Roger Zelazny's Amber and Chaos | Worlds of Speculative Fiction (lecture 7)
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This is the seventh session in a new series of monthly lectures and discussions, featuring Dr. Gregory Sadler, and hosted by the Brookfield Public Library. The series focuses on philosophical themes in the works and world of selected classic and contemporary fantasy, science fiction, horror, and other speculative fiction genre authors.
We continue the series by focusing in this session on the classic science fiction/fantasy author Roger Zelazny Chronicles of Amber series of novels.
You can get the books we are discussing at the links below:
Nine Princes in Amber - amzn.to/2DfNlVz
The Guns of Avalon - amzn.to/2D11EJV
Sign of the Unicorn - amzn.to/2Fz2QGh
The Hand of Oberon - amzn.to/2DcGc8g
The Courts of Chaos - amzn.to/2muBN69
Authors we have covered in the series so far are J.R..R. Tolkein, A.E. Van Vogt, C.S. Lewis, Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, Roger Zelazny, Ursula K. Leguin, Michael Moorcock, Philip K. Dick, Mervyn Peake, George R.R. Martin, Philip Jose Farmer, Madeline L'Engle, Douglas Adams, Anne McCaffrey, Orson Scott Card, Iain Banks, H.P. Lovecraft, William Gibson, C.L. Moore, Octavia Butler, Jorge Luis Borges, Fritz Leiber, Robert Heinlein, L. Sprague de Camp, Andre Norton, Arthur Clarke, Robert Howard, Gene Wolfe, C. J. Cherryh, Jack Vance, Edgar Allan Poe, G.K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Tanith Lee, Gordon Dickson, August Derleth, Karl Edward Wagner, Aldous Huxley, Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley, China Mieville, Walter Miller, Cordwainer Smith, Liu Cixin, R. Scott Bakker, Stanislaw Lem, Neal Stephenson's, Philip Pullman, Olaf Stapledon, Veronica Roth, J.G. Ballard, Dan Simmons, Andrzej Sapkowski, Kim Stanley Robinson, N. K. Jemisin, Terry Pratchett, and Steven Erickson
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#Philosophy #Worldbuilding #SpeculativeFiction #Literature #Analysis #Books #Fantasy #Zelazny #Metaphysics #Amber #Chaos
I just stumbled across your class and totally enjoyed it. Roger Zelazny is one of my favorite authors and I actually got to meet him at a Con. The Amber series was so well done and worth re-reading multiple times. Thanks for the discussion about his works.
You're very welcome - and that's pretty cool, getting to meet him!
The one lady was mistaken at the end when she said that Stephen King doesn't have a book serial. King has the Dark Tower books.
Zelazny paved the way for writers like R R Martin and Rothfuss. R R Martin sites Zelazny as a major influence. Zelazny is a wonderful writer who laid out his imaginings in a unique way. I have never heard Rothfuss site Zelazny as an influence but he is there in his brilliant works.
He is indeed a great writer and thinker
I heard rothfuss mention Zelazny as an influence on one of the CZcams interviews
@@xnrivudxkskalflvk4075 which one?
Thanks. One of the many things I love about this series is how Zelazny has his characters contemplate whether all realities already exist somewhere in shadow, or whether the characters themselves actually create such places by willing it so. It reminds me of the old 'discovery vs invention' argument about mathematics (not to mention arguments as to the nature of our own reality.) I suppose it also bears on the idea in physics of infinite dimension. I think of it as Order and Chaos creating a kind of tension between them, like the poles of a magnet. One reviewer said, "Roger Zelazny breaks rules most other writers only suspect exist." That's so right! tavi.
Yes, I was very pleasantly surprised going back to the series in my 40s. I think I might reread it again this summer
I had the distinct pleasure and honor of meeting him as a teenager and his words of encouragement more than almost anything else has made me the man I am today and I look forward to the day my teen son will dive I to the works of the legendary Roger Zelazny, may we meet again,just not real soon.
That's very cool, and I'm glad to read it!
We're looking at the second set of Amber books this year in Worlds of Speculative Fiction
@@GregoryBSadler cool I'll keep an eye out for this next video.
Great series! I'm always delighted to hear your discussion on a wide range of topics, especially those like fantasy/sci fi, which I wouldn't have expected on a channel I first discovered for philosophy. Always interested to hear your opinion on works I'm familiar with, or in this case ones I now intend to check out.
Thanks! Glad you enjoy the talks!
You are right that most of Zelazny's strong characters are male, but I can think of one really strong, memorable female character Zelazny wrote - Corwin's sister Fiona. Her speech in "Sign of the Unicorn" about why everyone is a viable suspect except for her is brilliant. I think it ends with the phrase, "and I, of course, am innocent of all but malice."
Yes, I suppose we should count her in.
the innocent of all but malice speech! yesss
I found the female characters in the first series (Corwin's) to be rather weak and mostly just background pieces, but the second series had much stronger female characters. They were often key players moving pieces around the board.
@@shazariahl Dara was a key player moving things around in the first series, too. And Fiona. But other than them, I agree.
Great video. Not many people explore these works to the depths required. I appreciate Zelazny's world building and social dynamics. His writing style and follow through...can be frustrating. I also think people don't give Zelanzy credit for the female characters. They are consequential and critical to the story, treated as equals and as peers...equal in their precociousness, as well which is something many authors avoid.
Comment on life in the Asimov Robot/Foundation universe. The reason, he suggested, that human life or sentient life was possible on Earth was because of the relative size of our moon. This hard science view was prophetic as he had only our solar system for an example and none of the modern exoplanet data. It was a hunch that other stars had planets and that these planets had moons, and that these planets had moons with a small relative size.
Earth is unique in having such a large moon. It is assumed that most moons are captured objects. The formation of Earth's moon is debated but the most accepted theory is that a Pluto-to-Mars sized object hit the first Earth.
The result of a deep but glancing blow between the planetoid and Earth were two molten bodies and a ton of debris.
How does a large moon help life?
This is where Asimov's astrobiology knowledge allows him to be prophetic. A large moon is a stabilizing force on climate. The tidal forces between the two bodies prevents Earth from freezing over meaning that Earth can be in the outer reaches of the Goldilocks zone where the sun's energy isn't too high and could swing our climate in the opposite direction. The Moon, in essence, adds inertia to our climate.
Asimov's argument and theory was that the moon's stabilizing force allowed life to evolve further than other species on other worlds. Basically, though life could be ancient on other worlds, freezing or flashing events may cause global extinction events too frequently to allow for higher life forms.
So the theory is sound...but obviously for literature, it is also a device to allow humans dominion over the stars and was also how Asimov decided to handle the Fermi paradox in his world building.
I think Zelazny is magnificent and to emphasize your comments about him being not only nearly omniscient in the literary sense and poetic, he also he a devilish streak of sarcastic humor. This short poem is from his 1969 novel, "Creatures of Light and Darkness". I hope everyone enjoys it.
The Agnostic's Prayer(Roger Zelazny, Creatures of Light and Darkness, © 1969)
Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen.
I think I should have said prayer not poem, oh well. Roger died in his 50s of cancer, what he could have gone on to do is staggering. The 1st Amber books were my introduction to his work and I enjoyed your discussion with appreciation.
Glad you enjoyed the video! Yes, he has a biting sense of humor, to be sure!
Really enjoyed this. 👍
Thanks! I'm really glad to read that!
Now that we're in these covid-19 times, I'm doing this series in a virtual form. Thinking about doing the five later Amber books for a session this coming year, and perhaps some of the other novels as well
I first read Nine Princes in Amber early in highschool, I just had to try the weirdly named book (and author). It was a straight adventure story. as far as I was concerned. It got me interested in the Tarot, though, and once I had studied that a bit, I realized Amber had an entire deeper layer, Jungian stuff and all. "It's Tarot all the way down!"
You can follow Corwin's journey through the Arcana, starting as the amnesiac Fool, walking the Pattern to become the Magician, and so on. Finally, he creates his own World.
Corwin's journey is epic. THE epic.
Then Merlin takes up the story, and it's a personal journey, which was great, but it couldn't really compete with the Monomyth that Corwin explored.
In any event, thanks for your discussion and lecture about the scientifically proven* best writer ever, RZ.
* OK, sheer anecdotal evidence. Double-blind, randomly-controlled experiments are tricky with Fans.
You’re welcome
Did you ever read Charles Williams' The Greater Trumps? He was a British author, in the Inklings club with Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. I found it riveting. It's about the original Tarot Deck (or so some of the characters believe.)
@@mosart7025 Not yet, but I found a copy on Australian Gutenberg, so I'll give it a look. Thanks!
@@madbradfreeman No problems mate😁
Apologies if I'm mistaken, as it's been many years since I've read the Amber novels, but I believe Oberon *did* succeed in repairing the pattern, and died in the process. Corwin, when being pursued by the storm resulting from Oberon's effort, had no way to know if Oberon had succeeded, and created a pattern of his own so as to err on the side of caution - and also because he couldn't outrun the storm and successfully convey the Jewel of Judgment to the Courts. The result was two patterns existing, thus establishing an unprecedented imbalance between order and chaos.
I think partly fixed it, right?
@@GregoryBSadler I believe Corwin partially fixed it when he had to negotiate it to chase Brand through it in book 4, but that we learned later (likely in book 6) that Oberon was successful in his effort, the result being two full patterns in existence. Again though, it's possible the fog of memory has me thrown off.
I do plan to re-read (not per se, but in audio format) it soon though, and I'll be sure to report back when I do, and either verify that or apologize for the error and confusion.
I enjoyed the video, by the way, seems like a fun course.
I like the vedic version of cosmology and it is only after listening to this discussion that I am realizing how much of the backbone of the Amber books/stories/ideas seems to come straight out of the vedic ideas, albeit reinterpreted for his story setting - sort of like Lord of Light seemed to do.
I think a lot of people don't realize that society at the time was very different than today.It's like looking at a car built in the '60s by today's standards and saying they should have done this or that.If you weren't alive then,you use the standards you grew up with. If you look at Jules Verne or H.G.Wells type of writing,kind of formal is what I'm getting at.language and use of slang is another.
@Gregory B. Sadler - I loved your presentation on my favourite master of the literary art. Zelazny was a real gem, taken too soon. I wonder, by any chance are you aware of his speaker role at Bubonicon 13? (August 28-30, 1981) There is reference to Zelazny's "Chicken effect speech" and I would dearly love to find out what it was.
I'm not aware of it. Sounds interesting
@@GregoryBSadler Thanks for the prompt reply. :) To say more on the matter: Every couple of years I go digging through the web and the wayback machine to see if I can find a transcript or account of the speech in particular. George R.R Martin and several other 'big names' have referenced the speech in passing, but I've yet to find any more information other than it was 'something that whose who heard it, will never forget' - quite the mystery :)
Geburah82 For all we know, it might be an inside joke
@@GregoryBSadler it might well be. Even if it was something profound, I suspect there'd be a sharp edge of wit attached. Other than his reading of his own books, I've seen a few excerpts of Zelazny talking, despite never having had the pleasure of seeing him in person. He certainly had a way with spoken word, as much as he did written.
The woman who only read the first 2 Amber books, and had such a problem with people using swords and then smoking a cigarette was rather sad. Why is someone like that involved in a discussion of this kind?
She also said that there were too many references to other things - I guess historically or culturally. Which also seemed similarly sad.
I read the Amber books when I was 13, and had no problem with anything in any of them. Indeed, let's be clear, they're fun books, and I read them as light relief when I was reading a lot of Thomas Hardy - which I was also reading for pleasure, not for school purposes.
I really enjoyed Zelazny's books, though the fellow in the video is absolutely right that Zelazny is beyond hopeless when it comes to women characters or when it comes to characters whose sexuality is 1950s. Which is a shame as this lack of vision almost fatally undermined his best book, Lord of Light. As long as one can put aside this, the books are fun on the whole, not difficult, and take about an afternoon to read. But look for much gender and sexuality sophistication in the young adult writing of Andre Norton 0 and she famously never wrote sex scenes. But difficult or demanding of the reader, these books are not. Good bath tub reading.
You know, isn't it weird that you get to focus on some person from years back saying a few things, and complain in the present about it. Not sure why you're involved in a "discussion of this kind" if you're going to use your space to basically complain about someone else
Any chance of delving into that virtuoso wordsmith of speculative fiction, Mr. Jack Vance?
Already answered in the video description. You probably want to sign up for the free online class.
I don't read Amber books, but from what I heard from this video they sound to me less like philosophy, more as a kind of mythology with philosophical background. More concretly, the stories when gods alredy exists and they create peoples, islands, stars and so one, using to that some material things, like milk to create Milky Way and fights they own siblings. This stories sound to me as stories of youngest generations of gods coming to power.
This hero of books who creates more true earth, is something similiar to version of greek mythology found in series of games ,,God of War''. Main hero of the game, who was god at some point, kills greeks gods and open world to rule of mankind. This is the same motive: god lowers his status to elevate man.
They're not straight-out academic philosophy, yes.
Depending on what you like to read, as always, you may or may not like these. Don't look too deeply, not really sure there's an underlying theme to these other than a character always reacting to situations. It just happens that these protagonists/antagonists are greater beings than the rest of the individuals they meet.
They are a fast read, and I usually equate that to a superficial story; that being said, I loved all of the characters, and especially the way he went about why they were/are greater than we are.
Always worth a read is Zelazny, enjoy!
Another interesting idea here is that everything was chaos before the forming of the pattern. It's literally order being imposed on the chaos. Its similar to most creation myths, like god creating light in the darkness, or whatever.
Indeed. Except in this case, the chaos forces are still around and trying to undo the Pattern
I might have missed something on the nature of trumps, but when Corwin escaped from his prison through the trump of the Lighthouse of Cabra that Dworkin drew, did the picture on the wall disappear; otherwise, Eric would know where he was?
We'd have to go back to the books and see if there's any reference
@@GregoryBSadler I just finished an audiobook of Nine Princes of Amber. I was watching some Harlan Ellison interviews, and his reference to Zelazny intrigued me. I had not heard of him.
Well, you're in for a treat then. Zelazny wrote a lot of great stuff!
Corwin set the straw in his cell on fire - the ashes covered up the drawing - later in the series, he cleans up the wall of his cell so that he can find Dworkin.
It's like the Matrix ( = almost like shadows) was a bit inspired by him in it's cosmological aspect and then there is the many worlds theory.. Amber screams for making a grandiose tv serie from it but (commercial !!! ) disappointment is always close: John Carter, Dune.. it's not easy even if imho those two movies presented more a real SF mindworld than Avatar which was wonderful but too romantic, too sentimental, too Hollywood.
Yes, I'd love to see a show adaptation
haven't watched this yet, this is my pre-watching comment: Amber is a modern fictionalized version of hermetic wisdom and platonic ideals, it's essentially a gnostic text in the same way a lot of Phillip k dick is essentially modern Gnosticism. you might get into some of this but before I listen and forget, I want to put this out there. Amber is some deep heremetic shit.
Amber is more neo-Platonic (and those guys, whether pagan, Christian, or Jewish, all rejected gnosticism). Dick is indeed gnostic