Food-Safe 3D Printing | State of the Industry 2024 | 3D Printers in Ukraine | 3D Printing Podcast
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
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0:00 Intro
1:00 State of the 3D Printing Industry
10:53 China’s Dominance of Consumer Market
14:32 3D Printers Being Sent to Ukraine
16:41 China Behind in Additive Manufacturing
20:02 Software Updates
20:55 Tangled Update
22:11 Testing Lab Update
25:35 General Company Updates
26:58 Food Safe 3D Printing
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Dear god please fix the wobbly table, or at least try not to lean on it. This is awful to listen to.
Or run it through DaVinci Resolve's dialogue isolator. Heck, they could send it to me and could have it back in about 20 minutes.
It is driving me crazy also
Will send a beer coaster to put it under the table. On my own cost if i have to.
thanks for the video, your mic stand was wobbling on the table or something
Studied food safety of plastic polymers when designing packaging.
Agree, Most polymers are/ can be food safe BUT are not inert.
It means most will migrate in the food, usually due to temperature, basicness or acidness of the food.
The quantity make the poison so most of the time it should be fine.
But It’s been linked to a multitude of health issues and we currently find more and more examples of plastic bottle and tray that were deemed food safe but are in fact way above limits.
Polymers used in food are:
Pet: for bottles
Pp: for trays
Pla: liner in cardboards trays
Just curious. From your experience what is okay to use and what would you recommend against:
-plastic microwave safe containers
-paper coffee cups
-PET bottles
-plastic packaged food that has been left sitting in the sun/car
@@awkwardsaxon9418 again if you trust norms and food /packaging producing companies (like nestle) most of them should be fine and (just) bellow limits.
It’s not always possible but I would stick to inerts materials when I can like a glass container or a ceramic cup.
Some of the early consumer 3D printing companies tried too hard to lock down their ecosystems and trap their customers in a sunk cost fallacy scheme. That's what turned me off MakerBot back in the day; they started to lock down their parts and changed spool designs to lock people into a high-profit consumables scheme. I am glad companies like Prusa and Creality disrupted their business with more open ecosystems. Hopefully, Bambu follows suit and doesn't try to lock down their machines where you can only make their printers work with their own filaments and first-party parts. I manage a 3D printing lab, and I am actively moving away from locked ecosystems in both hardware and software. I would love to opt for a local American product with good support and distribution, but not at the cost of being trapped in a locked-down product, begging them for features and parts.
Yeah! Where are the SlantBox kits at?
A note on Prusa: They are saying they're selling more machines than ever before. Bambu and Creality are definitely most of the consumer market, but I think that it's still a situation of "the entire pie is growing." Definitely makes a lot of sense the consumer machines are eating up the lower end of the industrial market too, as the most recent consumer machines are quite capable.
3D printers never been so much "it works out of the box", Im not surprised that all companies break their sales records in 2023.
Prusa have been well and truly left behind. They have a decently reliable bed slinger, but Bambu made a better one for 1/3rd the price.. Even if it's 3 times less reliable (it is not), it still makes sense to get them since they're faster.. Also, bed slingers are just old tech and Prusas CoreXY offering is janky bullshit with poor reliability. Prusas main selling point (no outdated) is reliability, so them shedding that with their rushed CoreXY offering, has been a big mistake. If Bambu creates some print farm software, Prusa are dead.
@@georgestone8099 I bought the Mk4 because it's reliable, well supported, more open, and doesn't hide log files from the user. Also Bambu was new when I bought it and I wasn't sure how they'd turn out as a business.
Also - bed slingers aren't as old as you think they are. Darwin, the printer that caught a lot of attention in the early days of 3D printing and started the RepRap movement, was not a bed slinger. Bambu just popularized the idea that bed slingers were dumb, because when they first started Bambu, part of their core philosophy was "no more bed slingers."
To their credit - CoreXY had its advantages, as a stationary build plate means tall objects can remain relatively stable, and the print head can often be made lighter than the bed.
That said - I think Bambu's public disdain for bed slingers, more than anything, is what drove the idea that bed slingers are old / outdated.
Which ended up being some corporate marketing nonsense, because guess what? They eventually made bed slingers. Their claim of "no more bed slingers" rings hollow now, and it does make me trust Bambu a bit less because I can't rely on them to remain faithful to their word.
It's also interesting that Prusa is actually doing some really neat stuff with color printing, especially when it comes to speed and minimizing waste. I dare say Bambu is falling a bit behind.
You see - the XL is a tool changer, and with a bit of tuning some users have completely gotten rid of the purge/prime normally associated with color printing. No tower, no poop.
The MMU3 is also quite fast and less wasteful than the AMS & AMS Lite. Still needs a tower, but no need for poop. It just pulls one color out and pushes the next color in.
It will be interesting to see what Prusa does in the future. The professional side of Prusa has actually developed a CoreXY that is closer in size to the Mk4 that is being used in their Prusa Pro AFS, and I'm hoping that means they are working on a smaller Core XY.
Hopefully they can get the price of their printers down a bit as well as they start to use the Prusa Pro AFS in their own print farm. Prusa is a bit overdue for some automation.
Creality -> ZERO Customer support, but the machines itself are surprisingly solid and have always been. They have pushed 3d printing really a lot at this price bracket.
Sovol is a rising star tho, really a surpriser
conversely, creality in china has really good customer support
I'll have to google translate my support tickets into mandarin to get a response, thanks for the idea@@ToviDing
Sovol is owned by creality.
I definitely would not describe my new Creality printer as solid.
slant3d, have you fully switched from fusion to shapr? and if so, why?
I'm currently starting to learn cad for 3d design and I was sure fusion is the goto for 3d printing
The main problem that I have with 3d printing of parts that are in contact with food is that there aren't filaments that I can print that are dishwasher safe. They warp or shrink. So I have to hand wash them. What I've used them for is lids for Pyrex containers, where the lid is in the refrigerator and is not indirect, substantial contact with the left overs. So, I'm not worried about food-safety. I'm just annoyed with having something that I have to treat special. OTOH, it is really annoying that you can you can buy yogurt in containers where the lids last for years but the Pyrex containers that last for decades have lids that fail after a year. Initially, I thought this was because I was using the lids to cover the food when reheating in the microwave. But even after I stopped doing that, the lids still quickly failed.
Audible thanks you kindly.
On food safety, what about pigments and other additives mixed in with the PLA? I think that's a big unknown that ruins the otherwise manageable risk for food use.
Excellent question, CNC kitchen talked how even the colors (therefore additives used to create the colors) influence strength of the filament
Nothing...you can eat a complete 1kg spool and nothing will happen
One of the things that contributed to manufacturer's exiting the 3d printing consumer market is what Brooks pointed out as he closed up the PrinterBot company. Most of the cost he was passing on to the customers was support, whether that support was for helping with build of kits, or ongoing support of fully built printers, it ended up being about the same amount. He realized that since that portion was effectively being dropped by the Chinese manufacturer's, and he wasn't going to be able to provide support for those devices as either a subscription service, or as a pass through of those company's products, there was no real way that he could compete against the price discrepancy.
As for foodsafety ins't the concern more the additives and specifically colors like Cobalt blue or chromium oxide green when SHOULD NOT be ingested. Several industrial colorants are metal based and can leach due to the ultra small particle size (often sub micron)
Good points on (50 shades of) food safety :)
PLA is used in agriculture and for containers and utensils in direct contact with food.
Lead - compared to era of leaded gasoline? That lead was everywhere (some may still exist in the ground around us), including food, especially grown close to roads.
Bacteria & mold - if printed part is hard to clean and it is used for moist material, use it once and trash it. Print another when needed.
Please fix the wall just below the stack of books in the background. I've been looking at it for a year.
I feel like you didn't address, or maybe aren't aware of, why 3d printed parts shouldn't be used for food contact. It has nothing to do with lead or materials. It's because of the microscopic troughs between the layer lines that harbor bacteria that are nearly impossible to clean away.
Yes. It has to be sealed to get a smooth surface that is washable. There is high temperature foodsafe epoxy resin I have played around with a bit but haven't gotten it right yet
Precisely.
For some uses (like custom cookie cutters) the parts are so cheap and fast that you could just print new ones. Also, if it only ever comes into contact with dry food (like a scoop for rice) I don’t see a problem.
For other things, coating the part is probably the easiest solution. There just isn’t a lot of good information out there on this topic, and most products aren’t going to make any “food safe” claims so it’s hard to know what to use. I’d like to see something easy to use (maybe a spray can) that’s actually certified properly.
Yes. It is their porosity and the permanent inclusion of food particles to cause microbiological issues later.....that can be very unpleasant to the human condition.
Created for water transport several obscure fittings with PP and it just works..
Can someone fix that table which's tiggleing within a microphone all the time? It makes me crazy you know and I'm sure that not only me who heares that.
But video's good, as those always are.
My only concern with food safe printing is the reverse....microplastics from the utensil being bit on/rubbed up against another material, etc.
Thanks for dropping that Context World article. Interesting stuff.
WRT lead, opinions are great, but one could just test it with a $1 swab. The simple thing all the complainers fail to do.
"wash stuff and don't just lick a puddle of fish blood off of a cutting board, you're fine" I need this as a sign in my kitchen. 😂
I'll model it NOW
Modeling it NOW
Please do make that video on food safety! I have an accessory that interacts with boiling water (making PLA unviable) and I'm curious about your thoughts. Also for "customer piece of mind" I know I might want to choose "more safe" materials, even though in practice it might not make any difference.
I really liked the reference to additive insight, never heard of them and the first video I watched was informative, Thanks for the suggestion.
Whats interesting about the fda list is whats not on it anything UV cured is essentially off limits. Ive had Abs and uv cured resins biocompatibility tested and sterilisation tested for use in neurosurgery trials but cant put the same optical device into an animal carcass.
The insights on 3d production machinery, consumer and industrial was interesting. It would be fascinating to touch on 3d production consumables (filament, metal powers, etc), as to where they're sourced, and where they are used in production manufacturing. This should provide an idea of how much the equipment is being used, and where is used globally.
Breaking food safety down into categories may be helpful ... dry vs. wet; acceptable temperature ranges and problem areas (microwave, or dish washer).
Regarding lead, many pipes still have lead joints, or lead pipes. High replacement cost has delayed upgrades by decades in some cases.
Can you make a video if you have not already about designing to save on filament?
Thank you for the clarity on food-safe applications ^-^
I clicked this video because I thought it was Helldivers 2 related due to the logo looking like a "Common Sample" lol. I think I might have a problem.
need to print a tpu mat of something to stop the wobble of the mic thats causing the thud thumping over and over as the table shakes
Most printers sold are from big industrial guys- wrong conclusion. They have 50% of the REVENUE, but since they cost more per unit it doesn't mean more are sold. The sales by Bambu Lab and Creality caused the other companies to try and release competitors. But everyone fell short as they had firmware issues, print quality issues at high speed, etc. If someone can come out with a solid competitor, it will be interesting to see what happens in that market (right now Phrozen's Arco is the next attempt to compete in that niche in both price and performance. Releases in July)
The Bambu Lab nubers are also skewed because they only had one full quarter of sales in 2022 and those were the X1C at $1200 per unit. 2023 brought the P1P, P1S, A1 and A1 mini. The A1 in the last quarter. So what would be interesting to see is 4th quarter 2023 sales vs 4th quarter 2022 sales.
Wood has anti microbial enzymes, so not a good counter example.
Could you do, or have you done, a video explaining the meaning of the mechanical properties listed for filaments. Something aimed at the technically-minded hobbyist, not necessarily the professional.
With food safe having a general sentiment of fear and misunderstanding, do you think that would make it a target as an un/undertapped market for creators to explore? Or is the negative sentiment too strong to allow new growth?
Matt Thomas did a good scientific peer reviewed paper on this, and pla is food safe as it can be cleaned 100% with common cleaning product, they can reach everywhere that bacteria can, despite pores and all.
Are there antimicrobial (microbe resistant) filaments?
Yep
@slant3d this is exactly what I needed! Just a clear answer to a clear question!
Polypropylene, PLA and PET id say would be the easiest food safe to print without moving to the super plastic grades. just make sure to use only a very specific nozzle for those plastics and to clean out your extruder prior to prevent any cross contamination.
I read somewhere that due to how PETG melts, it is less pourous than PLA, so I have predominantly printed food and drink items out of PETG. No clue if there is any truth to it but it sounded plausible so I just went with it.
I wish there was much variety in PETG colors as there is in PLA. I wouldn't print anything else if there was.
I've been following 3D printing since 2012-2013, but I bought my first bamboo labs printer, as its the first printer I felt comfortable with investing in. It hit so many marks for me I saw no point in putting it of anymore.
careful with the camera though. Bambu famously employed dji engineers for example czcams.com/video/SKhPpD8FFpw/video.html
I enjoy getting an expert opinion on the news, especially with the clear delineation between the news and the commentary! I'd appreciate if it was a little more scripted to reduce the uncertainty inherent with figuring it out as you go.
nervous leg syndrom?
Personally I see a lot of people that switched from other brands to Bambu, so I guess there is a big portion of people that are not "new" to the hobby. But on the other side they're the first consumer grade printers that I would recommend to people who don't want to dive too deep into tinkering a lot with the machine. What all seem to have in common - they print a lot more with their Bambu printers. I had an Anycubic before which was working "fine", but the user experience is a whole different level with the Bambu. During the last quarter I've probably printed 4-5x more filament than with my Anycubic in five years. I think who will benefit from the rise of the Bambu printers are especially the filament manufacturers.
It's crazy how quickly even big brands like Sunlu / Jayo are sold out these days once they list new batches of filament. Sometimes it takes just hours and their whole color range is out of stock again.
Same for Bambu and others. I'm wondering if the unexpected growth and logistics are the limitation or the production itself. I guess the latter, since logistics are easier to scale,
Great informations!
I make a lot of 3D printed, nerdy, coffee things that only come into contact with beans or dry coffee grounds. Understandably, the question of how to make it food-safe etc. comes up very often. At the moment, I usually write half a novel with arguments very similar to yours, so I'm already looking forward to when there might be an extra video here :D.
Thank you!
I still think 3D printed plastic is not food safe because of the surface of the parts. The surface is not durable and can easily chip off and mix with your food.
I sold my ultimaker 3S and brought a bambu X1 carbon. And love it so much despite being a 3D Printer user way back from Ultimaker 2.
The Bambu X1C is a 3D printer for someone who likes making things with it rather than trying to improve it or constantly repairing it. I LOVE mine. LOVE it.
Lol yeah definitely
On this food safety kick, what can be dishwasher safe? I suspect PLA will likely deform, so will PETG.
I've tried PLA, PETG, and TPU. None worked as being top rack safe. They shrank, with the PLA and PETG deforming.
I've run PET parts through the dishwasher. HTPET from fusion filaments.
Any reason why Ukraine need 1m 3D printers instead of 1m stones 🤔
Drone manufacturing need much more details than just plastic frame, like 4 motors at least. Thay had shortages of motor and mainbords lately.
Im maybe wrong, but it souds like someone just making monay from war again.
Regarding Airwolf in 2012, awesome 40 filament 3d printer, multi nozzle, color and material. Way ahead of the curve US company. China, TEACHES markets. Your child will buy the 50 Bambu 20K Extremes for their additive manufacturing company, on demand in the year 2032
Valid but what about the plastic itself? You select specific plastics without BPA etc when buying normal plastic products that are non-porous. What about filament? Do they all contain safe components ? What if you put it in your dishwasher or let your kid suck on it, daily. It must get into your body as much as BPA could, id you drink water daily with that water bottle? (Big issue? No idea) + Microplastics etc can't be better in a porous product I would assume.
No need to be scared but people should at least compare it to similar products to get some perspective. Because normal injected plastic products are not ideal either, but I assume most people don't care about that.
But that's a bigger topic.
The point that US don't build B2C maschines is a result of the workforce costs and that the Development in shenzen is way faster due the close infrasturktur of cheap parts Supply and fast molds ans parts maker.
So, it sounds like in order for America to keep up, they'd need to have:
1) Make it more affordable to have a conpany exsist AND to pay skilled workers to "power" the companies.
2: increase the shear volume of base component manufacturing in the US, especially in such a way that transport from one manufacturer to the next is simplified and made inexpensive. (Industrial parks are one thing, making cross country travel/freight more viable/less expensive is another, so on, so forth)
Hey Gabe, Just a question. Why did you have to go to China to buy a tensile testing machine? Tinius-Olsen machines have been around forever. Couldn't you have bought a used one?
This IS a good question. Idk anything about the machine manufacturer they went with or the one you described.
But based on my understanding, either Slant needed a machine that operates in a lower force grade range of machine that maybe the machine you've described works "too well" by having too wide a range (like measuring a Nail using a tape measure rather than using a caliper or ruler); maybe there's still a budget and despite the ideal of keeping machines and manufacturing in America, how things are rn maybe that's what they needed to stay close to budget; lastly, maybe they needed a special modification that maybe that Chinese machine had specifically. For that last one I also think this could be a factor: maybe its the kind of machine that would be most commonly used by the most common manufacturers of filament, and they need to use one of them for the sake of consistency for repeatable testing, which is required for real scientific data processing.
I'm not necessarily trying to "defend" the company blindly, but trying to share reasonings that I'd probably use to justify the choice.
Most likely, worst response: they never heard of that brand.
Who knocks on the door so excessive on 34:30? 😂
Probably his big sister trying to find out when he is going to get out of the bathroom. They can be so annoying.
Stanley's thermos recently got exposed for having lead inside of them 😆
Anecdotes are not evidence, but roughly 60% of people who posted on the R2-D2 Builders Club forums about having an X1C or P1P were new to 3D printing. And in other contexts, there's been a lot of people like myself who *technically* had previous experience with 3D printing but found it to be absolutely miserable because the existing platforms were so unreliable and constantly needed upgrading and tuning, but found using Bambu machines easy and enjoyable. Though on the flip side, I know at least one person who had 2 printers before and now owns three Bambu machines, so there's definitely a certain amount of the market shifting rather than growing.
Based on this admittedly very limited data set, I suspect that a substantial percentage of Bambu sales were to people who are either brand new to 3Dprinting or who had effectively left the hobby and thus weren't spending money anywhere else.
Bambu printers work. Constantly. Reliably. I hardly spend any time at all fixing things on my X1C. Routine maintenance? Yes. Unplanned stoppages or breakages? Not so much.
It would make sense to me if China hasn't adopted industrial 3d printing because they're so good and have so much invested in traditional manufacturing
desktop concrete printer ..... Now that would be interesting to see lol
There are one off printers that print in clay for ceramics. It's not the same process by any means, but it's printing volume is comparable to a 220x220x350 FDM printer, with the result being an object you can set on a shelf to dry for a week to dry, (or however long you need to for your environment) and then fire in a kiln. There is some 'working' time for either smoothing layers, or scraping off over-extrusion, similar to scraping flash off of classically poured and drained ceramics. As I understand it, the people doing this are primarily experimental artists looking at doing new things with various designs and build methods. As the printing process for clay very likely does not include any heating elements, it would not surprise me if the process could be extended for Desktop Concrete.
Yes, concrete won't run through a 2 mm plastic tube, and we probably would have issues running it through a 0.4 mm nozzle, but as long as the aggregate is fine enough, I can see a printer that does printer top mixing of the concrete, push through a 25 mm tube to a 1.5 mm nozzle, seems like it might work. The problem I see is that one of the reasons that building size 3d printing does work is that the concrete that's been extruded is capable of supporting the next layer when the nozzle gets around the structure a that layer. Unless someone comes up with a solution that works with a fast set concrete, that won't set up in the tube to the nozzle, I don't see it happening. It certainly won't be a high speed print process. At that level, the mass that you're pushing around with that nozzle is mostly going to be the concrete in the extrusion tube.
Someone estimated the amount of lead that would be leached, by weighing the nozzle with a milligram scale, then running many kg of filament through it and weighing it again to calculate the lost material. Even with the highest lead content brass, it would take many rolls of filament to reach even the daily lead intake limit. That's assuming you actually ate all that filament, since the amount that would leach into food would be even more miniscule.
Correct
19:05 I agree, ppls bull💩ing on that subject has just gone way too far..like find something better to bowl💩 about, there's plenty out there
the name "Tangled Filament" is bad and says your product is bad
I suspect the cheaper faster core xy clones/followers are going to take off in 2024 and bamboo is going to lose a bit.
Is someone playing bongos while you're recording?
ZERO chance of a US-grown Snapmaker or Bambu labs succeeding because some behemoth would sue them for patents AT SOME POINT, which there's a much greater barrier for in China as blocking imports would require the big established company first proving to an actual judge that their patent was infringed on and there's no way the Chinese company could have invented it themselves.
Why would anyone start building hobbyist printers in the US when Stratasys and HP and the other industrial makers hold all the patents, and loom over any idea you might come up with along the way trying to release an interesting consumer printer to the market? They might not win in court, but they'll put you out of business with legal costs.
You should probably try writing a script every time so the details dont mess you up so much.
Podcast
A bit of an overused joke but they'll be the first to make a rubber passenger jet... it goes boing! when it crashes.
I will gladly buy one of your machines, as a kit or assembled if you can keep the price under $1k and you'll take PayPal I love my prusa and its ender/Anker clones, but my k1 is my primary device for its core XY motion system. It would be quite a boon to those who wish to access your API in the future to have a dev platform with identical slicer settings and materials for verification, I'd even agree to something like a 3 kg/month subscription to tangled for 2 years as a prerequisite of purchase. Let's be the reason the USA shows up as a more than a blip as a printer manufacturer next year 🍻
why, you can get much much much better and more capable machines for that kind of money...
@@riba2233because I have access to their print farm and I can spam my models through mine knowing they work all day long in whatever material is available
@@riba2233 design viability through their API is incredibly valuable if one wishes to capitalize upon it
Stop kicking the mic! xD
Other things you may find 3d printing good for, cracker trays, candy dishes, Bespoke containers for ground products like flower, sugar, coffee (even coffee beans) and so on.
One of the arguments I've been seeing is that the only filament (the commentator says) is food safe is Polypropylene, as every other filament is hydrophilic, and that makes it a potential vector for bacteria, etc. Here's the problem with that argument that I see. If I go to the grocery store and buy a 2-liter bottle of a soft drink, consume the beverage, and then cut the bottom and top off the bottle, run it through one of these filastruder rigs to make PET filament and then 3d print a candy dish, at what point did the material go from being food safe as a bottle containing a beverage to not food safe as a candy dish? None of the process of turning the bottle into filament changes it's hydrophilic characteristics, (that I know of, happy to be shown that I'm wrong on that.) I'm willing to allow that the product may need additional treatment to seal it so that contamination doesn't take up residence within the dish, but that's related to whether the surface is sealed, and or the print is 'solid', not whether the filament is hydrophilic. Note as well, I'm not saying this is a way to make food safe products. I'm simply pointing out that PET, which a lot of people will admit is going to absorb water, on it's own doesn't make the soft drink bottle not food safe. Some may argue about whether what's in those bottles can be considered food, but since that is an entirely different tangent, I'll let others argue over whether sugar in the beverage or some other substance is converted into energy within the body.
Lol, not the best accent but you get a participation trophy, yay 😂
Did you just use lead as a reference for food safe material? I wouldn't recommend doing that, it's not at all a convincing argument, and shows how low your standards for food-safe is. If there are studies funded by non biased organization, that would be more convincing
22:38 oh no you had to pay for your own money making venture? Sad.
What is that constant dunking sound. kind of annoying. otherwise good podcast
I can't believe Audible doesn't care that he does the sponsor read in a fake accent.
I assume its affiliate based rather than being something like get paid cash for mentioning the platform. And if this IS the case, I doubt they manually review all videos that have an affiliate link attached due to the sheer amount of them.
I guess they're OK with them.... "Making an Audible" lol
I wonder if they force him to say it and not have someone else do the ad. Because they want to make it seem like he genuinely loves audible. So his work around is doing it in a silly accent so he doesn’t sound like an audible shill. They paid for air time, and they got it I guess.
It's so incredibly poor form. He thinks it's funny or something, no, it just demonstrates a total lack of professionalism and respect.
I actually listen to these ad reads 😂
Would you just stop it with the finger tapping?? PLEASE, GOD, PLEASE!
I could not finish the video with that bumping sound. And the Southern accent thing was stupid as hell.
You have something bounce on the table that make noise when you move your hands on the table, this is driving me nuts🤪😅🫡❤
Thanks to point it out, it is driving me insane
Next video - How to safely lick a puddle of fish blood off a 3d printed cutting board 😎