HDR Tone-Mapping Explained: Sony A1, LG C7 vs Panasonic OLED TV
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- čas přidán 22. 05. 2017
- We explain different HDR tone-mapping algorithms using the Sony A1, LG C7 & Panasonic EZ1002 OLED TVs that so happen to arrive in our test room during the same week.
Also explained are the terms APL (Average Picture Level) and peak brightness.
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one of the most interesting video you ever made Vincent, waiting for a comparison between those TV now!!
Learning something with every video. The best video reviews by far, keep it up
Always the best from Vincent !! Detailed and honest explanations on his material !!! Would be nice to see how these tv's compare with each other on low resolution outputs in 1080i, 720p, 1080p, and even 480p content. Also a comparison of motion handling between the Sony A1 and the LG C7.
Another solid video Vincent, keep up the fantastic work!
like other people have mentioned though, I hope you'll show these same OLED panels with their correct settings in your next video
This is the best review I have ever seen on youtube well done!
You are just as articulate and informative as you were 5 years ago. Thank you, this really helped me understand HDR10 as I'm trying to get my laptop to play HDR files. ☺️
Great video, really valuable information. I hope that you are all right after the incident at Manchester yesterday...
Friends and family are fine. Thanks for asking.
Wow another amazing vid. This is so informative.
11 dislikes? Probably by inferior tv reviewers. These tests and reviews are seriously the best in the industry!
Thank you ! Very good explanations Vincent as always. I was craving for this to understand better the importance of peak brightness, aspecially on my Panasonic dx900.
Very educative. I knew there was a difference in HDR content when I saw them side by side I just couldn't put my finger on what besides the brightness (now I know :).
As you said, you had the settings wrong to demonstrate the point, I wish you could of set all the TV's on the correct settings to give us an accurate comparison but I hope that will be in a later video.
Yes was hoping for the same.
Great video Vincent, I've seen this problem on A1 when I've saw it for first time into shop, on side there was an EZ950 and difference was visible for a trained eye. I saw that the Sony clips on White and now you've demostrated it technically.
really informative video vincent. really appreciate it
Thanks Vincent I've been looking to understand this a bit better for a while.
Hi Vincent
I just managed to work out how to congratulate you here on a top work, truly superb explanation and very timely
It will be good if you can do a part 2 of the video how you can improve each TV as you mentioned. If not, please let us know.
Most people will be interested to know how to improve the lg, Sony and pana
Either via TV settings or using the blu ray capability (like the pana one to adjust hdr)
Thanks again for a great piece of work
Wow, great explanation.
Keep up the good work
I guess it's time to unfollow other sites :D This is by far the best demo (or the only one?) of HDR tone mapping and now I clearly understand! This is exactly what I asked you to do, a 20 mins detailed comparison video demoing what you are talking about :) I would like to see a video about gradation too from low quality source to 4K BD, obviously not a 20 min vid just a 3-5 min vid :)
One thing I missed here is the a demo of active HDR on the LG but I guess the point here was their native performance without tricks. If you use active HDR on the LG then is it closer to the Sony or the Panasonic picture? I'm curious how this OLED series will end, the conclusion which one you pick/ or telling if worth the extra for the Sony/Panasonic. For this Panasonic clearly not but hopefully the EZ950 will be similar
Adam Majorcsik what you mean lg closer to panny and sony its their moron
EXCELLENT info!! Thanks for educating the consumer.
Could do a mini part 2 where you have them calibrated properly to see what the actual real world differences are? Also, a similar video on ABL kicking in for non HDR content would be really helpful for most enthusiasts.
Excellent video. Well done. Have already subscribed.
Can't wait to see them matched up in settings side by side, rather than tweaked to show differences. Also, can't wait to see the first big A1E update considering it's still running on their fundamental beta firmware according to the email response I got back from their tech dept.
Like button has been smashed! Great video thanks
Hi Vincent, I love this video! I am learning so much from you. I wonder how the difference in tone mapping will make black and white movies look, specifically Logan Noir which was just released.
Nice video. My E6 does lose some details in the brightest scenes but the UB900 player has a nice setting for white gamma which can "correct" this. I wish we could have tone mapping as a couple of presets if it's possible. That way the user could adapt them to their needs.
On the Sony A1 the various picture modes (custom, cinema home, cinema pro) each have different tone mapping algorithms, so you can choose the one that you prefer.
AMAZING lesson!
Great depth review of video accuracy
Once again another fantastic and informative video. I found this to be very interesting. For a rec 709 calibrator I've been finding it difficult to find information in terms of calibrating for HDR. I understand there are no standards as of yet but it would be nice to be able to atleast adjust basic settings. Any recommendations?
Thx for the video. Which tv would you recommend in general and hdr especially for gaming
How do you optimize the tone mapping on the Sony A1? What is the best picture mode to preserve HDR details and fidelity?
Hi Vincent, great video ! What about micro led, with its suposedly very hugh luminance, will we be able to get the same luminance delivered by the source without the need for tone mapping? Thx
Impressive and educating video.Quite understandable for those who do not have the necessary knowledge of the technical characteristics of flagships tvs. I also think that oled technology is currently outperforming any other technology (led, qled), so there is no comparison between oled tvs and any other tv. The question is which oled TV is the best right now.If I, as a simple consumer, set as criteria: build quality, picture quality (contrast, hdr brightness, color gamut, motion, 1080p and 4k input etc), input lag, sound quality, WHICH OLED TV WOULD YOU CHOOSE...??? p.s. i guess that potential competitors would be Sony A1, Panasonic EZ1002 and LG E7 or C7..Thank you in advance and keep up the real good work!!
Great explanation
amazing video good information thanks
Can you plz do some comparison with Sony x930E with samsung Qled?
Would love an update on this with newer TVs like GX with HDMI 2.1
Please explain if we should use tone mapping on games where you can set your own brightness level, or if you should max brightness of the game and use tone mapping
Thanks for the video Vincent!
I got a question for you: do you know if Panasonic will ever be rolling out a Dolby vision firmware update for any of their oled panels in the future?
What hdmi matrix and extenders are you using to pass the hdr signal? Also are you using a cat 6 with the extenders?
Hello Vincent. Great video. I work in color correction/color grading. What would be the TV in your opinion for the color correction/color grading in a vfx company? I have an HP Dreamcolor with 80% of the BT2020 but I am looking for a TV for the client. Thank you very much
Will be very interested to see what happens with Dolby Vision, where the colourist gets to make some of the decisions about how to display the image on displays with lower peak brightness.
excellent video! perfect balance between clear concise information and in-depth coverage, i'm hoping that the cheaper EZ9xx from panasonic are going to maintain most of the image processing from the 1000-series, would you say that, at least for now with oleds, if one goes for maximum possible image quality it is preferable to go with the 55" panels over the 65" since the smaller panels can achieve higher APL?
Intelligenz Bestie Technically yes, especially with the old plasma technology, but you also lose that immersive quality of larger screens if you go for a smaller one..
Very informative video. Like button smashed. Manufacturer should give users the option to switch between different tone mapping algorithms. It ought to be possible through a firmware update.
thank you vincent
when looking at movies on a 4k hdr player. should i put my oled light to 100 and contrast to 100 to get the benefits of HDR
17:45 i lost it when he said "smash the like button" 😂 like the video is all serious and informative and then he says that instead of saying something more regular like "like the video".
Very useful! Now do the same with perfect settings for each approach! :-)
Would it be possible to compare the Sony/LG OLEDs with the Panasonic DX900/902/904?
Great video
Hi, can you do the following test , put all of them one by one hooked to a PC , to see how many Hz can do under 1080 p and so one , i know that Lg one can do 119 hz under 1080 p . thanks
Does this happen also with Dolby Vision in Sony TVs?? Because they look a lot dimmer, maybe exactly for this reason, so APL is reduced to preserve highlight details
You are the Neil DeGrasse Tyson of display technology! Subscribed!
What’s the difference between lg C7 hdr dynamic contrast (active hdr) and lg c8 dynamic tone mapping?
Fantastic!
Which of the three has the better overall packet?
And which is the best of the three TV's.
Thank you for the video thank you for educating me on so many things that I don't understand I hope you continue to do the great work that you do😇👍👍🏾👍🏽👍🏿👍🏻👍🏼 I wish I can give you more thumbs up but God only gave me two
Someone please TDLR. Should you have dynamic tone mapping on, or off?
very thank Vincent :)
The nvidia shield does a much better job with 4k Netflix and prime into my current panasonic 2015 4k LED than the TV apps - just wondered how these new OLEDs process Netflix and prime versus the shield if you have one. Thanks so much for the information here and in other videos
How are you getting 2.0 pcm? Player or is the splitter losing something
But yet it is recommended to disable dynamic tone mapping for a more accurate picture. If disabled, how would the tv handle the tone mapping from 100 nits to 1000 or 4000 nits?
thank you!
Excellent, thanks for this. I naturally want to check that frozen frame with the white shirt on my own TV now! Where in the movie does it occur, please? Ta!
Excellent explenation of peak brightness & why it's important for detail .I think Oled it's moving closer & closer to that 1K Luminance peak brightness measurement of nits & once it gets there , then will have perfect brights & perfect darks .
you have alot of money to buy things man but your TV calibrations,your taste sucks sorry:)
Am I supposed to care or something??? lol
For the A1 55 inches or the A1 65 inches is different since what the customs size
How Philips compares in terms of tone-mapping?
But this setting can be managed by adjusting the "gamma" setting, right??
Can you do a comparison for the upscaling on these 3 OLED since most of the contents we watch today are in 1080p, 1080i, and 720p? Thank you.
Jimmy Nguyen no.
Just kidding. Don't yell at me.
Yes this really is important, since in general day to day content it is usually just SD quality!
Ka Mi Didnt know people still watched TV channels lol, the A1 is probably the best choice then or just buy a cheap LCD instead.
It does not have to be just TV channels, I do understand that 4k contents are growing more and more each day but the majority contents out there are still in 1080p, especially for streaming. A lot of people tend to overlook the upscaling capabilities of TVs. By the way, don't forget about sports on TV channels. Yes I do feel like the A1E is probably the better TV for upscaling due to the X1 extreme processor and its ability to reduce the noise and sharpen the image at the same time, I just want to see it in action in comparison to the other 2 OLED
Does tone-mapping also pertain to how Dolby Vision is presented?
For instance, I oftentimes find that Dolby Vision looks better than HDR10 on my LG B6, by a significant margin, and I'm curious if the tone mapping and dynamic metadata play a role in that:
What do you think the dynamic metadata is for?
Please help me i want to buy new oled tv i am confused lg c7 vs sony a1 oled
First of all, thank you for the informative video, as always. I have a question: if the entire curve is lowered vis-a-vis the PQ EOTF curve (as in LG's tone mapping), doesn't that cause black crash on the other end of the spectrum?
I think that would only happen if the blacks were lowered at a higher rate than the highlights. Ambient lighting also plays a role in how the black levels are perceived.
Awesome, i saw thw a1 an the c7 side by side, i went with the a1, IMO it looked brighter and a little better color, and off course the desigen is lovley.
thank you Vincent by far the best neutral and unbiased reviews on line, discussing real world settings rather than calibration data which most people would not understand or see!
Just a quick question: I have heard somewhere that Sony have advised the best screen to go for best HDR picture performance is their 65ZD9 and not the A1! When the 4000 nits discs become more available is better to have the ZD9 tone mapping retaining more detail and peak brightness/luminance than an OLED rolling off 50% earlier?
What can be done with the Sony to address washing out details at high brightness levels like it is in the demo? You mention this can be fixed?
Use Cinema Home mode to get a picture closer to the LG
amkcom also drop the gamma to negative?
The truth is I've been a Sony fan for so many years and now I see the detail is important to me because you made this video you have set me free from being a fan or should I say a slave to love Sony all I wanted was the best visual performance to get the most out of PlayStation games or Xbox games thank you so much
Bill Gears LG C7
Lg b7/c7 for gamers
Please in future review oppo UHD flagship player here in North America model DMP-205
the video is very good
I wonder how each of these sets would handle upscaling 720P or lower like say, PS3 games for example.
Great video. What stand are you using for the Sony Oled?
It's an old Alphason.
Thanks!
so what are the top 3 oled atm?
Is this tone mapping the same as dynamic tone mapping? I'm guessing, no.
Some day do you think you can educate us on The difference between gaming on OLED or LED and what would be your personal decision on purchasing a TV for gamers
Great test, but I would have liked to see the Sony with the correct setting for HDR10 detail.
I got a B7 the other day with FIFA 18, HDR mode kicked in, and it's ridiculously bright. I don't think i'd want a TV hitting over 1,000 nits, i'd need sunglasses.
that depends if youre playing at night or during the day. Higher nits during the day is ideal. If you play with the lights off at night hitting 2000nits will blind you
Coming from an x900f which is supposed to be much brighter than the x94j I just got the x94j is not only brighter in general even with tone mapping off the highlights seem to be brighter and it's hard to understand. I also didn't really know if I should turn on hdr tone mapping to gradient or brightness or just off lol because I'm not sure what it does. Mainly gradient. The brightness preferred seems to make everything a bit brighter which is nice Esp during day.
The x90j/x94j is far superior to the x900f. Tone mapping brightness preferred and off for Dolby vision.
@@AquariumNatureLife From what I've read tone mapping should always be on gradient for DV and off for regular HDR. But honestly I either use off or bright (sometimes gradient) depending on the movie/ show and my mood. I used to just leave it on gradient
Even with a lower nits the x94j seems brighter overall.
The one thing that I really do hate is the fact that it has a pathetic amount of dimming zones. The x900f had far worse blooming in general but the blooming on the x90j /x94j is pretty horrendous with how big the dimming zones are. It's mind boggling that they are cheating out yo such a degree on their led tvs. Meanwhile say what you will about Samsung but they have lile 700 dimming zones. Their dimminv algorithm isn't perfect but still likely better viewing experience in general.
A great dimming algorithm isn't magic, it cant fix only 12 zones.
Top that with the really bad viewing angles (I rather have bad viewing angles and a better contrast than the opposite since I don't share this TV lol) vut the viewing angles are so bad that you can see the colour and contrast shift bear the edges even when you look at the screen perfectly in the middle. (I do use my TV in a pitch black room 99% of time, it's barely perceptible in brighter conditions)
Anyway love my x94j. Happy. Feel like it's an upgrade over the x900f for sure. Esp now I got 4k 120 and VRR support (even supports local dimming with vrr now which led tvs generally don't, although max LD in vrr seems more like LD in between low and medium)
But I'm regularly annoyed by how large and visible the LD zones are. And the same problem I had with my x900f. These Sony leds with colours that are darker esp grayish have an extremely hard time to keep LD in check, and to give properly saturated colours. Bright images look jaw dropping. But a scene that is somewhat undersaturated and grey will not only have the worst blooming (was the dame on x900f) the colours also seem washed out and milky. Sometimes you see a dim but lit up scene that is far more milky and less saturated in part (due to local dimming usually).
Sony is so concerned with accurately portraying bright highlights, that it completely ignores that sometimes a tiny candle can literally ruin the entire scene.
Hilariously this was definitely worse on the x900f. I remember watching "Mother!" In HDR and it had HORRENDOUS blooming. This is a movie that is all in the same dim house, with these gaslamp. Type lighting left and right. The makers also chose for a more pastel palette and desaturated the colours which is an idiotic "artistic choice" that many movies do.
This caused the entire movie to be be bloom. I also often would notice that a tiny candle would somehow light up 1/3rd of the screen wirh blooming on the x900f despite it only touching like one maybe 2 zones.
On the x94j it's more like 2 zones are lit up. But since they are rectangular and very large it is very visible still. But at least not half the screen lol
Oh dear. I like the fact that sony uses superior bit mapping and can show more gradient levels. But I prefer the tone mapping approach of the LG or Panasonic. Can the sony be made to use the same tone mapping as the other tvs? Otherwise it will be a hard choice. I prefer the tone mapping the LG and Panasonic use because a less bright picture will be able to pull out more detail in darker areas. This is what Vincent means by shadow detail or when he says specular highlights. I would prefer to see all the details in smaller areas of the image rather than have an overblown brightness throughout the image as a whole.
Would just like to add. The gradient levels will mean you won't see lines or horizontal bands when transitioning between colours. It's silly really. You would think by now that tv manufacturers would already have superior bit mapping or high enough bit depth panels so that all colours Can be seen smoothly without any lines showing. Cheers Vincent. Excellent as always. I just subbed.
Vincent, what was the Picture Mode för the sony ? Pro ? Home?
Cinema pro was used for the demonstration. ;-)
We need a reviwe about the best 4k HDR gaming tv pleas
thanks for the video.. the "beep" when text pops on the screen is annoying. (we are watching.. .we don't need an audio beep.)
Thanks for your feedback! Duly noted. :-)
Ben looks like he's about to explode. . lol he ate too many tacos
Why did'nt you use the Panasonic UB-900 player? you rated it as the best current 4k player.
The OPPO has an A-B loop function which we needed for this demo.
ok..thanks
You mentioned a setting in the Sony could be changed to alter this effect. Can you explain what settings these are?
Very well explained, kudos to you!
I really wish the Loewe Bild 7 would have been included in this comparison, but it was mentioned in the video that they used the same tone mapping algorithm as the Panasonic OLED.
I also consider Panasonic's algorithm is the best choice, and if Loewe is the same in this regard, I would consider it a more worthy option because it supports Dolby Vision. Of course, Loewe also comes with the higher price... but hey, quality components are bound to cost more.
You'll be pleased to know that the original plan was to use the Loewe for demonstration of the 3rd method, but the Panasonic arrived and was not easy to move from the stand haha.
I have to say watching this now in 2020 and having watched some HDR (4k blurays/streaming) on the family LG B7 oled i really dont often like the LG HDR tonemapping approach and often prefer good ol sdr... what it gains in highlight detail and ultimate contrast it really loses in consistency of scene to scene brightness tone and dreadful black crush that makes my old Panasonic plasma turn in its grave. Watching the Mandalorian for example some scenes can look stunning but dark and low apl scenes can look dreadful especially with any lamps on in the room. Detail in darker scenes can simply seem to vanish and my eyes cant stand it when this kind of scene features a bright element within it at the same time... its a brain f*ck moment for me at that point. I personally would much prefer the more consistent scene to scene image (despite its out the box flaws) of the Sony approach with a few tweaks to contrast to bring some detail back in bright highlights but clearly the Panasonic has the best out the box ability to show darker area detail and its this which i value most to truly give an image consistency and depth. Its much easier to accept loss of detail in bright areas. Lets say we look to the clouds on a bright sunny day im not looking for the detail in this image my eyes are presented... frankly its not a nice experience anyway to subject the eyes to high brightness! Consistent mid tones and above black is far more important to a comfortable experince that at that same time allows me to take the majority of detail in. Thats just my eyes opinion of course.... ymmv! 😂
Vincent - Big fan. Please don't use silly pop up sound effects for the text.. U r far more sophisticated :)
I have the 65 A1E in the US and they released a update that makes cinema pro tracker closer to pq curve without detail lose. It still looks brighter than the LG even after this update.
You can really see the difference in detail on the white shirt between the 3 OLED tvs.
Lg looks better to me with the panasonic a close second and when you consider the price difference between these the LG are hard to beat.
peaheaduk he had the set incorrectly to serve a point
which brands have good tone mapping? LG still has the wrong tone mapping
Sony Samsung Panasonic Philps all better then LG OLED
i honestly prefer the Sony over the LG. yeah the highlight details is preserved, but Ben Affleck looked too dark on the LG. almost burnt.
I assume that this was not intentional, but the video came across as rather biased against the Sony OLED as you didn't provide any information on the different Sony modes/settings to prevent clipping or mention the fact that the new firmware update (already in the USA) means there is no clipping with the Pro mode. On the forums, the video is being used to justify a supposed advantage for the Panasonic albeit with the posterisation issue. While the video has been useful (and thanks for this), it raises more issues. You mention the strength of the Sony in terms of posterisation. Can I assume that with the proper settings, HDR performance can be made very similar to the Panasonic but without its posterisation issues? Answers to this would really help people trying to decide on a TV.
I would guess not as it's not the settings that's the problem, it's the tone mapping in the processor that's the issue. The 3 TVs were on cinema modes so altering settings may result in other issues. It was a fair comparison.
Why did you set the Oppo to output 12 bits? 10 bit is used on the UHD BD and 12 bits just might introduce problems. You always say that you are purist, so I don't understand why you chose 12 bits over 10.