Checking out Italian electrics - Surprisingly neat! | Thomas Nagy
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- While on holiday in Italy i decided to scope out some of the electrics over there, which actually seem pretty neat and tidy.
If you are from Italy please comment below!
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hello thomas, I'm from south italy (napoli) and i’m an electrician here. I follow you for a while, I could not wait for you to see some Italian electrical system, just because here we have strict rules and we build the systems well.
For the kitchen, here we must use isolator switches for the plugs that you cant reach by hand, so it is strange you didnt find it in this kitchen in austria!
For the relais, we use a lot of them in our houses as well, mainly to switch loghts from more than 2 points.
For bathrooms, we can put sockets and cablings just 2 meters away from the shower . No need to distance from sinks
Nice to know I am not alone in having the tendency to rip open fuseboards on holidays. 😆
i always do that as well
I wank in the when know ones Ohm
Oh no, far from alone 😂
11:30 Generally speaking: The reason because there are no isolators is that those are not required and the reason for that is: no ring circuits!
In Poland, installations are built according to IEC standards being simply translated without any particular additions or special requirements. Based on that:
1. Metal DBs aren't a necessity. It's usually a mix of plastic and metal in various combinations. The DB you showed in your video has a metal cover because plastic looks and feels cheap. The same board probably comes with plastic or transparent (glass/plastic) door. The plastic they use is of fire-retardant kind.
2. Ferrules are of course necessary for stranded conductors and I can't imagine not using them with such. For solid cores they're pointless. Stranded conductors are easy to work with so we use them to wire boards commonly. Feeding MCBs from the top isn't common, though. We usually use comb bars and feed from the bottom.
3. Relays for lighting are particularly common in setups with photocells, motion sensors or timers that don't have sufficient current rating to supply the lighting circuit. Bi-stable relays are quite popular for multiway light switching, usually in hallways and stairwells. It's very easy to wire - an infinite number of "doorbell" kind of retractable switches (they come with a picture of a bulb as well) in parallel with just two-conductor cable. These relays could also have adjustable timer.
4. Sockets and zones in bathrooms... Sockets are allowed anywhere outside of zone 2, provided that they have proper IP rating (I think IP44, stricter rules apply to public bathrooms). Sinks aren't taken under consideration at all (same with kitchen sinks). Every circuit in bathrooms must be protected with 30mA RCD. Electric showers in zone 1 or 2 are allowed under certain circumstances (RCD, hardwired, proper IP rating).
5. Isolators for individual appliances are unheard of. Most heavy appliances run on individual circuits. No rings. 2.5 mm cable and 16A type B MCBs in socket circuits, 10A (or 6A) 1.5 mm for lighting. Cookers run on 5x2.5mm 16A circuit. Mixing lighting and sockets in one circuit is forbidden.
6. We use single-pole MCBs and our supply is mostly TN-C-S and less commonly TT. The use of two-pole breakers in some countries could be customary (some countries used to have 127/220V supply with two phases in sockets and lights and it just got stuck in local codes even if the supply has been updated) or could be due to the popularity of TT supply. I think in Italy TT is very common. In TT the neutral conductor could be at substantially high potential to the earth so it's better to isolate it to provide safety. In TN-C-S it's pointless since PE an N are connected at the supply anyway.
AFAIK TT has been entirely put out of use in Austria several years ago.
7. We use type E "French" sockets which allow fixed polarity but there's no legal requirement to wire it in a certain way (except for PE, of course).
8. Almost every house and many new flats have 3-phase 400V supply. Single phase (usually artificially limited to 25 or 32A by the power company, because "reasons") is common in cottages and older flats that use gas and central heat. Most houses have 3-ph 25 or 32A supply but 63A 40kVA is available for those who want/need it for a single update fee (no extra monthly fees). All newly built supplies must have the meter and the main fuse available for the power company without entering your property so it's usually located in a cabinet at the property line (accessible from the street). The cable between the meter and the main DB is usually at least 10 mm although it could more if it's excessively long.
Are you working in UK as an electrician ?
Those rules are pretty much the exact same here in France, we mainly fit plastic boards from schneider, like this one tinyurl.com/y296qa3h and use these type of breakers for sockets/lights etc tinyurl.com/y6y9xrjb
We can put up to 8 sockets or lights on one circuit, cookers/stoves/induction plates have their own breakers. Same goes for heating systems or airconditioning..
tinyurl.com/y2tdvjwb These are mainly the main power breaker for the entire board, power goes in at the bottom and feeds out the top to one of those tinyurl.com/y4bdadqs which then transfers the power into the 32/20/16/10A and those output at the bottom
These fuse boards look pretty standard for the EU. My house rewire was done 10 years ago and i got the same fuse board, but with single breakers. As you've already found out, the metal is on fuse board cover only. For the oven, dish washer and tumble dryer/washing machine there is no special requirement to have an isolator near the device. They have there own circuit and fuse usually.
Btw, put away your screwdriver and enjoy the lovely landscape ;-) Have a nice vacation!
Hi there Thomas I am writing to you from Argentina. In our country we don't use rings either and the local std are completely in line with ISO/DIN (german). So the similarity is amazing. Each circuit goes straight to a breaker in the panel. I happen to own a business re blinds and shutters. Those shutters that u see in continental Europe are mostly for energy saving purposes and to "black out" the rooms. The ones used for safety are a lot heavier gauge than what you saw. The air trapped between the shutter and the glazing acts as an extra layer of isolation both for heat as well as cold. Btw, great videos. Been folowing u for almost 3 months now. Saludos! Daniel.
Interesting, so you use din standards, Is there a correlation between the standards and that they were / are rumours than the nazi fled to south America after the second world war,
We use a lot of relays to switch lights from 2-3-4 points
This relay is for reversing switches on the impulse for lights with the ignition in several places. The installation you saw is a combination of Italian and German (Austrian)
The ferrules are used because multi core cable is used. If you use single core, you don't really need them. But if you want a neat look, you're fine with using them.
What voltage is the relay coil?
The one in my house looks similar and is a hager EP 510, 230 V ac pulse switches 250 V ac at 16A
if it is a pulse switch on/off, the control wire will have 230V ac. so mains phase. manufacturers are often eltako
I guess you're sugesting a 24v outside light setup?
The relay may be to control communal lighting from several different separate installations. The use of a relay allows control of lights (or anything else) on a separate installation/supply.
black is allowed for phase, the colour for the 3 phases are brown, black, grey, if you have only 1 phase use whatever colour you prefer (or you have with you), typically brown but sometimes black and gray.
We use only single stranded cables for everything, all cables are required to be run into pipes, that makes a lot of sense for maintenance and upgrades, I don't get why also the UK requires this.
6mm for the main feed is commonly used, a standard electrical contract provides 3.3kW of power, with a meter that have electronic limiting, if you overload for too much time a solenoid trips the breaker on the meter, and you have reset it manually (and typically it's out in the street...)
Here we usually prefer plastic for everything, it's considered better (the opposite of UK). Metal is not forbidden, but also not taken into consideration on consumer installations, in the past was used but nowadays all is plastic, metal is used in industrial environments where you need more mechanical protection.
Probably they fitted a metal door in that consumer unit only because it looks better than a transparent plastic door where you see the breakers.
That consumer unit is fine, but it's unusual the kind of breakers chosen, usually we have 1P+N breakers, not 2P breakers. Why we also interrupt the neutral, with that it's trivial to find a N-E fault that trips a RCD, and also I feel more secure to work with the neutral disconnected.
Also in Südtirol they use different kind of plugs and switches, the same they use in germany, that I don't like because they are fixed size and not flexible and modular, like we normally have, if you look at Biticino living for example, you have modules that you can use to assemble everything you need, more flexible for me.
You can have sockets in bathroom, the only parameter that you have to take into consideration is the distance between the bathtub or the shower, there are zones, but there are no limits of distance from sinks. Of course plugs in the bathroom should be under a 30mA RCD like all other circuits in the house, some electricians installs a 10mA RCD only for the bathroom, but it's not required (but good a practice).
Usually a step relay is used when you need to have a lot of switches (4 or more) to control one light, for example a corridor light, so you need to bring only 2 wires on every switch instead of 3/4, and momentary switches and a relay costs less than 3/4-way switches and extra cable. In that case could also be that they used a relay because they needed to control the lights with a lower voltage, maybe a light sensors, or to have a switch on the intercom, or I don't know, you can also see a transformed mounted near the relay, probably 12v or 24v and a 12/24v relay.
Isolator are not used, except for things permanently wired in like boilers, air conditioners, and others, where you typically derivate power from a nearby plug and put a double pole switch, then there is no reason to have them, in the UK you need them because you have ring circuits, in Europe we don't have them so how an isolator it's useful for a load that you can unplug.
Great video Thomas! Nice to see installations from other places.
From my experience of living in Italy, that does seem to be a very high end installation, done by the book.
In Italy, it seems to be very common to have latching relays for lighting so you can press a button and have the lights come on or off from a large number of switchpoints. We in the UK could use a couple of two way switches and a few crossovers, but the only house I know that has three switches on one lamp fitting in the UK is... mine.
Probably the answer to your question is that the light fitting is outside and therefore powered from a communal supply owned by the company that manages the apartment block (a bit like the freeholder in the UK, but probably actually a co-operatively owned and managed company owned by the various owners of the apartments). To allow maintenance by this company, isolation would need to possible from the leaseholder's switch. Also, private people cannot legally sell electricity in Italy, so if you go to a garage complex, you will find that each garage has its own cutout and meter as it would be illegal for a management firm to supply electricity to each private or rented garage as part of the deal - the electricity must be sold directly by the electricity board!
I would imagine it is something along those lines anyway: assuming the light can be controlled from outside the flat, perhaps the flat owner cannot be expected to supply the electricity for the communal lighting or to maintain it if it serves the common area? Is this possible, or could you turn that light off completely from within the flat?
Also, the Italian installations I have seen tend to have just two breakers per flat. One at 16A for power sockets, and another at a lower rating for lighting. Historically the small pin sockets were served by a lower-rated circuit and the large pin sockets by a higher rated socket. All I know is I very much appreciate the fact that sockets in the UK have been universal for decades, saves changing the plug on an iron every time you decide to do the ironing in a different location that has the wrong type of socket! Most modern Italian sockets accept both the small 2/3 pin plugs, the large 2/3 pin plugs, and the 'German' Schuko type, which is a step forward, like the one you used.
They don't seem to use twin and earth at all. In an Italian textbook, I have seen it referred to as 'piattino' and is was referred to as the sort of legacy thing no one would ever use today (like paper insulated cable).
Sockets in bathroom totally normal - how else do you plug in the washing machine, which is usually in the bathroom?
Not ever heard shutters in Italy considered as a 'safety' feature. But then, they are so normalised, no one thinks of them at all. In Friuli Venezia Giulia, shutters tended to be closed at night in lieu of curtains, and to keep the sun out during hot days. Traditional houses all had them, and they tended to be wooden hinged affairs that opened outwards. much like like British casement windows (Italian windows hinge inwards). Have seen external roller shutters in Bergamo, and they seem to use them in much the same way. I think that most Italians do tend to consider that you shut the shutters at night in the same way that we lock our doors before we go to bed.
The electrian can decide what fuse board he likes to use , but on the inside all fuseboards are made out of plastic which doesn't need to be earthed. This electrician used metal because it just looks and feels better.
Great Video by the way !
The covers usually are metal while the base is plastic.
I thought the metal cover was for fire resistance. Plastic box will melt in minutes?
Here in the Netherlands we use very a very similar setup, however we're only allowed to use 4 branch circuits per RCD. Wiring inside fuseboards is done with stranded wire, and for proper termination you need ferrules. The "twin" ferrules are very helpful because it is not allowed to have multiple conductors in one cage clamp (like on a breaker).
Putting ferrules on solid wire doesn't make any sense, so I take it that that Austrian house is wired in stranded singles? Interesting. I knew that was pretty common in France.
However that installation isn't the newest, the Merlin-Gerin name changed to Schneider Electric in 2009.
Over here all household and small commercial fuseboards are plastic.
Outgoing circuits are typically wired in 2,5mm singles (always in conduit) or 3-core cable (insulated earth wire), protected by a 16-amp B-type breaker. We only use C-type breakers for loads with high inrush current (circuits with lots of computers, heavy motors, machinery). In houses, lighting and sockets are combined on the same circuit, in larger buildings it's usually separated.
I've never ever seen isolator switches in houses, larger kitchen appliances usually have their own dedicated circuit, and even if they don't they just plug in and that's your means of disconnection.
There was a time when washing machines needed to be hard-wired to an isolator switch (usually on a non-RCD protected circuit), but since RCD's are mandatory that's no longer an issue, and they can just be plugged in to their dedicated socket.
Bathroom fans are wired on their own switch (like a pull cord next to it or extra wall switch) or switched by the light switch (sometimes with timer function).
1. There you go all answers
They all need a metal enclosure because if there was a fire it will be contained but the cover is not always plastic it’s something metal
2. Ye you get north and south Italy
3. It is by code it put a ferrel over the cable the feed out
4. I will judge the eclectic box a 8/10
5. We put relays as if the cable shorted or the switch the person will be protected
6. The switch don’t. Physically support more then 20A only a short burst
7. They put relays outside as the outside light is not always earthed so its another layer of protection
8. It not by code for putting an isolation switch
9. I think the reason why we dont have it in the uk is because it really expensive to maintain
10. Also by some change that socket in the bathroom will be protected by an rcb
11. Thank you MG
Marco Genio how does a relay provide protection?
Hi Tom I live in Italy no we have no requirement for metal fuse boards actually most of them are plastic (look for Centralino and you will see). We have c breakers because we must provide our own earth (tt). 6mm tail ok up to 32A, a 40A should use a 10mm. Relay because older house= small space inside the wall = fiewer wires in the walls with a relay. No isolators may be a double pole switch and the meter has a Breaker electronic on it.
Many houses have a standard 3kw 16A main (if you go over it the meter shuts the power off), so houses have a main rcd a 16A and a 10A for lighting. New installations over 75m2 must be sized for 6kw sistems. (the difference on fixed monthly cost between 3 and 6kw is quite a lot). Older systems before 1990 only require an rcd and mcb (just one)...
Marco Genio I think you may have misunderstood him. The overload/short circuit protection relays he calls "breakers". He was asking about the control relay for the outside lamp.
I think it's common on mainland Europe that isolater switch is not required as long as the equipment is plugged. And you can probably use the breaker as an isolator if it is directly connected, but the circuit only supply one appliance.
In the netherlands we use a electric system whit all pipes and boxes that are conected so if you meed a rewire its eazy and cheaper than in the uk
Mate, it's not sad! I did the same in Greece last year. Board was very, very similar to this. Singles everywhere, 40a RCD Main switch etc. Was impressed by how neat it was.
RELAY [love your curiosity and enthusiasm Thomas]. Construction is different to the UK. Mainly based on poured concrete which is very strong but you decide everything at the start and afterwards difficult to change. The conduit embedded in the concrete will converge at the fuse board. So if you have a light that is controlled from several switches that are far apart you need a lot of wire to go in and out of the center if you do it the UK way. Having a relay at the center needs less wire and gives you more flexibility.
opening up your fuseboard in your holiday accomadtion :) LOL,
Load out of the bottom is pretty standard in more commercial and industrial installations in the UK. I'd say that's an old MG Pragma modular board with a flush mount kit, still available from Schneider, along with the Acti-9 kit. All solid kit and nicely installed by the look of it. The continentals have some really good ideas, like no ring circuits for one!
Just started watching your videos...... I'm an electrician from the States.....I understand the difference between the power side of things but..... I'm blown away by the actual panels ... The techniques..... I've done my fare share of old working in historical homes etc.... But it looks like this is your specialty.... panels under the stairs that are only inches above the ground are absolutely crazy to me.... But you you handle it ...like it's just in a days work....... Your doing a great job.... Cheers!
It's very interesting to see these differences in standards; it's why I subscribed to your channel as I'm from the US. Here we always have RCD sockets in the bathroom but never use isolators on appliances.
We have a RCD on every single circuit in Norway. The breaker has RCD built in, 2 modules mounted on Din rail.
you have a picture or link of that? seems very unlikely to be honest, would be very expensive
Hi Thomas, the reason for double pole breakers is that they do not use switched sockets and polarity is not important. By the way we wire all lighting in 24v using Cat 5e CCA to all switches. I am also as sad and frequently check out the construction sites whilst on holiday. We also do not bother with fused spurs above the worktop for appliances any more.
I've worked in plenty of control panels of Italian machinery, mostly leather tannery equipment, always decent quality, well designed, and fairly reliable.
When I lived in Belgium, our switches, sockets, and breakers looked like the ones in the video; and we didn’t have isolators at all either. It’s the same here at home in the States. If you want something deenergized, unplug it, or shut off the breaker.
I don’t remember how our fault protection worked for the kitchen and bathroom. I don’t remember any reset buttons on the sockets. It may have been in the breaker.
As for the relays, pulse relays were very common for controlling single lighting circuits with multiple momentary buttons distributed at long distances or in great numbers. They were used in place of 3-way and 4-way switches, and they offered more flexibility.
Thanks for the travel vid! I watch your channel to satisfy my curiosity for foreign electrical products and practices. I’m sure getting my money’s worth today. Keep up the good work!
We in the Netherlands have also sockets in the bathroom.Because the bathroom is divided in 3 zones.And the bathetub is in zone 1,so no electrics nearby!But in zone 3 it is permitted.Because the danger is less than near the bathtub.
Having just spent 14 years rebuilding and renovating 2 barns in France there are some interesting anomalies, on one hand any new houses are supposed to be wired to the latest NF standard, including some of the latest gizmo's such as warm air distribution systems , and telecom/fibre systems yet at the same time the authorities are happy to close their eyes to old barns and houses with old style cotton covered cables with old style wire fuses and no earth cable at all.
For me however, the single most important item in french wiring is the fact that the boards are populated with double pole breakers switching both Live and Neutral, making them infinitely more secure and to my mind far Safer !
You don't really need isolators in these types of installations, as you can turn everything of in the fuseboard individually.
While the UK went with a ring, most installations in mainland Europe are a star. The star topology allows easy cutoff, of individual rooms/appliances like bathroom, cooker or dishwasher as an individual set of wires is run to each appliance directly from the fuseboard - so there is actually no need to have an isolator anywhere outside the fuseboard.
My wife gets annoyed when I stop to look at electrical installations everywhere we go. It interests me how others do things and also, more often than not, how they do them wrong! I enjoy your videos from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA! Keep up the good work!
Thomas gets Pulled at customs. ‘What is the reason for your stay’
I make CZcams videos about electrics.
‘Are you working’
‘No just going to pull apart a couple of electric fuse boards for fun and entertainment’
Hi Thomas!
About the fuseboard, not sure what the req is in Italy but in most of the EU plastic fuseboards are OK. The plastic must be fire-rated though.
In all of the EU the neutral is blue, ground is green/yellow and live is brown/black if it's a modern standard.
In Sweden we mostly have single fuses but in some parts of the EU you have double fuses which also cuts out the neutral.
Piping from the fuseboards out to the sockets/switches and pull single cables are standard in the EU. Very neat if you need to rewire something. Did a rewire in a house the other day without needing to open a single wall, roof or floor. The whole house didn't have ground (old house), took me a couple of days to fit a new fuseboard and rewire the whole house (about 30 sockets and 10 switches).
No isolators are needed. If we need to isolate something we do it on the fuseboard.
From seeing your videos what i don't really understand from the UK electrical standards is why you don't do piping inside the floor/wall/roof instead of running free cables. Doing a rewire is so handy when there's piping all the way. And you also use rings which we don't use in the EU.
We do not use isolators on our appliances here in the US either.
But we do use only single runs from the breaker panel to the appliance for the 220V-240V like HVAC, stove/oven, water heater, clothes dryer, etc.
Few answers from a German point of view:
- Ferrules are necessary if you use mutli conductor wires such as H07Z-K. Multi conductor wires are also easier to run through corrugated pipes. For some reason it seems that single conductor wires such as H07V-U go out of style. NYM cables would also be connected directly to the breakers.
- Was the lightning fixture switched by a simle relay or by an "Eltako" (latching relay).
- Isolator switches on outlets are not necessary here as we have a star topolgy and each circuit has its own fuse/breaker in the distribution panel. Ovens will have an own connection socket for three phase AC. If it's single phase only system the amperage is higher (25A) for the oven and the three phases will be bridget.
- The circuits from one room might be split in one or more distribuion boxes. Often theses are covered with wallper or paint.
- It's totally normal here to have power outlets in the bathroom next to the sink. It's an obligation to have a 30mA RCD for bathrooms. Where else should one connect hair dryers, razors, toothbrush-chargers, washing machines, flow heaters etc?
- The light switches may also be directly connected to the fixtures.
European harmonised cable such as NYY types are very well designed. I work for a cable company and we stock most European types in the UK too. As you said, H05Z-K / H07V-R etc
21ADB21 agreed I’d like to see more NYY. Isn’t it suitable for burial and UV resistant? I remember checking something out for a question from Indonesia. Our common 6242Y twin & earth has a PVC sheath sensitive to UV and can’t be used outdoors.
@@SamButlerUK conduit burial yes, not without any protection although as it's triple insulated essentially I wouldn't lose sleep over knowing it was buried somewhere. Very good cable, makes twin and earth look under developed.
Thomas, it's enjoyable to see various systems around the world.... the reason I subscribed to your channel was to learn the UK flavor of wiring. Having spent some time in the EU a few years ago, this installation looks entirely standard. Most of the residential locations I saw were 230/400 3-phase, with only some rural locations still being single-phase.
You ask _"why has the UK not adopted ____",_ I ask _"why can we not get ___ in the US?"_ For example *rolladen*, sometimes used for privacy, sometimes for security, and sometimes for energy efficiency are a rare luxury here.
One hotel I stayed at had an energy management system with occupancy status, which had a controller and bank of relays in the panelboard to control the heat/AC, rolladen, and lights by time and occupancy status. Similarly it was in a 3-row panel of the same size in that apartment. One of the reasons I see for putting outdoor lights on a relay is to have long-term flexibility in how they are controlled (wall switch, IR sensor, or timer).
On the whole, I think UK electrical standards are one of the quirkiest. Curious question: *If you were to step back from the standards which you have always been taught, and look at others, what features would you adopt from abroad?* (Yes, it does take some mental effort to neutralize your predispositions of 'home' national standards as being 'right', rather just a standard applied to that territory.)
Dwight Bennett it’s a good exercise but hard when one of the most obvious, the BS1363 13A plugtop, and it’s corresponding socket outlet, are among the safest in the world. Compared with the NEMA 1-15, the US is way behind on consumer/user electrical safety.
I do think putting the meter outside is a better idea. Also in Mexico and likely the US, meter sockets are common so they’re easy enough to change out or disconnect. Stranded in conduit is provided for in the UK regs but just uncommon, perhaps that’s something we could learn from abroad.
Hi, I am an italian electrician and i will try to answer you: the relays are used a lot for a large group of lights of for lights in places where you need to turn them on and off a lot of times like stairs. For the bathroom you can put a socket near the sink, but i can't remember the mesurements right now. The feeding of the panel was probably made with a 10mm2 cable because the main switch was a C40 AMPS. Nowadays we put several RCDS not only one like in the video because since 2010 in a residential panel you need minimum 2 RCDS. Congratulations for your videos!!! Matteo
In Spain I think people are accustomed to flipping switches in the consumer unit. The cooker + hob is usually on its own circuit, as are the dishwasher & washing machine. So if you're messing with those, you go the consumer unit and flip the breaker.
Nice to see you're having a great holiday! If you do get to Vienna again give me a shout, I'd be happy to go for a chat and a coffee!
I'm not intricately familiar with the Italian regs but here's what I have to offer:
1) Metal enclosures. Only required in the UK as far as I know, very likely a national requirement rather than an EU directive. The general assumption seems to be that anything not protected by an RCD, including the tails entering a CU, ought to be in a double-isolated enclosure and therefore CUs are preferrably plastic, especially on TT supplies (a main fuse is highly unlikely to blow if an exposed live conductor touches an earthed metal enclosure). The metal door is more of a cosmetic matter, in fact the CU isn't even required to have a door at all, with most manufacturers the door is an optional accessory.
2) Double-pole MCBs. Again, that's related to TT supplies. In some earlier TT supplies, the neutral was so poorly earthed that it could assume enough potential to earth for a considerable current to flow in case of a neutral-earth fault. To prevent that, suppliers required double-pole fusing. Back in the days of actual fuses you had two separate fuses per circuit! I bet if you snuck around some older houses in Melk you'd find plenty of old CUs with fused neutrals! In Austria that requirement was dropped in the 70s but electricians continued using double-pole MCBs. Actually we don't use true double-pole ones but single-pole plus N, the neutral path is only a switch. That's mainly neat if you're trying to isolate a neutral-earth fault as a layperson and it prevents the RCD from tripping if you accidentally touch neutral to earth when installing a new light or something like that. I recently replaced a few sockets in a building that had only single-pole MCBs and had to remind myself all the time to keep earth and neutral separate!
3) Relays. Latching relays are fairly common for lighting with more than a two-way switching arrangement because it's supposed to be cheaper to install than a bunch of three-way switches and associated wiring. I recently checked for a room that needs three switches and decided that getting two two-ways and one three-way was definitely cheaper than a latching relay and three push-buttons. In your case it might be a low-voltage relay but I can't think of any reason for using that, unless they somehow wired the light to the intercom - some door phones (interior) have a button for turning on the outside lights and that'd definitely require a relay.
4) Local isolation. Again, a UK thing and not required anywhere else as far as I know. If you're working on, say, a dishwasher you're likely to pull it out anyway and then you can unplug it. Ovens up to 3.5 kW are usually plugged in as well. Hobs are hard-wired and then you're just supposed to turn off the MCB and lock it out while you're working. The "five golden rules of safe work" are the first words of the regs.
1) Disconnect all active conductors
2) Lock out to prevent accidental re-connection
3) Check for voltage
4) Earth and short all active conductors
5) Cover or bar off any adjacent live parts
4 and 5 are not commonly used in domestic settings but I do have a Schuko plug that connects live, neutral, and earth just to make really sure no one can turn the supply back on while I'm working. I remember quite well how one day I was replacing a light fixture in the cellar and my uncle just turned the MCB back on because he wanted the intercom to work! Thankfully I heard some kind of commotion in the stairway and my 6th sense told me to treat everything as live - and as it turned out it WAS live!
5) Shutters. I've never heard of anyone considering these lightweight shutters a safety/security feature, they're mostly for keeping the sun out. Heavier shutters do double as burglary prevention but I don't feel they're anywhere near as common in Vienna as they're in Germany. I'd love to have them on our south-facing windows, it gets brutally hot on summer days! The house was built in 1914 though and adding them after the fact is a proper pain and sticks out like a sore thumb.
Wow!!! I definitely need to visit Austria, those views are breathtaking.
We use those type of breakers here is parts of Scotland, it’s standard for them to be supplied to the top and the circuit coming out the bottom, only thing is ours are single pole and not double.
Thanks very much for sharing, very interesting! Here in Germany, we use the same type of concealed installation with metal enclosure and plastic cover. Interestingly, we use single pole MCBs like in the UK and one neutral rail per RCD, but in 99% of all consumer units we use a 3 phase system... (first MCB in a line on phase 1, second on phase 2 etc). In the installation you show it looks like as if there is only one phase plus neutral. In Germany relays are used very often es well, mostly to automatically turn of lighting in a staircase after a few minutes or to contral one lamp from several switches....
Relay because the outside lights are powered from the landlord's supply ?
Hopelessly late, but it's because of two-pole switching: outside lighting needs (needed) two-pole switching (although in Belgium that requirement has been dropped because no PIR actually meets that requirement), but most commonly used manufacturers of switches only make double simple and two-way switches, no intermediate or two-pole. Using a relay allow you to use the compact double switches and still have the outside lights two-pole switched, and use multiple switches for 1 (set of) outside light(s).
Ciao Tom
I'm no electrician but I live in Italy and I have pulled a decent amount of wires in the last few years so I'm hoping I can answer some of your questions
First of all: south-Tirol is pretty much Austria, but still we have a lot in common
Rules should be equal across the whole country but everyone takes them differently, fuse boards for residential and offices are always plastic, sometimes they have a metal or glass door but except for industrial stuff everything (boards, boxes, conduit) is PVC
Everything else is pretty much as you saw it (that looks like a well-wired board) : 6mm feed in from the meter (blue for neutral, brown or more often black for the phase) into an RCD that then feeds (from the top) the breakers for the different circuits (usually only the kitchen runs on its own RCD), breakers are always with the C curve (C16 for outlets and 10 for lights) but, depending on how much space you have in the board we don't care if they are single or double
Ferrules are not mandatory but they look nice, most of the time we get away with tape and zip-ties
We use single wires most of the time because we run everything in hoses, being it copex inside the walls or conduit
We love relays for most high demand stuff when they run under PIR, light sensors or timers, just to avoid putting a shit load of amps through an expensive sensor/timer, otherwise, we use stepper relays for example in hallways to have multiple buttons turn on a single light without the expenses of running deviators and inverting switches
There are no insulators because we just use the breakers in the panel, you just need to have kitchen appliances under a separate breaker from the rest of the house
If you have dishwasher, etc on separate circuits, then you can isolate from the consumer unit. The unit is centrally located and easily accessible, where in the uk it is often hidden away or out of reach. Its like in europe they are proud of there lovely neat consumer unit, flush into the wall. Actually it also means that anyone can find isolation for everything in one central place without looking for a hidden switch somewhere. There is a lot to like here. Less boxes to cut out of the masonry, tidier kitchen without them in show. Kitchen can be remodelled with less work. Switches could fail moisture could get in preventative measures. Also think about how often you need to use an isolater. Do you constantly turn off the hob or oven? If so why? I think its a holdover from when we had ugly, hidden away consumer units and when appliances maybe not built in like they are now.
In the uk we can also house plastic fuse boards in a non-combustible enclosure, since amendment 3 of the 17th
Looks like some amazing scenery. Thanks for sharing.
Here in italy we have to use the breakers with L and N because we have the TT system and not the TN system
2 lines means biphase suply , not tn system
These are the videos I miss I’m happy to see them coming back, keep up the amazing work tom! 👍
We use the same closur her in Norway to, is to prevent anyone sticking there fingeres in and touching the breaker. It is code to use the plastic cover to cover over the circuits, also we use brown as live and blue as neutral. but is the same only colour diffrence
.. Cheers from Oslo, Norway
I've been working as an electrician for many years now and worked all over Europe. The only reason I have ever though they use so many relays is because they wire all circuits in gain and use singles cables. All gains usually go straight back to the fuse board and any connections will be made inside the fuse board. They dose seem to like running gains in between things so they run them all back to the board to make connections
Hi Thomas, thanks for the good video. I am electrical contractor in Germany. And working in Austria Switzerland and Germany.
The installation is very well done. Nobody use isolator switches here. Why do you use isolator switches in the UK? You can go to the fusebord and turn the RCD/MCB off. There isn't a need for metal enclosure. All fuse bords in normal flats look like that. Also there is no minimum space between a sink and any kind of socket as long as they are RCD protected.
Relays are used for switching greater loads (normal switches are rated up to 10A), 3phase cercuits (eg boiler), or you have more than 2 or 3 switches for the same light. It is called "Stromstoßschaltung"
If you have any questions please feel free to ask me. The only thing witch would be a problem in Germany is that are different cercuits in the same conduit. This not allowed in Germany or Austria.
Separate isolating switches are required for fixed appliances in the UK for a couple of reasons. One is that we have a lot of 32A circuits, and when connecting a lower power device, like a fan or under-cupboard lighting, it will require it's own lower rated fuse to suit the wiring. So an extractor fan might typically be connected to a circuit via a switch with a 5A or 3A fuse. Often those type of devices will have 1mm^2 or even 0.75mm^2 flexi-cables and they ought not even be directly connected to a 16A circuit.
Then there is the convenience factor. The device can be isolated without turning off every other device on the circuit.
Thomas - the type of guy that goes on holidays and packs his favorite screwdriver
I guess the main difference, why we need double polar fuses, is because neutral isn't always neutral. Historically, there were also +110/-110 pairs. The type of connection you get depends on the street wiring. So you need to break both sides if you want to be safe. It's also why most European plugs aren't polarised, as both sides can be technically live (though one is still called neutral).
"Historically, there were also +110/-110 pairs." That's very interesting and it is, of course, how the US system works but with a centre-tapped neutral.
I live in Poland and can tell you that we feed from the bottom. Usually the main switch is in the bottom row and the live bar is at the bottom of each breaker. We usually use single isolators. I believe plastic cases with a see through cover are the most popular, but people sometimes use metal too. I've never seen anyone use relays here but when I was in Germany there were relay light switches everywhere for changing light modes with 1 and the same switch. In Poland we use double or triple light switches in the same casing for that. We also have sockets near the sink. They should be IP44 but sometimes people install normal ones.
Wait till you get to thee US for things that are different from the UK.
New Jersey Bill no joke we do it so differently In so many ways
I'm from London and was working in LA installing a Security System for a couple weeks recently, blew my mind how different everything was!
LoL ya I would expect him to be saying things like 'How have they not all died from electric shock from this" but some how we don't all die with out captain safety on everything!
No isolators in our kitchens either.
Agreed. A shared neutral on a residential circuit would probably send these guys into a tizzy. Also, I don't think the Europeans have even heard of an arc fault breaker. And could you imagine the headaches if we had to put everything in the house on a main GFCI breaker? The guys writing the NEC would have hits out on their heads.
When I stayed in Italy the other year the electrics did leave a bit to be desired. The Ikea pendant lights weren't screwed to anything (just hanging by the supply wires) the was a light on the veranda consisting of an E27 holder and a 27W CFL. The other one was a wall light fed via a two core cable that came out of the wall about 1M from the fitting. This was a self catering cottage in a rural village about 2hours from Pisa.
However some of the stuff I saw in Morrocco was on a whole new level, the best being a lamp post in Marrakech with the base compartment door removed and a new feed to the lantern spiralling up the outside of the column., this was by a bus stop too.
I repaired a lighting system in a 1940s house about 6 months ago that used a low voltage relay system. All the switches had thin cloth wrapped wires feeding into a relay box in the utility room. It also had a knob with a switch by the front door and in the master that you could control all the lights. It was definitely interesting.
Ehi i'm from Italy, usually we use a plastic enclosure for the fuseboard, usually they are pre-made with a clear plastic door, the metal case here is just for estetic purpouse. For feed we use 6 mm^2 cable. For domestic use we generally use relay to turn on light from more than three switches (in these case we use button and relay). From a technical point of view i think that thi fuse panel is very well made.
Cheers from Italy man.
I've always liked the idea of ferrules, i once did a load of work for a German company in the UK(in print and packaging factories) and they made us use them even on double sockets, really neat and tidy tbh.
In Denmark 10:32 we can have socket outlets in the bathroom, as long as the outlet is farther than a radius of 1,2 meters away from any water source, and they also need to have a certain IP rating.
Outside light solution. 2 possible reasons 1 all the outside lights come together for all apartments in the evening from a central supply and the relay stops a 2nd feed coming into the flat. 2. You can also flip a switch to activate a relay to turn the lights on yourself as an over ride.
In Austria we use rails for lights in stairs when there are multiple switches or some timing stuff. This has nothing to do with current. In Austria as I heard from an electrician (working in melk) we are allowed to use 1P+N or P only breakers, however for searching errors it's easier if you could disconnect N+P
And another important thing is that in Italy we use a star system wiring so every single socket or switch wiring goes directly to the main box where the single line protection switches are this is why there is no need for independent switches in the kitchen the appliances are all connected to a protector switch in the main switch box and differential switch protection is also present there so in case of an overload or short circuit or currend leakage to the outside case of an pliances the right line protector trips in the main switch box protecting both the woring system and the saving people life (by means of differential switches which are mandatory on all electric line... usually there is a general differential switch on the main line from the electric counter and another more sensitive differential switch on every single line powering the different circuits in the house). And because we dont havevthe ring distribution system you have in england we don't need fuse protection inside plugs because if something happens and the max power is exceded the protection switch for the line system the socket is part of will trip and won't be possible to reset it untill the brocken thing is disconnected from the line.
Relay could be there if the PIR sensor doesn't have a mains rated relay in it (it could just be an alarm type of PIR)
it has, i recognise the model, www.steinel-professional.de/nl/sensoren/bewegingsmelders/is-2180-5-zwart.html
Probably an impuls relays for multiway switching.
Or a photocell for ext lights
Hi Thomas !!
There is no insulator because each socket has a separate circuit from the electric panel (no ring). So every circuit has a bipolar fuse. For a socket circuit, no more than 3500w (2.5mm conductor) is acceptable.
It is the same in Germany, France, Romania ....... only in UK is different (UK for me is USA on electric)
Nice enjoyment is a great area there, but internet access is very problematic !! 😁😁😳😳
Sorry for my English, I'm not a great writer
Interesting, in Denmark we use 13A 1,5mm2 for both lights ans sockets
Do you mean the earth circuit?
Marian Campeanu si that’s very true
same in belgium, when you use dubbel pole; sockets circuits can have up to 10 points for power (so if you have 2sockets at each point you can have up to 20 sockets) whit 20 amp fuse and 2.5³ for lights we use 16amp and 1.5² .for bathrooms we use 30ma and 10 if there is a socket whitin 60cm of a bath, shower or cane of a sink everything els can on 300 but most new instalations put everything on 30
Hjalte RMC
230x13 = 2990w = about 3KW, it is very much for a 3x1,5mm cable, Probably the circuits are very short !!! Your Plug Type K is rated at 16A. If I have time in this wechend I will test a 3x1.5mm cable with a length of 30m for one hour with a 2500w consumer ...... I'm curious what will be the temperature indicated by a thermal camera !!
A nice wechend !!
In Australia we support the use of ferrels. They are very neat and tidy, and support the ability to replace RCBOs when they fail. Relays on lighting circuits typically in commercial applications - especially where large LED installations are used - because the switching systems are PLC controlled. Australian installations support either Brown/Blue/Green-yellow or more commonly Red/Black/Green-Yellow cabling. No bloody-horrid rings in our systems, just radials. EVERY radial *must* be protected by either group-RCD (no more than three final circuits per RCD) or RCBO. Double-tap circuits are illegal.
Also we require IP44 light fittings everywhere outside where protected from rain, 67 where exposed - and the fitting *must* be earthed (no exceptions). New code requires isolators only on cooker/oven. No requirements for isolators in bathrooms/etc as power points must be minimum 450mm from water tap. All bathroom final circuits must be protected with RCB/BO. Bathrooms with a bath must NOT have any form of power point, and switching for lighting must be IP67. I believe the requirement for a bath to be electrically earthed just fell out of standard - because any electrical system must be protected..
Wow... There's a lot of differences.....
Your Lack of zoning for Bathrooms in Australia is completely inferior. As well as every application for G.P.O’s outlets which are predominantly plastic this includes 56 Series for Industrial use. 240v construction site voltage. Not the Safest. Twin Active which doesn’t have an Earth. The purpose being if you were to make contact with an active while hanging a picture sending a large nail into the wall, 9 times out of 10 you would hit both Active to Earth causing a short. C Clamps which lack an Earth Termination and has no enclosure for cabling. Except on rare instances where you can buy Clipsal fire covers.
Soldiering of cores. A big no no. Especially for Testing purposes. Every nation has its Pros and Cons with its Electrical systems. Australia’s is certainly not the best.
Hi Tom,the relay/contactor is most likely for a photo cell for the outside lights,isolators for appliances are not a requirement in the UK so long as you can lock off the mcb/consumer unit (found this out last year wiring a kitchen,where there was only room for isolators in a cupboard,after talking to NICEIC help line)the double pole mcbs are ideal for this purpose.
Relays are common in France. It allows the use of multible push switches, in a long hall for example. Only requiring two cables from each switch back to the relay. One push ON one push OFF, from any push switch
In Germany relays are mostly used for staircase lighting because there are often three or more switches.
I think the reason the breaker cuts both neutral and live is because in some places the neutral has voltage, so you need to cut the pair when you open the breaker. The relay sometimes is because you use a push button to turn the lights on and off.
Roller shutters over your windows are very common in Australia. It's common for people to be away for weeks or months travelling around so easy way to secure your house.
Hi Tom Your not sad it’s what makes your channel interesting 😊 As I’ve mentioned before I’m not an election but I love learning 👍🏻 Enjoy the rest of your holiday Stevie.
I’m an Italian electrician working in London.
I would say that first of all the plastic enclosure of the fuseboard it’s also common practice to be used in Italy and also by the looks, it’s really similar to an outdoors fuse board what was used in the video, but I’m not sure might be different codes.
It’s really rare that you’ll find single-pole used there in Italy, I’ve been working in domestic,commercial, industrial, farms, stocking cereals plant, and never seen on one on a fuse board, unless it’s used only for isolating the secondary of a transformer used in a fuse board rather than a cartridge fuse like for feeding contractors,relays or whatsoever
Relays are normally used for multiple switching ie two way and intermediate etc
I have a place in France and the two way stair switching is operated by a relay. They have be using this method for years.
I worked in Austria for 5 years, they used relays to accommodate multi switching and timing for lighting.
For by having sockets in bathrooms, the double gang socket outlets were 2 separate units and I found double socket outlets with different polarities! Plus their plugs could be inserted in any configuration meaning the outer thread of screw lamp holder fittings could be live.
Double pole cord inline switches negated this problem.
a Relays are used as timers, the light outside on the stairs will be on for a determined time and then switch off. in europe they don't use rings, all radials. that is a flat in a building, the building will have a main board from which all the flats will feed from, the meters will be in the main building electric rom and each circuit to a flat will have protection in there also. electrics in europe are always inside pvc flex tubes, much easier to maintain, repair or replace.
I'm a English student studying electronics in Italy the fuse board has to be in plastic being as I is a insulated material so if a wire happens to come loose over time you don't get a electric shock. The regulations are the say in the country and they all have to go by the rules of the CEI (Italian electrotecnics committee). We use relays more because they are cheaper and easier to wire up and command one light with multiple switches then deviators. No you don't have to have a isolater but most people do for comfort. There tends to be more robberies in the north so they protect the houses as much as possible. For sockets in bathrooms it isn't really important were they are as long as the aren't to close to splashing water.
In Rome there is no requirement to have metal case.All the ones I fitted were plastic.Maybe in commercial use.
Double pole isolators for the ones that do a good job(ABB),and cheap single pole for the ones that just don't care.
90% of the time the main line in is 6mm.
The kitchen appliances have their own line and breaker,so does the AC unit.Usually the normal sockets have a colour(blue and grey),and the appliances have a different one(blue and black).I guess it all depends on the installer.
And here we have different switches (Vimar Plana as an example).Not those big square ones.
In order to save energy, the outside lights can be on a timer circuit. There is a low voltage line which goes through one or more momentary switches and terminate at the relay.
The relay is then a time-delay, which holds the light on for a set amount of time.
Frequently the low voltage switches also have LEDs in them so they light up to show you where the 'turn the lights on' buttons are.
Or PIR sensors.
Not sure about regs, but that fuse box is the same as we had in our apartment in Germany. We have three-phase power here though, so the bus bars connecting the breakers are in a 123x123123123 arrangement (where X is the unused neutral on an RCD feed-in)
Wolkenstein Gröden... a realy nice place to stay. We do a lot of our installations there...
In SA we also take the circuits off the bottom of the breakers. In ring types. Single breakers on the live only.
In Germany every Fuseboards Inside Cover I've seen so far is made from Plastic. The Outer Casings are pretty much 50/50. Big commercial ones are metal and small consumer units that go on walls are made from plasitc
Ferrell crimps are only needed for multi stranded flexible cable because the cores weaken and eventually snap once they have been terminated, but makes the job look a lot neater 👍
That style is very very common in Germany as well, most renovated apartments that I have been in and currently live in have that same setup inside apartment.
Type C is very common in lots of country. Even my house uses Type C even for lighting circuits
SyazTYT pretty sure my fuses are Type C also, I’m in Australia.
I think that in the UK type C are supposed to be used for light industrial applications, I have them in the garage for my 16 Amp socket machines as they kept blowing the type B breaker, switching to type C, I have no issues as inrush current can be much higher.
Those shutters are there for the large amount of snow in winter. My dads place in Immenstadt had them. plus in an odd way they also provided a bit of heat insulation (-10C during the day in winter)
In the US for residential use we only use isolators for furnaces, air compressors, kilns, and outdoor air conditioner compressor units, but not on dishwashers, stove tops, ovens, refrigerators, or water-heaters. Bathrooms, kitchens, basements, garages, sheds, and outdoor sockets should be GFCI/RCD protected on new builds but many existing homes are not to code.
Ian Melzer yeah. It’s not code to put one in for an water heater, but I will do so anyway,
Keep in mind while there is a national NEC standards its up to each state / county / city to choose / adopt which version that they adopt for use. So there are many differences on where your at. iaeimagazine.org/magazine/nec-code-adoption/united-states/ Same thing for plumbing as well, up to each state/county/city what they want to do.
Not an electrician but ex telecomms so did all my own untill part P. Love your down to earth attitude. Just had new fuseboard when bathroom refitted, had to have switches next to fuseboard for bell transformer and outside PIR light 2 m from board . Also new bigger earth wire run outside in conduit . Expensive just to get 5 LED fittings and a fan!
I been working on a few sites the last 3 years and Italian sparks were the main contractors, they had guys who's only job was glanding and terminating. The boards were absolutely perfect, a work of art. I seen the same three guys on 4 different sites who only did cable tray bends and the like.
One place I work also have Merlin Gerin breakers where they come in from the top also.
Brynoize Here in Denmark it is quite common to install pre-wired boards. We had the feed to our house changed from hanging wires (from a pole) to digged cable some years ago, and the electric co offered “small” or “large” board. I asked why i couldnt have a board with just the breakers to suit my need, but this was because the boards were all prewired. Oh well, might find use for the six unused breakers at some point ...
I really want to see your reaction to a US breaker panel
run... like ... hell... i'm in canada and even i am ashamed at the junk we use.
It’s getting better in the USA
The UK regs DO allow you to use the house main switch or the MCB to be the appliance isolator too, it just needs to be accessible (sections 461-465). And we are allowed 13A sockets in bathrooms, so long as we can get 3m from the bath or shower, no rule on sinks, see 701.512.3, last sentence. So I think we could, we just don't like to do so (and in flats etc many bathrooms are too small anyhow)
The steel enclosure is also found in the UK, many council flats have them. MK make a replacement board for them called a skeleton board. My 1970s flat in Sheffield has one from these and is wired in singles in steel conduit.
Biggest pro of the external shutters is that they keep the heat out.
Curtains don't do much in that respect, because sunlight is converted into heat by the window glazing first, before hitting the curtains.
a relay is usually needed where there are multiple contacts to be made at once or different voltage to be handled. to find out you need to see exactly the electric diagram of the installation. Maybe it commutes between manual light or PIR activated light.
Very similar to US, Power is fed from the top of a device and out on the bottom. Two pole breakers are interrupting the neutral which is not allowed over here. Bathroom outlet are OK in US if they are GFCI.
Isolators are pretty much obsolete here in France, only rare few remain in older houses but we don't even use those anymore. The only time you'll see those used is in 380v+ systems so that'll be industrial and such. Not in homes or flats
As mentioned below by others, having an rcd as a main switch the DP mcbs Isolate the neutral thus stop main switch tripping out due to N-E short .
Also in my experience a lot of lights switches are momentary. Ie push on, push off. Hence relays
The reason they use emergency lighting is that they have rooms that lead to rooms, unlike the UK and it is not required in domestic dwellings.