George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire | Worlds of Speculative Fiction (lecture 12)
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
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This is the twelvth session in a new series of monthly lectures and discussions, featuring Dr. Gregory Sadler, and hosted by the Brookfield Public Library. The series focuses on philosophical themes in the works and world of selected classic and contemporary fantasy, science fiction, horror, and other speculative fiction genre authors.
We continue the series by focusing in this session on the classic science fiction/fantasy/horror author George R.R. Martin and his Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones series.
You can get the books we are discussing at the links below:
Song of Ice and Fire - amzn.to/2FyqGBZ
Clash of Kings - amzn.to/2CZbUm2
Storm of Swords - amzn.to/2D1HZcS
A Feast for Crows - amzn.to/2Fwfg1A
A Dance with Dragons - amzn.to/2EGURWa
Authors we have covered in the series so far are J.R..R. Tolkein, A.E. Van Vogt, C.S. Lewis, Isaac Asimov, Frank Herbert, Roger Zelazny, Ursula K. Leguin, Michael Moorcock, Philip K. Dick, Mervyn Peake, George R.R. Martin, Philip Jose Farmer, Madeline L'Engle, Douglas Adams, Anne McCaffrey, Orson Scott Card, Iain Banks, H.P. Lovecraft, William Gibson, C.L. Moore, Octavia Butler, Jorge Luis Borges, Fritz Leiber, Robert Heinlein, L. Sprague de Camp, Andre Norton, Arthur Clarke, Robert Howard, Gene Wolfe, C. J. Cherryh, Jack Vance, Edgar Allan Poe, G.K. Chesterton, Lewis Carroll, Tanith Lee, Gordon Dickson, August Derleth, Karl Edward Wagner, Aldous Huxley, Bram Stoker, Mary Shelley, China Mieville, Walter Miller, Cordwainer Smith, Liu Cixin, R. Scott Bakker, Stanislaw Lem, Neal Stephenson's, Philip Pullman, Olaf Stapledon, Veronica Roth, J.G. Ballard, Dan Simmons, Andrzej Sapkowski, Kim Stanley Robinson, N. K. Jemisin, Terry Pratchett, and Steven Erickson
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#Philosophy #Worldbuilding #SpeculativeFiction #Literature #Analysis #Books #Fantasy #Grimdark #Martin #SongOfIceAndFire #SOIAF
I'm so happy right now that you actually made this a thing. yay! :D
You mean the SoIF part? Or the whole series?
this very of game of thrones video. I will check the others out later, got a lot to catch up on. :D
***** Cool - you know, I also have another videorecorded talk from years back on GoT/SoIF in my channel
Euron Greyjoy is my pick for most evil, and I'm talking exclusively about his book version. Raping his brothers, enslaving and torturing large groups of people, blood sacrifice, and all fueled by likely being a warg (former pupil of or having previously met Bloodraven, evidenced by his dream of flying and the red eye and crow imagery similar to Bloodraven). How does a man captain a ship of mutes? Skin changing. To quote Varamyr: "Abomination. Abomination. Abomination"
Ramsay Bolton is the epitome of human evil. Tywin is the epitome of political evil. Euron is the epitome of supernatural evil. He's attempting to use blood sacrifice to attain god like status.
I also gave a like, save, and subscribe. This is awesome stuff.
very interesting and well-argued analysis
Thanks for the lecture, you're making it easier to understand why I loved this series as a teen. I never could put my finger on it before. Limited character perspectives were one aspect of it, but so many other fantasy writers also pull that off extremely well.
GRRM's wide use of real historical examples for the worldbuilding was what sets him apart from other long-winded series of the same era. He uses a believable plot, which makes the history come alive. The sense of world would not be convincing without both historical research and effective writing. That's why I find other big fat fantasy hollow, in contrast.
Example: Many eunuch spymasters existed in history, but Varys feels more believable than slapping Bagoas into a fantasy setting.
Glad you enjoyed it
8:25 - not fan-girlish, that's exactyly the point. Martin is a master of character, and writes each point of view with a specific voice. Kudos to you for really picking up on that!
Also, Yay Moorcock!
Thanks!
I have been watching your philosophy videos for so long trying to get a good grasp on ASOIAF and now I find THIS?! Absolutely perfect, thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it. You might like this as well czcams.com/video/7v2YhKKT_Wg/video.html
I commented earlier about how you'd be a good GOT character and asked someone to come up with a GOT, medieval themed name. I came up with one, by just putting your name backwards: Reldas Yrogerg!
Hahaha! A terrible name. Now I'm sure I'd be killed off super-early!
Pycelle is also a terrible name, but he survives everything! There's really interesting comments by the actor who plays him, I'll find them, if you're interested?
Plus, Tyrion would love you being around at court for all of your knowledge. Might be a good idea to play down the extent of your friendship though, considering.
Tolkien was not "more disciplined" in keeping to a trilogy. The LotR was originally intended to be a single book, part of a two volume set with The Silmarillion being the other. It became a triology because of financial limitations set by the publisher. It was actually written internally as six volumes, intended to be one book. The "trilogy" came about by pure chance after the book was finished. Still, a good lecture. Thank you.
Glad you found it still a good lecture. Yep, had forgotten about the backhistory.
Gregory - I also think that more would watch this if it was split into shorter videos, even just 2 or 3. The discussion is very inspiring but it's people talking - albeit about something very interesting to a lot of people - not a lecture. When you talk about the philosophy that's interesting in itself. Both the philosophy and the discussion are highly worthwhile to be focused in on by themselves.
lesjconj It's really easy for you, the viewer, watching the free video to divide the viewing into three parts. You hit the pause button
I'm thinking more getting it out to other people, ease of sharing whats of specific interest.
Well, if we're looking for someone to manage the video production, we'll keep you in mind
Great lecture. I would have liked a little more about the King, though.
A big theme in the books is the cyclical nature of history. The lineage of the Targaryen kings is the most developed of any of the major families. Some characters correspond exactly to the Targaryen kings. For example Robert is Aegon IV. Robb is Daeron I, sharing the same name and identical fate. Dany is Aegon I, who after taking over Westeros will mate with her two brothers. It seems likely to me that the present conflict with the others has happened before in the past, and will happened again, and the final moral of the story is that all of the characters and their tribulations are nothing in comparison history.
Yes, that's an important theme. Later down the line, when I do a larger project on SoIF, it'll get the discussion it deserves
Congratulations on being renewed for another year and a Happy and Successful 2017 to you.
Having consumed all previous material, I'm looking forward to the upcoming work, and I hope to see at some point the Witcher series by Andrzej Sapkowski, which might be the basis for an interesting discussion.
Somebody else recommended that one as well
Adams' Hitchhikers series! Thank you so much for all your content Gregory :)
Yes indeed! Looking forward to rereading them for this year
Stannis is going to do that thing. I know it sucks, but he will.
Will you do a lecture on Gene Wolfe? If not, you really should check out his books. Prefect mix of scifi/fantasy, fables, mythology; good stuff.
I only read The Shadow of the Torturer, back in my teens. Good stuff, but didn't follow up on it. You'll find the list of authors for 2017 by following the link in the description.
You really should read the rest of The Book of the New Sun, its an absolute masterpiece. Shadow is just an introduction, it doesn't get into the real philosophical meat of the nature of time and space and memory. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascian_language Just this concept alone is mind blowing. Of the total list, I would rank Wolfe above everyone other than Peake and Borges. (Maybe tied with Lovecraft.)
As this is the first time I've commented, I have to make the obligatory you're great and I love everything you do statements. Thanks for these videos, I look forward watching all of them and next years too.
Charles Gillingham Well, I can say that I remember enjoying Wolfe when I read him, years back. Next time around - if we're renewed for 2018, I'll put him into the mix
Great, now I have a reason to live another year.
Charles Gillingham I certainly hope that you have many others!
Dr. Sadler, given Robert A. Heinlein's extensive world building, from his Future History to life in space, and his treatments of philosophical concepts such as solipsism, familial relations, World as Myth, etc., I am extremely curious why he has not been featured.
Simply because there's plenty of other writers I was more keen to discuss than Heinlein. You're right - those are key themes in his works. And so many other writers as well.
Down the line, if we do a third year's worth, I'll put him in there
Thank you for the response. I look forward to your analysis and the comments of those in attendance, should that ever come to pass.
Tuning into this as I prep for my own livestream this Friday on #GoT and philosophy. Very informative (as your videos always are), thank you!
You're welcome!
I believe we are getting 8 Books total. Winds of Winter is next followed by Dream of Spring.
Well. . . hopefully. I almost don't want to say anything to jinx it.
First of all, really enjoyed this ! my son and I have hundreds of hours of analysis of ASOIAF on youtube. But if I might correct you, it's TYRELL not martell from Highgarden, and the Queen of Thornes did tell Margaery she did it and told her to be quiet and don't worry about it - start working on Tommen. it's a small garden scene with Margaery and Olenna in the HBO show. Also, GRRM has said these things are going to happen with Stannis and Shireen.
I consider the show less canonical than the books myself. You're right - she does tell her in the show, but then again all of them die by the end of the latest season! Doesn't happen in the books so far, though - we'll have to see.
You're right about the Tyrell/Martell bit. Not sure what I had in mind.
Littlefinger strongly implies to Sansa in Sansa VI (Ch 68) of ASOS that the Queen of Thorns was involved.
asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=wager+hair+net&scope%5B%5D=asos
There is also this: www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23ab8r/
But as the comments say, Littlefinger would never put that much pressure on Sansa to do something that big on accident.
LIttlefinger is one bad MF. he is a sociopath only equal to Cersei. But here comes Bran. and he's going to reveal some things to Sansa about LF's intentions. and the photos of that little boy and a young Cat, yeah. here it comes.
Hi older brother "Middle Finger" is even mo` badder(worse)! lol
This was great. Even if cant really participate.
I just wish i had more people around me to discuss my readings with. So thanks for this.
Well, down the line, I'm going to create an online class going through this sort of stuff. . . .
Sir, you are amazing.
That's very nice to say, and I appreciate the compliment.
I think if you knew me better, you might have a different view, though!
Interesting discussion. Thanks for posting this and happy new year!
Happy new year to you and yours!
I think Varys is a good example of a morally grey character because you can make arguments for different things he does being good or evil and debate whether the good outweighs the evil in his character (I would argue that it does). Danaerys is another character like this. I don't see much redeeming or arguably good about Walder Frey's character
Yes, there's definitely some clearly evil characters. Saying things are grey rather than black and white doesn't rule that out
@@GregoryBSadler Agreed. I tend to like the characters with at least some greyness to them. While they may serve their purposes in the story neither Brienne of Tarth or Ramsay Bolton are all that interesting to read about as it is fairly easy to predict how they will act based on their being clearly good or clearly evil. Most of GRRM's characters have some nuance to them though.
Might be a bit random, but I feel that Gregory would be a good Character in GOT. Someone give him a midieval GOT type name, for his character...
I'm pretty sure I'd be dead fairly quickly!
You know your shit, man. I'm impressed. You should teach a class or something.
Margaery TYRELL is highly manipulative in the show. In the books, she's like 12 . . . I would say Petyr Baylish is the most manipulative aside from Euron Greyjoy, in the books. Where do you teach this class? I would love to enroll.
The free online class link is in the video description
Thanks, teacher man!
Interesting video! I have a couple of questions:
1) How do you think the story is gonna end? GRRM has been saying for a while now that it will be bittersweet, what do you think that encompasses?
2) What is your opinion about the show "whitewashing" popular characters? For instance, on the show, Tyrion is the poor little dwarf abused by his family, he's funny, he's smart etc. Sure, he has a drinking problem and likes his whores, but whatever. In contrast, in the books, Tyrion is somewhat of a narcissistic, ruthless little c*nt. In book 2, he doesn't hesitate to kill that singer for writing a song that would reveal a secret of his, and in book 5 he's a wreck, he basically abuses a whore in Volantis (among others). That scene in the show (last scene of S05E03 if I remember correctly) made me so angry when he refused to have sex with the whore because he "can't".
Another instance is Jon Snow, of course. In the books, he gets killed for making a completely selfish decision and violating his oath to the Night's Watch (aka abandoning the Night's Watch to go to Winterfell) whereas in the show they just hate him because he doesn't consider the wildlings to be scum.
I think it's a shame the showrunners don't dare to show these characters
how they really are in the books because then some fans might get angry
that their favourites are just as flawed as the rest.
Well 1), when Martin says it's going to be "bittersweet", I would expect that anyone could die, and die horribly, accomplishing nothing. . . .
2) I don't expect the show - any more than any other show does - to do justice to the books. While Tyrion has a darker streak in the book, I don't share the assessment of him being "somewhat of a narcissistic, ruthless little c*nt." At the very least, I'd say he's clearly not just that. In fact, I consider him and John Snow - in the books - to be two of the characters who do in fact grow, who try to work for some sort of common good.
I'd say that, in the books as well, there's a number of reasons that some of the Nights Watch betray John Snow, who is after all their commander - they manage to come together in (pun intended) a perfect storm. We don't know that he's actually dead, though, in the books.
I agree with your opinion about Tyrion, what I was trying to say is that this is also an important part of who he is, and the fact they neglected that in the show is a pity. Tyrion, especially in the first three books, does indeed think of the common good as well, but his downward spiral in book 5 was not shown at all, unfortunately.
Gregory - watch charisma on commands video about the Starks. How the main stark men all fail for very similar reasons.
It is quite strange to my ear to hear, around 48:12, that in ''Song of Ice and Fire'' and in medival times rulers need legitimacy to rule. In long run rulers always need to find way which make they rule legitime, in every day and age. We just need to watch world now, where in liberal democracy one side win democratic election and another will make everithing to prove that they rule is end of democracy and undemocratic choice. Our current way of political life liberal democracy also have it own credentials to be a ruling political system: it spread freedom, brake chains of old age, is the best or the least evil of all political systems. And of course, the source of power are the people and liberal democracy is a rule of the people. If it's not a way to make a political system warrant, I cannot imagine such way.
Why would noting that rulers in some places need legitimacy - which presumably is true - have to be automatically interpreted as denying that rulers in other places also need legitimacy?
It just sound like that to me, because we always think about us, that we are so much more sophisticated man, free from bounds of previous ages, from they chains of slavery. It is mostly bunch of pretty lies which we tell to ourself, if I can say it in that bitter way. I apologized if I understand your wrongly.
the shireen burning idea Came from George RR Martin hinself.
That may very well be. And maybe it will occur in the later books, though probably not. I was mainly interested in the fact that - whoever came up with it - it's not something occurring in the books
Gregory B. Sadler i dont Read the books so i dont really care but since Martin told the Showrunners his ideas this will most likely happen in the books as well such as the Hodor Reveal. That also Came out of Martins Pocket.
DrückebergerTV Well there you go. You're talking about something else. We're talking primarily about the books. Two different conversations.
Ramsay. Joff or Euron, for sure, would be the most evil characters.
GRRM's philosophy: more words means more money. Quantity over quality.