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Working Remotely vs at the Office: Informal Thoughts
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2024
- Some informal thoughts on working remotely versus at the office. What are your thoughts on this issue?
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Mike, good stuff as always. However, I'm not sure I'd agree with all of your points. I do want to list some thoughts I had and share an anecdote:
1. Groupthink and (generally speaking) the marginalization of new ideas seems to be less of an issue over Zoom and WFH overall. In large meetings people tend to talk over everyone, while zoom people tend to let others finish before joining in. Collaboration isn't done at the water cooler by "clicks", but rather online chats or zoom where personal relationships and like thinkers have less of an impact. Additionally, in general terms, communication is more efficient remotely - meetings are shorter, check-ins faster, and more preparation is done before the meeting rather than in it. I understand this seems counter intuitive. (i haven't even touched on impromptu desk meetings, the bane of any software developer)
2. Worker productivity is at an all time high. Granted this is due to a multitude of factors, but one of which is definitely flexible working hours and the ability to work from home.
3. Several studies indicate that people who work from home actually work more hours total then do people who work in the office full time. I can speak for this myself. (citations can be provided)
4. A happy worker is a better worker.
5. I think the concept of "facetime" is very dated, and has since been replaced by more goal oriented objectives. It also puts more accountability and responsibility on the employee to reach their goals, and gives them more control to do so. Rather than "just show up", I'll look over your shoulder to make sure you "do it my way". Office facetime doesn't equal productivity, effort or value.
Reminds me of a story in my last full time position. There was an employee who worked next to me who was approximately early Gen X age, and was very old school as far as working hours. He went great lengths to be the first one in and worked until close, sometimes arriving at 6:30 am and leaving pretty late. He'd let you know it too, often remarking on slack on how he had to turn on the lights when he came in or how he had to clean the coffee maker. He never called in sick, and always attended meetings (never really participated in them though).
When Covid hit we all moved to a WFH schedule, and we rarely heard from him. He was eventually let go in mid 2020, and never finished the project he was hired to do after working there for nearly 3 years.
I could go on here, but it's dinner and I cooked a mean chicken tikka masala, something I could not do on a Monday if I had to endure a one hour commute.
All good and I appreciate your push back.
1. Never thought of that, but can totally see how Zoom can neuter meeting groupthink of a certain kind. Would be interesting to look into if a different kind of groupthink replaces it. Don't have anything in mind, but like weeds, that kind of stuff always finds a way in, lol. And, I totally agree that folks need to prep before a meeting. That said, I've been in my fair share of Zooms where people are just faking it. Human nature.
2. I don't have any data on this (because I haven't looked) but can see how this could easily be the case
3. I know this one first hand. I've been working from home for over six years now, and did the same back in the late 90s/early 2000s. I work always because I'm always at work.
4. No argument there
5. Call me old. Whatever. I still think (no data, just have a hunch) that there is a significant value to working in person in certain circumstances. The fact is, most work probably doesn't fall in this category and I have no problem admitting that. Even so, there is something magical that happens when people come together to solve problems.
Sounds like your Gen X'er was a slug that should have been let go a long time ago. There are just crappy employees that would rather suck up and look good than do good work. This is more of a human problem than a work location problem. Someone should have held him accountable and honestly whoever didn't should be held accountable, lol.
Hope your dinner was superb. ;)
1. Working from home is allowing to have time with their families that they never had before.
2. Working from home allows for more flexibility for the worker in terms of time saved on a daily basis.
3. Maybe your workplace is crazy toxic where sexual harassment or bullying in general was common.
4. Many companies want to bring people back to the office purely to avoid making a lot of managerial positions redundant, and they are scared.
5. Many companies have hard investments in real estate and buildings which are now sitting empty, if everybody haul their bodies back to the office the asset price of commercial real estate could collapse.
6. Forcing people back to the office for high performing people working at home is pointless and quite possibly damaging to the company, as you will have an angry employee whose work will suffer and will likely will work elsewhere.
7. The people who tend to want to go back to the office tend to be people with low technology comprehension, the conversion to working from home for many Millennials was easy, but insanely difficult for the older generation.
8. When it comes to creating wealth for the company and working at home not being possible... in my case.. Software Developer so I know your incorrect. I constantly am making feature sets for software that I know are billed out 20X my salary.
9. The company for years have cycled through people constantly, they would fire and hire people constantly. They would fire you without notice and chop off all your accounts, lock your laptop, grab your belongings so you can't do supposed damage. Benefits were always getting cut, and companies are not willing to pay a livable wage to the younger generation while they listen to soap boxing boomers about back in the day.
I apologize, but this came across like every single older employee management meeting that I have attended, and it always comes from people with the absolute peak of privilege. Companies think they can buy your body and soul, and take you away from family and friends for a pittance. Don't get frustrated when the younger generation doesn't fall for the same thing you may have, they can longer afford the core assets you have and could afford in your youth with the average wages that are available in most industries.
1. I agree
2. Agree, again
3. Okay. Probably should try to deal with the issues, but I get it
4. Yeah, agree. Companies need to trim the dead wood and are never really good at that. A lot of dead wood lives in middle management
5. This is an interesting one. I think you're right, but the people in charge of the real estate are not the ones who dictate where people work. I can easily see a CFO saying, "Let's dump some office space! It will be good for our balance sheet, etc." I just don't see the money people in a corp keeping real estate just because. And, the smart ones will dump their space before the collapse, so not sure you've got a good point here. Although, yes, real estate is an issue that has yet to be addressed, imo
6. I think truly higher-performing people want to have some interaction and would welcome some time at the office. Unless, like I said in my video, they are simply transactional people or in transactional roles. Then they don't really matter to the core of the business. So, if you're a database manager, yeah, work from home. Who cares? If you're a product manager, then you probably need to interact on a more face-to-face level to get good work done.
7. I am not sure I agree with this. Seems more like a broad generalization. Look, I make them all the time, but I can't really respond to this because it just sounds like what you think. I've yet to run into older people that have struggled with working from home. I have, however, seen young Gen Y struggle because they can't manage young kids, bosses, spouses, and their home office all at once. BTW, not saying it's the Millennials that are struggling, just that it's hard to make such a general assertion
8. Makes sense. So you're a dev. Cool. What about other wealth-creation roles? I get that it works for you. I'm similar in that I'm a consultant. I do transformational work. I can do a lot of it remotely, but I also work in person with clients based on need. That said, I can think of a number of roles that need some interaction. You make your living on a keyboard and screen. Not all wealth is made that way. Would you agree?
9. I'm not here to defend how some companies behave. So, won't argue this other than to say, not all companies are the same. Lot's of crappy companies out there but at the same time there are a lot of great one's too.
Too bad all you hear is an old guy complaining. That wasn't my point. I was sharing some thoughts for consideration, not attacking working from home. Regarding being at the peak of privilege, all I can say is your underlying assumptions and theories will absolutely create what it is that you think you're observing. You see me and think you comprehend what you see. You likely don't. I'm not at all frustrated. It's just interesting to me and I think the dynamics bear considering and conversing about. I haven't fallen for anything, really. I'm just talking about what's happening around us and am at the same time asking some questions. Maybe your reaction to me has more to do with you and what you feel than what I actually said. Maybe.
@@MikeGastin I think we generally agree more than we disagree, but as you outlined there is a bit a disconnect between the groups of people with generalizations. I often have had a hard time meeting in the middle with middle in management, I am not all that young, but not all that old, but when I see the younger generation struggle, I get a lot of their frustrations. There is value in being connected and seeing people face to face, but often it is not presented in a way that is completely appreciated. Also certainly I can appreciate that not all roles can be done at home completely and it is more of a rarity than anything. On a side note when you start working for a company large enough it quickly turns into HR, and Ethics departments not as a friend, but as a group working against employees and trying to keep lawsuits internal, sexual harassment and bullying is a lot cheaper to deal with internally rather than eating a lawsuit and swallowing the PR that comes with it. When talking about this though you might catch some side eyes from the upcoming generations. I appreciate the insight and probably should not have watched this pretty much after a company wide meeting about this. Cheers!
No worries at all. I totally am a product of my generation and even though I've had some serious hardships, I'm quite blessed-undeservedly so. I think Gen Y gets a bum rap. There are a lot of very hard-working people in that segment. And, I am totally on board when it comes to criticizing the BS that large corps and their management are capable of producing. A lot of what's wrong with our society can be laid at the feet of these big companies. That said, I know some amazing privately owned companies that as so good to their people, their community, and their customers.
I'm grateful for your comments and even that you took the time to push back. I don't mind a good argument, but even so, you've brought up a lot of good issues. I just hate getting lumped in as "not getting it" just because I've got a white beard. 😂 Glad you took the time and you actually made me think this through more. I want to better understand what others are going though, if just to be a better person and even to maybe help.
I am against all the crazy policies and the previous "new normal" narrative. However, having been working remotely for a few years, it is indeed more efficient. Despite having to travel for meetings every now and then, it is much better than a daily commute. As for the transactional aspect it depends. Most freelancing can be transactional yes, but when it is about managing transformational project it is probably similar to working in the office with a high engagment level.
I'm really glad I posted this video as I've gotten some good perspectives. Thanks!
Appreciate your thoughts. I too value in-person collaboration, enjoy remote work now for many of the stated reasons in comments, and do think there is something fantastic about flexible workplace policies where you can do both. Sounds like you agree, just emphasizing the value of in-person transformational as a requirement in the mix? I would argue that remote can facilitate both transactional and transformational work, it does not negate entirely the latter. Simply, transformational work has it's own spectrum of work within. Example:
- A developer working on adding new functionality to an important feature linked directly to increased revenue should be able to work however they'd like, ideally with as few context switches as possible. Remote works great here and I'd consider the work transformational.
- Same developer collaborating with team and customer around the architecture or acceptance criteria of a solution needed by an important feature linked directly to increased business value could be both remote or in-person. In-person often is phenomenal if financially and logistically possible, but remote can substitute (or be default) with a distributed workforce beyond single timezone. Whether in-person or remote, I'd also consider the work transformational.
Some good case studies can be found in Tech for all-remote companies, GitLab being a very well documented example: about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/guide/. I borrow a lot from them and their open handbook because I believe it is well written, contains interesting references, and has shown positive results in implementation. I encourage you to read it and add to your Zettle! Note, they do advocate for in-person social gatherings, so even all-remote typically means some cultural investment for in-person. Just a matter of how frequent it's economically viable.
Last thought, instead of focusing remote vs in-office, or transformational vs transactional, I try to focus on balance of synchronous vs asynchronous work in all locations. Good reading in the above handbook about the concept.
Thanks, John-Paul! Excellent resource. And, yes, I am all for flexibility. This vid was more of an impromptu convo on the situation, but by no means is meant as a hard argument. And, one great thing about remote is it gives companies access to better talent by opening up geography. There are so many facets to this new situation. That said, I think my underlying *feeling* is that we need local interaction and that teams that do engage located together, even if just time to time, are going to do better than those where everyone is just remote. I'm having lots of conversations with people who just want to work from their bedroom and laptop with no engagement and I think that's not good for anyone; company or employee.
I'm a 100% remote consultant in TECH, I would quit if I was ask to come into office. Some people are just more productive when not around the chit chatting and office politics.
You would quit if you had to interact with other humans from time to time? To each his own.
@@MikeGastin i interact with coworkers and clients remotely everyday as an Principal Architect. The older I get the more i understand that there’s more to life than your job. Companies will replace you in a snap if you were to die. Time with family, friends and love ones are way more valuable.
I’m with you 100% on that. And I hope my video isn’t suggesting work is everything. My point (if I remember correctly) is that it’s hard to do transformational work without being in person; that, ignoring the downsides of an office, there is a lot of value working directly with other people. All the best.
It is not just one way, because we are here and we can comment. :)
Nothing can replace some human interactions like a hug or a handshake, thanks God. But they demand some effort, even if sometimes minimum (but not so minimum nowadays when it demands time, which is more and more what we don't want to give).
That said, I think there could some compromise somewhere in some of the issues. Offices shouldn't be ugly for example even if they won't be home, there shouldn't be 60 hours spent on the office, etc. Working from home can be ugly to, there's sometimes a lot of time spent in unmeaningful remote meetings and also sometimes time becomes hard to manage, etc.
So, there are good things about remote working and good things about working in person. Both in a good might be the best to aim to.
When in doubt though, I would say in person work is usually the best, with greatest accomplishments.
Yes! I probably wasn't clear about this in my vid, but I agree: compromise. Some time in the office and some time working from home. And, we need to address the problems that a lot of companies have let go without fixing: bad managers, needless meetings, etc.
I'm gen x Also and i think i don't need to go to the Office too. I'm more productive at home than at the Office.
I've been working from home for over six years now and agree. Of course, I do believe there are times when working face to face is better. What kind of work do you do?
@@MikeGastin software developer, until march 2020, i was working from home two days a week, I choose the current full work from home always.
Btw, try to upload on Odysee too. It can be automated to have your videos synced their automatically.
Have been there for a while, bro.
Remote work > Office hands down lol, screw the traffic, and no you do get out, you have the time now to do it because you aren’t stuck in a building all day and you can have more meaningful interactions with people when you are out on your off time from work 😂 you can literally work efficiently and faster as well. 7:23 I mean you can be transformational lol, you just have to be aware of both things.
It's called a monologue or a speech. It's not a conversation.
Yeah, but see? You commented and now I'm commenting back. Sure, it's not an in-person conversation, but it's also not a true monologue, either. And, I believe I admitted that it's not a true convo due to the fact that video is one way. But, thanks for your comment.
@@MikeGastin This is a comment. Not the video. I still believe you should call it a monologue or a speech. We are having a correspondence in the comment section, not in the video.
I don't want to make this an important topic. The main reason to watch this video is what you said there. I mostly agree with you which is more important than the semantics.
@@NikolaGluvakov Haha. It's all good. I don't script these vids. I turn on the camera and talk. That means sometimes I am not precise and I don't apologize for that because it is what it is. Not sure if you make videos or not, but one thing is you try to talk to the camera as if you're talking to/with friends. So, for the creator, it can feel like a conversation because that's the mindset you try to put yourself in. I am glad you're able to get past the semantics to hear what I was actually saying. All the best. ;)