Idle Games: The Mechanics and Monetization of Self-Playing Games
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- čas přidán 7. 05. 2017
- In this 2015 GDC talk, Kongregate's Anthony Pecorella examine the core and metagame loops of Idle games to understand what's so compelling, why the retention is so insanely high, and why they are even very viable free-to-play revenue generators.
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Idle games started on IRC. They were around for years before moving to the web and other places. They were a bit different, where the challenge was to stay connected, and utterly inactive, as long as possible. If you changed your nickname, or lost connection to the server, etc, you would lose experience points or such. One that I 'played' had you gain experience over time, and also random events which occurred like battles and found items and other things.
What years did you see that style more active? Sometime in the 90s, mid-2000s?
The important thing to take from this is how monetization strategists figured out how to add an energy systems to ANY type of game without actually putting an energy system in the game.
I love playing so-called ‘self-playing’ games, especially the ones with the rankings and competitions/events as I don’t have much time to spend on ‘real-games’,…Not every idle game is worth playing, but I love interacting with other players inside the game through chats,… what I lately find in War Clicks.
Anthony, thanks for your speech, it was a pleasure listening to it!
Evolution of game length (years not entirely correct because of satire reasons).
1976: Get your 1 minute arcade games at home now with this Atari system!
1986: Sure, you can beat Super Mario Bros. in under ten minutes, but it has good replay value!
1996: Here is another 80 hours hardcore game for dedicated players.
2006: Here is some paid Horse Armor, so your horse looks better while you play through our 250 hours RPG.
2016: You can buy multipliers for your idle game, so you play even less while you don't play our 5000 hours idle game.
2026: We made the augmented life simulator so you can live in real-time while you live in real-time. With a playtime of up to 100,000 hours you can start playing at birth and end at death.
2036: Our AI has created the ultimate game. Unfortunately we don't understand anymore how it works, but all other AIs love it. As it's self-evolving this will be played until the end of time.
Lmao, hoping I catch the end of infinite time...
To play idle games, of course.
@@brandon0981 Thanks, kind person!
Congratulations, you predicted Facebook's metaverse (in the 2026 line)
@@nouveauprofil Which shows that realitz is indistinguishable from satire.
with apple vision you were almost right, it came 2 years earlier than your prediction
What I kinda want to have on mobile platform is some sort of "supply line management" idle game, that is similar to how you play factory style modded Minecraft. The goal is to create the highest productive system rather than having the number go high enough (because, well, you really need those UU matters in your DSU that much?)
Maybe I would ended up making my own game but I really hope that other game devs can try such thing as well, because that's like, ultimate math exam that is actually fun rather than super frustrating, if that make sense.
There's too little to try on factory idle. The math is way too simple. Also I think I might try making an idle game engine to start with XD
There's an android game called Assembly Line that is basically what you are describing. The material producers output at a certain rate, the crafters make items out of materials or other items at a certain rate, and it is all sold out of one or several export boxes. The placement of pathways that separate and combine materials is where the players creativity comes into play since there are practically innumerable possibilities. The art style is pixelated and it was made in the Unity game engine. It has my moderate recommendation. I didn't find it as fun as I thought and I'm not sure why since it fits the criteria of everything I want from an idle game. I think it may be because of the strange progression and lack of incentives to upgrade or rearrange your lines.
47:43 That was my first idle game, and one of my first mobile games. Loved that game! Still have an old phone devoted to that save specifically. (I should go dig that out)
When talking about idle game history i wonder why Ogame wasn't included there, i mean that's exactly the first idle-mmo game ever hitting the big screen.
Thank you for the great presentation!
3:33 I used to watch that stream all the time, and whenever he talked everyone got so exited xD
Interesting talk. It's nice to see that unlike a lot of mobile games, many idle games have mechanics that naturally encourage retention. Artificial restrictions grate on me, especially since they always give you the option to pay real money to keep going.
I have mixed feelings when it comes to monetization. On the one hand, they need to make a buck somehow since free games still cost money to make, publish, and keep running. Still, some of this stuff is flat out exploitive. What he describes in idle games is less bad than what I've seen in other games, but that doesn't really make it good. So many games, even some paid games, seem to have intentionally slow progression that you can accelerate at the in game casino that costs real money to play (loot boxes and gatcha systems where you're basically stuck gambling for progress). In my opinion, you should feel good about spending on a game, enhancing your experience, rather than feel like you're being blackmailed into it if you want to make any progress.
Also, bragging about designing an ad that pops up right where a player is going to be clicking/tapping is digusting. Getting hijacked from an enjoyable activity to some webpage doesn't make me want to buy products there. All it does is make me mad and spur unhappy tickets. Considering every game I've played that stooped to using that tactic stopped after less than a week, I can only assume that I'm not the only one who reacts that way.
Thats a really good point. Its something i thought about too. Many of the games that use time-gating make the gameplay seem meaningless, because it would easily be able to remove those time-restrictions and offer the player the experience without. So by adding those time-gates and "offering" the player to pay money to go around them only shows that you balance your game around those mechanics, which makes the time you invest into the game bloat artificially and doesnt particularily offer more fun.
There are other kinds of elements that you could argue are time-gates: " i have to farm X monsters until i have Y monster to buy upgrade Z". But those involve gameplay and are not just artificially constructed barriers to earn money.
I loved seeing the cahrts about progression, i feel like so many mmo rpg need to have this level of thinking. Then the microtransactions is cool to hear but definitely not as fun to watch as a gamer
I wonder if these numbers still hold up today 2020
I want to find out about these 1000$ spenders. What compels someone to spend that much money on a mobile game?!?
I think there's no other answer than grave addiction.
Also the psychological aspect which these games try to appeal to is explained in the thelegend27 "advert" which ironically unmasks the core of the game (pay alot of money - like 5 digits - to become the best). I think on a basic level it's the same reason why girls post naked pictures on public sites - they try to get attention.
Also the addiction is actually less targeted towards the game, but more towards a part of the brain's gratification system which the game hijacks.
I've likely spent 500-600 dollars on pokemon go *shrug*
It's a similar business model as casinos. The longer you play, the more you're spending/losing. The prime folks to target are people with a lot of free time, deep pockets (or high credit limits), and who don't have a lot of other options for their leisure/entertainment. Typically that gives you (A) the elderly and/or disabled, (B) depressed and/or socially-avoidant people, (C) lonely children with access to parents' money, and combinations thereof.
Humans (most/all primates, really) are pre-wired to crave social interaction, and suffer greatly when it is absent, or worse, withheld. Essentially you're trying to have your game take the place of that social interaction among populations that are in some way deprived of it.
In some games a persons truest personality can be explored or revealed without nevative consequence. They dont pay to be the best in game, they pay to be free.
@@andy02q i wanted to play an idle game but thelegend27 keeps kicking my ass
Math major. Doesn't tag graph axis.
Nightmare.
The first Idle game (that we could find) is called Ganymede. It was made in 1982 for the Commodore VIC-20 and was rediscovered by reddit users u/avatarofentropy and r/JadeE1024. There’s currently a port being made by Jade.
IdleRPG?
odd really, but I suppose people have less focused attention each day. we have deluges of information to contend with, marathonical work schedules that cling on to the employee way after checkout (did you get the email, prepare the presentation, complete the proposal, review ... etc). And all of this as well as the creativity of designers gives shape to this look but don't touch craze
really interesting, and very in depth
I'm watching this while playing universal paperclips
Me too, except I’m playing universal paperclips, cookie clicker, antimatter dimensions, and crank at the same time. Please help I’m so tired.
3:07 I may have spent more time playing the incomplete cookie clicker I'm making than actually making it...
I really like idle games, especially the ones with more to it than just clicking, waiting and buying an upgrade every now and then. But I would never play an idle game, that just wants me to spend real money. Games like cookie clicker or candy box have this "made by a programer for fun" charme and humor to them, combined with rpg elements for the candy box games and more complex mechanics, like grandmatriachs and many unlocks, like ascension upgrades and achievements, for cookie clicker. They even let you make an own idle game for free with their engine.
In comparison many of those only made for profit smartphone games feel lifeless, even with cool and flashy animations.
need captions 需要字幕
Humans love seeing numbers getting bigger
They love it even more when they don't have to actively input much themselves in order to get said bigger numbers. Instant gratification and all that. Especially nowadays with the average attention span being as bad as it is.
I just played Adventure Capitalist. Why the hell is it so addicting? I dont even get addicted to any mobile games. That game made me click on 2 rewarded ads. I've always wondered why people play mobile slot games, and I still do. This game is nothing like slot games. If you can implement this into a slot style game, then you'll hit a jackpot. Slots have a larger group of players.
My key take away: Idles game are the better "energy" games 16:50
I had Cookie Clicker opened when I saw the notification.....
I opened it during the talk. Big mistake.
I think Tamagotchi was also an idle game back then...
but if you didnt come back it would die 😂
What are the names of all of these games
IDOLGAMES?
jk, great talk about this odd phenomenon
Clicker hero it's actually better to keep all the gilds on the same hero. It was also the worst way to spend the premium currency. The hero that gets all the gilds depends on where you are in your progression. (Highest Zone Ever)
Idle games are basically a drug, you feel like you're doing something, without actually having to do it. The perfect artificial high. Why's it so so successful? Same reason any drug is. The escape from reality. The unmet desires and needs we have. Bodes well for the future innit.
Adventure Capitalist :D
tukkun updated anti-idle?
how the hell did I miss this
don't forget that he's planning an AI:2 :)
Yeah, I know.
And I just realised this is from 2015, my confusion has been explained.
Same here actually! I posted the reply before I noticed the "2015" in the description :D
Annoying they posted this so late. pretty sure I saw this somewhere else too...
Anyhow, nice talking to you, random internet stranger ^-^
No mention of the classic idle games?
PQ? no?
Does PQ stand for Progress Quest? He did mention that.
I must have missed it. Timestamp by any chance?
Kevin Booth They mention it around 4:20
Some of us just doesn't have that much time to play anything anymore...and welcome easy challenge and small satisfactions from time to time. Idle games could be a slot machine or something better balanced, specially since the introduced watching videos instead of straight up paying
How I play idle games: play for 5 mins.. get bored... hack the hell out of the game... "win"... repeat.
1:33,-1:34 channel over a million subs.
speaker: "some games have you prestige as fast as once per day!"
Antimatter Dimensions players: those are rookie numbers, you gotta pump those numbers up
ah yes, we do be ADing
@28:40 They do now! hahahah by the way im a game dev and love these videos, im doing youtube too.
It's hard to call it "playing" when you open it and it just runs...
In some strategy games or building games I often have a goal to make it idle game or I should say create equilibrium so game can run w/o any my input.
The most popular idle games play like what you described in that second sentence.
Thank God for Cheat Engine and Game Guardian.
Pretty sure the first questioner was the CEO of Pied Piper
kongregate was pretty cool but those idle games are poison man
Of course Idlegate is the one that gives the talk about money milking idlecrap.
The rise and fall of game stop.😂
So sad to see how many people call these "games", that are everything but a game.
Very talented developers spend years and lots of money to make cool games and no one cares, while these things not only gets more and more popular, but also make lots of money.
I don't even see adding anything valuable to people's life, compared to many other games.
Perhaps I am getting old and not understanding new generations...
Nah it isn't an age thing. Don't tell yourself it is either. You're absolutely right to think the way you do about it.
@@justsomeguy727 thank you, you are right!
why not just go back to paying for the game - get rd of freemium and in app purchases. stop pandering to gamers whims because they demand free games. slippery slope
Who else’s watched to the end
If you CHOOSE to watch a GDC talk, you're probably going to make it to the end.
I tried but I couldn't. His "Uhm" every 5 seconds drives me nuts.
This talk was the antithesis of Warren Spector's talk. These games are just using the players as money-generating machines, often using under-handed tactics (the 'Make it Rain' game especially). Every single mechanic is designed to addict players and cause them to spend as much cash as possible. There is absolutely no substance to these games whatsoever. The monetization structure of these games is almost as bad if not as bad as gambling.
As someone who actively seeks out new idle games to play at least three times a week, idle games are like any other game genre; there's good and the bad. There are too many sub-genres of idle games to lump them all in to one generalisation, there are clicker genres, incremental genres, MMO games, board games genre.
If you've only found idle games that have "absolutely no substance" then I think you're looking for the wrong ones.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was referring to all the games of this genre, I was referring specifically to the games and concepts presented by the speaker, Anthony Pecorella. This guy is a 'suit' in the worst way.
Good point, It is really a dilemma for game developers though, It can be more enticing to develop these games than others because : a) Target Audience: These games are immune to reviews, I mean, a critic bashing this sort of game does not have as much impact as some spoiled brat or child man crying about things like how Dead Space 3 has not followed Its survival horror roots. b) Development Effort/Cost - These games are much easier to develop and cost next to none compared to other genres, It is like the difference between climbing a hill vs climbing the Everest. c) Risk - The game may fail but the loss is surely laughable compared to other traditional/entertainment gaming. d) Profit - Who Does not like money rain ? e) It may be a step in the door for developing "real" games, It could allow the developer to cash in, hire more professionals, elaborate a true game, something like "make worse so It will allow you to make some good", of course things can turn out to a dystopian mind set and in no time the only goal is to slave everyone's time and turn humans into spare change machines, greed may take over and...could be the end of the World as we know, though most humans want to create something meaningful, to be proud of, so I believe we should keep the hope alive.
I understand where you're coming from, but I still think the ends don't justify the means. I have many dreams that require money to get off the ground, and there are plenty of less-than-honorable ways of obtaining that money quickly, but I choose not to take those paths regardless of the ultimate goal. I'm not saying a simple phone game or whatever is out of the question as a stepping stone to greater projects, just don't be sleazy with the way you go about profiting from it.
I don't think I'll ever be a fan of the F2P structure simply because it is basically a requirement for a game's mechanics to be foremost about addiction (get the player hooked on the game) and compulsion (frustrate the player enough into spending cash to alleviate the intentionally designed problem), and enjoyment comes afterwards. I like the visual-only purchase system much better, such as in Team Fortress 2, but it requires extreme restraint on the part of the developers to not take it further, as it is far less profitable. With the conventional upfront purchase of a game, the player doesn't have to worry about being manipulated by the game's mechanics for anything other than his/her enjoyment.
I get your point, Vertex, but I believe you fall into the group of people that think that all F2P games are designed to make the player frustrated so they turn to spending. (with the added "benefit" of their sunk-cost fallacies). There are games such as Tyrant Unleashed, Spellstone or Animation: Throwdown which churn out players that spend $5-10 and rake in a disgusting amount of money, then there are games like the GemCraft series, Burrito Bison, and Learn to Fly that are also F2P, but allow users to either watch adverts to gain small bonuses or, rarely, offer no bonuses at all.
The latter games don't even give the option to pay-to-win, but are huge successes regardless. The idle game community is growing ridiculously fast on Kongregate now, and even in 2015. It's just like any other "new generation" of games, like Tower Defence and Launcher games.
I can't believe there are people out here who can have friendly conversations about idle games, a lot of people have really bad opinions about them and mostly for no reason either.
lets not pretend that playing idle games isn't embarassing
Timewaster for humanity games...
Zeltos are you implying there are mainstream games that *aren't* a "timewaste"?
Well, the kind of game most common people tend to play, like shooters, or platformer games, do tend to be there just to waste time (though some help motor skills - eye hand coordination, that is).
There are a few games that do teach stuff, though. I remember learning so much stuff when I was little, by playing Civilization in snes. Even made me remember the name of early historians like Herodotus (which even some adults don't know, even now). It also made me like history, so much, it made me a fan of history documentaries.
Then, besides games in (well done) historic settings, many story based games can also help you think or teach you things. Adventure games, visual novels and or similar games. Some because it's like reading books with choices, others because in the process of clearing a puzzle or other obstacle, they sometime actually teach some tidbits of real information. Though, I must say this is more often true of games made overseas (games like Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney, which is an actual simplification of the Japanese court system, or Professor Layton). Doubt you'll learn much from playing a game like monkey island, though. Then, there's also edutainment I guess...
Idle games on the other hand, are, more often than not, there just to make you feel good... or help you pass the time... guess they are great for people who don't have the time to play any other kinda of games.
@@mikeluna2026 How could you tell a game help any skill? Then you cant claim that Idle game is a waste of time or just 'feel good'
As you said, if the game is well made, then it could bring alot of useful things. Thats also the case to idle genre which is very new born.
@@CamoronZ How can you tell games help any kills? Well, first of all: because actual scientists have already done research about it in the past. They are the ones that discovered games can help your motor skills, problem solving skills, hand eye coordination, etc, which specially bring to mind platformers and other kinds of games where you need to time your actions precisely while looking at your screen. Games that have you clear puzzles can help problem solving, etc)... And because some developers deliberately try to teach you history or other real world knowledge (like The Oregon Trail about the West, or Cashflow 101 which teaches you about investing and real state, etc). Anyway, if you read my post again you can see I never said that Idle games are "always" just a waste of time. But, obviously that depends on the developer. The problem is not very many devs out there are trying to make you learn practical useful information. If you want to make an clicker game that is more than just a simple click on a button, then it's your job as a dev to make it. Teach people how to do their taxes or give them bits of historical information or something. Clicker games don't usually help with motor skills or hand to eye coordination, etc, but you can play with the idea I guess.
You can literally pay to watch a number go up. Wow.
The whole "he should probably get an art budget" comment kinda put me off. Joke or not, it was rather unprofessional. Decent first half of the talk, though.
Found the party pooper. It isn't a crime to point out glaring shortcomings in a product.
These idle games are just silly. Their only _reason d'etre_ is to drive up ad revenues for webgame portals.
BdR76 raison d'être*
...It's called a fucking incremental game, automatically lost all credibility, lmao.
yeah... when people comment before watching
You nerds and your proper nouns
+RupluttajaGames I read the first four characters of your comment and I can tell you for a fact that you are wrong, because these are actually called incremental games. You automatically lost all credibility, lmao.