Where Does Religion Come From? Religion for Breakfast (Ep. #25)
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- čas přidán 2. 07. 2024
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- VIDEO NOTES
Andrew Mark Henry is a scholar of religion specialising in early Christianity and the religions of the late Roman Empire. He is also the host of "Religion for Breakfast", a CZcams channel with over 600,000 subscribers producing informative videos on a variety of topics related to religion.
Dr. Henry joins host Alex O'Connor to discuss a number of questions: what is religion? Where does it come from? Why is it so ubiquitous?
- LINKS
Religion for Breakfast: @ReligionForBreakfast
Andrew Mark Henry on Twitter: / andrewmarkhenry
Sheldon Solomon on Terror Management Theory (the basis for the examples provided in this episode): • Humanity at the Crossr...
More on Terror Management Theory: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_...
- TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Introduction
1:51 What is religion?
19:15 Can we do without religion?
29:15 Why religions demand personal sacrifice
42:52 Where does religion come from?
47:04 Is religion just death anxiety?
58:33 Is religion a result of danger and war?
1:06:05 Does explaining religious belief undermine faith?
1:10:37 Outro
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Please interview Douglas Hedley please please #comment2
I think your pessimism about what purpose religion serves ignores the possibility that religion may be parasitising upon the supposed cultural bastions you say might be holding society together, rather than being the foundations of those bastions. For instance - our tendency to regard unjustified killing might be claimed by Christians to emanate from Christian Commandments, but is it really? Did people really go around murdering with abandon before Christianity, and did we stop once we became Christianised? I think not. Christianity especially has a reputation for laying claim to foundational cultural attitudes that it has in fact been totally oblivious to or has actively opposed in the past.
So religion may be simply one instantiation of 'cultural regulation', rather than the only instantiation of it. Or, if religion is simply the act of imposing regulation upon society, then would it even make sense to say that religion can decline, let alone is declining? It may be that what we're actually saying by 'religion is declining in the west, then, would be simply that one instantiation of religion is declining, not that, as intrinsically religious beings, we are losing that behavioural trait.
edit.
Maybe it's the case that it wasn't actually that pretty fence that was keeping the rats out.
Maybe it was the ditch that was dug in order to provide enough earth to construct the rampart upon which the fence was built that has been keeping the rats out. And maybe there are no rats at all - maybe whoever wanted to build the fence in the first place needed to make an excuse for building it that was good enough to scare people into letting him build it...
I'm not entirely sure your reference to Zizek is actually saying what you think it is saying.
He starts by talking about coke -
"It is the mysterious and elusive X we are all after in our compulsive consumption. The unexpected result of this is not that, since Coke doesn't satisfy any concrete need we drink it only as supplement, after some other drink has satisfied our substantial need - it is rather this very superfluous character that makes our thirst for Coke all the more insatiable. Coke has the paradoxical quality that the more you drink it, the more you get thirsty. So, when the slogan for Coke was “Coke is it!”, we should see in it some ambiguity - it's “it” precisely insofar as it's never IT, precisely insofar as every consumption opens up the desire for more."
Then notes that when we're drinking diet coke, "All that remains is pure semblance, an artificial promise of a substance which never materialized. Is it not that in the case of caffeine-free diet Coke that we almost literally drink nothing in the guise of something?"
So far from being a condemnation of the idea of atheist churches, it is in fact an endorsement of them, in the sense that it is fulfilling our subconscious desire 'for the thing', while not actually involving the consumption of the active ingredients harmful to us - ie the sugary religious morality. If we HAVE to drink the coke, because it's in our nature, then surely drinking the diet coke, is a way of getting 'IT' in a less harmful way.
Get Peter Hitchens on if you aren't a coward. Your cropped video gave him no right of reply. Even Christopher would be ashamed of you for that.
@@HoratioKJV
Peter Hitchens is a conspiracy theorist fool who has nothing valid to say about anything.
And I think you are being harsh on Alex for the wrong reasons here. If you watch the actual conversation, you'll see that the Religion for Breakfast guy more or less agreed with everything Alex said. The real reason for objecting to this clip is that it didn't really showcase his guest at all. It's kinda like he enjoyed his own input a little too much...
One of the best books Ive read on the subject is Religion Explained by Pascal Boyer. He’s not an apologist, a philosopher, or a historian, he’s an anthropologist.
I’ve kept wondering why I never hear Pascal Boyer’s book mentioned on this channel. When I studied History of Religion 2 books kept getting mentioned by students and professors alike (even though they weren’t on the curriculum); Religion Explained was one of them, and the other was “What is Religion?” by Jeppe Sinding. Happy to see Pascal Boyer getting some love. His book deserves a lot more attention!
I thought he is an evolutionary psychologist
Audiobooks?
@@arusirham3761 Lmao. The same goes to Ludwig Feuerbach, this is even my first time seeing Alex discuss Religion from a kind of evolutionary and anthropological perspective though he sometimes mentioned it, I’ve never truly seen a video of him doing something like: “How evolution make us believe in God(s)” that kind of theme. Pascal Boyer book really is a good pick for the study of religion, as well as Feuerbach “The Essence of Christianity” I recommend it.
Check out "Big Gods" by Ara Norenzyan
I've never related to being excited when 2 creators collab but this one got me.
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
Have a look at: "e risale english" Just write it in a search box, pops up at the top of your search. Amazing piece of work. It will give you the true answers.
@@Bluewolf- Respectfully, I often wonder if there is any such thing as the "true answers". But I'll check it out.
Dare i compare it to mutual masturbation. Dry joke. It burns. Lol...
Seriously, Jung and Freud like deep and meaningful for a while up until when Sigmund ceased to learn and before Victor Frankl wrote last chapters by gaining education where few could. Meaning matters.
When you mentioned sunk costs, and how that can affect one’s ability to even consider leaving a group/religion, that hit really close to home. My parents are devout Christians, and have done everything in their power to raise me and my sisters as such. They homeschooled us, brought us to church at LEAST twice a week our whole lives, had personal devotions with us every day, etc. etc. I’ve recently denounced my faith. You can imagine how that went over, and how it made them feel. My mother disclosed to me that she would’ve divorced my dad had it not been for Christianity. Talk about sunk costs. Not to mention all of the money, time, and sacrifice they’ve put into buying homeschool curriculum, going to church, praying, Bible reading, donating to missions, paying for Christian extracurriculars, summer camps, entertainment… Christianity has been their life. MY life. For me to denounce it feels like an insult to their being, and a waste of their sacrifice. For someone like my parents, leaving the faith at this point would essentially be admitting their life, or at least their resources, have been mostly “wasted.” What a horrible reality. They were so happy before I left the faith. I feel awful. :((
I like your honesty and indeed it must have been difficult when you left Christianity. Are you still on good terms with your parents?
I'm a Christian believer and yet I sometimes feel like I've "wasted" my life.
Do you still believe in God, just not the god of Christianity?
Hope you don't mind my questions. If too personal, just let me know.
Respectfully...
You shouldn’t feel awful in the least. Your parents chose to treat you as an investment rather than an individual. They took a risk, it is not in a n’y way your duty or job to make food on their risky investment. You saw through their faulty ideology after being indoctrinated in it, that is astonishing and you should be very proud!
On a personal note, my partner was raised in an independent fundamentalist baptist church like the guy was talking about at the beginning, 40-50 person totalitarian church. He never believed the religious aspect, and knew he was gay very early on, but was mostly cut off from secular culture up through high school, even despite living only a short train ride from NYC. He was Christian homeschooled, went to a Christian high school, Christian sports, Christian EVERYTHING. He disowned his parents when he was 19 or 20, and has never looked back. They are dead to him. His freakish mother still desperately tries to manipulate him, sends him things, finds out addresses. It’s gross. That kind of religiosity is really a disorder. Your parents treated you as an investment, not a person…it’s so…primitive. You should be very proud of yourself for seeing through that. The pain of separation is very real and it has made my partners life harder, but he would not change it for anything. We’ve been together happily for ten years. Make your own family, find some Unitarians, they are wonderful communities. Do not hate yourself. You are not an investment, you are a full human being worthy of respect.
@@baizhanghuaihai2298 Hi, I appreciate your comment! Sounds like your partner went through a lot :( Yes, I do consider myself fortunate to have escaped… it took about a year of trying to reconcile what I was thinking, many tears, and much frustration and fear. My parents are honestly some of the best people I know, they are very generous and loving… they themselves fell prey to indoctrination from a young age. My mom almost fell from the faith when she was my age, but her parents essentially convinced her not to. I think that Terror Management Theory plays a huge role in religion, and I can DEFINITELY see it working in my mom’s case. They have treated me as an individual for the most part, but also considered me a “gift” that they have stewardship over… yes, investment might also be a good word to use, I think.
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Hi, I’m on very good terms with them! Things have just changed a bit… there’s a tension there that was previously inexistent. My family is very close. Yes, it is easy to feel that way I think, about wasting one’s life Christian or not. Time seems to pass so quickly, and oftentimes we don’t use our resources and time as we should. I do feel as though it is more horrifying for the non believer though, since they have no hope of living eternally/having another chance to live well in an afterlife. Also, no, I do not believe in any god. It is scary but what I believe to be the case
@@oliviadawes3345 Stay strong, you’re clearly an awesome person, and it’s lucky (mostly for them!) that they haven’t disowned you…maybe you all will come to a reasonable place with it, I sure hope so! Not all indoctrinated Christian’s are ghastly, and I do bet your parents are kind and loving people☺ (My partner’s parents happen to be abusive and manipulative, so…it’s a different situation in that way🤷)
Starting off strong! I'm a huge fan of religion for breakfast, glad to see you two collaborating.
I'm not familiar with "religion for breakfast" but I really like this discussion. Let's start off strong and finish strong ! Can I do it ?
@johnbrzykcy3076 you should really go check their channel out, it's what got me interested in Christian history/theology/apologetics in the first place.
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
That point of a 'we're all in this together' plays so well with groupthink. Between both of those, people grow a certain loyalty towards the community they relate most to and spend the most time with.
Tribalism
I find his discussion highly educational and informative even as a devout Christian. Wish there was more of this on YT
I have to say, as a heavy consumer of this genre of CZcams videos, there is a lot out there. There are plenty of thoughtful and reasonable academic conversations to enjoy. But beware, too much contemplation can lead you away from the unalterable word of god
On the contrary to the comment above me, I gotta say that contemplating too much just makes you understand religion better, and if you tie it to the factual and beautiful history of the world, you may eventually leave the concept of "God" altogether.
And that's okay, did you know that the hardest part of leaving religion is the discrimination you'll face by your people? The hate, lack of love and lack of forgiveness can be shocking.
But, after that, you are free. You become more responsible and empathetic, maybe a little cynical if you focus on the apparent void religion leaved behind.
My deconversion was a tough, long process, that not only made me a better person, it sparked all what I've missed all my life. (If you wonder the things I've missed is not addictions nor "mundane" activities, but a deeper connection to the world and the people)
@@viekent the idea that too much education is bad for religion does nothing to help the notion that it is a nefarious construct.
@@jhart1127 no it's when education becomes brainwashing by atheists. that's the problem, when they introduce their bias into education.
@@aa-to6wswith all due respect, that's an entirely subjective experience. Mine was opposite to yours. I began researching as an atheist mind, but through philosophical teachings, maturity of the "soul" and life experience, I've become rather religious.
And contrary to yours, my family was and is deeply religious, but they never shunned or judged me. I might just have good family around me. In this case, yours might be not so good. Or it could be something else.
Anyway, if in doubt, I reccomend Michael Sugrue and his beautiful lectures on philosophy which are free on youtube.
It might be weird to say but with age, I've come to the conclusion of God existing through rationality and common sense.
But again, it's a subjective experience...
As a catholic convert, I’ve found that more progressive Christian’s often advertise their faith as ‘Christianity without the laws/sacrifice/“judgement”’
However their denominations tend to lose followers quicker, whereas the stricter the denomination, the more sacrifice it demands, the more it seems desirable to people.
Oliver! Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
I'm a Catholic and I've noticed something along the same lines. Hardliner traditionalists and the anti-Pope Francis types (EWTN, Taylor Marshall, Church Militant, Viganó, Pavone etc.) attract a much larger following than softer, neutral/liberal types (Jim Martin or America media).
In the political sphere too, Trump, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Tate, have stronger cult-like followings than any comparable figure in the center or left. These followings are based more on feelings and identity rather than policy or data. (The exception I would make is some fringe woke identity groups that can be very imposing.)
That depends on what you mean by or how you define a Christian does it not?
I 'desirable' the right word? If you already believe, then the stricter, more socially all encompassing a religion is, the higher the cost of leaving.
In troubled times, people look for a crutch to guide them through. A dogmatic strict religion provides a better crutch than one which asks you to make up your own mind and think for yourself.
@@psiberti think it goes both ways. If you're looking for a judgement free lifestyle with no rules why not just go without a religion?
It seems that one of the things people are seeking from religions is guidance and instruction so the less specific those things are the less desirable they might be to a potential believer.
I find the whole concept of people becoming more religious after being reminded of death to be very fascinating. But my personal experience was the exact opposite. Going through the experience of having aggressive stage 4 cancer that left me with “not long” to live, then surviving but still living with the ever-present possibility of recurrence due to the nature and aggressiveness of my cancer, is actually what caused me to LOSE my lifelong faith and become an atheist. So, I guess I’m an outlier? 😂
Thanks for your honesty. I had stage 3 colon/rectal cancer and then lung cancer. The weird thing is I never thought much about death until I had the cancer. Actually, I guess it's not weird.
I didn't become more "religious" but I actually started to read more books by Christian scholars and I also began to have doubts regarding Jesus' identity. I also became cognizant of the apparent hiddeness of God.
But I still believe Jesus was the Son of God.
Do you mind if I ask, what feelings did you have during the cancer that caused you to lose your faith? Don't worry, I'm not on here to judge.
Peace
@@johnbrzykcy3076 I don’t really mind answering. It’s actually something I enjoy sharing. But it’s a bit too long of a story to share here. And really, the biggest factors in losing my faith completely came after I went into remission. One of the biggies was with everyone around me saying things like, “God is so good for healing you! He obviously loves you so much!” That seemed rather ad hoc. Like, does he NOT love all the people who died of the very same thing I had before amazing treatments were recently developed? I thought about that and sought answers from many places, but found nothing convincing. And again, there’s a lot more I could say.
You also mention hiddenness. That was a HUGE factor for me.
Wow, you do seem to be an outlier but I can see how an initial resentment could be the catalyst for deconversion; how could a loving god do this to me, one begins to see the inconsistencies and contradictions, yada yada yada. Was that true for you?
Is they point out, religiosity increases even among atheists. For me, being actively suicidal after getting a bad job helped me understand that what seemed to work for my parents and grandparents did not work for me. That means that I was looking for it to work, I cared if it did work or not, that's what they mean by increasing religiosity, that we tend to take these things more seriously.
Hi Ale!!
I love your new podcast. I think it is so far one of the best podcasts. Your guests and your questions are always interesting and insightful! Really love the direction the channel is taking.
Facts^
I really enjoy these topics you are presenting to us. After all everywhere else when you see debates and talks on religion in the end it always comes down to the same few arguments over and over again. Having something fresh and new as input for me to think about is awesome. Thank you Alex!
Thomas! Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
2 of my favorite content creators rocking out together... like a rock and roll supergroup... if we could just get Drew from Genetically Modified Skeptic and Filip Holm from Let's Talk Religion and it would be awesome lol
No idea how they would wrangle such a thing or what they would discuss but I'm here for it lol
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
Interestingly, student clubs (sororities) that have strict entry rituals have members that report a greater sense of community and rate the sorority higher than student clubs with easier entry rituals.
Does this surprise you? Some people are so empty they need exclusivity as validation, and the more "special" or exclusive, the more these empty people feel like they are special.
It's called "sunk cost"- If I just GIVE you $100 (or a car, or whatever thing), no cost, no obligation, you're far more likely to just blow the cash on frivolous nonsense, or maybe even give it away. As opposed to if you EARN the $100/car, where you're more likely to be careful with it.
It's why lotto winners are notorious for going broke, a year or two after the win. But it's relatively rare for people to blow their life savings in the same way.
If you can just get something for nothing, it CAN'T be worth much, can it? (Even it's identical to a thing that others work for, and cherish)
Facism.
Like the poster That Guy said around the same time as Barackus here (16 hours ago from this post), religious/in-group behaviors are geared towards protecting the comradery of shared experiences that they gain in that group. They are coding the group for protection, thinking a stranger is more dangerous than a person that is familiar with the group workings/rituals. Evolutionary perspectives are so eye-opening.
I think there is sunk cost. But there is also a self-selection bias.'
Once word gets out that the induction is unpleasant, than you're going to get more people applying who authentically desire what the group has to offer. It filters out the apathetic or self-deceiving.
thank you so much for this amazing interview! I found it very eye-opening and gave me the urge to educate myself more on terror management theory and the war-increases-religiosity hypothesis. Both are terrifically interesting!
I almost never comment on youtube videos but I had the need to come here and say that you guys made me literally cry with this. As a person who grew up in a Christian home, I recognize the feeling of leaving the religion and start asking difficult questions about the things you once believed so hard, I did this at the age of 15 and it hurts.
Every time someone asked me why I didn't believe in god or religion anymore I said this same thing "Believing in this topic is a way of dealing with the fact that we are going to die and this provides a way to not feeling devastated just thinking about the emptiness of being aware of our own existence and death" I didn't know this was a theory and that it was so deep. I started on the shorter version of this video and came here to watch the whole masterpiece.
thank you for talking about this, I can't describe how it feels to hear it. next step read the book "the denial of death" THANK YOU.
Allyou beings of the active sex go through a rebellious anti-all sorts of things phas betwen about 12 and 16, but they grow out of it, and it comes about in much the same way as puppies grow into their ears and paws, but with young men it is not just biology but becoming aware of how they cannot control their functions, particularly the emotional function to the mechanical(means choiceless)reactions of which only a grownup man can be indifferent. The young"*Care*, they simply cannot help it, but it's only a phase and they grow out of it. All young males or beings of the active sex seek attention and become confrontational as do all young male animals that must compete for mates; they want confrontation be it physical emotional or intellectual and they are still only beginning to become accustomed to their functions. I guess but do not know , having only caused results of the active sex, or had sons, that something similar happens with young beings of the passive sex. Human beings are very complicated machines with lots of functions- five or more, most of which operate automatically and mechanically and I wish I had been told about that when I was young. The older the get, the free_ er you get you learn not to care,*not* to give shit. In the words of the Maurice Chevalier song: " I'm glad I'm not young any more, but being 70+ and kicking your heels in death's waiting room is not that much fun either. The words of dear old Rimpoche whatever he was called at the beginning of Zeitgeist have a lot of sense in them; waiting to be dead.
It is all thst morality ethics bunkum that is the centre of gravity of religion and of course the young fall for that bullshit as water runs downhill- they as-is-said... *CAre*, big mistake....... *Huge*Of course *all* of politics is religion and the young fall for that bullshit similarly helplessly.As churchill put it: "If you are not a socialist by the ageof seventeen you have no heart, and if you are still a socialist (and of course socislism is a religion)at the age of fifty, you have no head.
Men(human beings) are three-brained(and lots more functioned) beings with two natures because that is what being means. It is not easy or comfortable being a man at any age and terribly difficult(with no end of *wholly unnecessary*suffering) when you are young. "Become yourself, then god and the devil don't matter", is easy to say, but anyone knows how it is actually done, do let me know.
The business of men( human beings) is to both become and *perfect* themselves- and perfect does not mean what you might imagine it means but rather to finish or accomplish, but that is not a matter for anyone under 40, so don't you concern yourself with that.
A man's god is that which is more important to him than anything else at any given moment, and generally to be found between the sternum and the knees, and is a matter of fact to be verified, not that dreadful weakness of men the is belief.
You pretty soon learn *the hard way* what is more important to you than anything else at any given moment, but it is not always one and the same thing or things, because*Nothing in a man or human being remains the same for more than a few moments
All that*mister* god* anthropomorphic nonsense is precisely that: Anthropomorphic nonsense.
Relion or all that good/evil, right/wrong, morality/ethics mumbo jumbo tends to stupefy and hypnotise men -*Particularly* when it takes the form of that form of religion that is called politics and there are any number of religions that men invent almost by the hourand starting with the current near official religion modernist, they ar Modernism, socialism wimminism homosexualism globalwarming/climate change_ism, and of course the biggest religion of them all *Scientism* -Oo la la the *passions tat are arouse by scientism whose acolytes are the most fervent of them all , and seemingly their mister god is a mister Evolution, which is of course complete nonsense.
Omg thank you! I love his channel! And now he is here with you! ❤❤❤
This was really eye opening and so informative! I love Religion for Breakfast. Never a dull time with this men on my screen!
Awesome episode! I've been watching the two of you for a couple years now and having y'all come together and talk about these topics was *chefs kiss*. Keep up the great work, Alex!
Sameee
Clark! Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
What a great collab!!
Such a rich, informative and thought-provoking discussion. Thank you both.
This was such a great interview! Thanks so much!
As an agnostic Christian I find this such a fascinating discussion without the reactionary language that talk of religion tends towards
Why do you suppose that you are - or are capable of being, a christian?
I found an important point was that religion is a fuzzy category. We see lots of examples of this in philosophy in general, and also in biology where species aren't necessarily clear-cut categories, but can fade from one to another without a clear difference (e.g. lions and tigers, or circle species around some barrier). Trouble is, people like discrete categories, because it makes decisions simpler and easier, so while it's more useful rationally and logically, it's hard to persuade folk (think of the kneejerk reaction to trans people who don't easily fit into binary categories). I also like the notion of using religion as an adjective - religious behaviour for example - then ticking off specific behaviours commonly associated with stereotypic religion to decide if something can be usefully regarded as religious or quasi-religious, or if it's purely secular.
As a side note, I am always vastly amused by the way creationists who deny evolution often try to deride acceptance of evolution as being a religion itself. If a science can be taken down a peg or two by being called a religion, what does it say about the value of the creationists' religion? The irony is always lost on them!
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
They mean that evolution is a pseudo-religion and not a genuine one. It can also be seen as ironic that those who reject religion end up creating secular pseudo-religions of their own.
@@fatamorgana909 Might I recommend finishing your high school education, so you can tell the difference between a religion and a science?
@@Leszek.Rzepecki I did that, and have a PhD as well. The idea of secular pseudo-religions has been put forward by many serious thinkers in various disciplines: George Steiner's 'Nostalgia for the Absolute', John Gray's 'Heresies', Eric Voegelin's 'Science, Politics and Gnosticism', David Noble's 'The Religion of Technology', and many others. Examples of secular pseudo-religions they refer to include Auguste Comte's Religion of Humanity, as well as the quasi-religious features of Marxism, Nazism, Transhumanism, and many others. Ludwig Feuerbach, a major influence on Freud, argued that humanity itself, rather than God, should be the object of worship. He said of his philosophy that ‘it takes the place of religion and has the essence of religion within itself. In truth, it is itself religion’.
@@fatamorgana909 Apparently not. Otherwise you'd simply admit that science is backed by evidence, while religion is simply made-up voodoo. Accepting scientific theories provisionally pending further evidence is neither religious nor "pseudo-religious." I agree certain secular political philosophies, if that's the right word, have verged on the religious. Nazism and communism are two that spring to mind. Personally, the only thing I worship is my pension. I couldn't exist without it.
What a fascinating conversation. Thank you :)
Re: religion and war - I think it's also more common in more religious regions because of the inbuilt 'othering' in most religions. They're already primed to view outside groups of people as unequal/lesser.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck yes. I had been waiting for this for ages. Great talk. Maybe Filip next?
So glad you two elaborated on the laziness of considering wokeness as a religion. The philosopher on the channel Carefree Wandering could take note
Great talk Alex. This is something that I needed to hear.
Badger! Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
Excellent interview and discussion.
Yoooo! Literally suggested this last week crazy turnaround lol
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read..
I didn't realize how serious Andrew is up until now.
Quality conversations thanks Alex!
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
that section on death anxiety was the most interesting this I've ever heard in a podcast.
No way! This is awesome! Two of my favorite channels
For real!
Allan K. Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read.
I've read Stewart Elliott Guthrie's book on this subject, "Faces in the Clouds." It offered the only universal explanation for religious sentiments and beliefs I've ever read. The one your guest mentioned early in this interview:
We are pattern seekers. We seek the most meaningful patterns in nature possible. This behavior led to the increased survival of our direct ancestors. The most meaningful pattern available is human beings--or things like human beings, beings with intentions towards us.
We as pattern seekers can make two mistakes, underestimate or overestimate the nature of the pattern we perceive. If we underestimate, we may die. If we overestate, we may embarrass ourselves.
It's better for our survival to overestimate. And so, evolutionarily speaking, it pays for us to overestimate when we perceive human beings or things like human beings. Hence our ancestors spotting spirits, gods, and God where they are not. Sensing the unseen other where it is not.
This theory, if correct, means we are all primed to be religious, even atheists, even agnostics like me, because we are primed to overestimate the existence of humans or human-like things, even where they are not.
Would it be feasible that high barrier to entry being more successful is due to being perceived as giving that group an "edge" - if it's that hard to enter, there must be some good reason behind it for if it was easy anyone would be permitted.
Thank you for this amazing collaboration
It's partly commitment and sunk costs. If you have a free gym membership you might skip gym days and not feel committed but when you have an expensive personal trainer you committed a lot of money to you feel bad about skipping a workout session.
Loving these podcasts, Alex.
Johnny! Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
Aww man. I love Religion for Breakfast. So glad to see him on your show.
I have recently found Jesus Christ and am currently seeking to refine the logic of my faith. If you have the time and desire I'd love to answer any questions you may have, if I am able. God bless! 🙏
@@Yacobsters That's a very interesting proposition. I'm not sure I have any questions that would be anything more than testing you. Such matters have essentially been put to rest for me. I am an agnostic atheist (although I lean pretty far to the "does not exist" side). I really don't hold any hostilities towards religious practice. Actually I can thank the Religion for Breakfast channel for much of that. Also, my wife is very religious and our daughter is being raised religious and I see it as a NET positive in their lives. I'm just not convinced.
I suppose I can start with these:
• Do you believe in the literal truth of your religious beliefs? Or do you see them more as metaphorical truths around which to facilitate communal activities within your religious community?
• How do you define "faith?" Webster's dictionary includes the definition I tend to agree with which is:
"firm belief even in the absence of proof." Do you agree with this?
@@philsaliba3668 Thank you for your time in response! I can understand being unconvinced as that has been my position for nearly all of my teen and adult life.
When it comes to the literal truths of the Bible that is a bit of a difficult one for me as I feel my spiritual awakening was a bit unconventional. I never really had any interest in studying the Bible or other religious texts in the past because I found it hard to pick a religion due to feeling like I would be saying many other people were wrong without having a leg to stand on myself. That being said after personally witnessing Jesus Christ I can tell you that things on the other side don't really happen in the same way they happen in this world. When Jesus Spoke, he place visions in my head that were metaphorical, thus leading me to believe that much of the Bible is metaphorical. Like a means of explaining deeper truths that aren't necessarily natural to our default mode of thinking. However after seeing who He is I don't put anything past Him anymore and I don't doubt that many of the stories in the Bible are non-fictional. As for the community side of it I haven't really had much interest in joining a church. I feel blessed with a closeness to God now and would rather gather fragments from the source than feed into an echo chamber I guess.
For my definition of faith that is also kinda a funny one for me as I feel as though I have been given direct proof so my faith isn't so much in the existence of the Holy Trinity as it is faith that they are perfect in their ways. Jesus came to me with excellent timing, right as I was losing hope in my dream to be a great source of light in the world. For many years nothing ever made sense to me but within a short time with Jesus I could see that the lack of sense was in my understanding of the world not in its creation. Even though I have always been a seeker, He had knowledge that far surpassed my own and He saw right through me, even parts that I was unaware of myself. Once I was done shitting my pants I realized that He was everything He claimed to be and I was humbled to my core that He had graced me with His presence and gifted me with such wisdom. I used to have faith in myself in a way but after realizing how naïve I had been, I had no choice but to place it all in Him. Since then He has continually guided me into the knowledge I need to be successful in my mission. The greatest blessing of faith in Gods love for us is the ability to let go and find peace. In the past I tried to dominate my life into success and it about killed me. Now I realize that only through peace and trust in the Lord will I be able to live a life of true meaning and fulfilment.
I hope these answers have helped you in some way and I would be more than happy to answer any more that may come to mind! Thank you again for your time. God bless you 🙏
@@Yacobsters sorry. You lost me. Can you please explain what you mean by “personally witnessing Jesus Christ?” What, exactly, did you witness?
@@philsaliba3668 Absolutely! So just for some context, up until this past year I was an atheist/agnostic. I though God didn't exist or had left us behind long ago if He did.
I was going through a particularly rough patch in a decade long battle of trying to find the wisdom needed to help repair my family. I was beginning to lose hope and things weren't looking great for my life. I'm sure I would have found a way to make due but my fire for life was quickly fading.
Then with perfect timing, I was spiritually awakened by what I could only assume was a God (never done psychedelics btw). He introduced himself as "The Benevolent One". He remained with me for about 6 months but within the first month I had deuced that He was Jesus. The personality and demeanor was about a perfect match with Jesus in the bible.
He revealed many things to me through continuous epiphanies, visions, and occasionally direct communication. It was mostly things I wasn't even aware of about myself, and He gave me the ability to forgive my family and find peace in my life.
He was a God but He treated me as an equal and showed great love in his reproof of my character. This was the most humbling experience I have ever had in my life. He was a titan and I felt so small in His embrace yet I could feel the love in his words even though everyone of them cut deep. He showed me the meaning and purpose that surrounds us and that I had been failing to see it for quite some time at that point.
Just like in the Bible, eventually He told me that His work in me was done and that He was sending the Holy Spirit to me to complete what He had started. Then I got to build a relationship with our Father through His Holy Spirit. That's another whole story of its own!
I know it sounds surreal and believe me it felt like it too. I couldn't believe that the truth was right in front of my face the whole time.
If you would like I can share with you what I believe summoned Him to me, but obviously I cant really guarantee results and It isn't necessarily an easy process if your successful. There were many parts of myself I had to let go of in a short amount of time, and even though it was the most worthwhile thing I've done in my life it was quite painful.
Thank you for your interest! Id be more than happy to answer any more question you may have for me! 🙏
Spectacular podcast. I love the conversational and inquisitive tone set on these.
You should get Filip Holm on here from Let’s Talk Religion.
how do nihilist find anything "spectacular?"
@@crystalgiddens7276 Nihilists still have biology, so food can taste good, love can make you feel appreciation, etc.
So things that exceed your current understanding or rarely happen, can do the trick
@@xraselver7634 oh, good for them
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Very insightful conversation.
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Great talk 👍 thank you both
Quality content.
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Speaking about how exclusivity binds people together and it made me realize that this is THE THING that turns me off of most fangroups etc. Fandoms (video games or movies or comics or what have you) have a very gatekeeping mentality a lot of times, and it very much seems, looking at it from this view, that those behaviors are geared towards protecting the comradery of shared experiences that they gain in that group.... very interesting
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great episode!!
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The crossover we were waiting for
These need to be longer Alex. 2 hours.
Regarding wars and religion. I believe geopolitics is the key factor.
European states stopped having colonies not because they became more peaceful or atheist but because those colonies were no longer profitable (tied to capitalism, the extraction of resources from those colonies still take place, but now with no flag in the city hall).
Moreover, the hegemonic country today has such a massive amount of atomic bombs and so many shares across the world that other countries might find impossible to try to change anything.
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Lovely and informative episode.
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I think when people criticize an ideology (leftism etc) as a religion, they are targeting the outsourcing of thought. I.e. The acceptance of beliefs and their enforcement without bothering to ground the beliefs for themselves and responding to investigation of the beliefs with fanaticism and emotion rather than analysis.
That's true, but its not the ONLY parallel between leftism and traditional religions.
-Supernatural beliefs; eg, the belief that some men are "REALLY women", in some mystical, pseudo-spiritual sense completely without empirical evidence. That speaking a magical spell ("I identify as [x]") can transform your most fundamental traits- Many claim it transforms your "gender". But a growing minority even claim it transforms your sex; That in some (again, 100% evidence-free sense) a "transwoman" is "biologically female"/"not biologically male".
-Belief that rejecting these evidence-free, supernatural beliefs inherently makes you immoral, and a bad person.
Different people wield the accusation differently. When a Christian calls wokeism or scientism or any threatening ideology a religion, they obviously don’t mean it in the sense you’re talking about. They brand ideology as idolatry, mocking the effort to fill a "god-shaped hole" with something other than god.
@@eb2c09 certainly your first statement is unquestionable. But I disagree strongly that it's obviously not the case...at any rate, it is my intuitive understanding of the criticism. In fact, I think the behavior of a God shaped hole is precisely what I'm describing...the outsourcing of thought to a collection of dogma for some kind of psychic relief.
@@eb2c09 ironically idolatry is the basis of Christianity. Jesus is an idol in the trinity in comparison to Islam, Muslims can easily tell the difference between Allah and Jesus or Allah and Mohammad but Christians cannot.
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I really enjoyed that. The whole conversation was brilliant. Also very amused by the idea of circumcision leading people into the sunk cost fallacy. No one wants to lose their foreskin for nothing.
I like to think of religious behavior as including these three components:
1- worship which is what you believe is highest worth in life (self autonomy, comfort, relationships, wealth, etc)
2 - sacrafice which is everything else you are willing to put behind/after/lower than what you worship
3 - rituals which are the acts you perform (including the sacrifices) to embody what you worship
Thank you Sirs!
May I please have some more?
This was one of the most interesting presentations I have experienced on CZcams in several years.
I have found each of
you to be worthy of
subscription since 2013 and often speculated what your cooperative efforts would be like. I have my answer, "Bloody Brill" I strongly encourage you both to make many more collaborative efforts.
Kia mihi
ah how cool is that! Love both of you, to see you discuss together is a Sunday treat (pun intended) 🥰
A Sunday treat for breakfast ? Hey..
That's "Within Reason" !
@@johnbrzykcy3076 😅👍
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NonStampCollector made a video on how religion came about. I forget the title of it. I think it's called "the thing that made everything" or something like that.
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The analogy of why is the tea boiling… I can’t fully comprehend all of my thoughts right now, but both explanations are true and can coexist. “Because I’m thirsty” is the explanation that matters more to people on the day-to-day level. And the explanation of the scientific mechanics of how water molecules boil is also meaningful. I don’t know if it adds more meaning to the former explanation, but it does elaborate on it and facilitates the product of more hot cups of tea. So… religion can be a good hot cup of tea, even if you know evolutionary/cultural reasons it came to be.
Thanks so much
If your religious I highly recommend Alex
He’s the best atheistic debater and philosopher of our time and he has not even come close to his peak
Best philosopher? How exactly?
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Lol.....this whole thing has larger than meteor craters....
As a psychologist I'm itching to answer their speculations about sunk costs, strict rules, high costs, cohesion and all that. They should invite a social psychologist. The answers are there.
It seems pretty obvious, doesn’t it? Social primates are such transactional creatures-we don’t do much for nothing-and that transactional attitude really counts when you know you’re going to die! The thought that our trials and triumphs only amount to the material legacy we leave behind, maybe not very much. Which also makes clear why it would be an evolutionary benefit: in-group cohesion, altruism and perseverance. I don’t really value those things myself, but they are obviously evolutionarily important even into our recent agrarian past. Capitalism has made all that obsolete of course, indeed even economically detrimental. Both conditions are ugly, in their respective ways, aren’t they. Cheery.
I discovered this social dimension of belief at a very young age, when I started telling other kids that Santa is not real in early elementary school, and it upset some of the parents. I remember getting a talking to from my mum, about keeping it a secret because it ‘might make some other kids sad’. I was an outspoken kid, I just always said the obvious. I’m an outspoken adult, I still don’t like social fiction feel-good filters. Which is often unpleasant to navigate in a hyper-therapized culture, where one is NEVER to mention death casually or question aloud whether or what kind of human condition is actually worth living-the central topic of philosophy for millennia.
It sounds like pure speculation to me, type of thing they themselves would say in an attempt to rationalize what would otherwise be unforgivable. If it were true group cohesion depended on high cost rituals you wouldn't expect to see things like a majority of non religious jews or more women than men identifying as religious. Stop giving sadists the tools they need to justify their abuse.
@@grapenut6094 Just to be clear, social cohesion absolutely does not depend on high cost rituals and I hope nobody reads my comment as implying that. It's but one of many factors that tend to contribute.
@@bjorsam6979 Well no, and depended was the wrong word. What I should have said was barring fringe cases I think guest speaker was dead wrong about sunken cost not being the primary motivator here.
I think if we define 'Religion' like this it removes a lot of the confusion: RELIGION is just a label we put on our highest, most pressing values and principles; met or merely idealized; some of which becomes ritualized or habituated, but encompass all the things we consider sanctified.
I really love the weekly podcast
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Nice conversation. I'm looking forward to episode on secular morality.
It's made up. It's not real. Morals are a way to control you
Thought-provoking stuff
dear @CosmicSkeptic
please invite prof. robery sapolsky on origin of religion and human behaviour. that would be very informing for your viewers.
The idea that 'religious' politics are a sign that we're losing something valuable from the decline of religion doesn't hold up when you recognise that a lot of these people eg Christian nationalists are already religious and aren't the ones for whom religion is declining
Desperation leads to erratic jumps. And so does righteous ire, whatever that even means.
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"Coca-cola without the sugar, without the food color" I get what you're saying here, but this is a good example of how trying to logically summarize a situation in a simple manner can go wrong. I switched to stevia-based cola a while ago, and it fits that description, while still tasting of "cola" and having a decent fizz from the carbonation (the actual point of "soda", which is often forgotten).
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Recommended reading. Daniel Dennett- Breaking The Spell
The parts about religiouns with hasher demands and higher buy in costs has some interesting implications on the subject of both human and non-human rights movements.
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A question in regards to this issue of whether political movements can be characterised as religious: can Totalitarian ideologies like Communism, Nazism, and Fascism be considered religious? These movements were highly cohesive, rigorously defined, came packaged with a slew of metaphysical and ethical beliefs including eschatologies, were awash with carefully controlled rituals, had writers and enforcers of doctrine, etc. But they explicitly condemned traditional religions like Christianity (Fascist Italy perhaps less so than the other two).
In my view these are the best examples of political religions, i.e. religions organised around a political agenda first and foremost rather than American civil religion which is more like a political tradition that accrues spiritual resonances over time after its political goals have been achieved, and unlike Woke-ism which is very broad, non-cohesive and ill-defined and includes dozens of different sub-groupings. And I think the reason they warred with other traditional religions was not because they were truly irreligious themselves, but because they were competing for the same idea-space in people's minds. They were a competing religion waging a crusade where they thought it necessary to do so. BUT, they had no God or Gods nor a belief in an afterlife, they were appropriating the powers of a God for themselves and trying to create heaven on earth with human hands.
If we accept this, then it makes the post-WW2 and post-Cold War era a very significant one indeed in the progress of global human civilisation, not just Western civilisation, because it introduced political religions to the world, and Communism was especially potent in spreading such an institution to other continents. I get the sense that we've barely begun to unpack the ramifications of this for the place of religion in our psychology, and it certainly tears prior definitions of atheism apart at the seams. It also seems as though these were the culmination of 200+ years of intellectual labour following on from the Enlightenment's killing of God, as Nietzsche put it.
(I also consider Hegelianism to be a religion in and of itself, Hegel of course being very influential for the rise of Marxism and the concept of historicism generally etc., and being considered the end-point or culmination of the Enlightenment by some (including himself). Hegel claimed to be moving beyond the pictorial representations of religion towards a more rational and articulate state of wisdom, but believing this depends on believing his account of the phenomenology of the Geist etc. which I do not, so it’s just another atheist religion).
Dbl like emoji Alex !. 💕
Wot I love about my religioness, is I really don't mind whom believes in wot.
There is absolutely no way of proving that anything exists outside of my head.
I guess choose a role in this story called Life.
I find it relieving to be devotional in my way of living.
I find it comforting to believe in a Life after dying.
And/Also, I'm not fussed @ all if there is nothing when we die - the great big blank.
So blank we'll have no awareness that God does or doesn't exist; easy peasy.
Having that said - I do in truth - have a horse in the race, but more an outsider that noone wud bet on 😉
Tx for your great work x
One thing I know for sure, when we die we'll stop wondering about reincarnation, verses heaven, verses nothingness.
Always loved Religion for Breakfast. He always did his best to present the facts without twisting it for a pro/anti religion agenda. He also recognizes the futility of historical evidence and the lack of unanimity of religious scholars about what actually happened in the past.
The remarks about the effects on people of being reminded about death (about 52:00) are really interesting. Also the part (about 1:01:00) that the more peaceful and less violent environments in the wealthier countries contributes to the decline of religion. I would think that perhaps contributes to why religion hangs on more in the U.S. - our social baseline is so much more violent.
Simple.
For people to live together as a group, they need rules.
Enter religion.
A system of beliefs and behaviors implemented to socialize/indoctrinate ideal group members and/or group, and it is transmitted from 1 generation to the next.
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Then why do Religions decline e.g like Christianity???
@@Aquacrystal78
"Then why do Religions decline e.g like Christianity???"
People learn new things and create new religions or improve on old religions.
Social evolution.
The atheist, or secular church, idea is interesting to me. I am still trying to learn about what is the best way to handle existential dread and better achieve harmony or self actualization, in a rational and grounded fashion. And that could mean acknowledging social evolution and how religion and our social constructs have developed to address just those very things. Is possible to a Secular church able to offer enough ritual and religious modeled programming to achieve said goals, while be able to accept and adapt to evolving scientific understanding the the natural world?
One of the things that encourages me is how evidence shows, that you can modulate your parasympathetic system by various methods. Including, telling your self stories. Especially, nostalgic stories. And the state of your parasympathetic nervous system is a key component to the existential condition. An out of wack parasympathetic system can have adverse mental and physical outcomes on your life. Ties into Terror Management theory.
Another great example, and I reminded of this by the talk of religious ritual, is the power of the placebo effect. But there is also an incredible amount of unconscious emphasis people put into healers. To the point where the degree of symptoms are reduced or nullified. Placebo effect studies are wild. Of course, like any category there are not many double blind studies, but there are enough that still point to and impressive potential effect. One that I suspect overlaps with the magical thinking or ritual performances.
The best thing you can do is distance yourself from atheism, and everything it sells you. Look for meaning beyond the iron cage (ala Peter berger) that materialism gives you.
You've made a very good point about religion playing a crucial role in our human-evolution, as something that prehaps we can't ignore or replace without harmful consequences, but you're missing a fact that religion is primarily a documented and institutionalized tradition, which serves as a source of moral-system for maintaining the civilization, and this form of tradition is the only way to successfully preserve the knowledge on multi-generational scale, or verify the authenticity of practices which have passed the test of time as being most in line with our human-nature.
Please do a video on terror management theory, sounds v v interesting
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I am from Denmark and foreigners often misunderstand when we baptise children, get married in church and have a state church you are basically born into. For most Danes it has very little to do with religion and everything to do with tradition and ceremoni on special occations.
You automatically become a member of the church at brith. That means as an adult you pay a church tax but you can opt out anytime you want. How most see this tax, if they give it a thought at all, is a kind of culture tax that goes to keeping the cultural heritage that is the old churces around the county maintained.
I think the knowledge and fear of death coupled with an unfulfilled life makes religion necessary. If you feel unfulfilled and unhappy in life you need the promose of something better after death. On the other hand, if you are happy and fulfilled you don’t need this promise. I think that is why you see that the Scandinavian counties are the most happy and secular.
Am not sure exactly how but I feel these are strongly connected.
Religion is a bulwark of culture and a bedrock of tradition and people do feel the need to preserve both in most countries. You are right about one aspect of faith. All manner of affliction and fear, deprivation and desire have traditionally driven faith at the lower end. But the spiritual quest and inquisitiveness have always been real enough (especially in India) and the many paths have provided portals.
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Religion began when the first conman met the first fool. -- Mark Twain
That's why I trust The Science
Atheism is a religion.
@@HoratioKJV What brainless nonsense.
"Say goodnight, Gracie."
@@hrh2842 Spouting abuse doesn't refute the claim. God not existing isn't proven therefore, it's a faith.
@@HoratioKJV The burden of proof is on you because you claim that god exists. All Atheists are saying is prove it.
Many here will know that the word religion comes from re-ligio, re-ligare, meaning to bind together - think ligaments, etc.
However, the re- prefix is often ignored. So we should be thinking re-bind together. So, there was a time (before religion) that we were bound together in a shared belief. At some point we drifted apart and religion was required to bring us back together.
What was that original state? It was when all human beings had an innate spiritual faculty in common. As this atavistic clairvoyance started to fade, more formal belief systems were required to maintain shared spiritual culture.
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Thank you
Well, my religion (Flawlessism), I think is a pretty good way to keep the "rats" out without having the negative effects that prevent people from thinking critically and things like that. There's no heavy price to pay in order to become a believer, yet its ability to evolve is what I believe is going to allow it to continue to exist as a religion people will believe in far into the future.
Now it could be that the current version of Flawlessism is the correct one, I have faith that it is, but even if it isn't, it doesn't really matter that much, because it can just evolve. In your explanation of the "rats" and the "fence", I think that my religion would be like a fence that no one would forget the meaning of, because it would continue to evolve as needed, so no one would ever have a reason to forget why it's there because it wouldn't be a thing of the past, but of the present.
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The intro to this video makes Attack on Titan make a lot more sense
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Can anyone versed in podcasts help me figure out how to comment, or “like” Alex’s podcast? I have an apple product, and I click on an app that just says “podcasts”. It’s a blue background , with what I guess is, a radio antenna. This was such an educational podcast, as are many, that I thoroughly enjoyed!
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The mandolorian children of the watch fit the longevity argument for strict religious behaviours. Starwars is so intelligent sometimes.
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Just commenting on "we are the only species to be able to understand that we will die", I think that this is a bit too early to be sure of that when some species such as elephants seems to have some kind of concept of death since they have a place they go when they are about to die
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Science and religion have a common ancestor in philosophy.
Religion, as in myths created to explain an unexplainable world, predate philosophy.
I would say science and philosophy have a common ancestor in religion.
@@kpllc4209 Dark Ages say wut
@@MrYelly Greek Philosophy arose from the Orphic and Dionysius cults. The word theory comes from Theoria which means to contemplate the gods.
@@kpllc4209 Ah yes, the greek pantheon. So much alike our current day abrahamic nonsense.
Enjoying these conversations. I'd be interested in this becoming a Lex Fridman like podcast focused on religious topics
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Having higher thresholds for entry into groups can also increase the quality of the group. You're only as strong as the weakest link.
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I think one of the main benefits and reasons for religion was to explain stuff and to let us move on
Instead of second guessing yourself and dwelling on stuff you say it's part of God's plan and move on
So basically without it you were more likely to dwell on things, this may have lead to depression or other problems and thus you were more likely to have kids if you were religious (also helped by the sense of belonging)
We do the same now with saying something was bad luck or shit happens and other sayings like those
it's likely you at least somewhat caused whatever happened but it's beneficial for your survival and reproduction to not think about it and just move on
The problem is that religious people more often see some sort of order imposed on all events in their life. Everything, even tragic events such as the death of a child, is interpreted as part of God's plan. This is, admittedly, a good coping mechanism.
On the other hand, learning that nature is essentially chaotic can make you feel as if you had no control over your life. So, atheists have to turn to other mechanisms to gain this feeling of order and control.
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
@@mikolmisol6258 there's order the universe is stable we have order on earth the climate is about right no tectonic plates and all nutrients would be washed away into the sea shell's on mount Everest from below the sea.
Without evolution being messy there would be no variety we also use it our food couldn't survive naturally huge seeds and fruit would be eaten to easily .
It's nothing to do with coping maybe it helps some but you can't choose to believe it's not possible
I get that Camus isn't big in the US but I would've thought that absurdism would've made its way onto britain's culture. Great conversation thx
Read him in High school so maybe your wrong or I had a unique teacher!
That was in California in the 70's
This was way more interesting than the WLC talk.
23:10 I think what's here is that in my definition of religion, they seem to be using it as an explanation for things they cannot yet understand (or that the ruling class doesn't want answered, but usually that would be for rituals or convenient explanations of why 'bad' things are happening) and I think that may be one of the most important parts of the fence and also the reason why most of us left it, the answers didn't hold up to scrutiny.
Community and morality can be made using public services and empathy, and answers to questions come from scientific method based research and development.
I think community is the thing we are losing to what I would call the religion of capitalism, the comodification of human interaction has really been the fence we shouldn't have taken down...
Are there any good books on Terror Management Theory?
There's the Handbook of TMT, but I've never read it. Audiobooks like the Tao Te Ching chillstep are very good anti-terror and pro-agnosticism, too bad the Taoists religions thought it alone wasn't enough for them and formed very detailed religions beyond the Tao Te Ching to celebrate their supposed awareness of the Tao... and often make money/livelihood while doing it.
Roach! Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...
Got real nervous when Alex was talking about those studies that showed the mention of your death could make you act so much worse towards people and animals 👀👀 I'm a hospice nurse 😅
Indifference is much much worse than hate. Indiffence makes for butchery by proxy. Hate and love are both passions, indifference is a spot on Madam Macbeth and a knife in your own back making serial.killers of chicken pluckers. Indifference is where care goes to die.
Im a nutjob we have a shared profession
I'm curious about how the Stoic motto Memento Mori fits in this picture. My sense is that it's supposed to inspire one to make the most of the time you have. I suppose that because it's a conscious acceptance of mortality that it may be different.
So interesting that Andrew kept bringing up monogamy as a similar biological and sociological construct to religion. I happen to have left both within a couple years of each other 🤔
Finally, you talk to a religious studies scholar. Worlds finally collide. It's more informative to know the actual historical context of these ideas than to listen to debates centered around relatively basic atheist and apologetic arguments. I'd rather listen to what a religious studies scholar has to say regarding Jordan Peterson's ideologies for example. I absolutely love religious studies and philosophy colliding.
I agree with you. I get tired of confrontational debates. Usually such debates are fruitless.
Sorry, when I hear the term religiosity. I switch off.
You absolutely must have Sheldon Solomon on your show!!!
Have a look at: ''e risale english''. Just write it exactly in a search box. Pops up at the top of your search. It will give you the true answers. This is the real thing! Have a read...red7
I like the way he defines 'religion', and rightfully recognizes it's difficult to define. Our current colloquial understanding is after all a historically recent Protestant idea, simultaneously meaning both 'what one believes, and separate from the secular'. An idea absent outside culture's not influenced by Christian cultures.
That said, claiming it originates due to human fear of death, that's completely superficial. Sometimes an aspect of it, but definitely not why it originated.
According to basic psychology, and cognitive dissonance theory. The later being quite different from what most people think, mostly being know for the manifestation of it's results, 'when reality clashes with a deeply held certainty. It's really about our minds need to hold our beliefs/thoughts, behaviors, and emotions all congruent, in alignment, and until we do, we'll experience cognitive dissonance. Along with our need to hold our every behavior as "good". And if our behavior we deem "bad", we'll either discontinue the behavior, change our belief, so it's "good", or enjoy cognitive dissonance until it's aligned.
^^^ That highlights how deeply morality is wired into us, how crucial it is for us to determine "good" or "bad" behaviors, and to accept some homogenous moral framework. Usually the one of our culture, but nearly always the one of those closest to us.
Imo, what we call "religion", is simply 'culturally homogeneous moral frameworks'. We evolved to 'be religious' to cooperate, and we survive, or thrive, according to how well the moral framework functions.
I'm with Peter Boghosian, on his 'replacement hypothesis', like him, I watched 'atheism plus' melt the brains of self professed critical, rational thinkers, turning them quickly into radical relativists.
"The secular" as we colloquially understand it, came with our current, historical recent understanding of religion. From there, it was always religious, an unacknowledged denomination of Protestantism, imo.
Moral assumptions are subtle, and powerful buggers. By definition, assumed, taken as a given, go without being questioned, taken for granted, particularly within the homogeneous moral framework of any particular culture. Us now being in a 'culture war', we've started to question those 'moral assumptions', and seeing more defined 'moral frameworks'.
Because I happened to be studying authoritarian thought reform tactics, I wasn't swayed by their use when 'atheism plus' melted others brains with their heavy use. I held to my cultures traditional moral framework, it being based in old school John Locke, JS Mill, basic human rights, which is colloquially synonymous with God given rights.
Yes the political is religious, not 'secular' as defined by being 'seperate from religion'. As an example, even with my denial of a belief in "God", I often find myself saying/thinking, "How dare the state or anyone violate anothers basic human rights!"
That's some righteous moral indignation, it happens to be appealing to some vague, nebulous, nameless, higher moral authority than any state, or any human being. Am I appealing to a god? Whatever the case, my appeal is sincere, and I'm self aware enough to recognize it as the religious appeal it is.
In short, 'religion' are homogeneous moral frameworks we need to cooperate and survive, or thrive according to how well they function.
Looks like our culture's traditional moral framework is mostly antithetical to the authoritarian tactics outlined in Robert Lifton's 8. An example, the 1st amendment to the US constitution includes free speech and freedom of assembly. Where #1 of Lifton's 8 includes censorship and control of association.
It's interesting to note, in the US, a lot are noticing our divide is less 'red vs blue', and more authoritarian vs anti authoritarian.
Basic human rights/God given rights, with it being antithetical to authoritarianism, looks to be an extremely high functioning moral framework. Contrary to atheist claims "religion inhibits scientific progress!" In our case, it is responsible for our insane hyper abundance, and technological, and scientific advances. Because God given rights/basic human rights, allows for the pareto principle in economics to work its magic.
Good guest, has Alex interviewed Tom Holland yet?
A society is made of shared taboos and objectionable behaviors. That is the core of the shared values which emerge as morals. Maybe the geography, geopolitical realities, and having numerous competition/enemies might have a huge impact on those things.
The Annunaki. Those two brothers made a mess of our planet by introducing religion and the concept of worship! 🤦🏽🤬😊
Need to follow that design brief 🖍💼.
Oh not that gala bullshit
@fnansjy just as valid as any religious bullshit ! 🙄🤦🏽
Funny how people think that Mesopotamia is as far as religion and human history go back.
@@dogstar5927 true