Why Electronic Voting Is Still A Bad Idea
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- čas přidán 8. 12. 2019
- We still shouldn't be using electronic voting. Here's why. • Sponsored by Dashlane - for free on your first device @ www.dashlane.com/tomscott
MORE BASICS: • The Basics
REFERENCES:
Computerphile video: • Why Electronic Voting ...
Stories about voter identification happening outside the law: www.theguardian.com/notesandq...
Voting machines left connected to the internet: www.vice.com/en_us/article/3k...
Hackers getting voting machines to play Doom: www.salon.com/2019/08/14/hack...
"Small, well-funded team backed by a national government": www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/us...
Scottish election: www.theguardian.com/politics/... and news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6... - with the Excel detail on page 50 of www.openrightsgroup.org/wp-co...
Report on e-voting in Estonia: estoniaevoting.org/
Written with Sean Elliott / seanmelliott
Directed by Tomek
Graphics by Mooviemakers www.mooviemakers.co.uk/
Audio mix by Haerther Productions haerther.net/
🟥 MORE FROM TOM: www.tomscott.com/
(you can find contact details and social links there too)
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👥 THE TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES: / techdif
Rule 34b: If it exists; Doom will be ported to it.
If I remember correctly, someone managed to get Doom working on a Smart Fridge. I don't know how you'd play on a fridge but I'd love to see someone try.
Rule 34b, Ammendment 1: But can it run Crisis?
@@EngineerLume Played on an ATM once, hard af but the best thing to ever run on an ATM.
Calculator was fun
@@EngineerLumesome smart fridges are just android phones. Not too hard to get doom running there!
Imagine going into a voting booth and seeing the Doom title screen.
rip and tear
Best election ever.
the demons have the faces of the candidates
@@Greaust who's doom guy?
@@oshkiv4684 the guy from Doom
I've often heard people say, "You trust using the Internet to place orders for expensive merchandise. Why not for voting?" But there are major differences. The company has every incentive to process my order accurately. The people counting votes may or may not want an accurate count. If someone changed my order, either deliberately or by mistake, I'll know something went wrong when I get the wrong merchandise, and I'll complain and demand they fix it. If they count my vote wrong, will I even know? How can you have anonymity and also prove that your vote was miscounted?
If I was purchasing merchandise at prices comparable to the stakes of a general election, I'd be exceptionally wary of how the finances are processed. If I was spending a billion dollars on a painting for example, I'd probably only be willing to do so while in the same room as the painting and the people accepting payment for it. If I could, I'd find a means of physical payment such as gold, if not I'd ensure my trust is well-placed in the bank to cover the amount if something goes awry.
Eletronical ballots do not use internet
@@gallectee6032 that would kill anonymity
@@chriswarr641 Not if you make it anonymous.
@@gallectee6032 Genius! Now how do we know if the code is ours? How do we know it's actually tied back to our intended result?
Even if software is open source ... Years ago a web site for programmers that I frequented at the time ran a contest: Submit a sample program to count votes that would bias the results but which looks valid to someone studying the code. The winning entry relied on a buffer overflow in a C program, for those who understand what that means. The point is, cheating software doesn't have to be blatant and obvious. You can put subtle "errors" in a program that make it wrong, but that would not be obvious even to an expert studying the code. And let's face it: elections today are high stakes. A political party might be very willing to spend a few million dollars to hire a team of experts to create voting software with such subtle "errors". Do it right, and even if you are caught you could plead that it was a mistake and not a deliberate fraud.
thnks mark
Surely though, while that would pass a cursory look, if it were actually to be implemented at scale, there would be enough eyeballs that even the subtlest of fuckery would get seen, right?
Before the election the machine should be tested, so this bias would be caught before the election occurred.
@@dominicbeaumont4932 🥴💓
A party? Nah, they wouldn't. Their "friends" in business would, however…
Solution: a group kahoot quiz
I can see myself already losing.
Oh boy, I can already imagine the framerate.
“Frames per second? I thing you must mean: *seconds per frame.”*
i trust like that
@@Edgeperor That's a good joke
But kahoot always has a right awnser
That's the good thing about Africa, our election results are known before we even go to the polls so we don't have to worry about all of this...
Why vote when your honourable dictators do it for you
Lmao. Same here in Easter Europe. We have voting, but every so often they find a truck full of valid voting tickets somewhere in a ditch. Also, people that died decades ago still voting.
I dont care who gets to vote as long as I get to nominate the candidates.
Ah isn't the internet wonderful
this shouldn't be funny, but i laughed nonetheless.
this just makes me think about the story where a flipped bit in a 2003 belgium election count resulted in a candidate receiving over 4000 unexpected votes
I think it was some malfunction
@@corrupted4726 Ultimately it was a cosmic ray striking one of the transistors. The error was spotted and corrected
@@botigamer9011 there was also another similar event that happened during a super Mario 64 speed run, where a random cosmic ray flipped a bit in the system and caused Mario’s y-coordinate to jump up a bunch. It caused a significantly faster speed run but because it wasn’t intentional I don’t think the run was counted
4096
@@wren_.I guess you guys are men of culture as well
As someone who does poll work in Canada, the paper ballots and all the record keeping we do makes it next to impossible to tamper with the vote. Even as poll supervisor it would be impossible for me to do without getting caught.
too bad not many canadians vote 😢
"I dont know how to do it. It's impossible"
- Some dude after 12 min of being explained how it's possible.
@@AApyrofreakPaper voting. Nothing digital
@@AApyrofreak can u read?
Here in America, it doesn't matter if you get caught, if the party that has the most power favors what you do.
One of my favorite things ever is people just wanting to play doom on every concievable device.
Doom on a TI-84 is nice. Personally have a copy of it.
I've got it on my Samsung smart fridge
seems like skyrim is trying to overtake that achievement
@@somerandomnon9161 I have it on my Ti Nspire, runs great with @234Mhz oc ahah
@@rabywastaken nice dude
I electronically upvoted this.
Nice to see you here
Taran Van Hemert did you use a macro to do so?
Or did you...
Are you sure?
did you forget the whole anonymity part
At my poling place, they use a touchscreen monitor to display the ballots to you, but that’s it. You still get handed a paper ballot, and you still turn in a paper ballot. All the computer dies is take your input and punch a hole in the right spot on the paper. It then tells you to verify that the correct markings were made. I, as a visually impaired person, very much appreciate this.
The machines I voted on in California you voted on the machine, but then it printed out a physical receipt of your choices, and that was the ballot that got counted. You then had the opportunity to examine the printout, and if you changed your mind or there was an error you could reject it and it'd be shredded.
That's probably the best way to do it. The printed ballots can be easily machine readable, and also easily human readable. You can get the results out to the public really fast, even if you spend days verifying the results afterwards. As long as the margin of error between the machine read result and the human read result remains extremely low, there's no problem.
If the machine knows that you are physically impaired it can punch or print different holes that your impaired eyes cannot see . Flipping all the visually impaired votes may only be enough for a closely contested issue, unless combined with other attacks .
It is still computer read and counted. The paper ballot could be correct, the reader program just changes the totals in a convincing way.
@@johndododoe1411you forgot that touch is a thing
You should read about the eletronic voting system from Brazil. The same difficulties you'd have to alter a significant number of paper ballots can be applied to the eletronic machine. Each eletronic machine have a determined number of people who can vote. There is no way you can change a significant amount of machines to change the course of the election especially considering the number of people and the size of the country. In fact, it would be easier to change a lot of paper boxes during transportation for boxes previously altered for onde determined candidate. In addition, the software is verified by universities, army, congress, and other entities before and after the election, and all these must agree during the process.
Kkkkkk
@@lnxred3661 kkkkkkk o que irmão?
Vc está descrevendo como o processo deveria ser e não como é.
O pedido das forças armadas para acessar o código fonte deu uma polêmica danada e todas as sugestões de melhoria foram atacadas sem argumento algum.
E o mais grave é que o código não é aberto como dizem. o TSE só abre PARTE do código, confiando em segurança por obscudidade.
The machines also print several receipts of the votes that were input in them during the election and everyone sees them and takes pictures. So you also have "paper trail" If that IS such a necessary thing
@@PauloPontes até porque eles não tem direito pra fazer isso
It's so funny that every time you say "no one does that" it's exactly what the Brazilian system has done for 30 years
Actually not. Tom clearly didn't do any research, this video was based purely on his knowledge about technology, not on actual electronic voting systems.
I was going to say exactly that.
@Danilo The code is not actually open to the general public. Even if it was, there would be the problem of checking if the code is proper on each machine, and also the dubiousness of the code that checks said machines.
@Danilo Para derrubar uma árvore, você corta o tronco, não os galhos. Da mesma forma, a urna é o menos provável de sofrer um ataque, pois é muito difusa. O principal problema é onde se contabiliza todos os votos. Ainda assim, é muito improvável que haja fraude.
@@Rogi1198 improvável 🤨 coff coff
Tom: "I trust that the device you're watching this video on is completely Malware free"
Me: "I'm glad you do because I don't"
Me every other day: Yes Windows. I absolutely trust that software I just downloaded from a random webpage. Now shut up and run it with elevated privileges.
If someone has the same problem, use malwarebytes, it will save your device from all standard malwares :)
@@matteoalberghini3816 the word is "standard", that means only already discovered malware are being found, and new malware gets made all the time, exploting new security holes.
Any anti-virus software < Tech literacy, Even the most basic of hackers can beat an anti-virus. Anti Virus Programs mostly identify virus from a database of file checksums. If a file has the same checksum as something in the database it's a virus. If not it isn't, even if it is. All you have to do to change the checksums is use a program called an obfuscatetor which adds useless data to the file, which changes the checksum value, then use an existing virus that already exists, and boom you beat pretty much all existing anti-viruses.
@@ThatFadedAsian well, that is how they used to work (Yes, they still do, but not only).
Now day they also analys behaivour of programs. Because of what you said.
I uses Linux, so I have no problems with viruses. 😜
(of course not, but it still better then Windows, even though Linux isn't proytected from viruses, especially social viruses or viruses attacking web browsers).
I have been a poll worker for elections in Portugal for many years now and I completely agree. Election security is one of the things we should be most conservative about. Here in Portugal, we have to individually count all the ballots we receive before the voting starts, and we must cross-check that by the number of people who have voted, based on the registration rolls, with the number of ballots that have been entered into the ballot box, and the difference must match the number of ballots that remains unused at the end of the day.
All the counting is done under the observation of the party delegates and you are forbidden by law to hold any pen or writing instrument while handling the ballots. If there is any discrepancy in any voting table, even something as small as a missing signature or one lost ballot, you get called into court and you have to explain it to the judges.
Very similar to the UK, this is the way.
My dad has worked when voting was done by paper here in Brazil. He saw how easy it was to manipulate the results. Compared to that, electronic voting is still not only safer but also much more efficient. All the possible problems regarding electronic voting could also happen with paper.
Engraçado, explique o por que dela ser fácil de adulterar, pode usar todos os termos necessários em sua explicação, faço questão de pesquisar para entender seu ponto.
@@fabiosantos1920 acho q vc entendeu errado amigo, ele está defendendo as urnas eletronicas
@@fabiosantos1920 Se você está se referindo a votos em papel, inúmeras maneiras. A urna pode vir já com votos, o mesário pode marcar cédulas e fazer com que sejam consideradas nulas, pessoas contando votos podem anular votos válidos e transformar votos em branco em válidos, etc.
Outra fraude usada até a implementação das urnas eletrônicas era feita por coronéis e traficantes. Eles juntavam os eleitores "cativos" deles, o primeiro ia votar, e ao invés de votar fingia colocar o voto na urna e voltava com a cédula em branco. O traficante pegava essa cédula, preenchia como quisesse, e entregava para o segundo eleitor "cativo", que tinha que depositar a cédula já preenchida e voltar com outra cédula em branco. Esse processo seguia até todo o eleitorado "cativo" ter votado.
(Diga-se de passagem, a ditadura militar era campeã de fraudes. Eles roubavam tudo o que podiam na cara dura.)
Para quem tem a minha idade, não era raro antes das urnas eletrônicas ver algumas dezenas de matérias nos jornais sobre fraudes encontradas nas eleições. Eu tive até aula na escola sobre como identificar fraudes para poder denunciá-las.
@@FabioCapela teve casos de urnas encontradas em lixões, riachos que serviam como esgoto...era como as coisas funcionavam naquela época
KKKKKKKKKKKK tão seguro quanto pular num vulcão
Honestly, who needs an antivirus if you can just watch this video where Tom Scott himself checks your computer and assures you it's clean
Tom Scott shall rule the world ahahahah
@@pixel-hy4jx aHaHa
plot twist: the video changes if you have a malware or outdated OS and tells you
thousandth like
@@System64MC Like a secret ending in a video game? Damn, now I feel like downloading malware to unlock the ending and get that one last achievement
Just add an "i'm not a robot" captcha then you're fine.
Then most of the ballots won't even be counted because people will fail the captcha.
@@drabberfrog "people"
sure they are
@@nothanks39 the voting machines will be the only ones smart enough to pass the Captcha
and make sure you have to confirm email adress
Democrats: But minority people won't know how pass a Captcha...or know how to get an ID card.
Almost all the problems that you pointed out in the electronic vote also happen in the physical vote and, almost always, the failure is aggravated.
That's what he said... With a move to electronic, the attacks can be easier, more impactful, and harder to trace.
@@quintonwilson8565 its already "hard" to trace when a whole system wont let you audit it. At this point its fairly lateral.
@@nwerd7584 I think we have to abandon secret voting. Either broadcast publicly who you vote for or shut the hell up. Scary, nasty, but probably the only way we can ever be sure the vote hasn't been doctored with.
@@aleksandar5323 I won't even explain why this is a stupid idea...
@@mauricio_ds2322 It probably is but I feel like we don't have a lot of options. Paper ballets are also very much tampered with and I'm starting to loose faith in all voting.
The only times I've heard of electronic voting in some form is overseas voters (Military or Overseas Citizens) in my home state where they can fax or email a ballot to the county elections office to vote in an election. The main thing is that you are still filling out a paper ballot and having to scan or fax your ballot to the elections office who treat your ballot as an Alternative Format Ballot that is verified of the signature and then put onto an official ballot so that it can be run through the machine and tabulated.
In 15 years:
Tom - "Here is why Quantum voting is an even WORSE idea!"
Photon effect could cause your votes to be redshifted or blueshifted! XD
You can't duplicate thing in quantum state
In 25 years:
Tom - "Here is why Skynet voting is the end of the World"
Well actually quantum encryption solves the problem
@@damiankaleomontero496 if you trust the encryptor and counter.
Edit: and quantum encryption breaking doesn't get invented.
Just realised Tom did this in one-take.
Respect. 😅
Ironic that you wrote ironic how you write one take in one take in one take
Is it really one take if i erase my message before posting it??
Ironic that you wrote ironic that you wrote ironic how you write one take in one take.
@@DuckboyMcgee The following statement is true. The previous statement is false.
In the US, people didn’t even trust mail-in paper voting, so the lack of trust in electronic voting might end up getting people to overthrow the government.
Naah, they are not going to overthrow anything. Biden still being in office is the proof of that.
honestly, I'm amazed they haven't done it already.
Yes because there is insane fraud with mail in ballots and electronic voting.
Mail-in ballots should not be accepted - in-person, verified identification, paper ballots only. No exceptions. On vacation on election day? Too bad. Too sick to leave the hospital? Poll workers can come to you if you demand it.
@@irishmanfromengland25 Don't you remember the incident of the Capitol? It happened PRECISELY due to how unreliable electronic voting was to the point it's reasonable to say we don't truly know who actually won the elections.
So, in Romania we have normal Paper Voting. You are identified with and ID Paper (Birth Certificate, ID Card, Driver License, Passport), then you are handled your ballot and a special non-erasable ink stamp. You go into the booth, you stamp your party/candidate/candidate list of choice then go out, put the paper into the ballot box and sign a paper which confirms that you voted. That's kind of it. The votes are counted by every election station's organizing committee and then passed to the local level then county and national if it is a Presidential Election.
"It needs to be obvious to everyone, no matter their technical knowledge, that the system can be trusted."
Scary thing about electronic voting is that the more you know and learn, the less you think that it can be trusted.
Which is the problem. Tom is very naiv in saying that trust is the main problem. People are too trusting, especially if they can't change it.
Funny thing about representative democracy is the more that you know and learn, the less you think it can be trusted.
@@richdobbs6595 then you consider the alternatives. Most of them have major downsides (usually 'doesn't scale past small town size without breaking')
@@QuintarFarenor What are you even saying? You think it is a good thing that people can't trust their elections? You think that elections shouldn't strive to be trustable?
@@icedragon769 You're absolutely misunderstanding: I'm saying that people are TOO trusting! sure we need to make votes more trustworthy but we need to make people more sceptical too and I think that's a bit more important even.
I'm in and from Germany, we have only paper votes. Even then I think people are too trusting.
"Vote red, or you'll regret it." Said Tom, wearing his signature red shirt.
Tommunism
10 years down the line: Tulags come into existence
@@d.madureira Communism = Worker control over the means of production. There is no state, money or class.
Tommunism = Tom Scott controls the means of production. There is no, unintresting places, american accent or electronic voting.
@@PalkkiTT time zones will be abolished as well
@@randompheidoleminor3011 And Icelandic-Mexican food.
“A centralised system should not be used as it can’t be trusted”… “this video is sponsored by… a centralised password system… to store all your most sensitive data!!” 😂
Lmfao
However ironic that is, I trust it more than electronic voting. Not buying it anyway, but still.
@@doughoffman9463 and whats ur point
@@doughoffman9463 oh
Well, a lot of them just got hacked this week. I think you have a point.
@@EulerAlvarenga1 LastPass moment
In the state of Georgia, USA we use computers to vote that then print paper ballots for you to look at and make sure they are correct. Then you place that paper in a scanner that deposits the paper in a sealed container. When the election is complete they read the electronic scanned data. They also randomly audit areas by hand counting the paper votes and comparing them to the scanned data. All paper ballots are kept in case there is an issue, then they call all be hand counted. This way they can get immediate results but they can also revarify the results if they find any issues.
Why would you want immediate results that could be overturned when you already have exit-polls that nobody will be confused by.
@@Quintinohthree So far the immediate results have never been overturned because they have proven accurate every time. But if for some reason the immediate electronic results do not match the paper ballot audit we can still go back and hand count everything. Why would you ever want to wait days or weeks for results when you don't have to???
This makes sense. Spot checking randomly is good enough unless you have suspiciously skewed batches. Then prioritize those batches (e.g. "Why are there two boxes that the machine tally says went 90% to one candidate? Let's look at the paper ballots."
Isn't that just the world's most expensive pencil?
Sure...
Tom: Why electronic voting is a bad idea
Chinese government: Why voting is a bad idea
you forgot "on" from electronic ;P
you can electrically vote by touching the right wires together...
Plato in The Republic: Democracy always leads to oligarchy, plutocracy, and tyranny.
North Korea: What's voting?
@@davidpatel5267 North Korea technically has elections. Kim Jung Un is the only candidate.
@@JohnEusebioToronto It has elections, I stand by it has no votes. Can't vote when you're starving to death🤷🏽♂️😂😂
"I am endorsing dashlane for two reasons;
One, they have given me money, obviously"
Ah Tom, never change.
xDDDD
Well he’s not getting this ad again 😂
@@xdev_henry I mean, Dashlane had to approve this ad, so...
@@xdev_henry He is legally required to disclose the fact that it's a paid promotion - the only difference is that he did it in an unsusually informal way in this video
He's got me hooked
All fraude cases in Brasil happened when we had to vote using paper. Counting votes one by one that came in a box that can be easily changed,replaced. Very safe and efficient.
The only problem, you can't confirm that for sure. We call this Faith.
The votes are counted by both parties
So if we would vote by the old method, the PT and PL parties would have the right to count the votes
All DISCOVERED frauds you mean. Now they are just not discovered anymore.
@@nescaufrioemtbom1113 Por que tá falando em inglês com uma pessoa que é nativa kkkkkk
@@zyuukki2704 maybe for the gringos understanding us?
Bad idea é assar hambúrguer e salsicha e chamar de churrasco
kkkkkkkkkkk melhor comentário
Ele é britânico
KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
Ur clearly not a 'Murican, in more ways than one...
Tom Scott: "vote red or you'll regret it".
Also Tom Scott: wears a red t shirt.
Tom literally always wears a red shirt.
@@DRDynamyte_ I prefer the old shade of red...
don't forget the punch on the hand to indicate towards the emphasis on regret
I'll always vote freedom 😄
@@sturek me too. This one is too dark imo.
"I'm sure that the device you personally are watching this on is malware-free and up to date"
Wow, you've got high expectations for how much effort goes into my laptop
Don't worry, it was his way of saying nicely, "Since you likely won't accept that your machine leaks worse than a colander full of water, imagine how insecure everyone else's stuff is!"
"No windows, come back again tomorrow"
Running a malware test right now, just to be sure...
I'm reasonably sure my devices are malware free because I'm taking care of them and how I use them. Still I can't be complete sure with all the apps in my phone, although any possible security problem would be most likely in small scale. Now imagine all people who are not tech oriented enough to have Linux and know exactly what packages are installing on their system, have checked the checksums or trust the package manager, are following security mailing lists, have real, limited rights sandbox or even virtual machine for internet use (I don't) and so on.
Tom Scott: eletronic voting is still a bad idea
Urna eletrônica brasileira: segura minha cerveja
E o tom tava certo kkkkk
pois e, ele tava certo
Ele está certo.... Nenhum dispositivo eletrônico é 100% seguro, assim como nenhum barco é inafragavel, (lembra do Titanic)
@@iVinicius9990 certo por qual razão? Veio chorar aqui também porque teu candidato perdeu?
@@piticolsf4748 HEHEHEHEHEHE
"If you are techy enough to watch to the end"
You underestimate my boredom Mr. Scott
Isn't your profile picture from theodd1sout
Meeta Verma I’m not that person, but yes
@@meetaverma8372 ye
Or my capacity for procrastination
@@meetaverma8372 gee I wonder
"What is taking so long?"
*hacker playing doom* "uh nothing"
*hears super hardcore music*
"Must've been the wind"
what
Proof of Concept of an ACE exploit, though, which is why they did it that way.
In Iran, we solved this problem already. We know the election result before the election.
😂😂😂😂😂👍💚💚
Just to contribute, in Brazil, the machines are sealed and transported to the local TR and the transfer occurs over there. We vote with this system, which is improving each election, since 1998 with no significant problem until now.
confia
With no significant concerns until now, cause I don’t see a problem 😅
And also, we use biometry by fingerprint 😊
Confia
@@kevinlimapena5698 crente na net:
"To break an electronic election you don't actually have to break it, you just have to cast enough doubt." *Winces in United States*
PS. CNN
the funny thing is he's bashing physical mail-in voting and not the far easier to compromise electronic part. as much as a collapsing democracy can be funny
@@thekingoffailure9967 To be fair voting by mail isnt exactly safe either.
My solution would be to extend the voting period and have a time booking system for when one can vote.
Please send help
@@pflernak You don't even need a time booking system. Plenty of places have two week or more advance voting periods, no excuse required.
What you do need is enough polling places and staff that lines never exceed ten minutes. That breaks the intentional voter suppression that you have in the US.
This should be a recurring series for Tom Scott!
*Tom checks every 5 years:* _Is electronic voting still a bad idea? Yup_
Just reupload the same video, but change the intro.
With how uk politics has been lately its more likely to be every 2 yeare
Fixed Tom Parliament Act
I think electronic voting will happen in future, it's kind of inevitable to keep advancing in technology, using more and more automation while relying on ancient and imperfect system of manually counting votes on sometimes rather large sheets of papers with countless possible combinations. Automation will include scanning the ballots, counting the votes, then it will be matter of time before recording the vote itself will go electronic. Depends on voting system used but let me tell you that there are elections with many rules and voting options that not only it does already confuse the voters how they can actually and effectively cast their votes but the election commission (or how it's called) doing the counting doesn't exactly follow the rather thick rule book aka the law, and the volunteers are often retired people who have serious issues with any advanced counting and doing it for hours of undivided attention and not making a mistake, systematic or numerical. We have many reports how preferential votes were miscounted on paper ballots and more often than not the results are either kept as it is because it didn't have enough potential impact on the results or people don't find all the suspicious cases or the complaint isn't even filled. Because then that whole district would have to repeat the voting, less people would come second time and some party might feel they would get even worse result while holding up the final official result.
This guy completely ignores what blockchain technology is. As a computer guy you have to be critical enough to spot when someone is losing track of technology.
Wow, I am watching the same questions that was answered 30 years ago and every two years my government still needs to answer again to this people.
i find it funny that im brazillian and there is a warning-like message saying that the brazillian electronic voting system is secure, btw im not saying its not safe i just find it funny that is appearing on a tom scott video
Unless you have the private key to your vote, it would be impossible to verify that your vote is actually yours or that it was counted.
We all need Bitcoins for voting so that we can spend our vote with our own keys, not giving the government keys to our votes!
@@raiden72 you need to go outside and touch some grass, even if its artificial
In India I get a link to the Indian election commission. Well done 😊
@@raiden72look up vvpat for Indian voting machines. We run the biggest elections on the planet now for over two decades
"I endorse Dashlane for two reasons.
1) They've given me money, obviously"
I died hahahaah
Are you still dead?
Well good to know youtube is a thing in afterlife :D
RIP
despite dashlane relies heavily on cryptography, and there's already quantum computer
1k vote
In 2050, Tom Scott uploads the video "Why Electronic Voting Is Still Still Still Still Still A Bad Idea."
@Mob nah. Tom's 50m fans mysteriously downvote it and Tom takes it down himself.
@@thePronto underrated comment
There are VVPATs which print your vote, show you and put automatically in a ballot box while the corresponding digital data is recorded on an SSD
That's just a complicated pencil with the added downside that votes are recorded before they are counted.
Me,a brazilian seeing this: *laughs*
China adaptation : 'why voting is a bad idea.'
Why Hong Kong get away and we need unleash deadly plague then
China adaptation : 'why voting is a bad idea.'
Ancap/A1 adaptation: 'why voting is a bad idea.'
China: ?
Ancap/A1: ?
😂
US edition just came out
The use the same sort of arguments as people in the US arguing in favour of the electoral college. Basically "people can't be trusted, we need a system to make sure they choose the best option".
Democracy is the worst system of government
You’ve just summoned Brazilians in your comments. Now you’re going to Brazil.
Tava pensando o mesmo kkkkk.
Mas não podemos negar que o algoritmo do CZcams funcionou que é uma beleza dessa vez.
we are no longer asking, he's going to brazil
He's going to brazil
nonono i dont want to go to brazil ahh ooh god help me ahh
I love how the honestly designed Nedap ES3B Voting machine was hacked to play chess despite it being able to only execute code in its ROM (not altered for the hack). Though a buffer overflow bug in a file save dialogue box, a new virtual machine was created on the stack out of crafted return addresses to parts of functions in ROM. Then there are the blatantly dishonest voting machines and tabulators made be Sequoia Systems (with Good/Evil switch SW4), Diebold’s "explorer.glb” back door feature, and the mandated single user and password to be shared by everyone because the system must be restarted every time a new user has to log in.
Have you researched brazilian voting system, we use eletronic voting for a long time and many possible problems pointed by you are addressed
Not every problem addressed by him was solved, actually there is a strong one that is really hard to solve, the fact that most people in the country don't even begin to understand how the software inside of the voting machine works. Therefore it makes perfect sense that people don't really trust on it. People never agreed to electronic voting because they can't trust in what they don't know. I mean, it's easy to understand a ballot system not an electronic one. I understand what people claim. Even if there are no verified faults in the system, people will never trust it because they need tecnical knowledge to do so, and that's a problem.
"To break an electronic election, you don't actually need to break it, you just need to cast enough doubt on the result."
*Laughs in 2020 USA*
I do believe the 2020 election was not rigged, because they rigged the polling data (rich people only like donating large amounts if it looks like you will win) and if they had rigged the polls it would have matched.
But there's no way to check in states with electronic machines.
@@TheGrinningViking but of course when it was obama's election everyone was blaming the russian, but now that it's against trump everyone is saying it wasn't rigged unlike on 2016
@@Alienwareofficial no one said that 2016 was rigged, only that the Russians had a concerted disinformation campaign meant to interfere with the election.
@@sheeplessknight8732 cnn & bbc were all over it back to 2016, just because you missed see the articles doesn't mean no one said it
@@Alienwareofficial the russian disinfo in 2016 has actual data and proof behind it while the 2020 fraud cases have no basis evem after dozens of attempted lawsuits
4:58
Rule of programming
If you can code on it
It can run doom
People have ran doom on pregnancy tests now.
@@jomialsipi not really. Just on a device put inside the casing of a pregnancy test.
i will not be happy until i see doom running on the apollo command computer
@@nottrevorallen Good luck with that at 2 Mhz. :P
not can, will.
PLEAAAAAASE come to BRAZIL to check how we have been doing it for YEARS! It is said here to be absolutly secure.
I wish the world had listened to you here. This is more prevalent today, conquest and greed, destroyed mankind.
The number of times I've sent the old video to people when they've asked why we don't just vote online now...
524288?
@@EroShynOObi How can we know that this has been counted accurately?
I was just typing almost the same comment. This video is so critically important.
Who needs to hack electronic voting when the left is already hacking our demographics through mass migration?
If we had electronic voting just imagine we would actually democratically vote on every agenda!!
instead of one vote to elect one party and them having absolute total power over the country for years
10:39 "because they give me money" 10/10 ad
Went right to them after that to check it out
Alexandre de Moraes assistindo esse vídeo:
Ovo manda a PF preparar o avião e fazer uma visita pra esse gringo, atos antidemocráticos!
kkkkkkkkkkkkkk
Alexandre de Moraes dá 24h para Bolsonaro explicar pq o gringo falou mal do voto eletrônico
Tom, it's actually concerning that you didn't even made a single research to talk about that subject.
"I'm sure that the device you're watching this on is malware free and up to date"
Aha! I win this round Tom Scott!
I think the viruses keep my computer working at this point
linux voids most problems. there's ad-blockers on my browser. hopefully i'm savvy enough that i would get away with visiting some malware-infested sites.
Dawn Praiser Linux users.
It is as malware free as my free software can tell it is.
Gotta remember tell Tom to be more obvious with the sarcasm, next time. ;)
PC spec people: Will it run crysis
Hardware Hackers: Will it run Doom
Everything can run Doom if you try hard enough
@@blunderbus2695 show me how to run Doom on a single quark
@@monoastro some science person had a theory where all the electrons in the world are the same one after different amounts of time travel, which means every single game of doom ever played was ran on it
@@hecko-yes I asked for a quark
@@monoastro ...frick
the question of distrust depends a lot, because if you don't trust the electronic voting machine, which has the same security as the big banks (in the case of Brazil) it doesn't make sense to trust a piece of paper more than the ballot box, even for the lay people
Não é questão de confiar, vc viu o que ele falou, não faz a mínima ideia de como é o voto eletrônico. Quem vota em papel e acha que não é fraudável é iludido. Vc sequer tem garantia de o papel não ter sido extraviado antes de chegar em quem conta. Mas eu não sei como funciona o voto em papel...
@@max1mus963 Nao é questão apenas de ser fraudado. Todo tipo de sistema está sujeito a fraude. Mas sim a transparência. O eleitor não tem a mínima ideal do que está acontecendo dentro daquela máquina e se seu voto foi realmente computado. Diferente do papel que ele sabe 100% que realmente foi computado seu voto. E no caso do sistema em papel é muito complexo que seja feita uma fraude em grande escala. Diferentemente, do software usado para realizar a tarefa de contar os votos. um simples alteração no código, consegue fraudar toda eleição. Comparando as duas maneiras, sem dúvidas o sistema de papel continua sendo mais seguro e principalmente, transparente.
Higor, the paper is for you to validate that your votes were printed correctly. In the case of auditoriums, any citizen can verify that their role is the same as the one they viewed and confirmed.
@@DavidWDRS How a paper printed by the same machine that you don't trust could be a verifying method?
@@max1mus963 in the case proposed at Brazil, the voter could check the paper printed, and once he confirmed the information were accurate, the machine would then store the paper in a sealed box. (The Voter would't take the paper home)
Meanwhile Brazil updates the results of its electronic ballot boxes in a matter of 2 or 3 hours, like a download or the upgrading of some operational system, in a safe and effective way.
How can you prove that it's safe?
@@libertarianalchemist7995 it has many security checks and encrypted codes, it's virtuallt impossible to hack one
@@libertarianalchemist7995 he doesn't need proof. Some people that seem important/smart told him so, and since he is functionally illiterate, he just believes the nonsense discourse.
you realize that other countries validate paper ballots within a similar amount time right? the ballots are a physical receipt that is then counted by a machine at the polling site. using a hybrid system is fast, and has the added benefit of ensuring physical authenticity. purely electronic voting cannot and never will be able to ensure authenticity.
@@embly2319 Those hybrid systems sound interesting. Gotta take a look later.
Things found at DEFCON this year included:
- Encryption keys for a poll book stored in plain text in a
standard xml file.
- Root access to a ballot marking machine achieved by connecting a USB keyboard and pressing the windows key.
- Hackers were able to remove a CF card containing voter data using nothing but an inexpensive screwdriver, then replacing it with one that allowed the hackers to play pong.
- Lots of absent or simple OS and BIOS passwords that allowed machines to be used as low end PCs.
It would be cool to see if someone could mod a voting machine to be secure from those exploits and as a result have their ideas implimented.
@@Merahki3863 It would be cool to see if states would knock it off with this voting machine crap instead of trying to "fix" them.
I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of computer science majors suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
@@octorokpie you can campaign for a different voting system and I can want to see E voting improved. No need to get tribal about it.
"- Root access to a ballot marking machine achieved by connecting a USB keyboard and pressing the windows key."
Wait what? So not even a single layer of protection...
“This video has breached our terms of service”
Well, it's not that far away from reality. It's demonetized .... 😕
Oops!
Why would that be the case? The Dominion votes and this "contested" election weren't done with electronic votes. The votes were done in person, then printed and counted. That's completely different than voting from home electronically. The parallels the people in these comments are drawing are very strange and inaccurate.
Tom is clearly a Nazi /sarc
2:05pm NZDT
10 October 2022
I fully agree with this.
In New Zealand in our council/mayor elections which happened 2 days ago, only about 40% of voter turnout, which is typical in New Zealand for those elections. So talk about doing the elections online to increase voter turnout. As soon as I heard that, I thought back to this video which I’d seen 1-2 years ago. I still agree with this video.
Two years later, in Arizona... ah nevermind.
Jokes on you, I actually voted for Doom.
i always vote for doom, either literally in the video game sense, or metaphorically in the demise of life as we know it sense.
Before or after they formed a coalition with Gloom?
vote for MF DOOM today!
rip DOOM :(
Which Doom? The rapper, the doctor or the slayer?
I got like 666
"People can be corrupt, or threatened, or incompetent... or all three at the same time"
Hello from Belarus...
Under rated comment
trump
hello from poland
Hello from Brazil
@@whobein add stupid and it's Bolsonaro
The electronic voting system in Brazil is the safest so far, there are several stages of verification that start up to a year before the elections. Also, Brazil was the only country that managed to apply this style of vocation nationally. I recommend you research more about the electoral process in Brazil.
Imagina contar voto do país todo no papelzinho
@vitor h seria péssimo kkk
Imagina nas áreas de milícia como esses papéis seriam contados…
É muito bom ver os gringos contando papel e gastando dias pra saber o resultado, contra horas que nós gastamos.
Uma pena que o brasileiro não sabe votar e continua com o bolsonarismo firme e forte
Tanto acesso à informação, e ainda assim a maioria dos infelizes repetem besteiras infundadas..
A Urna NÃO imprimiria o voto, de forma a que o eleitor levasse para casa. O tal do "Voto Impresso" é apenas o mecanismo de registro de cada voto, para comparação final com o que foi registrado digitalmente na urna eletrônica. Os demais países que utilizam a urna eletrônica, o fazem desta forma. Exceto pelo próprio Brasil, Botão e quiçá mais um país, salvo engano.
Tanto inglês, para não conseguirem ler os comentários alheios, e enxergar a farsa nessa narrativa..
6:57 I got a Volkswagen ad right before this video 💀
We've had electronic voting in Kenya for a few election cycles now and we've seen the counting stream magically and inexplicably doing somersaults to give victory to the candidate backed by the state security
That is very suspicious...
@@yabombo8145 unfortunately we don't just suspect, we know it's been doctored. We even call the 'elected' representatives 'computer chicks' as in they've been hatched by computers 😂
@@hydrolifetech7911very clever, I should keep this in mind if electronic voting becomes more used were I live.
@@yabombo8145 "Suspicious" my ass, in most "democratic" nations of Africa it would be more surprising to find out the elections were fair than it'd be to find out they were faked.
Guy Panzerboss I wouldn’t say Kenya and America are equally as democratic, so...
(Not an American btw, just stating the obvious).
Hi, I'm from 2020. This video aged well...
Was looking for this comment.
Especially the constant hammer on the fact you don't need to actually break the election integrity, just the perception
Hi, im from 3020
We still aren't doing e-voting
Btw, in the future it's a dictatorship, so you can't vote anyways
CZcams algorithm knows what it's doing
@@Burge97 and if you really want to murder the perception of election integrity you could lie 5 times in a row about doing an audit/recanvas
Tom scott saying my devices are free of malware makes me happy about myself
Why did I read: "Why electronic vomiting is still a bad idea". What is wrong with me
Point made (and I've used similar arguments against electronic voting before, so thank you for the great material!), but as for the Doom thing: given that hackers and geeks will attempt to run Doom on literally anything with a chip, we've hit the point where if you CAN'T run Doom on something, it can be argued that that object is not, in fact, a computer.
I saw doom running on cardboard pannels. Is my cereal box the computer or the poor fucker holding the cutouts?
somebody figured out how to run Doom on AO3 (archive of our own, a fanfiction archive in case you didn't know what it was)
Of course a voting machine is able to run doom, but its software should let you do it!
From a practical security standpoint, running Doom on a machine demonstrates that execution of non-trivial arbitrary code is possible.
And if you _can_ run Doom on it, Bethesda will try to release Skyrim for it.
Watching the scan line sweep across that cathode ray tube is mesmerizing
i like big word
I missed most of this video because I was too busy watching it as well.
I remember playing with those with a camera and my old CRT monitor. If you move around juuust right, you could make the scan lines disappear. Then you make your epic halo headshot montage
@@thefrub My dad works at microsoft and i get u bannned because i don't like you.
That intermodulation really is lovely.
It seems like Brazil has been using electronic voting for some time.
How does it handle the trust-issue?
In Germany's paper-system, each voter can make sure that his vote is counted correctly. Simply by staying in the voting-room and witnessing the count in the evening.
How can a voter in Brazil be sure that his vote has been counted?
I read some more about the system and can give the answer myself:
The voter just has to trust the process. He cannot check whether his vote was counted correctly or not.
The protection against external hackers is incomplete and there is zero protection against insiders.
They cant lmao
@@EpaminaidosAlmost true, thank god there's no fraud and we just have a lot of bad voters and uneducated people.
If even NASA was invaded by hackers, let alone electronic voting machines, I don't trust this fraudulent system
I'm kinda surprised this didn't get marked.
This is reminds me of the nugget about how seemingly everyone involved in cybersecurity refuses to have "smart house" technology. When you know about the vulnerabilities, you prefer physical security features.
I'm not afraid of vulnerabilities. If I know what I am installing, what is running, if it's up to date and I can update it myself from trusted source then I have nothing against it. I do have problem with smart gadgets I have no control over which send data to private company on private server (cloud), can record voice or picture (no thanks, I will not share these with anyone even if I'm not talking about any secrets) and on which I can't change or update the firmware. Of course it's a choice between convenience and security. I can setup smart home with full control and privacy but it will take time and I will have to actively manage it, including running my own server, be it at home or somewhere on VPS. For me that's not worth the effort and I will rather keep my home stupid, there is not that much to control anyway.
@@jan.tichavsky I have a few smart home features, but they are on their separate network with no internet access.
Well, that’s just because you can’t trust most manufacturers. If I make it myself, well, I trust myself, and if it’s open source, at least I and security professionals can inspect it for vulnerabilities, and even if the company goes out of business, you can still use it.
"ALEXA, How much of my conversations do you record and send to Amazon?"
The S in "I.O.T." stands for "Security".
this video has already aged like fine wine
Why?
@@hopin8krzys He's probably referencing the shitshow that was the Iowa caucus.
@@Trinexx42 ye I was
The Iowa caucus is a nice piece of imperial evidence to reinforce Tom's claim
@Orlando Rotundo what?! why, what makes you think a company for collecting caucus data funded by Assigieg would be untrustworthy in the slightest!
come to brazil, to talk about our experience with eletronic votes and how the government deals with the election
And it looks like the Tory leadership contest could go online. Methinks they didn't ask for the opinion of a cybersecurity expert.
boy is this relevant now...
😎
Don't use this video as an example to justify Trump's lies. Don't trust people who does so. The content of the video is fair and correct, but so is NOT the Trump claims regarding voter fraud.
@Steven R it's easier to rig one thing (presidential race) than several things (presidential race, house, senate). All of them should be subject to scrutiny!
@@thulyblu5486 they filled in biden out of hate and it blinded them so that they completely forgot to vote for the lawmakers, the pure example of blind hatred.
@Steven R The ballot is not the only place where things can get changed as explained in this video
Also, here in Brazil, people don't just vote on their phones or computers. That's complete nonsense. No one does that. We go to locations determined by the local government, but instead of a booth where you insert your paper, there is an electronic device.
I want to add that we have a thing called Public Security Test that allows anyone interested in trying to hack to register for this test.
Also these Brazilians votting devices do not have Internet access.
And we don't have to wait 3662574 years to know the results. We know in the same day.
And any of these arguments refute any of his points. And Brazilian elections cannot be audited. Do you actually believe in the reliability of Brazilian election system?
@@plinsavi how it can not be be audited? I just said that the system is available for public eyes to check its safety.
Here in brazil we, unfortunaly, use electronic voting
Brazilian electronic voting is totally secure
@@julyanaxel201 No like, every single time there is something very strange, this year a city with 150 people got 150k votes
@@jubscreuto is the earth flat?
@@julyanaxel201 No 💀
@@julyanaxel201 Hahahahahahahahaha! Oh, wait, you're serious? Let me laugh even harder: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Its because of this that we in Brasil know the results in the same day, and in usa the delay suggests People to invade the parlament.
The German Supreme Court declared the electronic voting system unconstitutional since it does not comply with the transparency required by law, that is, the voting procedure can be verified by citizens at all stages without the need to have or have expertise (2009)
In theory it makes sense, but in practice it's impossible for a common citizen to verify all the process and a big number of votes.
@@MarcioNSantos The German Supreme Court does not agree
@@robertojacobbalcells8994 Not gonna lie but the German government or affiliated authorities should not be the ultimate end-all-be-all on matters of digitalization. Germany is terribly outdated in every technological regard.
@@danielwanner281 What the court says has nothing to do with technology, it’s about citizen control and audit
@@robertojacobbalcells8994 that's why they want the voting machines
7:40 "To break an -electronic- election, you don't _actually_ need to break it: *you just need to cast enough doubt on the result."*
Hmmm...
Well here we are
how does that work then, because the last 2 times ive voted ive had a letter saying my vote was not counted as my signature didn't match up 100% 👀
Hello Tom, thank you again and again for this video that is full of wisdom.
Had to share your video again and again in this Presidential election in Taiwan. As we have the foremost experts in election fraud as the main opposition party (KMT, used to have more votes than there's population in a given area), the maximum trust level is needed to guarantee fairness.
Literally everything is manual, transparent, and open to multiple witnesses at each step of the way, including counting. Witness can raise objection on if the vote counted is valid or not, or if it is counted to the right candidate. As well as everything is recorded officially as well as by spectators and witnesses.
With the foremost election fraud expert as one of the party, and a savage neighbor... Air tight security in election is an absolute necessity.
Thanks again.
Surprised youtube hasn't put a US election flag on this too.
Why would they, this isn't about USA. Not everything is.
The world doesn't revolve around the US.
Wake up call! There are almost a hundred other democracies where this is relevant. Each of them has elections too.
@@Needformadness2 Because youtube automated systems don’t always know context so they can flag things that aren’t what the programmed parameters might be
I remember back in March, CZcams was flagging a couple Plague Inc videos thanks to COVID
If I recall it’s mostly been sorted out
Because it is too old to be flagged
@@Guztav1337 Yea but youtube only cares about one right now.
This reminds me of that Onion video about the voting machines voting one of themselves as president
me too.
Isn't that what happened, basically?
And the other one where they had a ridiculously complex machine with thousands of moving parts that took hours to fill out unless you voted for the "preferred" candidate by pressing a single big red button.
I need a link.
What is an onion video
As Venezuelan I confirm.
And then I see this vid in my recommendations, right after watching the news on AZ having voting machine issues.
Tom: Electronic voting is a bad Idea
Brazilians: hold my urna eletrônica
meio difícil segurar ela, ainda mais se forem os modelos mais antigos que pesam 20 Kg, a atual pesa 9Kg mas ainda é meio pesada
@@eduardofsilva uahehuaehuahe pqp
@@GustavoCesario. Mas é vdd, tenta pegar um bloco de concreto de 9 quilos e ve se tu fica de boas umas 2 horas segurando ele.
Brazil is full of bad ideas :(
@@ricardokenji1 prove that the Electronic voting machine it's a bad idea
Hackers: *play doom on electronic voting machines*
Todd Howard: Write that down! Write that down!
It just works!
Better launch than fo76
Hodd toward mad lad
Yes, I will by my skyrim that only works on a voting machine.
yo I'm 666th liker
I would love to see a follow up about this covering ZKP (zero knowledge proof) computing, and it’s implications on the feasibility of electronic or even digital voting.
poor tom has to make a new video every 5 years with the same exact title every time
I think the basis of Tom's reasoning is that no matter how much you try to use technological advances:
1- It's hard to verify the correctness by people who aren't expert
2- it's even harder to make sure it's robust (many things considered secure in the past are now considered totally unfit for use...)
3- a single exploit could completely flip the nation results instead of just a couple hundred forged votes
So ZKP are an even bigger pain....
In Belgium we use electronic voting. It is just like on paper: you go to the voting office, go in a voting box and you vote on a computer. That prints your vote on paper (with a bar code) so you can check it. You fold it and have to put it in a box, just like on paper.
That's just an expensive pen.
Here in brazil we consider that as paper vote since you compare both numbers, the electronic votes and the physical votes, if the two match its all good, if not then there's something wrong, here we just vote on the electronic, you press a few buttons, the machine says "you voted for X candidate" and that's it
Hello fellow Merksem dude