Comparing Overwatch 1 Balance Vs Overwatch 2
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
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My problem with the OW devs are that it feels like the game has completely run away from their control, which is very much different from frustrations with other game dev teams where people disagree with overarching decisions and philosophy. OW is unique for me in that category. They seem to (unsuccessfully) try for months or years to solve a problem and then finally just take a sledge hammer to the issue. See: Tracer/Brig, Goats/Role Queue, Queue Times/5v5, and most recently Counterswapping/“We actually like tank counterswapping”.
wait wtf brig being for tracer is crazy, we had other cc in the game for her lmao McCree had flashbang, that was a skill matchup unlike brig lol
I'm not fighting anything ur saying I'm just saying that's crazy they added brig to shutdown tracer when tracer was always one of the most skilled characters in ow1
Overwatch 2 being known as project Calypso is crazy cuz Calypso is a figure in Greek mythology, who detained Odysseus on her island for several years. Just like how OW2 was in limbo for all those years
Probably because-
*_Ha HAAAAAAAA!_*
That’s a bit of a stretch my guy
@@gryph0n55 I don't think he's saying that it's an intentional reference. More of an ironic coincidence.
@@BlizzardofOze She didnt "detain him" it was his choice to not leave her and the island
@@BlizzardofOze I know. I'm saying the comparison is a stretch. The connection being drawn here is literally just "something was somewhere for a long time". I'm not even seeing the connection between Calypso detaining Odysseus and OW2, OW2 wasn't "detained" or forcibly kept, it was in active development, idk if that counts as "limbo", and I don't think that substantially connects with a mythological figure being kept on an island for a few years.
"the devs know what they're doing" someone saying D2 is fucking hysterical but bungie dropped gas with The Final Shape
To be fair very few people complain about PvP balance, so much better than Overwatch.
@@ethanshackleton You can't be serious. Pvp has been awfull for more then 3/4 of destiny lifespan.
@@gabrielfournier2511 tbh destiny pvp will allways be infinitely harder to balance than overwatch or any 6vs6/5vs5 shooter that has set characters and Kits.
@@gabrielfournier2511 At this point, OW2 balance also has been horrid for over 3/4 of it's lifespan and OW doesn't face the challenge of also having to be a PvE lootershooter at the same time.
@@bobbobson9952 I'm not talking about OW. Destiny pvp always been asz. Most mmo with pvp have different balance patch for pvp and pve. Tbf, every single multiplayer game have their problems, no matter what game you are playing, people complain.
OS RuneScape is probably the only live service game I know where the community consistently gives the devs their flowers and trusts them to make the right choices
Because the entire premise of OSRS is that the only content that gets added is based on polls within the community, and not doing that would disregard its entire premise, completely killing it.
It's also why OSRS has gotten minimal content and is only finally getting its first new skill since it launched over 10 years ago despite countless failed ideas.
You picked a bad example because it's a product that came to be solely as a hail mary to salvage any playerbase they can after the dwindling numbers that happened one update. Meanwhile they're still focusing most of their resources in the other version because despite its lower playerbase, it's still the cash cow of the two.
Also Path of Exile community seems to like devs (but current Necropolis league was a bit controversial)
Deep Rock Galactic community is also very happy with its developers.
When it comes to OSRS, its absolutely the COMMUNITY that holds the game back, not the developers. At this point the polls have blocked three different new skills and innumerable quality of life updates because "ezscape is evil". The only new skill that has gotten past the community gatekeepers is Sailing (and it barely passed at only 1.9% over passing score) which we all know ONLY passed because its a two-decade year old joke. The developers have even politely vented their frustration over the fact they put all this time and effort in making interesting, balanced skills that the community consistently rejects, putting all their effort to waste.
What about WOW?
The patches we get now are more frequent and extensive, but that doesnt mean much when a) theyre almost always moving in the wrong direction, so the games balance deteriorates much faster and b) the amount of damage done and needing to be fixed is so great with the new format that they NEED to be making a lot of changes just to catch up
But who decides what the right direction is? You? Because that's very bias.
As far as I'm concerned theres only 2 provable truths in the ow community.
1)if we have fresh new content than were happy like with juno, venture, queen, certain massive changes and other things so they definitely could do a better job making heros and fun new changes.
2) we hate easy denial abilities like illari turret, orisa fortify, mauga and brigs entire existence, bap and kiri immort, and that's just a design philosophy that we need to shift their perspective on before it ever changes so more or less patches will never fix that unless we can convince them it's bad.
I'm not even fully convinced 1 tank is bad until we remove the denial abilities and than see if one tank still feels horrible.
@@TigerBlood-m4b so basically you want killable shit right? Either ow1 or ow2 can achieve that yes, but how can a solo tank do their job when they're killable? If a team would just fall over if their tank died, then why would anyone not focus on the tank?
@@MefoWho by making all tanks have skillful midigation. than you curb the easy tank buster stuff so tanks dont need easily accessible ways to tank those easy tank buster abilities since people are fine with tracer and ana being perpetually meta.
@@TigerBlood-m4b I can't speak for everyone, but what decides the right direction is player feedback. And when most people agree we're moving in the wrong direction, it's safe to say we are, don't you think? Why is the general sentiment for this game that it's in the worst state it's ever been? Why do you think so many people just aren't having fun with it most of the time? And personally, I don't care much about new content when the existing content is still problematic. I care more about the competitive integrity of the game than getting shiny new goo goo gaga stuff added to the game. I think Juno is a great addition, but why am I left not able to feel any excitement at all about new content? Because at the end of the day, it's still going to be the same miserable experience when I log in, and a new map here and an overpriced cosmetic there isn't going to make that worth my time.
@@TigerBlood-m4b i think both 5v5 and 6v6 feel bad when things that shouldve died, don't. So in 5v5, if your tank dies, you lose (most of the time in 4v5 situations anyway), if your tank doesn't die, it's frustrating to play against. Its harder to have the tanks dont die so they can have fun and have them die for others to have fun.
Skillful cooldown doesnt make it fun to play against if you inheritedly cant kill a ball with 1.2k hp. For me, instead of the burst of joy where i make a play, its like i have a deadline to mindlessly hit (or maybe its skill issue)
Flats is really out of touch with reality:
Game changed from 6v6 to 5v5, plus they held new heroes and maps for 2 years, so of course there are lots of changes and stuff from Ow1 to Ow2, you can't compare this way
I bet you, if you had players upvote or downvote every single patch, July 9 - 2024 would be the most downvoted patch in history, wtf was that?
Ow2 is not cooked, it's burned, it's done, no way we're ever going back, because at this point, even if they go 6v6 again, too many players moved on, for Christ sake, I'm about to graduate college since Overwatch was abandoned by the devs to work on the now-canceled Overwatch 2 pve content, that's how long it's been, I know so many people that moved on with their lives and wouldn't come back even if the game got better
Why does this matter? Because in a corporate view, even if the game gets better, the numbers don't look good and that's all they see
Doubt the game will ever come back to be good
Hope I'm wrong
But thats also the Problem for Every Other Game...
People will come and Go... That like Life... Nothing is Forever, and in My Opinion OW2 is not Burned and Done... It makes me Fun, and the New Hero Trial makes a bunch of fun!
The Game will evolve to something new... And Old Players will not like it... Because of Nostalgia etc. But if the Game Does nothing the Playerbase will die overtime...
I can say though from history throughout games if something players wished for or hope to become reverted goes through media eats it like horses to hay, more coverage alongside overwatch's super casual supporting design would bring back a solid amount of the playerbase, sure not all of them alot of old players just have something better to play now but with how much time vets spend in the game the return to a format many players wanted back could be the spark to bring the game up to its full glory days, what killed overwatch 1 was no balance changes, content, or maps post Echo not the format and I really do hope the devs just give bare minimum an experiment just to see if the community would give it a real chance and if successful spike sales and keep the suits happy
Can we stop calling it Overwatch 2 and start calling it what it actually is? (Overwatch 0.83333333)
Underwatch
Cringe
@@EllinovI want you
“It’s RAWWW”
Budgetwatch
its crazy how the only warframe conclave player was in flats chat as he was talking about this
At 3:13 if anyone is looking
damn the point flats made about everyone calling everyone else a shill to the point nobody wants to say shit is real af lmao
But let’s be 10000% honest . Flats , Emong , jay3 and more can’t say how they really feel cause the contracts . No matter how much people wanna not think it’s true it is . If it wasn’t true we would have other big names at events .. but we don’t cause they say what they want freely
Theres a monumental difference between a game "*currently*" being in a bad place, and a game being in a bad place for the last 4 years... Surely you recognize that.
Comparing a rotten smelly apple ccovered in mold and flies to a bruised edible one on the grounds that "they've both been bad apples" is silly...
When devs drop bad patches every year or so, thats one thing. OW2 devs have consistently pushed out schlop for nearly half a decade...
I hate the argument "at least they are trying", like idc (as the consumer) if the devs are trying or not. I care about what they release to me. If looking at the patch notes makes me feel like they do not try hard enough, I will say that. Trying does not make a great game. The tank patch notes makes me feel like they are doubling down on the sinking ship, trying to fix the ship (aka the game) but in the process they break another part of the ship (they have made tank better, in exchange for non-tank players) like when supports were getting dominated by tank and dps so they got buffed. Then dps and tank were miserable so DPS go buffed. Then tank and support felt bad so tank got buffed. And then tank still felt bad so GOT BUFFED MORE. And now support and DPS are miserable. This has been the entire lifecycle of OW2. I am sorry, "Trying" isn't good enough.
@@Chazza-01 feels like thats how blizzard works these days. Getting on people's good side with "we're trying" and giving mid products. Same shit just happened with D4 where they spent most of the stream just to glaze how they made the new class, imo like a behind the scene documentary, and selling it for $40, while GGG hours later just fullsent 45 mins of gameplay n features for their new free seasonal league
Dps and support doesn’t even feel that bad lmao if anything this is the most balanced ow2 has felt💀
Lol this is a great comment but will flat on ears. Flats switches opinion every other day. Like genuinely lol
"Trying doesn't make a great game." Yea i've heard of few games that are flawless on release... Wait what were they again?
I want them to prioritize fun, and although that sounds easier said than done, the developers haven't even thought about the concept. It goes to show when the veleopers nerfed the fish in the Antarctica spawn to the point where none come out anymore...
Respectfully, I disagree with Flats on this one. More changes do not mean that the game is healthier. Blizzard is having to play whack a mole with huge balance breaking changes because the off-tank role cannot be replaced simply by shifting around power. The format 5v5 is fundamentally broken.
I don't think it's fundamentally broken, however I don't think they've done the right things for it to work out yet. Also comparatively to people who didn't have patches for forever, they would probably disagree to having rare/no patches again.
yeah I'm sick of people asking for a shield tank and telling me I'm not tanking when I have the most kills
Quality>Quantity every time.
@@curtisnovotnik8341 I mean even Flats said it in a recent video; if Season 11’s overpowered Tank meta is what it takes to make Tanks not feel bad, it’s not sustainable.
I’m really not sure what more Blizzard can do at this point to make each role feel like players have options and don’t have to resort to counter-swapping constantly and or getting steam rolled.
5v5 is fundamentally broken ONLY because most of the hero’s were built for 6v6. They would have to rework the entire game and every hero to make it work for 5v5, which is why we are in the state that we’re in - a never ending loop of constant balance changes to try to make the game feel good, but it doesn’t work because not every hero’s kit is adjusted to the 5v5 format, for example, Reinhardt. Overwatch 2 should’ve been a rework on all the hero’s when they switched it to 5v5, but their brains cannot comprehend that, because their logic is only based on numbers, and even though in some cases it has worked, it is very rare. The game as a whole just feels like shit because they’re focusing on cramming everything into trying to make this game balanced but nothing they are doing is working, not to mention that tank is still a fucking garbage role to play. No matter what they do, they manage to make counter swapping worse and worse as each patch drops. I’m not saying 6v6 will solve everyone’s problems and make the game feel good and balanced (though it might), but they are trying too hard to balance 5v5 when a majority of the hero’s just aren’t fit for it. It just doesn’t work. They need to sit and rework every hero in order to make 5v5 feel balanced.
I agree that the devs have been doing a lot more with OW2. The problem I have is that I stopped enjoying the game and stopped playing. If they ever do go back to 6v6, I'll be back in a hearbeat but otherwise, I'm out. I just stopped having fun but I still follow the news because the game was so much a part of my life and I have friends who still play. I like to talk to them and, even though I don't enjoy the game, i like to keep up with the news.
6v6 wasn’t all that different. I don’t get why people believe 6v6 is going to suddenly change the game for the better. It wasn’t all that fun in ow1 either. The game was much worse than ow2. I enjoy this game competitively far more than ow1.
No it was very different. The game actually relied on call outs and combos. One tank has to take a lot of pressure. I called this out when they announced the removal. Sadly it's still true. Not only that but their issues with ranked put lower skill players way higher. There are a lot of issues with two but the format change made the game shut off thoughts. There are less soft counters and more hard counters. Things that used to be a skill match up now go only one way. Reaper v hog was a skill match up now it's way in hogs favor. To do that they had to weaken reaper because there was one tank. Removing his niche. Dude has the loudest shoes and is now supposed to flank? Zen who was always balanced had to be nerfed in two. So badly that his ult can be out damaged? Ana who was always good aged too well into 2 because of her nade. Now tanks have to play rock paper scissors and beat down the other Kaiju. Sups had to be super buffed to survive. Same game.
I don’t know how you can compare the end of OW1 to OW2 changes.
In my eyes, it’s pretty obvious there are going to be a lot more changes from a 6v6 game to 5v5 game. I would hope the devs would make a lot more changes, most because they have to, to now rebalance essentially, a whole new game.
I personally think 6v6 was better just because it was easier to balance around the two tanks. It wasn’t perfect, but def feels a lot better than what we currently have. We had some bad changes back then, but now we are on a seasonal rotation of which role is OP. And all they do it mega buff that role and take forever to make fixes, and when they do, they end up needing the wrong characters or not enough of them.
Honestly 5v5 was easier to balance. The problem is blizzard can’t balance for shit. Bringing back 6v6 isn’t going to help with any of that
Also take forever to make fixes? Goats went on for a year and a half and we had double shield for 2 years. Compared to now we fox shit a lot faster
@@lunar3055yeah because they stopped supporting the game and focused on the pve
@@WilliWil. goats went on for a year and a half before they worked on the pve. Don’t even
@@lunar3055You didn’t counter their point?
I'm just tired of the developers making number tweaks and then content creators making it sound like they've add a bunch of content to the game. New maps, new heroes, new abilities are new content. I will never consider a BALANCE patch NEW content. That shit is the minimum, the Devs should be doing to keep the game alive. Hell I'm torn if i consider shop updates as content because of how disconnected the shop feels from the game.
I think this is much more up to personal interest, I'm invested in ow and whenever there is major buff for a character I always want to try it out, and in a way it is new content. (my experience with the game)
I don't understand what this video is getting at. You asked chat if they were deeply involved with another game, then and asked them to list off said games, but then criticized each one under the logic that those games don't have a community that unanimously loves them. Which is borderline impossible to ever achieve. Someone said fortnite to the original question, yet it got responded with "Don't people hate the cars?" but that isn't what was being asked. Besides, Fortnite IS in a great spot right now, as with context, people hating the cars still have Fortnite Reloaded too.
The reason I bring that up is because it seems the whole point of that introduction was to say communities always have individuals who either like or dislike the current state... which no one is arguing and is kinda fucking obvious? The rest of the video is spent saying people can't voice their opinion because it gets heated but like... lets be realistic, that goes for any debate. Passion is always at play, so why does it have to be mentioned that certain actors within the community get toxic or defensive or silent. I feel these sort of conversations detract from the actual wider question being asked.
To circle back to the Fortnite analogy, if cars were really that bad, and they were truly a polarising scenario for the game - Having month long conversations which devolve into Car team versus No Car team would of course happen. To then spend more effort calling out the tribalism of that and wallowing away that you don't want to pick a side or complaining that OTHERS are complaining people have changed their opinions is absurd. It all takes away from the actual debate of whether Cars should be as powerful as they are, and more importantly delays the solution of for example having a No Car mode.
Oh someone pointed out the obvious lol, I thought I was going crazy reading the comments
the whole point of that section was not to show that people dislike/like many games’ state, which as you said is “fucking obvious”, but to show that there is a common sentiment across many games that the developers don’t have any idea what they’re doing, and that they aren’t even trying. he believes this to be false for ow2, because unlike many other developers, they are willing to shake up the game, and they are being responsive and quick with their changes.
also, the toxicity has to be called out because it hinders debate and discussion. we’ve reached a point where quite a few people are always ready to call others shills or doomers, and it leads to an environment where content creators, and sometimes even people in comments, would rather not voice their opinion. it’s a legitimate problem. talking about it and calling it out actually does the opposite of of detract from the wider questions being asked, because it spotlights it and shows it as something that is wrong with the community. how can you have a debate when a good portion of people aren’t debating ideas, but debating intentions?
@@defaultdan7923…. It’s impossible to please everyone. It’s not impossible to have a game that’s balanced, and liked by the majority of your community. The cars in fortnite are not game breaking, the issues with ow 2 is game breaking. It’s not fun. Funny how we had none of these issues when ow first came out. The game was almost unanimously loved by everyone. Balance ruined that. Characters ruined that. And why? Because it was game breaking. You know what the final straw was? 5v5. You break a huge part of what made ow, ow, it’s going to absolutely divide your community.
@@defaultdan7923 the central point being made is its disingenuous to reduce the conversation to something to the effect of "well, every competitive game has people who dislike the balance and think the devs suck". Its not overly surprising to me that people would get heated and upset when mr. streamer goes politician mode to avoid having to confront what a lot of people think about ow2's current state.
You can see it happening in the comments too. People defending ow2 over criticism don't defend it directly but deflect with whataboutism like bringing up goats or some other stupid shit they prpbably never personally experienced whenever someone expresses they had more fun playing ow1.
@@Alexandria-i5j did you watch the vid? quite a few people dislike the cars. many of them being people who are really into fortnite. again, the whole point is that many game communities have a sentiment that their dev team doesn’t know what they’re doing.
when overwatch came out, as with any new game, there was a honeymoon period where everyone was still getting good and learning. thats how games are, ow isn’t any different
Not me about to say pokemon when fucking urshifu exists.
Or Calyrex shadow
Incineroar sitting in the corner: "amateurs"
The Tornadus beside Urshifu
Pokemon is dogshit
@JulianneStingray the new games? 100%, pvp battling? It's actually pretty good but a grind fest to get a fully competitive team, the designs of tje pokemon themselves? Mixed bag but recent years defiantly down the drain minus legend arceus designs. I'd say the mainline games are bad, the pvp is unbalanced yet still good, the actual devs are completely and utterly lazy and defiantly hold back the franchise.
Flats can be so negative and it is irritating. He asks "What games have good developers?" Community names a couple games. He proceeds to sh1t on them.
Like, ask them why. If you already know the answer then don't ask man.
I've been through a lot of live service and live service-like games over the years, and there are some constants sentiments I've noticed among their communities:
1. The Devs are always "clueless." Their decisions are always seen as bad, ill-informed, nonsensical, or backwards what the community wants. Only if the devs do EXACTLY what the community wants are they seen as being competent.
2. The game is always in a "bad state" and is always on the decline. It was "always better" at - or close to - game release, and we should go back to that time. Alternatively, they're saying this purely because the person making the claim is upset that their character isn't the strongest thing in the game, or that a counter to their character is strong.
3. "The Meta" is always oppressive, unfun, and a buzzkill. The community almost always wants the head of whatever is considered the strongest character, and they want them nuked. They don't care what replaces it... until that is meta, then the cycle repeats again.
Alternatively if your game goes on long enough people will start insisting the game was at its best whenever they first started playing, funny that.
@@zanforianit was obviously better in ow 1 since they removed so many things from the game
It's the nature of the beast. The unfortunate reality is that while OW has been in more bad states than good, a lot of players are terrible at actually identifying the issues and really good at glomping unrelated issues onto the game. Game communities filled with constant negative sentiments are not fully irrational or unreasonable, but they often are.
Online communities for live service games are filled with people who hyperfixate on the game, likely as a form of stress relief or source if happiness. When that feeling fades, as they always will, they hyperfixate on negatives because that's preferable to moving on with no form of self-soothing.
Summarizing all of the complaints as being overly-pushy customers being mean to the poor dev team is just ignorant. Maybe the issue is actually on the dev team that suspended updates for 2 years, went back on the mode that they promised was going to be released and have had slow response time to addressing issues regarding the tank role. Blizzard caused their own shitty reputation.
Your second point is a straw man straight from hell to avoid a discussion. It’s not simply when someone’s hero is not the strongest or meta. I played Hanzo when he was oppressive asf and couldn’t bring myself to play more than 1 game. In Overwatch 1 where he was a slightly bad character for a while, he was infinitely more fun. The problem of having no ability to kill a tank that plays bad as a dps is really bad.
And the first point is… I mean duh? People that play the game will generally know what they want, ESPECIALLY high rank players.
6v6 is probably not coming back, but I really hope they revert these health changes.
They literally dumbed down the game for no reason
That's the worst take I've heard yet. The health changes were incredibly necessary to combat power creep
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 they emphasized game sense over mechanical skill, which is the opposite of "dumbing it down"
@@queerparadox8328 You’re brain dead. Making it easier to hit people and harder to die to things is the opposite of good game sense. That’s the opposite
@@queerparadox8328 It didn’t combat power creep at all though
I did the math:
As of the document's creation (August 19th 2024) Blizzard have released hero changes at a rate of just over *2.3 times* what they did from August 19th 2019 until January 25th 2022.
Well yeah no crap dude, for like 3 years they released no new heroes in overwatch 1, in the beginning of overwatch 2 they released 3 heroes on the spot and continued to release them every other season. Of course if you do the math without looking at the context you would get that conclusion, but said conclusion means nothing if u look at the context. Hell, even with the « increased » rate of heroes, we still lost the amount of heroes we should have had if blizzard did not quit ow1 3 years before ow2
@@Swishyz7 I said hero changes, not releases. These calculations only take into account balance patches, not new hero releases. And, as Flats pointed out, these changes countinued until January 25th 2022, which I also take into account in my work
Yeah but more heroes means you need to make more adjustments. @@cactuscian
@@alex222333ful Point still stands that they're making changes at a faster rate than before
@@cactuscian can these people not read? You simply stated a fact without further judgement and this one dude comes here and says something about coming to conclusions and an arrogant "no crap..." and whatever
OW2 has a massive income compared to OW1, not a really fair comparison to say "hey the devs are doing more" of course they are the game is now monetized. The only thing you bought in OW1 was League tokens which you could earn for free anyways watching OW league. I got Overwatch1 from the Humble Bundle which was $12 for 7 games. So they weren't even make $20 a copy sold.
Also i bet that if you read every change they did in OW2, most of them were bad and either A) they reverted it B) dont change it. They are always micro buffing characters that dont deserved it *cough cough * Orisa and Dva * cough*. Yes other games devs can be bad, but i havent seen anything like OW2 devs 💀.
Also, the devs aren't doing more. From 2019 to death of OW1, OW1 had a similar amount of changes despite that being the least active the updates ever were. We need 2016-2019 patch notes to compare apples to apples. Guarantttttee OW1 had more content / changes, will put 5 on it
Paladins just sitting here happily, only having 1 questionable change every patch instead of every :)
These points feel like they’re supposed to be in a video about how live service models have wrecked games
I genuinely believe that games are at their most fun and balanced when everything has its own broken shit, not when one thing is broken
Also note: Coming as a Guilty Gear Strive player, I will say that this philosophy has made every character in the game fun for anyone who plays, and the devs are usually quick enough to fix or address issues with characters when they are too weak, and they’ve mostly been focused on buffing characters to have at least one stupid bullshit mechanic per character, rather than trying to pat down all the broken stuff to be consistent. Competitive games will always be broken and unbalanced, so why not make sure what few players these characters have are having fun?
I wouldn’t say most balanced but definitely most fun, and at the end of the day video games are played for fun
the philosophy of dota 2 btw, every hero has its own flavor of broken, and when everything is op nothing is, it also has the balacing i'd seen in any game, like sure you have your staple picks and some heroes struggling in certain metas, but no heroes is unplayable, just harder gameplans to execute really... also the fact that you can't pick the same hero as your enemy and vice versa increases team composition diversity.
Strive has its own small handful of over powered chars with most being mediocre/bad. Jack-O deserves so much more. I-No needs a whole new kit. Giovanna could use some buffs.
@@SonicMegaKing It does, but it has a huge variety of viable characters, there is Celestial players of every single one, and almost every character got played at evo
The problem with this is that if we make every character op in some way it’s gonna feel cheesy and make you feel like you lost to the game and not to another player. For a game like overwatch it needs to go in the opposite direction.
I don't think many changes show how healthy a game is, like to me OW1 had ∞ x times more balanced patches than the most balanced patch on OW2
I understand the point but I cant help but be bugged when people say sombra rework, ball rework, hog rework because those aren't reworks. They added one or two new aspects to the hero and made basically no changes to the actual parts of their kits that were drawing frustration. Look at Orisa. Shes a good example of a rework at least before she became the wall she was the last few seasons. Her shield, the most complained about part of her at the time was removed and replaced with spinny, halt was replaced with spear and she had a completely new ultimate that shifted from her enabling herself and her teammates to actively getting eliminations. Compared to that, these newer reworks have done barely anything. Ball can now retract on grapple and give teamates hp which are both really niche most of the time. Hog still has his one shot, is actually harder to kill than before because take a breathers a resource bar and he still provided nearly no utility for his team apart from being a meat shield. Sombra was better than the both of those but still not great. She still had perma invis and hack which were what everyone wanted to be altered. She's actually even more valuable with these aspects now that she has a lot higher burst potential. The only thing good about the sombra rework is that she couldn't just tp across the entire map with one push of the button at 1hp, and lets be honest that should never have been made a thing anyway. These are much less reworks and it sours my taste whenever I see people claim them as such because they simply aren't.
4:40 I feel like I heard someone literally say "We actually were planning a sequel after the first year of Overwatch" (not verbatim but that was the gist of the statement) and that's why the content started to drop off massively and then the higher-ups were hindering development for 5+ years, etc
is there a real chance that 6v6 could ever come back? i genuinely hope so.
Aaron is gonna publish something about it very soon on twitter, we Can Hope :)
We'll see what aaron keller days in his upcoming blog post. Im hoping he saves the game with 6v6
@@incomplet1396the only saving the game needs is being saved from the doomers who try to ruin the game off their nostalgic wants
@@Ellinovhurr durr
@@incomplet1396bringing back 6v6 isn’t going to save the game
just wanna point out that the reason why ppl in ur chat are saying that fortnite is doing good while streamers like ninja say otherwise is because ninja is part of the *comptetive* side of things. anyone who isnt a competitive player in fortnite thought that the game was amazingly fun when the new season rolled out
were things COMPLETELY balanced? no of course not. but it was REALLY fun for anyone who isnt sweating their ass off. also a large part of the complaint boiled down to the fact that building was no longer such a clear defining part of whether you won or not. things like cars, nitro splash, and nitro fists were all super good ways of destroying structures, and the pros really really didnt like that(tho now all those things were nerfed thanks to the comp players crying cuz they couldnt build their way out of every problem. said nerfs also just made things less fun so yay)
all this is to say that the devs did a really good job in making a fun and still relatively balanced season that shaked up a lot of things in the game, fortnite comp players are just really lame
I think we also forget that people only say something when they’re angry a lot of the time people that enjoy it just play the game
This, and people need to keep in mind that Twitter and Reddit are like, less than 1% of a game's playerbase most of the time. What you see going on there definitely does not necessarily represent the majority of the playerbase.
I also feel like there are a bunch of people who hate on the game just for the sake of it. They never ever give any constructive criticism and just go: "the game sucks". They also shut down anyone who has anything positive to say about overwatch.
It's Joeover for Overwatch 2.
The truth is ow2 has so many promises and almost all of them have been a dumpster fire or have just reverted back to ow1. Cut the bullshit blizzard and just reset us back to 6v6, remove passives they’re dumb, remove the ult charge retention after swapping, nerf hero hp back to 200, and start balancing from there.
The game is not fun right now for anybody and the only way it’s fun for tanks is when they’re giga busted. 6v6 is the only answer
Even when their giga busted it’s still not fun. This patch proves that. The issues with tank that are caused by 5v5 like everyone spamming everything at you and you being flamed are even more present if ur giga buffed (because your the strongest on the field so everyone shoots at u and uses their cooldowns and cc on u more) and it takes away from the other roles. It takes away from that balance of everyone being able to make plays on everyone (which was already killed in 5v5) anyways yes, at this point it’s everything but 6v6. And I genuinely hate the taboo around talking about 6v6. 6v6 needs to come back, it’s the only thing that will save this game. Nothing can fix 5v5’s issues
I’m having fun. You’re a loud vocal minority that mirrors exactly what the streamers you watch say.
One question, why should they remove the ultimate retention?
@@sansboi1760 it promotes counter picking.
@@stokedgrizzly4975 nope, been playing since beta of Overwatch 1 and have been 4300+ since season 4 of Overwatch one. I have roughly 16000 hours played in this game so my opinion is more valid then someone who fundamentally doesn’t understand the game.
There is a famous saying for league of legends. The dev for league dont knownanything about balancing, they just do it often enough that it works.
One person in the chat mentioned it, but swear to god best dev team of all time is BTD6, they listen to the community, make smart changes, listen to the community, revert unpopular changes, interact a ton with the community such as when creating new maps, and most importantly, don’t seem to care about stealing your money
I mean we can all say what we want, but out of all the communities I've seen online OW2's is one of the most consistently miserable. So do most games trust their devs? Of course not, but there seems to be something very wrong in OW2 specifically that causes this level of unhappiness. I actually suspect its the inability to 1v1 with some match ups (tank v anyone 1v1) are basically impossible regardless of skill.
2:35 destiny PvP has actually been pretty good the last couple of months. In the past it has been horrible, but now there is finally a dedicated PvP team lol. There are still outliers and op stuff, but it’s def doable to win against it and fun to play overall atm imo
Over the past several years there have been many times where PvP was in the gutter, but it’s been really fun recently
You’re probably a hunter player lol cause the incessant clone, smoke, and threading spam is absolutely cancer rn it’s unbearable to play
Destiny 2 PvP will never be even close to balanced. PvP will always be an afterthought.
@@yaboibigsmoke2733mostly play strand, but I don’t use the decoy much, pretty lame tbh. I just use all the movement stuff, grapple, blink, bakris dodge, ascension, Icarus dash with warlock
Depends. If you're talking Iron Banner, the Tribute game mode was complete ass with most people not bothering to actually play the objective.
Trials is ass, but that's more down to the fact that it's like competitive on Crack.
Normal pvp is ok though. Just wish the new hunter super was less oppressive but hey, can't have everything.
@@joleenquackoh yeah I didn’t play IB, I was out of town, but my trials experience has been fine, and I really like playing comp in destiny
PLEASE FLATS STOP THE NEUTRALITY I WANT YOU TO BE A HATER LIKE US
Man I love playing the hit sequel to 2016s game of the year Counterwatch 1.2
“I think the devs of X game do well
“NO! NUH UH! I DON’T PLAY THAT GAME BUT IT’S SHIT!”
Shill
Lets make it clear, the devs are not really playing the game. How do i know? Yeh they just changed the game meta 4 times without FIXING THE OLD META.
I also see many problem like, tank have to much pressur, dps have 0 game impact and the support role is to much dependaned on something skill, team... (supports have to many problems)
The devs cant fix the game, they need time (i dont trust them), there are to many problems to fix.
-mega toxic community bc of bad rank design
-5v5 is bad for the tank player bc they do to much
-6v6 hell to balance but still better for 40% of the Problemes
-devs are just doing their job, nothing more. (They have no othere reasson to do more)
-devs are not Working with the OW community (can we not just vote for who needs a buff and nerf and after the vote that they should buff and nerf.)
The answer to the cold open is the FGC, notably SF6 and T8
The community hates the modernized monetization, but the games themselves are beloved. SF6 in particular is one of the best balanced games to ever release. EVO numbers speak for themselves
"what do the people in ur game think?" After receiving multiple answers - "nah I don't believe u ur wrong" never seen someone ask you to speak up and shut up so perfectly
he was arguing with what they said using his experience, if you ask someone to give you an example of a cat you're allowed to disagree when they bring up a golden retriever
@@2am17 I see what ur tryin to say, but u missed my point. If I asked "what do u think of the video, was it well made?" An u said "yeah I really enjoyed it". I can agree with u, or disagree, but I can't say, "no u didn't enjoy the video and here's why based on my exp". It's not a debate. i asked for ur opinion so I should listen, not dismiss u because I didn't like ur answer
@@clemfandango6239 but saying you enjoyed a video is different than making a statement on the state of a game. however, on rewatch of the clip, i agree with his point but i agree with you that the way he phrased his responses was pretty hostile
The reason OW1 wasn't getting many updates was because they pulled the plug on it and did just enough to keep it alive until OW2 released... You need to take that in to consideraion Flats. OW2 may have "more changes in a smaller window" but they're also including all of the reworks they did when making OW2 and were playing catch up on the changes they didn't make to OW1 in the years they kept the game on life support.
Had they kept an actual proper schedule in updating OW1 while OW2 was being worked on, you'd see a lot less for OW2 and a lot more for OW1.
Additionally they had to keep counterbalancing OW2 rapidly while everyone adjusted to 5v5, a new game mode, 3 heroes, and everything else they dropped on the player base all at once.
The difference between all those other games and OW is that their game is CONSISTENTLY being called garbage while trying to convince their community their game isn’t garbage. The other devs listen and make a statement, not act like the fat ass elephant in the room with a shotgun and cig isn’t screaming and crying.
Tell me a FPS game which has devs that listen. From my experience OW have by far the best communication with the players thru game director blog posts or even Twitter.
@@gopix_ the crazy part is that that’s more than what we 6v6 advocates got. They basically told us that we have a drug problem and need to take off our crazy people glasses.
Part of OW’s problem is people are starting to become pessimistic by default.
Just yesterday I was in a game where we ran Rein, Sym (me), Junk, Juno, Ana and the enemy had Doom, Widow, Soldier, Juno, Mercy. Map was Circuit Royale.
I swapped to Cass because wtf is sym gunna do to that comp on that map and Cass is the easiest hitscan to play (im a tank main since 2016, my aim is atrocious) and our tank swapped to Zarya.
The Doom t-bags me after killing me. I say “nice bag” for fun in chat and he responds “nice team of full counters”. We made two swaps, one of which being able to check Doom and he felt immediately like he was being counter swapped.
Counter swapping sucks and as a tank main I hate as much if not more than anyone, but people in OW have stated to just assume the worst in everything and hate the game it feels. Not every swap is made to make you have the least fun possible.
But I think the game is fundamentally designed to make people have a miserable time. Counterswapping is the most pure form of that, where you swap off a hero you are having fun playing to make the enemy have less fun on a hero they are having fun paying. You literally have to make the game less fun for everyone involved if you want to win. And winning = actually being able to play the game
Having done testing,
The devs sometimes just propose changes, which, when tested, are just way too hard or easy.
Just looking at stats sometimes may sound good, but in practice suck.
I think the juno thing was a smart move to get testing if its good or not. I hope to see more changes get tested publicly
Then approved or reworked
I think it was Blizz devs that said that sometimes they just rotate who is strongest, but that was for WoW, dont know if that is a thing for their other titles.
But in Blizzard games you often get a patch note that is pretty good, but not quite there. Then the next patch hit and its like they have forgotten where they were at and instead of changing number on a hero by like 0.x-1.x, they take a huge number jump that makes no sense and everyone goes "why?"
Only reason why most games don't do micro number changes every patch is cause if they put the numbers just in the right spot for every character, they become mostly the same and it can get boring fast.
The sad truth is I want to support this game. The characters, world, everything looks amazing and I still remember the fun from 2018-2019. I sympathies with the devs, and understand they are trying to make the best game they can.
The problem isn't with the developers... OK I guess it's them technically, but I am talking more about the higher ups, the people that fired the lore team, that didn't give the PvE enough time/resources. Bobby Fucking Kotick. And sure, Bobby is gone. But then Microsoft goes and shuts down smaller studios that made great games like Hi-Fi Rush and Evil Within.
Who's to say they won't shut down OW dev team in a few months because Season 11 was a sleeper, and Season 12 with Juno isn't living up to the expectations?
What you're saying is nuanced, and I appreciate it. Players and Executives aren't obligated to appreciate or care for a game's health, and I've seen people spin conspiracies about the games they used to love to better sever the good times from the bad.
Quality vs Quantity. Just because they are making changes doesn't mean things are fresh. Shee. 90% of my games are pick 1) Hog Mauga Orisa, then pick 2) Widow Soj Tracer Cree, and then pick 2) kiri lucio bap, for the past 2 years. There was like 2 weeks of rein, and jq in there, and a dash of phara. Game feels stale af
flats coming forward and saying what's been internally killing a lot of us for so long makes me happy :) a lot of people think of "solutions" to the games they play without thinking about 1. the fact that multiple people/departments must cooperate, compromise, and not just do what they personally think is best 2. there is always an overseer/someone above you as a dev to refine/change/shoot down whatever you do 3. as a business/selling product, the bottom line is always how much money you make. Those forces prevent these "ez common sense" solutions that players come up with without any of the above in mind. Also, it is subjective- there will never be a universally loved game that's past the "honeymoon phase" that flats talked about (which I love that description). I constantly try to defend the devs because I know this job likely sucks buns and the only thing keeping them there is the passion for what they do. The pay isn't good, the communities almost always have torches and pitchforks, and there is always someone way above you who has a degree in business/marketing/accounting who's opinion of the "business" vastly overrides your own. Let's be more kind and respectful while also fighting for our interest and love for the game❤️
ssb4 bayonetta was a great great great great example of amazing game design
In the words of the great Paul Hogan: “If you wanna make a sequel, you gotta make it 1 and a half times as good”.
I do agree that the devs are trying and that there are more frequent updates. The problem for me personally is it feels like they don't seem to understand certain heroes, namely tanks, as Flats eluded to. Take the Ram buffs. As a Ram otp i will gladly take the huge amount of armor, but it addresses absolutely 0 of the pain points in his gameplay loop. What hurts the fun in playing Ram is an exaggerated version of what makes tanking in general feel bad; you're just a huge target for literally every CC ability. Ram has 0 counterplay options against it, so the armor buff often just means that instead of facetanking 5 different cooldowns and dying in 4 seconds holding block in between CC, you now get to stay alive an additional second doing the same thing. Same with Rein, LITERALLY NO ONE'S HERO FANTASY IS HOLDING SHIELD AS REIN. And yet, they buff his shield because surely the fun is being The Rectangle Guy instead of a powerful rocketpowered knight with a huge hammer. It's these fundamental misconceptions that nullify any good that more frequent updates do. I can clean my sink every day 5 times but it won't fix the plumbing.
That said, i love and live this game. I am forever grateful to the devs who made and maintain this game, nothing else comes even close to offering the je-ne-sais-quo OW has. Special thanks to whoever designed Ram, you deserve a raise.
Tbh, Ghost Ship Games is _generally_ pretty good with Deep Rock Galactic (given, Seasons 3 & 4 had some pretty contentious content, but not that they were entirely without merit...)
People in valorant have individual complaints about the direction of certain heroes, sure. It’s never “the game itself has been fundamentally broken for the 4th time in the past year by the developers. Entire roles are broken, and the fundamental gameplay loop has been radically changed for the worse.”
No matter how people felt about chamber, or iso, or anything else, valorant was still valorant. They didn’t just randomly lower the mechanical skill ceiling and drastically change how the game has worked since it’s inception down to how your gun shoots. This is such a ridiculous comparison. This video is basically “people complain no matter what game it is” like that’s some shocking idea. The more relevant question is the nature of the complaints. Neon isn’t ruining the game of valorant (nor is she even particularly good either in ranked or pro play mind you). Yeah sure valorant streamers complain, everyone does about every popular game. Valorant complaints are “I stepped in a dog poop.” Overwatch complaints are “a tornado destroyed my house”.
The difference is that people complain about those games because they enjoy and care about them, and because people complain in general. No one has to play valorant. If they want a tactical fps, there are other games that offer much of the same. Overwatch itself is just not a good game, it merely doesn’t have viable competition. I don’t play against an unkillable tank getting pocketed by a kiriko with 50 get out of jail free cards (who also just has the default advantage in any duel because why not) and think, “What a rich and enjoyable competitive experience that’s nonetheless slightly flawed in some minor way.” This game itself is bad. It’s sad because it’s an absolutely fantastically designed game in terms of in animations, engine, art, etc.. It’s so well polished. Unfortunately none of that matters because exactly 4-6 people balancing it have no business working on a competitive shooter. This is a game where Cassidy shoots a bullet with the same size as Hanzo’s previous projectile size. If a reaper/sombra is shooting a Winston in the head, he effectively has 1200 HP. That’s not a typo, 1200. I’m actually not even a 6v6er, I thought season 1 of OW2 was amazing. But this? I’d take double shield before it got nerfed over this game. I won’t even give this game the space it took on my hard drive anymore, let alone my time.
The comparison with other games is disengenuous. There’s no widespread complaints that the developers of those games have fundamentally ruined it and are making it borderline unplayable with each patch.
Side stepping Splatoon is crazy. That game gets slept on top much
I will say it makes more sense in ow2 for there to be more changes because there are more characters to make changes to. Every patch has 7 new characters that can be balanced now. And they get some of the most frequent changes
sorry to tell you flats but characters being OP doesn’t ruin valorant the same way it ruins overwatch. Valorant has dealt with worse than the Neon meta for almost 2 years with how insane jett was. It’s nothing new. Plus riot are very good at pushing out consistent patches that have improved the game massively over the past lot of years.
valorant had an issue back in the chamber meta. Nothing can tank val like that meta did
Spilo kinda touched a similar topic in his Burnout video, talking about nostalgia of OW1. People always talk about how they want to go back to how the game was in 2019-era, but it's not necessarily the balance or format they want back; it's who they were at the time and that feeling of novelty that they want back.
2:07 he said Splatoon. 🤯😄
Overwatch 2 having more balance patches proves that it is terrible though. Sometimes they just buff heroes that don’t need it for no reason.
Like they give orisa one less second on javelin spin, then give her half a second on fortify, then take it back, then put it again. They keep micro buffing heroes like orisa, dva, lifeweaver, brig. It’s not good changes, it’s just powercreep.
Also ,Why give Bob the tank passive?? Ashe was already one of the best heroes in the game. Again it’s an unnecessary change.
At least in the overwatch 1 patch notes developer comment, the things they said had truth and weight to the change. Now in overwatch 2, the devs have no idea what they are talking about in their developers comment and sometimes they don’t even say anything or give any reason at all. They also contradict themselves too like the last tank changes where they said junkerqueen doesn’t need as much health due to her smaller hit box but at the same time give her more health on shout. Like wtf??
For anyone wondering, Terraria Soundtrack, Jungle
yea, it's kinda funny the background music to a conversation about social media and blinkered game perception is a Jungle's theme.
You know what’s funny? This video just favors OW1 more. It means that even when we got updates every decade, the game had legs to stand on. In OW2, a bad balance patch for 2 weeks will cause nuclear warfare in the community.
@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 be better than your excuses.
Dawg as someone who used to play competitive splatoon I laughed my ASS off when he said splatoon those devs are NOT good
For Helldivers 2, the game feels PVP for the helldivers, but PVE from the enemies perspective
Trying to rebuttal a discrediting argument with a discrediting argument is a bad look. Really wish they taught logic and critical thinking in earlier grades.
I’m deep into both OW and DBD and let me tell you DBD devs are far more incompetent than Blizzard devs could ever hope to be. It all started With the introduction of the hollaween chapter and Laurie strode who brought with her the single most broken thing to ever bless video games, decisive strike, which just Told the killer”Nah imma do my own thing” whenever They wanted to pick you up, and not only did she come with that she came with Pure unfiltered Wall hacks in the form of Object of Obsssssion, Which showed the killers aura whenever you looked in their direction. This trend kind go continued with BHVR just adding more crack and Bane venom with every other survivor that dropped. I almost Threw my Pc out the window when ash Williams dropped and Mettle of Man was running Rampant. Not to mention the fact that they just make random changes like just straight up dumpstering Billy. Also it took for the lead director to get ducked on for Hag to get a buff and for them to nerf insta-blind builds( imagine Old bring stun with Longer duration you can see shit and you have .35 seconds to react to it or else).
Selfish take but as a 1 trick in most games, all I want is for my character of choice to be good, feel good, and have a healthy spot in the game. I'm a Lucio 1 trick so I've been hating on the devs for years. Also I play on console and I genuinely think OW on console and OW on PC are 2 completely different experiences. I have so many changes I would make to Lucio that would make him a better character without making him OP. For example Lucios healing and speed and ult should go through barriers (its sound). Lucios boop should either be more powerful or lock out some movement abilities (I don't know why people are always so mad when boop isn't trash. Even if you boop someone of map, 75% of the characters have a way to get back on no problem) Also they can take away most if not all of the boop dmg. It's not necessary and it's not what Lucio players want or need that ability to do. They need to either give Lucio either more bullets or more dmg on primary fire (Lucio's projectiles are not so easy to hit that they should do that little dmg, at least his body shots) I could go on but I already know the devs won't make these changes... Again I do realize it's selfish to only think of my character but still, good changes are good changes.
As for Valorant, The balance in the game is probably the best part about it, every time there is a completely broken meta it's always addressed fairly quickly.
(it's funny because you'll often find people enjoy a meta shakeup in the community because it changes the flow of the game.)
The main issues the community universally have is the lack of casual appeal and things to do outside of playing or warming up for comp.
The second issue is the price of bundles and how egregious it is.
Neon, is not destroying the game she is map dependent in terms of peak effectiveness like most of the agents in the game.
Coming from someone who has now 2000 Hours in Valorant and Originally came from Overwatch
I still love Overwatch in my Opinion the universe is better more fleshed out, has better characters voicelines, looks better etc.
What really did it for me was the PvE cancellation, it made me less invested and feel betrayed. Of course i still love the game, I just don't play it no where near as much as i used too.
2:17 neon is really not that bad, iso was awfully op for 2 weeks before they hotfixed him, meta is kinda simmering rn and pro teams are experimenting with yoru (along with the map based picks that have been around for a long time). I almost never hear people complaining about balance, with a few exceptions (certain characters just being overtuned and quiet for too long (DIVE DUELISTS I HATE YOU)). tldr game is good, balance is good, but money side of things is abhorrent.
Overwatch has been a sinking ship for some time now. Apex too. Im only 18 and I remember when people just enjoyed their games... nearly zero talk-back by the community. The FGC is doing pretty good for itself; heck, Strive just released their season 4 patch notes and LITERALLY everyone was happy and satisfied with them; Why? Because the devs listened to the general complaints of the playerbase and fixed the game appropriately without systematically destroying any of their characters. Evo was a blast with Street Fighter and Tekken. And we can say whatever we want about Valorant, but its pro scene is booming and people are willing to spend money because the game itself is inherently okay, unlike Overwatch and Apex. People are mad not because they wanna be, but because we're being taken for idiots. If some people like Overwatch 2 and 5v5 then cool, good on them, whatever, but it's the fact that one of MY favorite games was taken away as a result. To me, there is no argument to be had, the original game was infinitely more fun. I was forced to play this instead of that. I legit cant log onto Overwatch 2 anymore without wanting to bang my head against the wall, it's that bad. "Oh, just get better..." "Someone's bad at the game..." "Overwatch is in the most balanced state it's ever been in🤓..." These are genuinely the only things 5v5'ers tell me anymore and Im at my end with this game- the only reason I haven't uninstalled is on the off-chance the devs wake up and give us the good game back. And for reference, Im not even mad anymore, I just feel bad for all the OW content creators who are trapped in purgatory right now. Sorry, I needed this rant. I'm better now, excuse me. I'm just so tired of devs not caring about the product they're trying to sell only because it's free and cosmetics sell.
I understand where you’re coming from, but at the same time, just because they’re trying doesn’t mean they’re doing good. Ow1 had no problem nerfing characters as long as it kept a team focused playstyle. Ow2 devs have been tearing down the teamwork aspect of the team based game *and* rarely nerfs characters. Also, most of the reworks didn’t rework the character at all. In ow1, if a character was a genuine problem that they had to rework them, the new character played completely different than the old one, and most of the problems of the old character was removed. Ow2 reworks simply don’t do that. Ow2 might have dug more dirt, but I’ll take a single well than 100 holes halfway to water any day.
Saying people enjoy what the devs do for dead by daylight is wild that game has fucking YEARS of something being stupid broken
Apples vs Oranges
??????
Video starts at 4:00
Not every company have good communication.
Yea remembering the "200 years of combined experience" meme
Game must be in a great state if we even have to talk about this in the first place.
Edit: Just gonna add if the game is more balanced aren't less changes needed?
I agree. I think more changes just means that they cant get it right.
To Flats's first question, I'm a big Hunt: Showdown player and the devs have been pretty uphill since I started playing in 2020! There's never really been a patch where I've gone "WHAT WAS CRYTEK THINKING WITH THIS," especially coming from OW since 2016 open-beta lol... Hunt's getting an engine upgrade/Chapter 2 style big update come this mid-August if you wanna try it out! Been pretty sick getting back into the groove for this "relaunch" update :)
As someone who played DbD a lot and lived through "I think we did a pretty good job so far" meme I don't think the devs know what they're doing there but I've seen a lot being talked about spaghetti code. Every patch something would break and they'd have to fix it it was somewhat funny(but sometimes it did suck), that didn't push me away from the game tho, when I left there were so many unbearable killers to play against that it just wasn't fun to me anymore.
That being said, I never felt milked for my money with DbD, a completed pass gave you enough for the next one, I liked skins that were f2p and the majority of the paid(I mean the licensed ones that couldn't be bough with Iridescent shards) DLCs didn't feel like a MUST HAVE, they had a huge variety in perks so I was okay with missing one perk.
can someone inform me of the project calypso thing? I've been a little out of the loop for ow content
Not a single one of those games which people said “people usually don’t complain about balance” actually has good balance.
Flats i tend to agree with you on most of your rants, but please be honest with people. You are biased towards OW and its dev team. Even if its just a little because its your literal livelihood.. without OW youd be flipping burgers or whatever normal job. So obviously youre going to be biased towards the thing thats paying your bills. Its not shutting down your opinions. Its just asking you to do it in good faith with no bias which you cannot do..
I agree that no matter what, players aren't going to enjoy the balance changes, but the fact that I can't kill a sombra that's being healed by lifeweaver only as a nanoed dva with all abilities is ridiculous. I get that they are coming out with patches quicker than ow1, but some of these patches just don't make sense. I've mained dva since ow1 back when she didn't even have her rockets and seeing dva not be able to kill a dps character when nanoed is BS
really enjoyed listening to this, I feel like there is a lot of tension in a lot of gaming communities where nobody is happy, and nobody is allowed to express their opinion. I hope everyone will start chilling a little more, one bad patch isn't the end of the world. I hope everyone will be milder against one anorher and just lets people play the games they enjoy. Have a good day y'all
The Finals devs had a rough release and the game still suffers but the devs have consistently listened to community feedback and kept making the game better.
Yea, I love the Finals! I think they are more careful with their community, they're fair with balance, and give them a silver medal for me for realizing Battle Passes are toxic amplifiers and making it near benign to complete it.
As a big Apex guy, currently sentiment for the game is at an all time low. With the changes to season pass and how ranked is never in a good spot. Ranked specifically has changed so much over the past year the devs have to be clueless in some way apex has been pretty dreadful spanning back to the rat meta in ranked a couple seasons ago. Character balance is actually in a decent spot though
That game has a whole other level of problems though. When you have a hacker installing and enabling cheats on pro players' systems mid-match there's some big problems. And everyone just forgot about it in a week and kept playing...
@@ZeroRed78 that too
Kinda wanted to get back into Apex (left when Vantage was new)
I'm really hard on myself so I normally stay away from BR's, but I loved Apex because it felt like every weapon was able to win a fight more than other BR's and their "intended garbage" weapons. Ironically the Season Pass rework seems to be intended to better serve returning/fresh players rather than cater to dedicated ones.
The thing with helldivers is the toxic possitivity in the community. Some of us have been complaining about the balance and the nerfs since they started happening.
Its got to the point that the ceo had to step down to to be cco to manage the bs the balance team at arrowhead is pushing out.
actually true, it seems like some people over there are allergic to seeing criticism of the game.
@@defaultdan7923 or are openly calling for weapon nerfs in a pve game... they seriously need to take a page from deep rock.
@@elfireii328 It's rare, but if something is too powerful it stops being fun, so you don't want to use it in that state. Things being unfun due to being bad are far more common though.
@@wellplayed6061 admittedly the railgun one shotting titans is a bug, but they overnerfed it to be just a bad weapon and never rebuffed it.
Thr sniper changes were okay but they still suck to use compared to other weapons that do the job easier and better. The fire changes were dumb because it also made hulk flames one shot you. The shield gen was hit hard, but still usable.
Most of the other weapon nerfs sucked too.
They refuse to buff the hmg mag size to make it more fun to use (giving it more bullets to shoot would be strong, but not over powered). The arc thrower was nerfed (less hit stun, inconsistent targeting, lower effective range) vs bots and still buggy in general. Nerfed the quasar (doubled recharge time) rather than buffing the eat, spear, and recoiless to be on a similar level (should have halfed the reload speed/recharge time). Over nerfed slugger (completely removed hitstun, lowered damage because the game was new and people didnt have alot of options), etc
The only good changes started happening once the new cco came in.
Buffed reload speeds of machine guns, increased call in speed of precision strike, made turrets way more blast resistant, etc.
@@wellplayed6061 seperate comment, but deep rock galactic is a perfect example of everytging being strong letting players play the play they want in any situation.
The only reason im playing helldivers is because I like the art style more and caving hurts my brain.
Theres always some drama in every game. Games tend to go for the worse the longer a game lives due to the devs having to add new things to bring back attention and how unbalanced and insane some updates are
I was watching the chats response as you were asking them questions and my first thought it how many of their opinions are their own and not what they have heard from streamers.
You know thinking about the amount of hero changes in OW1 vs OW2, wouldn't it be fair to say that OW2 numbers a bit inflated due to them changing full on game systems that affect the entire roster rather than fine tuned patches for specific characters. I mean I don't remember them doing changes of that degree in OW1
The number of changes put it into perspective on how much the devs do care and listen and want to get the game fair. I think its been too long that people remember the days of OW1 where we'd sit with S tier heroes for almost an entire season with no changes.
I still love this game and thanks the devs for keeping it going. The unfortunate is i do really love OW i got a bunch of my mates in during OW1 but they dont love the game like i do. With s9 and all the changes recently my DPS friends say its not rewarding to Eliminate anything, sometimes it takes running a marathon of effort to just Eliminate someone now. Some characters just dont feel as good as they used to, Hanzo is for sure a big one. But i trust the devs will hear all the feedback and try make it a great game again.
I think it's fair to say that 5v5 and 6v6 have their own pros and cons, one is not outright better than the other. I don't think I need to go over the details. The thing is, as we can see, there's always people who enjoy 5v5 more, and people who enjoy 6v6 more, people who like the current direction the game is going, and some people do not. It is impossible to make everyone happy. Then it is up to the devs to decide who to cater for and there is no right or wrong. Imo, that's why there needs to be so many changes. Since it is impossible to cater for everyone at the same time, changes can be made to shift that favor from time to time, and like flats said, you don't have to play the game if you aren't enjoying it. We can argue and criticize on changes made, but not the people making the change or the people liking/disliking them.
Whoever said that the Splatoon devs know what they're doing when it comes to balance patches must be capping. Balance patches take forever to come out as they don't operate like most games do. They operate similar to how OverWatch 2 was working at launch. And when they do finally put out an update it's very minor and usually doesn't fix much of anything. I think many would also argue that they release a lot of weapons with some bad kits. I can say however that unlike most games Splatoon doesn't have many periods where it's completely unfun to play.
I'm not going to pretend that splatoon is (or has ever been) balanced, but does the community know that and has accepted the fact that it may never really change (yes). It's still somehow really really fun to play though, it's like every weapon has its own niche, which, I guess, helps with making the game feel balanced a slight bit.
Yeah splatoon devs are very conservative but I can say that their patches have never actively made the game worse they either matain the current meta (which is generally quite fun) or improve it with more options.
It may not be balanced weapon wise but the mechanics are balanced and the game is fun so consider me satisfied.
@@GaminApe splatoon is fun, ow 2 isn’t. The issues with ow 2 are no where near on the same level of splatoon. It’s near impossible to fully balance a shooter. But nothing is game breaking in splatoon. I swear none of you seem to understand why people have a problem with ow 2. Or why it’s been so decisive and detrimental. This isn’t a small criticism, the game is fundamentally broken. You take a formula that worked for years and take it out, your game is going to have problems.
My thing with OW is this: they promised us many things and they don't deliver. I'm craving Hero Bans since they hinted it. And heroes themselves are a problem as well, if you could ban heroes (divided by classes) which would them be? Most Likely:
-Tank: Orisa or Mauga (off picks Roadhog, Sigma)
-Dps: Sombra, Widowmaker (off picks Mei, Phara, Symmetra)
-Support: Ana, Zen (off picks Moira, Mercy)
I know it depends on rank, but there's a reason why these are so heavily critiqued and yet the most played.
I kinda just want 6v6 back for that experience, even if it wasn’t any better. Sure, two tanks might break the game but it’ll be more fun broken like that
Okay Flats, we get it. You're being paid off. You can stop now.
i like the idea of them coming in to fix major balance issues very fast, but also its very easy to avoid that being an issue to begin with. they end up making so much more work for themselves on the back tracking every time they over tune a tank. (tank player btw.) I wonder how many times they have changed stuff like that, just quick and swept under the rug like last months victoria secret catalog. I Agree that the teams sentiment on tanks needs to be severely re-evaluated, because giga-buffs to every tank at once was not a brilliant move. I think a season with no hero or map or anything is due so we can get back on track with what needs to be adjusted for every role and hero.
Edit: I don't think that if they make a bad update they should stick to their guns and keep it up, by all means fix it. but pay attention to the changes your making so more labor isnt needed after every major seasonal or mid season update.
my friend had a fam member in blixxard and he got an OW2 bottle in 2018, and its same logo, it was in the works since the beginning probably
I love that balance is in such a horrible state we have to compare it to overwatch 1 to be like “guys it’s not so bad look they’re changing so much!!!!”, even though overwatch 1 team was same team that brought us Brig.