The New Religion - Tom Holland | Maiden Mother Matriarch 81

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My guest today is Tom Holland, co-host of the Rest is History podcast, and author of many books, including 'Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind.'
We spoke about the new book that Tom is working on, focused on the ideological revolution of the 1960s, which he compares to a second Reformation. He argues that the current culture wars are in fact theological wars between two different Christian factions, and that the newer faction is gaining in dominance.
In the extended part of the episode, we spoke about what true dechristianisation looks like, and why it is such a frightening prospect to anyone raised within the Christian moral framework.
02:36 A second reformation
11:00 Culture wars as a civil war in Christianity
15:00 Moving with the vibes
19:32 Euthanasia
21:31 Can the second reformation be classed as heresy?
24:41 A return to paganism?
28:20 Christian frameworks rebranded as universal
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[@nomcognom2414]

Two comments after listening to half the video. (I will listen to the rest later on.)
1) It sounds like wishful thinking to speak of reformation, which is something that can happen within a religion rather than across a number of them, even closely related. Christianity is not a single religion. The Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox Churches, etc., might achieve some degree of reapproximation, but they remain separate creeds. All of them might evolve in terms of gradually embracing various things that most of society started to normalize before the Church would, but that is just change, evolution, not reformation. Not before such changes become enshrined in mainstream Christian institutions. And while some institutions/churches seem to move in the right direction, this seems automatically compensated by a surge of those going backwards.
Western culture owes much to Christianity, but is largely moving away from it, in terms of religion. Westerners may hold on to Christian values, largely, but are less and less adhering to religious belief and Church. It is a secularization of society, and it is not bad, as long as people won't revert to irrational beliefs (which tend to be even worse alternatives).
2) All sorts of causes and movements will strategically play the Christian card, and actual Christians will no doubt adhere to such causes and invoke Christian values, but that doesn't equate with change and growth of Christianity. In fact, many of those embracing such causes will often be rather against religion, especially against Christian churches in the West. Many are progressives who see religion and Church as a reactionary obstacle, many are atheists, and many are leftists who regard religion and Church as part of the (bourgeois class patriarchate) "system" they seek to overturn.
Plus, to the extent such causes or movements succeed, it is often the case that those directly concerned will use their empowerment to turn against Christianity even more freely and actively. The Civil Rights movement was very Judeo-Christian but resulted in Nation of Islam, etc. LGBTQ+ people tend to be very vocal against the Church and Christian religion will often be mocked. Immigrants will often appeal to Christian values, only to rejoin non-Christian communities and movements.
What happens with Christianity is analogous to what happens with democracy: people will appeal to and exploit them, only to undermine them further instead of strengthening them. Wake up.
Both Christianity and democracy urgently need deep reforms, to update, vivify and strengthen them. What we are going through is not a reformation, though we badly need one. We are going through decadence. Our societies are getting less and less Christian and democratic. Not that I miss going go Church, etc.. Not that I want retrogrades to succeed, but they are, and are part of the problem. We need or want the essence of Christianity, or at least certain values, to flourish, that's all. To educate people in them successfully, we better offer a modern religion to those in need of guided spirituality. We still don't have any religion modern enough, updated to align with modern knowledge and society. As for democracy, not even progressives seem capable to understand how crucial and urgent it is to start transforming nominal democracy into actual democracy, where true citizens will enjoy true decision power on a daily basis, politically speaking. People don't get what they want and blame "democracy" (then turning to populist authoritarians), without anybody explaining them it is lack of democracy that frustrated their expectations. We get what we decide to go for, given the opportunity. It is not voting for political "representatives" once every so many years that we can hope to actually decide anything. They answer to their organizations, sponsors, etc., and they are those deciding on a daily basis, what to do and what not, instead of us. That needs to change.

[@davidlcaldwell]

I would make Tom Holland’s magnum opus “Dominion” required reading for those who truly wish to understand western civilization. It is a work of pure genius.

[@lennny2218]

Agreed, Im reading it right now. Its great~

[@WH-hi5ew]

I would also recommend "The WEIRDest People in the World; How the West became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous" by Joseph Henrich (2020). Not a million miles away but arguing similar things from a social science perspective... all starting in the 6th Century with the changes the Church brought to marital and inheritance laws in the West... which then over many centuries went on to create the modern world.

[@alexgibson2871]

@@WH-hi5ew interesting, i just went there after dominion, via war and peace (CLANG). I'm looking forward to the literary fallout / responses to dominion - hopefully there'll be plenty of it. Quite the turnaround after four horsemen, i hope the gen X's are into it.

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@alexgibson2871 I'm interested in TH's ideas of a second-Reformation... I think he's on to something.

[@davidlcaldwell]

@@WH-hi5ew Thanks for the Reccomendation.

[@billbadson7598]

“Vibes” don’t last. Without a bedrock on which to stand, the vibe will spin whichever way the wind blows. There’s nothing there but chaos.

[@thel1355]

Always was ...

[@Jules-Was-a-Liberal]

Ah, but even bedrock erodes over time, perhaps all things are vibes, and impermanence. If a tree falls in the forest, do you like ice cream koans?

[@billbadson7598]

@@Jules-Was-a-Liberal Agree to disagree I guess. Either way, we'll both be gone before we have the opportunity to see if Christ fails.

[@Joeonline26]

That's the whole intention of those who want to tear western civilization apart. If they can tear down the current system then all that's left is a state of chaos, which is thr perfect space to grab power and implement your ridiculous ideology

[@l3eatalphal3eatalpha]

There is no bedrock. Religion is an attempt to get put of the 'turtles all the way down.' Just look at how Christianity has changed over two millenia. Fundamentalism is an attempt to have an unchanging bedrock and that is perhaps the least spiritual of all.

[@donaldgoodwin4759]

I think a big weakness in Tom's argument here is the way he inconspicuously slides from the Christian concern for innocent life to the idea of "bodily autonomy", as if the latter were at all the same. Not only are the two concerns very distinct, but I would argue that bodily autonomy is actually an anti-Christian idea. Our bodies aren't our own, they're God's. That's why you're not allowed to jump into bed with whoever you want, even if you're both "consenting adults" and "you're not hurting anyone." The problem is that you're defiling your body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit, as 1 Corinthians puts it. The reverence for bodily autonomy is not an extension of Christian belief but a repudiation of it.

[@berachtdorian6191]

Thank you. 😊

[@marthell6159]

The problem is that neither you nor any other Christian has the right to impose what YOU believe God wants.

[@MKeller4033]

In addition, there is the peculiar fantasy that a fetus is just part of a woman's body, like an arm or a breast. From a Christian perspective (I'm looking at you, @marthell6159), this is nonsensical. But I also find it nonsensical from the perspective of logic, for unlike an arm or a breast, a fetus can only be created by two separate autonomous individuals. The "it's my body and I'll abort if I want to" school utterly and illogically pretends the father does not exist.

[@ohthankg-dforthebourgeoisi9800]

@@marthell6159that’s why we have legislation and legislators

[@logosao88]

@@marthell6159 Why not? An individual Christian can vote for laws, can't they? And ANY law is an imposition of one's belief upon another. Creating "Hate Speech" laws is a great example of how the political Left imposes their interpretation of what is right upon the rest of society.

[@oldschoolsaint]

If Christ and the scriptures are removed from Christianity there ceases to be a thing called Christianity. That is not "reformation". It is obliteration.

[@bryanutility9609]

It’s a transmutation of the instincts & values continuing, evolving, & now applied to other topics. Original sin = exhaling CO2. Original sin is a bad founding principle no matter what.

[@justchilling704]

@@bryanutility9609Depends on who’s defining. Augustine’s view was largely unique to him, and driven by his gnostic background and struggle strongly lusting after women. There are other views such as ancestral sin, that make a lot more sense.

[@justchilling704]

Excellent point.

[@johnwheeler3071]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[@bryanutility9609]

@@justchilling704”ancestral sin?” Was St. Augustine married? I have no problem with lust after women any more then hunger for food in that sense.

[@markbib28]

That ain’t Spiderman!

[@zoot4358]

Ah shaddap

[@carmelocaramelo2296]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@JCRezonna-dl5qz]

How would you know? He wears a mask to work.

[@bryanutility9609]

@@JCRezonna-dl5qz he doesn’t have Covid i guess

[@GrayBlanket]

21:15 "Every heresy is a truth taught out of proportion." G.K. Chesterton

[@deusvult9837]

The most sensible comment made here. Reformation is a glorified euphemism for simple out and out heresy.

[@jnauttube]

As an atheist, i miss the old gods, because the new ones scare the hell out of me

[@cherylschalk9106]

Like Molech? You like dead babies

[@KermRiv]

i'm gonna start using this

[@kbeetles]

@@KermRivwhat do you mean the "old gods"? They are right there in the background feeding their children, the "new gods"........

[@johnglenn2539]

Christianity is the heat shield against pagan psychoses. Multiculturalism, environmentalism, feminism, communism, fascism, globalism...

[@rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr1]

The "new" gods ARE the old gods. And they're bloodthirsty.

[@ravencole8727]

Such an interesting interview! Looking forward to Tom's forthcoming book.

[@klaus9688]

Tom Holland's obersvations are brillant, and I have long been a huge fan. However, Louise's point is even supported by his arguments: by masking openly religious Christianity as universal secularism and "Western culture", the Western societies seem to have forbidden themselves to forcefully defend their democracies from people who openly plan to replace Western democracies with the caliphate. The question is: do Western societies believe they have a right to want to maintain their culture ?

[@goa9034]

Spot on

[@bambusleitung123]

Du hast absolut recht. Vor allem in Deutschland scheint man das aber nicht zu begreifen. Man glaubt die eigenen Werte sind schützenswert, weiß aber nicht warum. Und wenn dann irgendwelche Muslime das Kalifat fordern, fehlt der Tatendrang, diese Angriffe zu zerschlagen.

[@crockmans1386]

....kinda true.
But : the modern western values will always survive. It might take another 1ooo years, but so be it. Doesnt matter. Even if it takes 5ooo years, who cares.
Any and evry religion will die out - religions that do not mention the importance of brushing your teeth twice a day. Religions is old, dated stuff.
Humans are often violent, okay. But having discussions about : is islam or christianity a religion of peace? Thats nonsense.
Any wealthy modern society is peaceful .... wants peace for life n good business.
Religions are lame ole stuff, okay.
But people like to get violent, especially young men. That comes from envy and taught self hatred. The notion of you are not good enough. The preacher then only gives a direction.....

[@skylinefever]

I often joke "Follow the east. Be more like Japan and South Korea. They have sealed borders and don't mind being called xenophobes."

[@donpietruk1517]

​@@skylinefeverThe Poles seem to have the right idea on it from a more western perspective.

[@oldAzekai]

I wish Louise would have pushed back a bit harder- a culture without orthodoxy, running on ‘vibes,’ as Holland accurately puts it, is not strong. Belief is much stronger than vibes and gut feeling, and radical belief is both stronger than vibes and far more dangerous.

[@jasmadams]

Perhaps more importantly, the cultures running on vibes are dying. The Church is alive and well...in the global South. And there these questions are already well settled, because heresies have not been permitted to flourish.

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@jasmadams The vibes come out of the bedrock though... hence the Mobius strip idea that he mentions. There is obviously now a tension between the vibes and the bedrock... hence this idea of a new reformation... it's paradoxical as he suggests.

[@deusvult9837]

There is an ocean of difference between the redeeming victimhood of Christ the incarnated Logos and the victimology of modernity. One is a metaphysical and historical reality, the other an ideological caricature of it. Instead of a new reformation, I would call it an ancient gnostic deformation. It's as old as 'you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil'. There is something off in Tom's argument, and Perry has intuited it.

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@deusvult9837 Modernity however comes out of our Western European Christian history. Specifically changes to marital and inheritance laws made by the Roman Catholic church would have wide ranging implications for European culture, society, history, psychology, economics and politics. I appreciate you are making a faith-base point... I'm making a social science historical one.

[@Chris-go7vv]

A Johnathan Pageau interview would be helpful

[@b.melakail]

Pageau's ideas on beauty and Mary combined with D.C Shindlers ideas on freedom lend themselves well to Louise's interests

[@fitzhamilton]

c. 18 mins, concerning scriptural inspiration for Christian condemnation of abortion, the issue is actually pretty clear: the Annunciation (March 25, the conception of Christ) occurs nine months before the Nativity on December 25. God became man at conception. John leapt in Elizabeth’s womb at the Visitation. All of this is recorded in Luke 1. It’s not just the New Testament, the Old is unequivocal as well: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you.” Jeremiah 1:5, 18:05; and “For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made..” Psalm 139:13.

[@michaels4255]

That and the 6th commandment. Even Late Antique pagans were aware that Christians prohibited abortion. The church never had any other position.

[@bdnl6268]

The pro-life concern is not only with the autonomy of the mother over her own body, , but it is with the baby, which is genetically and demonstrably a separate human being. It is "following the science."

[@grannyannie2948]

Only one persons bodily autonomy matters

[@iliasmastoris529]

​@@grannyannie2948But whose child is it really? Only the mother's? Or both parents? If the former, then why would a male take the risk of participating in parenthood?

[@grannyannie2948]

@@iliasmastoris529 I do agree. And it's one of many flaws in Tom's argument. There is no regard at all for the babies bodily autonomy. And I've never heard bodily autonomy described as a Christian belief, does he mean free will, which is not the same thing. I'm glad my Australian state doesn't have abortion.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Which state is that, ​@@grannyannie2948?
And which offenders are punished? And how?

[@b.melakail]

It is kind of disappointing that Tom uses such a weak argument for abortion....unless he is just stating that the pro choice inclination comes from a Christian mentality

[@elliotheath5366]

Well timed interview! I am now on my second read through of dominion after finishing persian fire. Looking forward to the next title

[@carmendevine7244]

There is already a name for this heresy/movement, and it didn't start in the 1960s, but the mid nineteenth century, and it is called "Modernism"

[@grannyannie2948]

In the 19th century they had what was called muscular Christianity. We need to return to that.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

What is muscular Christianity,​@@grannyannie2948?

[@859902]

I agree TH places too much primacy on the influence of Christianity. There are other elements of this new religion which mean 'post modernism', (in a wider sense than usually understood) may be a better descriptor.

[@tomasrocha6139]

It started long before that when some Christians tried to fight the slavery that is promoted in their scriptures.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

What is 'muscular Christianity,' @@grannyannie2948 ?

[@jefffrederick8648]

The 60’s counterculture which you call the 2nd reformation may have started reasonably enough with young people not wanting to die in a war they didn’t believe in and it did produce some good music, but quickly devolved into something very selfish and destructive. All about illegal drug use, promiscuity, misogyny and self indulgence. Every generation since, that venerates the longhairs of 60 years ago and holds tenaciously to their progressive ideas becomes more intolerable and full of ego. Add to the mix, social media and pornography and you can see the results.

[@crockmans1386]

Hey Jeff. That sounds good. The 60s were just that. Reform.
And yes, to much drugs. And good music. All very necessary.
Lets not be negative about that.
Christianity has had 2000 years of christian wars to show us its true (lame) colours.
Now lets observe this new reform for the same amount of time.
Okay?

[@skylinefever]

Peep shows exited in the 1940s. Playboy existed in the 1950s. Somehow the 1960s were the difference?

[@venus_envy]

@@skylinefever If anything the 1920s were even more debauched. These people lack historical perspective, they are doom-sayers.

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

​@@skylinefeverChild prostitution was quite high in the late 1800s as well.

[@michaels4255]

@@skylinefever There was naughty stuff in the 1920s as well, and in the 18th century for that matter. But yes, the 1960s were different, that was the decade that really sought, and to a large extent did, invert the hierarchy of values on a large scale.

[@donagh1954]

Tom speaks with great clarity to make his points. Smart guy.

[@vancearmor9046]

Also, Tom appears to do a very English thing. He is basically saying that Western Progressive Imperialism is “the real Christianity.” Russian priests would no doubt disagree. Also, Serbian, Syrian Orthodox, Ethiopian, etc.

[@damiencasey8428]

On the contrary, he is saying there isn’t one real Christianity, but an impulse that goes in all sorts of directions, “breeding paradoxical responses”

[@CJB333]

I'll always have a listen to a man that has a sword in his background. It's even with his hat and bag like its his regular on the go attire.

[@bensanderson7144]

Good point. The sword among the books seems oddly cultured.

[@jcooper2373]

Haha I thought the exact same thing

[@raymccune7864]

He is a scholar of ancient and medieval history though, he probably quite likes being surrounded by artifacts

[@jenniferlawrence2701]

I suspect Louise's more pessimistic predictions about the future (Islam, nietzschean attitudes to abortion and euthanasia) will prove to be more correct than Tom's.

[@venus_envy]

Islam is dying and everything else she said is the sort of thing that happens in phases throughout history. Too many people lack perspective. She reminds me of the 19 year old I saw posting online a few years back thinking covid lockdown would be permanent. Childish, in a way. I had planned to buy her book but I might skip it now, to be honest.

[@rejectionisprotection4448]

​@@venus_envyWell it IS in a way, for people who've stayed WFH.

[@danimal118]

Tom would welcome the Antichrist as the ultimate culmination of the evolution of Christianity.

[@deusvult9837]

Islam is dying ? With England half islamised, that must rank as the joke of the century.

[@Frederer59]

I'll send my support to Tom, thank you very much.

[@charliedontsurf334]

So Christianity is explicit, if Christ has not been raised then the faith is futile (1 Corinthians 15:17). There is a big difference between whether communion/eucharist is literal or not. If the resurrection didn’t happen, then Christianity is false by its own rules.
No one goes from Atheism, Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism etc to Progressive Christianity. They are all people who chose liberalism over Christianity from more conservative churches. I do think Louise is right. This is a Christian heresy, not a new religion, and it’s not new. This is another form of Gnosticism that has been an issue for Christianity since the beginning. Examples include the Nicolaitans, the 2nd century Gnostics, the Cathars, and so on.

[@bensanderson7144]

Yes, I agree. I thought it was obvious that it’s not a new Christianity. It’s Gnosticism again, that Jesus was just a free spirit, a hippy walking around spreading love, teaching people to find their inner Jesus. That’s not “new Christianity”, it’s Gnosticism

[@grannyannie2948]

Exactly, I agree. And most of the things mentioned are evil manifestations.

[@venus_envy]

@@bensanderson7144 That's not what the Gnostics taught. Like, at all.

[@bensanderson7144]

@@venus_envy yes, it is; it is spot on, 100% accurate.

[@brendonlake1522]

Europe & England have effectively fallen prey to Muslims as far as I can see so I would agree with Louise on that. Tom & Louise continue to be fascinating contributors to the ongoing conversation on how Christianity can be conceptualised in the present cultural moment!

[@thomasjpuleo8112]

This was a really interesting discussion. Thank you for creating it.

[@EmperorsNewWardrobe]

23:41 “And I suspect that the new kind of Christianity - whether we call it a heresy or a new orthodoxy - contains more solvents than most”

[@stefanlouw6395]

Fascinating conversation, I only wish it was longer!

[@sarawoods1450]

On Music… Andrew Fletcher a Scottish nationalist in circa 1800 said “give me the music of the land and I care not who writes its laws !
As a Christian who’s watching this all unfold and uncertain exactly where I stand, but who grounds my views in Jesus teachings I think Tom Holland has nailed it as to what is going on here! Fascinating

[@Tom-yg9ts]

No one is it going to make serious sacrifices for the sake of a vibe. It was only the believed promise of eternal life that made people do it in the past.

[@skylinefever]

Incentives drive behavior, I wonder how many miserable things Christians only did because of hellfire and brimstone BS.

[@kitwanaabraham560]

This is the question I would like answered: How has Christianity or Christian beliefs contributed to or failed to prevent or arrest plummeting fertility and birth rates all across Western Europe?
How is it that the epicenter of institutional Christianity (Italy) has the lowest birth rate on the continent?
Why is it that when capitalism is combined with Christianity and liberal ideology, the end result is that young people increasingly reject marriage, having children, and raising a family?

[@TheRedfire555]

I found Tom Holland's book Dominion through Louise, so I was waiting for this one. Very interesting interview!

[@jamesbrennan1765]

Fascinating discussion. Thanks Louise!

[@Anakin1999]

I think another example of us living in a Christian world (for now) is how little criticism Jesus (as a figure) receives from non-Christians (compare that to Mohammed), he’s a prophet in Islam, Jews don’t care to criticise the man that is Jesus (just his status as messiah) and even some Hindus have embraced him as an avatar of Vishnu

[@jGeb-sx3kv]

Early Christians had clear teaching against abortion, as seen from one of the oldest surviving documents we have from early Christian communities on the ethical and liturgical practices - the Didache. chapter 2 is clear on abortion and even contains language to distinguish between a child and „that which is begotten“ (while maintaining the prohibition) in a time when the question of ensoulment and so forth was not considered settled.

[@mh4zd]

I assure you I'm not trying to validate abortion here, but what you cite here is not canonical, which is normatively a huge distinction in Christian circles. Anyone after the closing of the canon can write anything. While I can absolutely believe that the intuitions fostered by a general attentiveness to the lessers of society (forwarded by Christianity) would couple with an innate sentiment against abortion, it is interesting that it's not covered in the canon. Also interesting is the only place it gets mention in the OT is when God commands it to be done to Israel's enemies, and as a ritual of administering a potion to women suspected of adultery (if guilty, they abort, via, presumably, an herbal toxin).

[@grannyannie2948]

The Romans wrote with some curiosity that Jews and Christians did not practice infanticide

[@grannyannie2948]

My reply disappeared. The Romans recorded that Christians did not.

[@mh4zd]

@@grannyannie2948 The Israelites proudly recorded their own committing of infanticide, on both sides of the womb.

[@tomasrocha6139]

@@grannyannie2948 Source? All Roman writers we have like Musonius Rufus and Julius Paulus denounced infanticide except when the baby couldn't live due to deformities.

[@peggyoban4069]

I wish he read the audio book. He has such a wonderful voice.

[@WH-hi5ew]

I'm not sure the future is secular as TH suggests..... I see the rise of religious nationalism in Burma, India, Israel etc as indicative of the tendency for religion to re-exert itself under the pressures of modernity. It's a means of cohesion, shared values etc when modernity tends to hollow-out cohesion, shared values etc. Hence the culture war in USA.... it's a re-exerting of conservative values in the face of modernity's progressive encroachment.

[@charlo90952]

Yes. This is exactly the trajectory. Hence the rise of Islam. The more our culture disintegrates the more attractive Islam becomes.

[@PooKulseekers]

Buddhist or Hindu or Jewish nationalism is poles apart from Islamic or Communist Secular or Christian nationalism. If October 7, 2023 doesn't wake up Muslims, Communists/Marxists, and Christians, then they shouldn't try to make others sleep who are waking up.

[@anthonyml7]

Attempting to replace God tends to have negative consequences both on an individual and communal level

[@mathish1477]

Yep, once removed no need to replace

[@anthonyml7]

@@mathish1477 spoken like a true anarchist

[@mathish1477]

@@anthonyml7 no, not an anarchist, an evolutionists

[@mathish1477]

@@anthonyml7 evolution, not revolution - totally different

[@anthonyml7]

@@mathish1477 Nvm, we actually do agree

[@mb123tdt]

Watching from Warsaw, POLAND:)

[@kolawoleodejobi4637]

🎉🎉

[@thel1355]

The major flaw in the new Christianity is that it discourages fertility.

[@billbadson7598]

That’s a benefit to everyone who doesn’t follow the heresy, though

[@druharper]

No, that’s Feminism v3 and v4.

[@grannyannie2948]

The same thing happened when Rome adopted Christianity under Constantine

[@courtilz1012]

I think fertility in the Roman Empire increased after the adoption of Christianity, they talked about that in the interview? There is a evolutionary biology book called 'Darwin's Cathedral' by David Sloane Wilson about how Christianity increased fertility.

[@geoffstemen3652]

Only relatively. The sexual revolution has accelerated the reproduction of short-term-minded, r-selected people, globally incentivizing antisocial sexual pathologies.

[@sophrapsune]

Just thinking about one’s own religion, whether Islam or Hinduism or even Christian, as distinct from others is not to be “Christianised”. It’s just a recognition of a diverse world.
The real concern is that the lack of any secular tradition in, say, Islam means that the constitutional arrangements in open Western societies must always be anathema to a devout Muslim.

[@kbeetles]

Please study the Muslim religion, with special attention to the figure of Mohammed, before you venture to pass comments on religions....Thanks!

[@crockmans1386]

.....he was a warlord.

[@bryanutility9609]

@@crockmans1386Jesus was a slave. As if being a war lord is bad.

[@danielmaher964]

​@@bryanutility9609 trolling?

[@bryanutility9609]

@@danielmaher964 just stating the obvious

[@karlhetzke691]

The affluence question at the end is interesting, but important to remember that affluence isn't an independent variable. The most affluent countries tend to be the ones most thoroughly integrated with the US-led global economic order. Assuming Perry is referring to Japan, South Korea and Taiwan when she mentions "North East Asia", it's pretty clear their modern affluence comes from thorough integration with the West (which in some cases included years of US occupation), so it doesn't seem obvious that affluence produced the liberal values... More that liberal values came with joining the system that (in the 20th century) was the most affluent

[@neglectingtodrown]

South Korea in particular is marked by a large Christian population.

[@michaels4255]

Affluence comes from increasing worker productivity, primarily through technology fueled by large amounts of cheap energy. It has been observed at least since the 18th century (John Wesley's famous observation, for example) that wealth has a liberalizing effect on cultural and moral values, and so does democracy as even Plato and Aristotle observed.

[@krrrzzzzzz]

I feel like this should have been a Conversation between three people. I really think Louise should’ve added a religious scholar to the conversation. Would love to see Holland hold his position.

[@kevinmolloy4356]

no, that would have defeated the object. The object being of course a drip drip criticism of christianity.

[@gavwan]

I think Tom's liberal Christian lens supposes too much enduring goodwill based on local peacetime in major western nations since WW2 and ignores the math of group birthrates + democracy over time.

[@jenniferlawrence2701]

Spot on.

[@judithjohnson5055]

He once said he would write a book about the 60s; I hope it is published while there are still some of those who enjoyed that decade here to read it!

[@Forester2547]

Great stuff! Just discovered this channel now. Could you explore Zoroastrianism and its hidden impact on the world from Second Temple Judaism all the way to Nietzsche?

[@adrianthomas1473]

He is correct - pagan and heathen are Christian terms - pagan = country and heathen = heath - the old religion survived in the countryside and Christianity was the religion of the towns. And he is absolutely correct about Islam. Secularism is an offshoot of Christianity. Everyone has absorbed so much of Christianity that we now take it for granted.

[@michaels4255]

No, secularism is a derivative of the industrial revolution. Prior to the industrial age, religion permeated every aspect of culture. Kings ruled by divine right, heresy and witchcraft were capital offenses, Jews were barely tolerated on the margins of society, etc. With the industrial revolution, we see families, villages, guilds, etc. being disrupted, and secularism followed shortly on the heels of those changes.

[@jasoncabral8732]

I'm Christian. Plain and simple. Will be until I die. Raising my daughter Christian. These issues are not confusing to me. Life is sacred.

[@andrewfindlay7594]

Fascinating discussion.

[@ItsKennedyDarling]

Potential wildcard episode request- but I would love Louise and a distinguished guest’s perspective on psychedelics! Feminine archetypes, religious symbolism, counterculture… fertile ground for some opining.

[@G0ldenb0y.]

thank you for this

[@beachball391]

Don’t see how scripture can interpret itself out of existence.
The battle is spiritual:
‘Our battle is in the spiritual realm’
I’m not sure even the great Tom Holland can fully understand or accept that Yahweh cannot be unseated or defeated.
The answer lies in scripture itself. It is called spiritual blindness.
You cannot intellectualised your way past it. It is removed through faith alone alone like the scales falling from Pauls eyes.

[@johnbarnas879]

The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisest man.

[@fjorir_official]

The basic problem with his argument is you can't prove a negative. He says anything is Christian because he can argue some link, akin to five degrees of Kevin Bacon, then expects that alone to be proof. It's hard to argue he's wrong because you can't DISprove the link because it's simply a connection of vague ideas rather than a historical claim you can argue with.

[@zgobermn6895]

Fantastic!

[@lemoneyesalt5513]

Hi Louise, I would love to see you interview Malcolm Collins! At based camp.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

I'm a Unitarian minister. Our path of evolution goes something like this - Arianism, Socinianism, classic Unitarianism, 'providential deism', liberal Christianity, religious humanism, modern universalism, pluralism, 'progressive liberationism'.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

I forgot transcendentalism. Regarding the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King Jnr is influenced by the Transcendentalist Unitarian Theodore Parker. Then the murders of (white) Unitarians Rev James Reeb and Viola Liuzzo were important in forcing Lyndon Johnson's hand. Irony there of course.

[@Monitoring358]

Most other parts of the world use us as their comedy,we are beyond fucked.
But they aren't so hot either.

[@garyweglarz]

Theological debate seems to have gone from pondering the question of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" in the 1200's - to - "how many gender identities can dance on the head of that same pin?" Questioning the theological validity of the underpinnings of either of those "religious perspectives" is of course branded as - heresy and punished accordingly. : /

[@Guillhez]

speaking of angels and genders, it always struck me that the people claiming to not fit into the man/woman binary and identity as something exotic in between or outside of that aspire to somehow transcend humanity and wish to be some kind of angelic androgynous creatures
ps. and when they inevitably fail to achieve this enlightened angelic state, like fallen angels, the result can be demonic

[@grannyannie2948]

I often think the same about angels on a pin.

[@brandankelly4069]

Can you please post a link to that eight part course on Christianity. I couldn’t hear the details. Other that an excellent interview.

[@DemetriosKongas]

The first Reformation was related to the beginnings of capitalism. The second Reformation is related to late capitalism.

[@searose6192]

*I think there is huge pieces missing from his analysis,* most noticeably; *intentionality* and a goal. James Lindsay’s deep dive into the Gnostic roots of the “left” side of this battle is a excellent, and gives a much deeper and broader historical context to the tug of war within Christianity and within the world than this very shallow skimming of the ideological and theological motivations underpinning the sea change we are all experiencing. Everything this man says is true, but massively incomplete.

[@commonwunder]

Louise and Tom are on such different wavelengths...
Tom can only sees the unfolding present through a theoretical and historical framework.
Almost as if freewill doesn't exist... people are caught up within an uncontrollable zeitgeist.
Louise wants to engage with his ideas, only through the practical prism of the here and now.
She believes in freewill... in rolling up your sleeves and righteously righting wrongs.
What do you believe?

[@Jules-Was-a-Liberal]

Yo, are you an AI, or a bodhisattva?

[@grannyannie2948]

I didn't think either of them were onto anything

[@alexgibson2871]

love listening to both these two. i was reminded of the stephen fry/JBP chat. In that one Fry refused to contemplate the larger cycles of religion/history and overarching views, almost condescendingly, while JBP didn't quite manage to get down to Fry's level of random or small scale events, or articulate the meeting of the two necessary views. but this one feels like new territory for me, both Tom's historical thesis and Louise's reappraisals of things considered done and dusted. great stuff.

[@PGHEngineer]

I believe that individuals have freewill but societies simply react to everything that went before.
Ww1 led a generation later to ww2 which led a generation later to the social revolution of the mid 60s and so on. The ripples dissipate as the ages pass.
You and I can change the direction of our own lives but our impact on broader society is negligible, governed as it is by people who are fully ensconced within the group think of their own political parties.

[@sammygoodnight]

Very interesting idea. Not sure if I buy it, but nice thought experiment anyway.

[@DanSme1]

For Holland, “reformation” is simply an ideological shift, but not in the sense of theistic religion, but rather a ubiquitous Scientific Humanism.

[@anshumangaurav]

First. Also, Tom is a great guest on the pod!

[@clayc1287]

How much does something have to change before we start calling it by a different name?

[@mattspintosmith5285]

The second 'Reformation' which is spoken of here is what Integral people would call the rise of the Green MEME (paradigm) in Spiral Dynamics, which did indeed come to prominence in the late sixties - a meshing of the communitarian and the divergent postmodern. Created by Dr C. Graves, repackaged by Beck and Cowan, and appropriated effectively by Ken Wilber, Spiral Dynamics is the most insightful theory that most people have never heard of.

[@reneknaap1745]

As much as I admire Tom Holland I perceive a significant blind spot. Louise rightly identifies abortion and euthanasia as test cases of the emerging religion. What Tom fails to see is that there are already well entrenched and vocal advocates for extending abortion rights to infanticide, and ‘mercy killing’ to be a duty to die rather than a right to die. The evaporating fumes of Christian culture will, as Louise rightly notes, lead to a new paganism, where might is right and the weak have no place

[@skylinefever]

I had been doing those things when the God Squad ordered me to do the opposite.

[@peterboos930]

Tom is hugely erudite and interesting.

[@artscience9981]

Looking at the comments below, I think one reason misunderstand or dismiss Tom is that “Dominion” is a long and complex argument and summation of many historical trends. It is difficult to communicate all this prior thought in few minutes on a podcast.

[@elijah5791]

Tom Holland is brilliant; however, the point in this interview where he keeps shifting the conversation to discussion of post-Christian semantical categories instead of answering Louise Perry’s question about the impotence and lack of confidence of the “new Christianity” to resist being overtaken by ideological rivals was very frustrating. This is a very important question!
He has a very big blindspot when it comes to the cultural threat of Islam.

[@crockmans1386]

...is there a new christianity? Really? Serious deep christian belief is a thing of past centuries.
No religion stands the test of time... when science is allowed to investigate old cultural myths...

[@Jules-Was-a-Liberal]

I'm just gonna say, underneath "theologies" (which imo are codifications and mythologization of bundled adaptive group traits) is "behavioral genetics".
(I think we TAKE AWAY power from the ACTUAL fringe-right, by acknowledging this reality in mainstream discourse. So I don't think it should be excluded from this whole convo).

[@skylinefever]

Jolly Heretic Dutton argued that religions just promote group survival tactics under the name "Will of God."

[@skylinefever]

Behavioural genetics will always get struck down for racism and classism.

[@michaels4255]

Once you admit that behavioral genetics (a euphemism for sociobiology) is a thing, and that adaptiveness matters, you have already lost. The entire heritage of liberalism/leftism since the Enlightenment is grounded on the opposite assumption. The "fringe right" can be accurately summed up as "biology matters," while the whole of the opposing camp in all its egalitarian variants is based on the assumption that biology does *not* matter, which has been the documented position of Western intellectuals since the 17th century.

[@alphacause]

Thank you, Louise, for inviting Tom Holland on your program. So many gleefully anticipate the death of Christianity, not realizing that what humanity uses to fill the vacuum that is left behind from Christianity's expulsion may far surpass the crimes associated with Christian empires. It is the equivalent of a patient discarding with his medication, because a side effect of taking it is nausea, but then not realizing that such medication is the only thing keeping him alive. We need knowledgeable voices, like that of Mr. Holland, to act as countervailing force against this cultural suicide.

[@crockmans1386]

The death of christianity is a done thing, it died on the fields of Verdun 1916 with much horror and even use of mustard gas.
Islam is still fighting strong, as they havent had their Renaissance moment yet.
Fact is, you cant go back. We have science now. It wont go away. And science is NOT a new religion. It is a means, a way to investigate interesting complex ideas or problems and it is a way to expose and uncover old beliefs and pure BS.

[@crockmans1386]

Science is the only belief system ever .... that says : we dont know.
A system that doesnt feed you BS.

[@jonathanherapath7735]

I admired the thesis of Dominion immensely, and I love listening to Tom Holland speaking. However, he is on really shaky ground in his claim that the 'culture wars' are a civil war within Christianity. There might be a case that ID politics is what happens when Protestant individualism is taken to its unchecked extreme end point?? Louise is right ID politics/wokery is a distorted form of Christianity. But then it could be argued that Protestantism itself, in its individualism, has this distortion built into it and thus is itself ultimately a distortion of Christianity. After all, Protestantism (or at least the greater parts of it) seems very comfortable with modernity and secularisation. Pope Benedict, as Cardinal Ratzinger) has written extensively about why Modernism and Secularism are not Christian. PS I am almost certain that Tom Holland has described ID politics as a distortion of Christianity own other interviews I've heard.

[@WH-hi5ew]

If you are a conservative Christian then you are very much going to see ID politics/woke values as a distorted form of Christianity. I personally dont think TH is on shaky ground referring to the culture war as a civil war in Christianity. (a) Because both sides knowingly or unknowingly are heavily influenced by Christianity - even if the woke/progressive side might perhaps dispute this. (b) The woke culture/war is very much a Western project... to this extent I think its firmly on the same spectrum as Catholicism - Protestantism - Woke Values. It's a playing out of something. It's no surprise that Woke values dont come out of rural Afghanistan. At each stop on the train line some people want to get off but I'd argue it's the same historical train set in motion by Christian values, institutions etc.

[@missanne2908]

The problem is there are no explicit teachings about abortion, either in the Old or New Testament, and there are other scriptures that point to the belief that a fetus is not the same as a person. In Matthew 5:17-20 Jesus teaches that we should follow the law completely. The law is contained in the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. Let’s look at two passages of the Pentateuch. Exodus 21:22-25 is concerned with a pregnant woman who has been hurt by a man. If she suffers a miscarriage, but she herself is unhurt, then a fine is levied against her attacker. But if she is hurt, then the punishment is ‘life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, etc. Numbers 5:11-31 describes what is to happen when a man suspects his wife is unfaithful but has no proof. He must make a cereal offering, then the priest makes a mixture of holy water and ash from the floor of the tabernacle and gives it to the woman to drink. What occurs next to a guilty woman sounds nonsensical because most Bible versions use euphemisms. However, in the New International Version it plainly says that the woman will miscarry. I’m not using these verses to justify abortion - I’m not a Christian and have no skin in the game. However, I have read the entire Bible, and know that the Biblical teaching against abortion is not as unequivocal as you say it is.

[@WH-hi5ew]

It's certainly true that ID politics is different from traditional Christianity. Tom Hollands point (and indeed others such as Joseph Henrich) is that you dont get to woke values without the Christian foundation first. Henrich would talk about WEIRD values (Western, Educated, Individualistic, Rich, Democratic) that was formed in Western Europe gradually since arrival of Roman Church in 6th Century... through to the Reformation (as continuation of the same trends) and now into Woke values (Tom Hollands 'New Reformation'). Yes you are right Protestantism grows out of modernity in the West... but modernity is itself brought about by the many hundreds of years of Roman Catholic Church - specifically argues Henrich changes the Church made to marital and inheritance law - which over many centuries brought about the modern world, its institutions and psychology.

[@jonathanherapath7735]

@@WH-hi5ew I don't know Joseph Henrich's book but will take a look, he sounds interesting. I didn't say that Protestantism grew out of modernism but that it was comfortable with it. And that I think is at least partly because modernity itself emerges from Protestantism. I agree of course that Holland's point is that you don't get to woke values without the Christian foundation first, he's made that point quite often. It doesn't curtail the argument that they are also a distortion of Christian moral values. And again that has happened because Protestantism once secularised, along with the growth of liberalism, inevitably leads to hyper-individualism, subjectivism and the impasse of tolerance.

[@WH-hi5ew]

@@jonathanherapath7735 Yes definitely recommend Joseph Henrich's book "The WEIRDest People in the World; How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous" (2020). Very well written and researched, thought provoking and eye opening stuff. Helped me understand my own Western culture and how we got here in a way I hadn't seen before.

[@4evaavfc]

I prefer traditional Christianity. No abortion, same sex marriage or senior female priests. Simple.

[@susie4045]

I do too. And II’m anti Christian.

[@anthonycostello6055]

This Reformation is a "lot less violent" because of the first one!

[@Jules-Was-a-Liberal]

Religion is basically just like "phenotype" or something, seems like an artifact that we still call it "religion". I feel like, that already explains everything we're talking abt here. LP and TH are good, I just keep thinking they're maybe in the wrong academic field, lol.

[@cherylschalk9106]

An artifact which produced a civilization in which you can flourish as a child of gif. No other system gives you that. Wim

[@Jules-Was-a-Liberal]

@@cherylschalk9106 Yeah that's solid, I mean, it reminds me again of this recent UnHerd discussion: that's still a PRAGMATIC argument for a SOCIAL system, if there's rly that much utility in retaining the rituals, I'm not over here telling ppl they can't go to their Christian rock concerts or whatever. (And megachurches on Sundays). Um...do you like Creed?

[@hrvad]

I love him, I truly do. But he's missing a crucial piece of the puzzle that James Lindsay has laid.
Yes, this new "reformation" is theological in nature, but it is NOT an intra-Christian issue, not even in the mellow sense he means it.
What he's missing is knowledge of gnosticism, Hermeticism, alchemy and theosophy. These are competing, highly syncretic cult religions. Yes, they say something that SOUNDS Christian, but let me describe the gnostic car: "it's s vehicle for transportation that gets you places really fast, and the car consists of a chassis, three round tires, and a triangular tire".
The truth is always married to a lie with these people. That's the danger, and that's the truly Satanic aspect of it.
Hegel, Marx, Hitler, the Communists ... All of them have roots in gnosticism. I was personally indoctrinated into gnosticism back in the 1990s, and when my transformation was done, I called myself a Socialist and talked about Marx all the time.
Please find James Lindsay and get the details on this. It's crucial to this issue.

[@JustMe-zk9dc]

Tom doesn’t understand alot about MLK
He was against the Vietnam War. Many whites & blacks saw that war was against an anti-Christian force. So the Vietnam War was a just war.
MLK wanted reparations for slavery. Many whites defiantly against that. They thought freeing the slaves in the 19th cent was enough.
Do more reading Tom.

[@michaels4255]

MLK was also an atheist and a Communist, although he did not publicize these facts, nor did the media.

[@user-km3mp7fe1h]

This is just the Old Serpents game of ambiguity......playing semantic games ... Orwellian doubetalk. Let's just dissolve all the categories and call it Christianity.
This is just the Serpent's Whisper..........😮

[@bryanutility9609]

Actually he’s just right & totally nails it. Hitler is the devil in modern mythology. That’s your religion even if you don’t know it.

[@mattspintosmith5285]

Of course music is pivotal. Singers became our philosophers in the Anglo-American sphere from the 60s. Lennon's Imagine is a manifesto - a challenge (not saying I agree with it).

[@michaels4255]

A Communist manifesto (no hyperbole).

[@timothyagner9015]

So many people think they know the outcome of the Church, so many more through the centuries have made guesses at where the Church would be. But inevitably they all die and are proven wrong, as all of them will continue to do until Christ returns and reunites with his Bride

[@James-wy6qu]

The moral becoming of Christian values into the new material worlds that we find ourselves in is not necessarily a repudiation of Christianity. It's a materialisation of it in the most literal sense.
It reminds me of the way that Marxism and socialism could be viewed as the development and fulfilment of Christian liberalism, precisely in its critique of that culture.
I'm also not sure exactly what LP means when she talks about the new heresy)orthodoxy. It's not clear to me that 'wokeness' is hegemonic or even distinct or definable. I think people overestimate it as a moral and cultural entity in these conversations. It's nowhere near as clear or dominant as neoliberalism, for instance (although you could make a good case that it's a cultural oFfshoot of this).

[@michaels4255]

There is no "Christian liberalism." Liberalism was primarily a creation of Deists and closeted atheists and also some confessors of a watered down version of Christianity, such as John Locke who considered the Holy Trinity to be an optional doctrine rather than a core tenet of the faith. Marxism is a variant of atheism. Atheism is central to it because it is rooted in a materialist (naturalistic, mechanistic) view of reality. So no, atheism is not just another version of Christianity. Neither is Deism or Judaism.

[@Phlebas9202]

Did I get here before Pastor Paul?

[@jamessgian7691]

On Christian Heresy:
“The birth and death of every heresy has been essentially the same. An unbalanced Catholic or Christian takes one idea out of a thousandfold throng of Catholic ideas, and announces he cares for that Catholic idea more than for Catholicism. He takes it away with him into the wilderness, where the idea becomes an image and the image an idol. Then, after a century or two, he suddenly wakes up and discovers that the idol is an idol; and shortly after that, that the wilderness is a wilderness. If he is a wise man, he calls himself a fool and returns to the balance of the thousandfold throng of ideas in Catholicism. If not, he calls himself a progressive who has outgrown the worship of idols, and he looks around at the wilderness, and says, “I see no limit to it at all.” - Chesterton
Tom is praising all the heresies as “Christian” which is true if we say, “Somewhere in the Christian vision, these ideas can be found.” But they are only found without the balance of the whole scheme of Orthodox Christianity, which supplies not only the depth charges, but the stabilization mechanisms like earthquake-proofing the buildings before you release the charges. Tom doesn’t see the chaos that comes from the heresies taking one or two things out without the other portions which counteract the dangers inherent in the idea running wild on its own. There is no New Christianity, only new heresies.
Please read The Thing and Heretics and Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man. All by the one who saw all of this coming just as he saw Hitler coming and the consequences of that thinking.
Also, Transubstantiation is literally true. If you need a more “scientific” explanation because the spell of materialism still has its effects on you, here is an analogy using computer programming.
A programmer makes a video game world. Every idea the programmer has must have two components to be a part of the game. It must have coding tied to a certain image and limiting motions, etc. and the pixillated avatar of that coding. Without BOTH of these, it would not function or exist in the game. The code is the form of the pixels is equal to Aquinas’ “the soul is the form of the body”. The essence or idea of the thing is tied to the substance or pixels of the thing in the game. This is how the Christian metaphysics works where the idea and essence of a thing in the Mind of God rather than the computer game programmer gets imputed/tied with the material world.
So, God is the programmer of the world. He gives a very special code to the avatar form of Jesus Christ and when the Human Body form of the 2nd Person of the Trinity was alive on earth, the code was tied to that form. A different coding or essence was given to the material form of bread when made. And God made a cheat code, and when Christ says the words of Transubstantiation at The Last Supper, and when priests say it thereafter, the cheat code is effective and the coding of the Body of Christ gets tied to the bread.
Instead of “God Body code is only Jesus’ Body” the code says, “When these words are spoken, the Bread will take on the God Body code even as the pixel still looks like bread. The “substance does not appear to change, but the essence is the Body of Christ.”
Just imagine there is bread in the game World of Warcraft and it is just bread and you can eat if for normally giving your avatar a bit of energy, BUT, if a priest in the game came along and blessed the bread, it would give different effects than the mere energy the bread provided before. It would offer grace to you, transforming your spirit into the spirit of Christ.

[@markrichter2053]

Very well explained. That’s a prefect description for anyone disposed to believe in the supernatural. And, to be honest, I really don’t see why Protestant believes make such a fuss about transubstantiation. It’s no more difficult to believe or understand than the virgin birth or the Resurrection.
All these things are a matter of faith. You either believe in the supernatural, in which case anything is possible, or you don’t. I I don’t anymore, which, I have to say is making life a lot less complicated for me. But I do however respect those who believe, so long as they recognise that unbelievers also have very good reasons too.

[@michaels4255]

The thing is, to be a heresy you must be at least superficially Christian. These modern left wing movements don't pass that test. They are anti - Christian in varying degrees, and their values derive from Enlightenment Deism and democracy, not from the holy scriptures or the church fathers.

[@PeterM8987]

Good luck with that, Tom. I hope it works out for you under a cliphate

[@Neal_Daedalus]

22:00 I think Dr. Holland is skirting moral relativism here and he knows it

[@bigkanuna]

Alister Crowley was an occultist member of the male only OTO. Some women think the occult gives them power. Charles Manson was a warlock in the OTO. Witches' serve warlocks, simps serve witches.

[@michaels4255]

Don't you know groups like the OTO and LeVay's Church of Satan are just new Christian movements? (I am being sarcastic, but no more absurd than Holland and others before him who have advanced the same argument). By the way, L. Ron Hubbard was also a member of OTO, and his Scientolgy cult is modeled closely on OTO except that it replaces magick with psychotherapy and science fiction. Two very lucrative scams.

[@charlesbrown1365]

Not naming an age at first reminds of Hegel on the Owl of Minerva .
In the preface to the Philosophy of Right, Hegel compares the philosopher's work to the flight of the owl of Minerva: just as the latter begins only with the fall of dusk, so too is philosophy bound to 'come on the scene' too late to teach 'what the world ought to be

[@BruisedReedofTas]

Tom, in regard to your statement that the civil rights movement represents the last great Christian political reform movement, where would you place the dissolution of apartheid and the Solidarity movement? In your mind were they chapters of the civil rights movement (hard to see for Solidarity, but I guess arguable for the anti-apartheid campaign) or separate things but not great Christian political reform movements?

[@dariuszgaat5771]

Solidarity was very strong catholic.

[@michaels4255]

Not withstanding the use of Christian rhetoric, the egalitarian values undergirding the civil rights movement have their origin in the Enlightenment and democracy, neither of which is Christian in origin.

[@dariuszgaat5771]

@@michaels4255 The Enlightenment only happened within the Christian civilization, so it's total nonsense.

[@michaels4255]

@@dariuszgaat5771 And Christianity developed within the context of pagan civilization. Does that mean Christianity is really paganism? National Socialism developed only within the context of liberal democracy. Does that mean Naziism was really liberal democracy, or the natural outgrowth of liberal democracy? Your reply is illogical, I would even say silly, because you can't show any logical path from Christianity to the heavily anti-Christian Enlightenment. You can't even show shared ideas between the two movements. Things that post Enlightenment culture sometimes attributes to Christian influence such as equality, tolerance and democracy were in fact contrary to the Christian tradition which emphasized obedience to hierarchical authority, was not tolerant, and dismissed democracy has fit only for polytheists. The divine right of kings is a Christian ideal, and the opposite of the Enlightenment's demand for representative government. I hardly need to mention Christian attitudes toward Sodomy, or the subordination of women to male authority, and as late as the 20th century the Pope was still teaching that slavery per se was not inherently wrong until JP2, more sensitive to the zeitgeist, belatedly reversed course. So there is neither common ideological content nor a logical connection of some kind, merely a shared geography, between these two competing worldviews.

[@dariuszgaat5771]

@@michaels4255 What the hell are you talking about?! Of course, one can easily chart an intellectual path from Christianity to the Enlightenment. First of all, Enlightenment philosophers, even if they did not like Christianity, were strongly influenced by its ideas. They were humanists, and humanism developed on Christian grounds. Only. For example, the idea of ​​human rights, despite its claims to universality, has no equivalent outside the Christian world. Democracy does not "fit" into a polytheistic world, democracy was not at all common or respected in the ancient pre-Christian world, nor was it a system similar to modern democracy. The subordination of women to men was absolutely common in all civilizations, and in non-Christian civilizations it was much more troublesome than in Christian civilization. In fact, in Christian Europe, women already enjoyed high social status in the Middle Ages compared to the Islamic world, India or China. Virtually none of what you wrote is true. Did you even listen to what Mr. Holland was saying?

[@859902]

2 other important aspects of the 'new religion' were not mentioned in this section of their discussion: environmentalism and antinatalism. These are arguably much less linked to any version of Christianity, especially the latter!

[@skylinefever]

I see antinatalism as someone saying "I never asked to be born" and taking that thought down the rabbit hole.

[@michaels4255]

@@skylinefever Many of them do not want other people being born either.

[@skylinefever]

@@michaels4255 Well, how do they express that want?
I just suggest everybody consider their own kids.

[@michaels4255]

@@skylinefever They express it by advocating our government copy Communist China's one child policy which they think is wonderful, or by arguing for parental licensing. Others want to put more and more rural land off limits to human settlement and push as many people as possible into "high density" urban centers to "save the planet."

[@sarawoods1450]

As for the demise a Christianity read the book The Lost History of Christianity by Historian Philip Jenkins. The thousand year golden age of the church in the Middle East, Africa and Asia and how it died. However, recently it is making a comeback more practicing Christians in these areas than the West.

[@draoi99]

26:14 It's a strange fact that the first man made object in space (crossing the Kármán line) was a German V2 rocket built using slave labour.

[@PilgrimMission]

The first reformation was a return to Biblical teaching. This present change is not a reformation , it is a turning away from the teachings of the Bible. It is an Apostasy not a reformation.

[@johnwheeler3071]

Well said!
What would a so called third 'reformation' look like. Christianity would be unrecognisable. Definitely a slippery slope.

[@michaels4255]

So obviously, and many of the new movement's participants would readily agree. To call a reaction against Christianity a new version of Christianity is an absurdity, although it is not an absurdity that Holland himself invented. I have usually encountered this argument among some activists on the far right who dislike Christianity for reasons of their own and have been making this argument for decades. I suspect this line of thought begins with Nietzsche, even though Nietzsche himself is too much of an individualist to be described as right wing.

[@morthim]

'i don't hear anyone saying that the old and disadvantaged should be gotten rid of because they are old or weak'
then you need to learn to listen.

[@mildajasaite871]

Bodily autonomy might be a very Christian principle, but it doesn't start after sexual intercourse and it ups to individual to uphold it. Christian teachings instructs how exactly that is done. People claiming to support abortion because of respect to ones bodily autonomy had no issue throwing that same autonomy out the window during pandemic. Because it's not the use of Christian truth, but rather abuse of it for the sake of accomodating comfort of escaping personal responsibility. To put it simply, abortion supporters today is trying to use Christian reasoning for exact same thing done by Nazis - sterilising environment from undesiribles, mostly sick and poor.

[@grannyannie2948]

Well said. And they are confusing bodily autonomy with free will which is not the same thing

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

For the record, I am pro-choice (but a 'safe, legal and rare' moderate) and was also against the dumb COVID lockdowns.

[@grannyannie2948]

@@marlonmoncrieffe0728 I see. I'm Australian and there are no abortions in my state. Its perfectly legal but no doctor in the state can bring themselves to perform them. And that kind of sums up many peoples opinion really.
We are ofcourse famous for lockdowns. But that was Victoria, our California. My state closed the international border and quarantined the state border and eliminated the disease. Schools closed briefly in March 2020, but we quickly realised kids weren't at risk. No masks until right at the end and never outdoors and never children. We didn't really have lockdowns. Just nonsense like you were safe to sit in a pub and drink, but standing up to drink was dangerous.
It was the 💉 that was cruel and unfair. Due to strict mandates to work.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Admittedly, I was pro-vaccine but never pro-mandate (just as I was never pro-lockdown), @@grannyannie2948 .
P.S. Which state of Australia is the most geographically beautiful?

[@michaels4255]

I think "bodily autonomy" is an extremely modern issue! I don't remember any discourses on this topic from any of my readings in ancient or medieval sources. I haven't read everything by any means, but if you are aware of any pre - Enlightenment sources that discusses "bodily autonomy," then please cite a source! I think this is an exercise in anachronicity.

[@jin8982]

Louise, are you willing to talk to Janice Fiamengo?

[@bensanderson7144]

It’s possible, but doubtful. Louise isn’t really interested in antifeminism or men’s rights. It may sound odd, but Louise is actually a feminist, but it’s a strain of feminism that only a librarian would have heard of. Britain did have women who were highly nationalist, wanted men to be strong and courageous, and wanted women to have lots of babies and rule the home. This is what Louise wants. She wants women to reclaim the control of sex, and to use it wisely, to the benefit of women, and to the nation at large. And she wants it to be a feminist act. This does have some purchase in Britain, and it just may gain traction in the future, should the share of the British population that is foreign rise, and should Britain grow poorer as time goes on. My point is, Louise’ feminism is almost entirely British; it could never take off in Canada.

[@jin8982]

​@@bensanderson7144Janice reveals the fraud in the feminist movement tho. This is necessary to talk I think, though yeah I don't think Louise is brave enough to confront that.
Feminists being seen as heroes is still important for her no matter what. Or that's what it seems like.

[@virginiacharlotte7007]

@@jin8982the Occult Feminist author, Rachel Wilson, is also interesting. She digs into the nefarious origins of the leaders of the feminist movement/s. ATM, James Lindsay is the most correct, to my mind, about the gnostic origins of feminism, communism and queer theory.

[@grannyannie2948]

I do believe they've spoken but I may be confusing Louise with someone else

[@jin8982]

​@@virginiacharlotte7007yeah, I'd love to see Louise talk with her too, but I don't think that'll happen

[@mattspintosmith5285]

Regarding "NE Asian countries", Christians are the largest religious group in South Korea.

[@rickdruidaa]

You in Slough?

[@allanrogers865]

So, we're all limited in our ideas by the very water we swim in etc. Nobody can see their own face, not without a mirror etc. I cannot disagree with any of this, obviously. But, Tom seems to behave as though he's managed to avoid this paradox completely. Why does he not at least consider that his own modern intellectual background limits him, which it clearly does. Thank you Louise.

[@mfjflower]

what about 'Steve Bannon'?