air. I work for an industrial gas company and deliver the stuff. Generally we fill c02 to 40bar (480psi), nitrogen and almost everything else to nearly 300bar (4350psi)
CO2 vs nitrogen might just be a matter of cost and/or convenience. I'm curious about compressed air, but I think the concerns could be water fouling of the wastegate vacuum lines or flammable air tanks interfering with some racing safety regulation.
Why is James deen in the intro ?
Who?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Deen @ 0:29 , resemblance is uncanny
LOL they actually do look alike! That's gold:)
Why can you just use an electronic boost controller
Why don't they just make an electronic controlled wastegate? .
it seems like a lot of effort why don't they make a servo controlled wastegate you would have 100% control with a simple system
Heat, probably.
They do, it’s called variable vane turbos
👍🏻
Didn't know CO2 had a liquid state 😅
And solid, as in "Dry Ice"
Pay attention in science class next time 🙃
It can be present as gas, liquid or solid.
I was all excited about running co2 on my street car... Right up until he said refill after every event :(
wtf is a shazzy?
Sany0 😂
12 volt mini compressor
"togit pressures" :p accents r cool
tunning fork
he reminds me of ricky bobby when he doesnt know what to do with his hands.
2000 a deen
12 mini compressor to a small air tank no more filling the co2
Why CO2, why not just use air?
CO2 is a very safe gas to use in engine bays etc, as it isn't flammable. It is actually used in some fire extinguishers.
Okay I think I understand what you're getting at, rather than have a potential air leak that could intensify an under bonnet fire you use CO2 to mitigate this potential hazard right?
Controlling the right pedal is way cheaper than boost by gear. 😅