David Chalmers: The Hard Problem of Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #69
Vložit
- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- David Chalmers is a philosopher and cognitive scientist specializing in philosophy of mind, philosophy of language, and consciousness. He is perhaps best known for formulating the hard problem of consciousness which could be stated as "why does the feeling which accompanies awareness of sensory information exist at all?"
This episode is presented by Cash App. Download it & use code "LexPodcast":
Cash App (App Store): apple.co/2sPrUHe
Cash App (Google Play): bit.ly/2MlvP5w
PODCAST INFO:
Podcast website:
lexfridman.com/podcast
Apple Podcasts:
apple.co/2lwqZIr
Spotify:
spoti.fi/2nEwCF8
RSS:
lexfridman.com/feed/podcast/
Full episodes playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast
Clips playlist:
• Lex Fridman Podcast Clips
OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
2:23 - Nature of reality: Are we living in a simulation?
19:19 - Consciousness in virtual reality
27:46 - Music-color synesthesia
31:40 - What is consciousness?
51:25 - Consciousness and the meaning of life
57:33 - Philosophical zombies
1:01:38 - Creating the illusion of consciousness
1:07:03 - Conversation with a clone
1:11:35 - Free will
1:16:35 - Meta-problem of consciousness
1:18:40 - Is reality an illusion?
1:20:53 - Descartes' evil demon
1:23:20 - Does AGI need conscioussness?
1:33:47 - Exciting future
1:35:32 - Immortality
CONNECT:
- Subscribe to this CZcams channel
- Twitter: / lexfridman
- LinkedIn: / lexfridman
- Facebook: / lexfridmanpage
- Instagram: / lexfridman
- Medium: / lexfridman
- Support on Patreon: / lexfridman - Věda a technologie
I really enjoyed this conversation with David. Here's the outline:
0:00 - Introduction
2:23 - Nature of reality: Are we living in a simulation?
19:19 - Consciousness in virtual reality
27:46 - Music-color synesthesia
31:40 - What is consciousness?
51:25 - Consciousness and the meaning of life
57:33 - Philosophical zombies
1:01:38 - Creating the illusion of consciousness
1:07:03 - Conversation with a clone
1:11:35 - Free will
1:16:35 - Meta-problem of consciousness
1:18:40 - Is reality an illusion?
1:20:53 - Descartes' evil demon
1:23:20 - Does AGI need conscioussness?
1:33:47 - Exciting future
1:35:32 - Immortality
One very interesting thing that I observe right now with regard to your previous podcast with Cristos, is that I'm Korean and whenever I watch Korean contents I get recommendations which are almost Korean contents. As contrast, when I listen English contents which are mostly about science or podcast like yours, I get recommendations like Jazz or the other English contents lol.
I can't believe I'm commenting on CZcams. Awesome work. Keep it up.
@@MaximeTrepreau we can't you believe it? Is this your first ever CZcams comment?
1:07:03 clones -
Wouldn't the clone begin as a you and the diverge over time? Your experiences wouldn't be the same after the point of creation.
This was an interesting video. The idea of consciousness instantiation / copying is not one I've considered too much.
My current belief is that at some level of existence an intelligent species will evolve to be digital beings. At that point, any stimulation / experience becomes possible for the individuals, this leading to nihilism - because there are no more challenges to overcome or constraints.
Any such species that gains access to digital existence, I posit, will thus seek to create simulations with constraints that allow for meaning to be found for inhabitants. These simulatios might be like MMO worlds where entities join in. I believe there's a strong chance our universe is one of many parallel worlds where digital beings come for a 'playthrough' in order to have diverse experiences and meaning. This is also why video games are becoming more and more appealing and realistic - because they impose some constraint/challenge and present an interesting environment where meaning is easily found.
Seriously, Lex you need a standing ovation for your ability, or your personal interest, in selecting a guest for your podcast. It has been outstanding, I almost quit another podcasts and only listen yours, because you always have superlative guest for most of whom I personally am interested (maybe the reason is that my personal interest is highly correlated with that of yours, which is "how the heck the mind works?")
Lex doesn't push a agenda and listens even when disagrees with someone... whether is killing someone with a tie (Rogan) or the difficulties of computer vision (Jim Keller). Turning into a really great podcaster. Thanks
OMG! I am now 67 and I had this very same connection of musical tones equal certain colors. But this idea had come to me when I was in my twenties. I thought to myself, “Wow! I must be from another planet.” Little did I know it had a name. Thank you!
@@Yashua2Rule Probably never discovered except in manipulated computer simulations maybe, but the C7, G7 and F7 chords in blues are definitely blue, even on a red guitar 🎸😎
No Lex is awsome and can play the guitar and sing as well.
Good call on the adds at the beginning and not in the middle. Thanks for keeping the knowledge flowing I appreciate your hard work !
Lex your content is like mediations
My morning commutes have been blessed with such wisdom and open minded questioning.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you
You're welcome, Avi.
My meal prepping has been making me smarter, im hooked.
Amén!
@@nickolasgaspar9660 or trust
Lex developing one hell of a guest catalog salute!
You’ve quickly become the best science interviewer caster imo thanks dude!
2nd only to Sam Harris, IMHO.
unRheal Sam is not solely focused on science, he is more of a philosopher, speaking about ethics, morality, culture etc. Lex is S.T.E.M. all the way! But I see what you mean, Sam is Sam :)
@@unRheal Sam Harris is one massive arrogant ego. I used to listen but got tired of his arrogant "certainty" and constant pleas for money. I enjoyed watching him schooled by Sean Carroll.
@@steveperryman8102 Well.. frankly, I like a lot of what he says, and when I first noticed him on utube, then his sites and a few books.. It gave me an idea for how to write an AI. 1 in a million against all the billionaires, but I'm 53 now, and was pretty much depressed from my first memories, for the first 5 years of despising me and doing anything he could to make me feel like crap. We lived in the boonies, and so I literally had nobody else to socialize with except this demon and his 2 sisters, and my poor sister who was either "in the gang" or screwed.. the gang being all the kids but me. The parents ignored us literally as much as possible.
Anyway, cut a long, awful store very short, and I'm still depressed and suicidal at 50 till I started watching Sam.. the app helps, and he gave me the idea to use my programming/AI skills to try to write something to help the world. Even that tiny hope made a big difference. I don't listen to all the podcasts, and Lex is super awesome too.. even more on my personal topic.
Which one do you refer to with Sean Carroll? I like what Sam "preaches" about lies and he seems logical. I want to be right too, and will change my mind if proven wrong without hesitation. He's something like 6 weeks older than me, and I have to admit I'm jealous of his youth to adulthood. (except for the rat) And he gives $5k to charity a month... if I had $20k I could probably put together a prototype AI. Please let me know about Sean and Him..
Thanks.
@@unRheal there are grammar error, excluding the internet shorthands..
How can you write "AI", when your english alone causes confusion?
And it is not a virtue to just instantly change your when proven wrong. Being proven wrong can be a gift to be more insightful, so you can further develop your point. Maybe you were wrong because you didnt think deeply and widely enough to cover all the holes in your arguement, not because your argument or conclusion was incorrect. But you said you would instantly change your mind, so you will never find the truth in your original arguement because you stopped thinking and just adapted the other's arguememt which may also be wrong.
I love how he begins with some small talk and easy openers.... "do you think we live in a simulation?". This is why i love this cast.
This podcast needs to be shared more, this is an absolutely mindblowing conversation. I had to go through it twice, just ot enjoy the ride another time. (ok fine, I listened to it 3 times lol)
I top off my "lol" sentence endings with an extra "lol" for good measure. "lol". LOL ... ALL THE LOLS...
This is by far the best interview with Chalmers I have ever seen.
When I first heard about David Chalmers and the "hard problem of consciousness", I thought he was just some new age thinker that didn't want to accept modern science. How wrong I was. I realize now David Chalmers is a very smart naturalist who honestly wants to understand consciousness and is willing to think outside the box to get there. I feel a lot of committed physicalist neuroscientists don't understand his position and just dismiss him as a guy believing in souls.
I've watched many videos from many thinkers on this subject, as I was trying to gauge how out of the mainstream thinking my impressions are, for I honestly think that consciousnesses does not exist more than the "red" or "green" color exist e.g. there's no physical property "color" just wave length of light to be absorbed or transmitted. I think that the so called consciousnesses is just a big, giant and complex bag of tricks caused by natural selection. So far, the only relatively famous thinker that does agree with me is Daniel Dennett, do you know any other?
@@freedom_aint_free you can’t get around essence. Different colors, sounds, organisms, tastes and smells all have individuate essences wether or not they’re “tricks” created by the senses.
Even though everything is ultimately connected (air molecules touching me are touching air molecules touching you wherever you are) everything is ultimately differentiated. Super interesting paradox
@@squamish4244 On the contrary, the post-Cartesian exclusion of introspection is anti-empirical and hence anti-scientific. And to be more exact, Buddhist science is not focused on subjective mind, but what is usually called asubjective.
@@squamish4244 'Asubjective' is a philosophical term for linguistic categories and/or experiences where subject-object division has not risen. For example in my language (Finnish) a verb in indefinite person (ie. asubjective) can form a full grammatical sentence without any subject and object. In this sense, subject-object is a codependent relation, but not foundational, as we can speak and experience also without that analytical division. This makes all the debates about whether subjectivism OR objectivism kinda silly.
To comprehend European psycho-history, the horrible 'crisis of late middle age' (worth doing a search and some reading) and the consequent great which hunt, targeting and criminalizing shamanic experiences in every form, have been very formative collective trauma. The witch hunt did not really end, it morphed into the materialist psychiatry of enlightenment philosophy, ban of psychadelics etc. control mechanisms to limit what is allowed to experience and what not.
@@squamish4244 Ah, a historian! :) I think a main cause of the crisis was unsustainability of Roman agriculture and ecological collapse of primary production, which was behind feudal land slavery of mining of fertile top soil also after it became unproductive. 'Civilization and Top Soil' is a classic work in this field, even though it does not discuss the Late Middle age crisis of the four horsemen running rampant. After the crisis, IIRC the system changed to 3-4 year rotation from 2 year rotation or no rotation. But doesn't seem we've really solved the unsustainability problem of permanent field cultivation, as it's now become very dependent from extensive use of fossil energy.
Scapegoating comes with hierarchic class societies, that seems fairly strong universal.
My tribe - Savo aka Forest Finns - were innovators of swidden / hack and slash, specialicing in old spruce forest (which is invasive monoculture in these parts), and that's at least possible to do in sustainable way. But the colonizing state structures banned our way of life. Forest is our home and temple, and I've also noticed the similarities between our shamanic and animistic world views, as they are preserved in our language etc., and Eastern advaita etc philosophies.
A good general strategy is not to let some diagnosis to define the whole of you, but to turn your "weakness" into your superpower. Channeling that into some worthy cause and balancing with other features of your character. I've had couple of what Western psychiatry defines as bipolar psychotic episodes, I went through the second one without white coats. They are or at least can be deeply transformative spiritual experiences of facing and overcoming deep fears, etc.
I realize I’m asking for stuff without appreciating your channel. This is my favorite CZcams channel and exposes me to so much that I wouldn’t otherwise see! Thank you so much for taking time to do such a great job interview interesting people. It’s great how you are prepared to get as much value as possible from you guests
Chalmers looks and sounds so chill. Gotta love his flexibility of thought when it comes to all the possible likely (and seemingly not so likely) interpretations of the nature of consciousness.
Lex, you ask fantastic questions. They are so well thought out, and phrased. You are very thoughtful with the questions, and although at times it comes off as non-candid, it leads to amazing conversation. Thank you so much for all you do and for asking the hard questions.
Hey Lex ! Thank you for these brilliant discussions that you share with us. We are indeed fortunate to have a dedicated person like you in the society who helps people understand AI , Philosophy , Economics and beyond by having such meaningful conversations. Be it doing dishes , or driving to work I love listening to your conversations. Your message of having a curious mind wrapped in a blanked of kindness is something we all should take a note of. More power to you and looking forward to more such talks. :)
Thoroughly engrossing. I want to say how much I appreciate your ability stay right with your guests intellectually, and further elevate the conversations. You consistently provide a very high quality learning experience. Much respect and appreciation.
I’ve seen Dave in so many physics youtube videos over the years, it’s been wonderful to enjoy hearing an in-depth conversation with him for the first time. Thank you Lex and Dave!
Loving your podcasts Lex. Keep them up! The depth of your questions and your ability to dig deeper is something most interviewers don't have.
Ah philosophy and computer science, my favorite blend 🤗
think you would enjoy tom campbell "my big toe"
@@johnharris3118 Excellent recommendation, I looked up the book, and now I am reading it as we speak. Reading the preference alone was enough to get my attention. Thank you!
@@carlossegura403 Mind, nervous system and computation relationship leads to deep learning topic.
I actually went to sleep this time without checking youtube(which I deeply regret), but woke up to this!!!! What a start to the Day!!! Thank You Lex!!!!!!
Been following your podcast for a while now, and this is by far one of the top contemporary philosophical "casual" conversations I ever heard in my life.
Thanks for this! Always a treat whenever the guest is a philosopher. Totally enjoyed this.
Lex, your podcast is unbelievably good! Do you have plans to interview physicist Carlo Rovelli?
Also get Benedict Cumberbatch to narrate for him
Carlo Rovelli PLEASE
Whoa, such a great interview! The questions, the follow-up discussions, the production value, everything is on point. All the compliments to you and thank you for making this stuff :)
Lex, you are the man! Thank you for providing such insightful conversations. Your questions are always on point. You’re a true inspiration, cheers!
Thank you for creating your channel and opening up a discussion about ethics, simulation hypothesis, consciousness and AI
This was one of my favorites. Lex is doing a great job finding interesting new guests.
Wow. One great guest after another. Great conversation, Lex. Thanks!
We need David back. I love listening to him. 👍
Great listen, I totally forgot the time on this and flowed right through this. :) Thanks as always, Lex (and guests)!
David Chalmers in my top 10 favorite humans of all times
Love this podcast. It isn't candified whatsoever. Love the dry and natural format, the most enthralling guests, and Lex is a great host. Thank you!
Love how you take your time to put your mind in the state that you think their mind is in. And then take the opposite view even tho it may not be what you think but you use it yon ask questions a skeptic or non believer would ask just to get more insightful or in depth answers. You are a master at getting down to first principals regardless of how hard it may be to do. Thank you sir. I am always impressed. Half the time I have no idea what it being talked about or if it even makes sense but at least you can get them to explain in terms some of us with low intelligence can try to wrap our brains around.
Lex - I love the breadth of topics covered in the AI series coupled with your ability to engage both technically and philosophically. Keep em coming!
It's turtles all the way down. Literally my favorite expression 😂
@Strawchild I think it's an ancient Greek thing where one turtle was holding the world up and when asked who was holding the turtle up the response was another turtle!
@Strawchild "Turtles all the way down" is an expression of the problem of infinite regress. It's in reference to "The World Turtle" (also referred to as the Cosmic Turtle or the World-bearing Turtle) a mytheme of a giant turtle (or tortoise) supporting or containing the world. The mytheme, which is similar to that of the World Elephant and the Hindu World Serpent (not to be confused with the Norse World Serpent), occurs in Hindu mythology, Chinese mythology and the mythologies of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. The "World-Tortoise" mytheme was discussed comparatively by Edward Burnett Tylor. (see wikipedia for general background info)
David is an incredible genius. His ideas are absolutely fascinating.
I love Dave, he's always so cheerful and upbeat.
"We are the custodians of life's meaning."
-Carl Sagan
My Movers Inc Moving your argument is written quite poorly.
Sagan is a parallel custodian in the universe in which he now exists that is not this one where he no longer enjoys physical existence.
except trump
@@TRLgoodvibesdotcom all words are human words
Lex is doing a terrific job I must say. The guests are super duper.
Excellent. I got liked David even more than before. Lex is very nice and bright as well. And the conversation is just brilliant! Thank you, men!
Кайф, было очень интересно послушать Чалмерса. Его взгляды на фундаментальную теорию сознания любопытны, хотя и оставляют много вопросов.
Неожиданно найти такой контент на англоязычном ютубе, канал - настоящая находка!
You just quoted Alan Watts while interviewing David Chalmers. These interviews are curing my depression.
Please have Nicholas Nassim Taleb on your show, thanks for sharing these conversations with us. Good work, as always.
Please. I've expected him to be on JRE or The Portal by now
@@TRLgoodvibesdotcom One good way to increase readership of said books is to *talk* about their contents in interviews. Also, I'm sure Lex's audience isn't so "lay" as to not understand _any_ probability theory at all. So yeah, I think Taleb should give an interview in this venue.
Really, really enjoying going through these podcasts. Thanks brotha 🤟
Lex, many thanks for the awesome podcast and the great selection of guests. I'd love to see a conversation between you and Mr. Thomas Sowell, Naval Ravikant and Peter Thiel. Fingers crossed some of them might come true. Take care and seize the day!
Love your questioning lex and so glad I’ve found your podcast. Love your open mind. Look forward to more. How about Don Hoffman. Or Ekhart Tolle. Love from nz
SO GOOD! Love David Chalmers.
This was a great podcast. It is admirable how this guy can understand so clearly from multiple perspectives. That is something I definitely wish to master one day
Everyone has already spoken all your praises and I second and third them all. Bravo Lex to you and all your good works!
Awesome, excellent discussion on consciousness. I love it, thanks!
So glad he grew his hair back. Aids his clarity of thought, I feel.
Lex, thanks for bringing this inmensurable amount of knowledge to us in such a calm, educated and constructive way.
Absolutely brilliant work Lex. Tip of the hat to you in your work theses days. Please keep'em coming.
Lex your show is amazing. Keep it up man!
I would love to listen to a conversation between you and Nick Bostrøm. I deeply enjoy listening to your work!
This is such a good interview, so many gems. Lex is on his A-game ⭐️
Lex, your guest list is impressive. Also, thanks so much for bringing Dave for this discussion.
Holy crap you got Chalmers!? Thank you, he absolutely deserves the attention I hope he got from this podcast!
Lex, thank you so much for all your amazing effort to bring humanity a step forward.
DUDE LEX! I think I have watched damn near every podcast episode you've had thus far, and by and large this was my favorite episode bar none! Great work! I always appreciate how you ask the hardest questions that so many people don't have the capacity to even understand the response, let alone comprehend the question itself. Joe Rogan may have critisized tyour way of doing this but I think it always comes off as totally honest and pure of intent. Thanks Lex!
I jumped on this interview when just uploaded, like when I was a kid, I saw a just released new edition of Tintin at the book store and start jumping "I must read this".
What is up with these awesome guests!! Great job Lex! 2020 here we go!
2023 here we go...
Thanks for the awesome interview Lex!!! Great questions. And David Chalmers. Man he is such an inspiration. Love this dude! Great communicator, extremely sharp, and the most down to earth in ever interview! Thanks for your existence David!
David and Lex Awesome Show, Great Job!
Awesome! Thanks 👌
David Chalmers, my man
Lex Fridman has the best interviews, Hands down.
This whole conversation was like a game of chess of ideas.
Myself being a big fan of the game, I can see how your mind work in that same way, the way you lead the conversation.
Super cool discussion! Loved it, like always ❤ keep it up!
This is going to be my favorite one so far, and I’m only 7 minutes in
@@eliyahfeld i was here after 3mins lol .
Dude, you are the shit. I just want to say I listen to two podcast, Joe Rogan's and yours. Keep up the great work!
One of the most remarkable discussions on the nature of consciousness and deep philosophical insights. I'm more puzzled than before.
I almost gave up on "nothing to watch". Thanks!
It astounds me that we are only thoroughly defining and asking these types of questions so precisely only at this point in history.
Wrong.
@@mattbrown292 I was referring to formally asking these questions in an exact way, obviously humans have asked basic philosophical questions about consciousness since we evolved reasonable abstract abilities
@@mattbrown292 I have yet to see anything exactly like the hard problem of consciousness as defined by Chalmers as done by any other philosopher or philosophy and I think that is pretty surprising more people have not seen this as important to study
You are now my favorite, thank you for the intellectual stimulation (didn't realize how "dumbed down" the internet has become)!!!
I just met David Chalmers and he’s a super sharp, friendly, approachable guy. And his voice is truly superb… just talking normally, he sounds like he’s on the most expensive tube mic.
I believe the game you're looking for is Roy, from Rick and Morty
That episode got me good
Dear Mr Fridman and Mr Chalmers, I viewed the David Chalmers interview and already left a comment: but now; exceptionally, I’d like to add one more idea I have on consciousness. After the videocast, I had an additional idea on what consciousness is and I found it in the cell. In a human cell for example there is a membrane which holds the little factory together. Consciousness is literally a membrane that allows the thinking process to be contained, holding all the pieces in place so that it has a handle on the whole mind. In a cell, if one substance is needed on the other side of the cell, it will build an overpass to send the material. When the material has been successfully delivered the overpass dissolves away. Consciousness allows the mind to send and receive and evaluate all kinds of thoughts to the various parts of the brain. It’s a 'membrane' that reigns it all in so that we, as humans, get the big picture every time something needs our attention. It’s a theory.
This is just brilliant,two interesting and intelligent human beings discussing a fascinating hypothesis ,thank you to whoever gave us you tube .
Awesome podcaster Lex. You know the right questions to ask, summise it for us and can keep up with these superb thinkers you have on. Keep up the good work 💪🤙
Hi! Could you interview Jesse Prinz and Peter Carruthers?
Two chickens were having a conversation in the chicken coop. "I wonder if this is the real world or a simulation." The second chicken replied, "That question has been eating at me too!"
I am so impressed by your Podcast, Lex!
Thank you for this Lex and David!
Lex, I love your lack of pretension and taste in guests, keep it up!
When I dream at night and find myself in a strange world nothing like my own, I don't really question my surrounding, my motives and why I got there. I think that would be the closest that we can get to a split consciousness. Maybe in the future, we will have the capability to tap into that stream or mode of consciousness.
Do you mean like Dissociative Identity Disorder? Bernardo Kastrup has some interesting views on that subject. That somehow we can split our consciousness and experience different realities, that studying people with DID can give a hint as to the nature of consciousness. I wonder what views David Chalmers might have?
Seems to me, know one is sure of anything.
@@mark1952able I haven't listened to the whole interview yet but I get that sense too(Coming from the reality of soul identity).
Ah, this podcast is so a refresher.
Parts remind me of my first encounter with "Second Life from Linden Lab".
Lex is extremely impressive. I'm thankful to find this channel and yes please get Donald Hoffman next
you should get bernardo kastrup on your podcast
Didn't Leonard Susskind claim a 3d space can be represented in 2d (on boundary)? That would make simulation a lot less costly...
Maybe a 3D space and a 4d space can interface on a 2d boundary...(3-------4). With a point of interaction sitting both inside and outside the Bi-Universe, a zero-point if you will.
Yes, all of the data would be available. I think there's a way to go quite a many more dimensions than 3d, although I don't understand the math.
Holographic universe
This is my new drug.. love the way you are able to communicate so effectively.
One of the best Interviews ive seen so far Lex .
Wow! Chalmers!!!!!!
Lex "I have a deep connection with robots" Fridman
Thank U, Lex Friedman.U r one of the best, if not the best interviewers, as well as a highly interesting, good and positive human being. U should become a teacher, and if so, I would become a pupil again.
I love putting these on to fall asleep to every night once I'm too tired to pay attention anymore I pause and pick back up the next day
Need Tom Campbell on the show PLEASE!
Pleeeease
Great interviews. Just one thing: "phenomena" is plural. The singular form is "phenomenon". ;)
most enjoyable interview thus far
"What is consciousness?" "Subjective experience. What it feels like from the inside to be a human being or any other conscious being". Beautiful definition!
According to Donald Hoffman we already wearing a VR helmet.
So you advise to listen to this podcast? I'm aware of Hoffman's idea of consciousness.
@@Sekir80 wouldn’t hurt , I guess 😀
@@mauricemeijers7956 okay then! :-)
Lex, make interview with Bernardo Kastrup! You will get a brand new perspective on consciousness.
Very fun conversation!! Thanks for this!
Love this still the second time around