Eternal Hell or Annihilationism - Fr. Gregory Pine, O.P.
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
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To call the sustaining of torture a “mercy” is to define perfect love in a way contrary to the natural law Fr. Pine claims we all have. As Pine says it's a difficult to make sense of that contradiction because it requires a descent into absurdity do to so.
I know it’s incorrect of me to feel this way and may need more spiritual maturity to overcome this, but there is something in me that cannot get past the idea of it being more loving to keep one in existence in eternal pain and suffering and sorrow than to erase them into nothingness. Please pray for me.
They are kept not in pain and suffering but in the presence of God’s burning love; the love of which they have seemingly rejected and therefore it burns them in the core of their very soul, which longs for God.
I believe His love also entails respecting our autonomy to a degree. So if we (to our great detriment) decide to turn away from Him rather than towards Him, that too must be possible without being annihilated. Either way I will pray for you and ask that you pray for me to be corrected in case I'm wrong about this.
@@TheGraceConnectionThat is an absolutely superb definition (if definition is the right term for it). Obviously the wording is yours but do you have any sources for the idea behind it? I’d love to read more on that given how well you put it.
@@TheGraceConnection I would say they fully rejected God's love since we know God to be just and merciful., "Seemingly" would imply the possibility the damned accepted God's love, which would be an impossibility. But yes it makes sense that they would burn from that love and be tormented by their eternal loss and even eternal hatred.
I've found the little book, "What Will Hell be Like?" by St. Alphonsus Liguori to be immensely helpful in contemplation and understanding the state of the damned.
The book 'The Sickness unto Death' by Soren Kierkegaard is a great read on this subject. Difficult to get through, and it must be read slowly, but well worth the effort.
What a timely video! I was just searching the teachings on annihilationism and saw this was posted yesterday!
Always a joy to hear from you, Fr. Pine. Thank you for this explanation, and God bless you!
Fr. Pine, thank you. This is helpful. Praying for clergy.
ST. POPE JOHN PAUL II: : “Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell and even less the improper use of biblical images must not create anxiety or despair... The concept of hellfire, the fiery furnace and the unquenchable fire of Gehenna need to be interpreted as symbolic language... The risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the Spirit of God who makes us cry, ‘Abba, Father!’” (Rm 8:15; Gal 5:6).
That seems to make so much more sense, there's the answer to me
I am continually astonished by Fr. Pine's wisdom, truly he knows much of God, and His works.
Yet he’s completely clueless about hell?
Fr. Gregory, can we get a book recommendation video from you?! Would love to know what your favorite books are and what you’ve learned the most from.
Thank God I’m not Catholic
And what are you then?
@@littlepenny1520 One must be Catholic to be saved.
“But God does not decreate you… God is true to His word. He is true to his creative intent. In so far as He expresses his creative intent at the beginning of your life, so He continues to see that creative intent through.” Great stuff. That really helps me to understand. Thanks Father Pine.
That's actually something I have to declare and keep working upon to make it happen as...things are not exactly working towards my charitable wellbeing
And that saying has been around since I was actually an infant
He sees his creative intent through by torturing sinners for all eternity?
@@ABC123jd No. God - possibly - saves everyone. He certainly offers salvation to all. We have to freely, and knowingly choose to reject God to go to ‘hell’. Hell is not a physical place. It is a state of being. It is the misery that follows from freely and knowingly choosing to permanently reject the good, the true and the beautiful.
@@blakemoon123 So where do the resurrected lost go when they are in hell if hell is not a physical place?
The damned become less and less human, but they never completely cease to exist, but they will come metaphysically as close to that as possible, just as the saved will never fully have the grace of God, but will always come as metaphysically close to it as possible.
Huh br is heaven the bei in full communion with God
And where’s your proof for that?
If you are in a state of eternal torment, I don't think refusing to destroy you can be described as an act of the love of God. The torment is an act of justice, but is eternal torment for temporal sin an act of justice, or would temporal punishment and anihilation not be more just? I can believe in hell which is eternal where satan is, and I can believe that humans will go to hell and be tormented, but I find it hard to believe that humans will go and be eternally tormented in hell. I sort of end up believing in a sort of semi-annihilationist position.
It's nonsense to have a problem with eternal human suffering but not eternal angelic suffering. It's still eternal suffering. I'm stupefied at the irrationality. God's love doesn't contradict His mercy and justice. All will be saved, including demons.
I can see the conflict between temporal sin and eternal punishment. Then it occurred to me that there are some sins that are eternally consequential. If at atheist persuades another individual to reject the Gospel, the results of THAT sin are eternal. I'll leave the matter in the hands of our righteous judge.
@@ObsidianTeenFalse. That heresy has been formally condemned by the church.
@@The_Rad_Trad, just because something is heresy doesn't make it false. The Roman Church is wrong. All will be saved. It would be evil if God left a sentient being to suffer forever.
@@ObsidianTeen Matt. 25:41 - Jesus says, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Matt. 25:46 - Jesus says, “they will go away into eternal punishment” which is in reference to this eternal fire.
Mark 9:47-48 - Jesus refers to hell as where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. It lasts forever.
Submit to Rome 🇻🇦
Very good! I enjoyed this so much more at 0.75 speed. Your brain is a gift; my brain carries within it a privation of such capacities.
Wait, what??? God loves us so much that he choses to allow us to be tortured for all eternity rather than just wipe us out of existence after death? We have different definitions of love, mon ami.
He gives everyone the choice for salvation, no one goes to hell by accident.
@@The_Rad_Trad So, like a Mafia boss, God makes humans an offer that they can't refuse? Once again, not how any healthy person defines love.
@@Charlotte_Martel We as humans are destined for separation from God because of Original Sin. God offers his mercy towards us, we can accept it or reject it freely. Simple as that.
@@The_Rad_Trad, we didn't choose to have an indeterministic power of choice that does A over B unpredictably. It would be evil for God to punish one forever for doing B over A when they would've been intrinsically the same had they done A. Free choices are like a coin toss.
@@ObsidianTeen God’s universe, His rules.
If we were created to be in God's presence for eternity, and by our choice we choose to be apart from that presence for eternity,
then it is basically saying "no thanks" to that purpose for which we have been created, and by our free will we choose to become other than what we were created to be. By this act which inherently rejects our own creation, we choose this state that become final and eternal upon our death.
Thus by free will and one's own voluntary act to commit mortal sin, we do effect our own decreation, because to sin against the Creator to such a degree as to sever us from Him for eternity is to frustrate his very will in creating us, and our ultimate state departs from what He willed from all eternity in creating us, and we therefore become a something that is not what He created us to be.
See Is 45:9 "Shall the clay say to the potter, “What are you doing?” But that is exactly what we accomplish when we effect our own damnation. We decide that we should have remained clay, and we shatter ourselves into shards to never be a pot again, albeit never able to fully unmake the basic particles of what we are, and having to live with that truth forever, a testament to our fundamentally failing to fulfill his act in making us, because of our decision to reject the one who made us, and thus reject the act of our own making.
Then, as Ivan said to Alyosha, better to not start the whole project of humanity if we must torture one child to death for our salvation. If God knows one of his creation is destined to be tortured for eternity, better to not create creation to begin with.
It's not my fault that I was created with free will, which is indeterministic. God owes it to Himself to ensure all are saved.
@@ObsidianTeen well no, it is God’s fault you were given free will. But this gift is not that of a snowplow parent who takes away any real consequences to your decisions. Rather the nature of the gift is that we have been made in his image, in our capacity to be free to use reason and foresee moral responsibility for what we might cause by our actions. God will give us all we need to embrace and live that nature fully, and thereby to choose the good, but our decision is ours to make, because that is the gift we have been given, that our choice is a free decision.
I don't know that it makes sense that God is loving you more by torturing you for eternity as opposed to ceasing your existence.
It's doesn't make sense at all. It's false
The doctrine of eternal hell seems to rot people's brains out.
Brother Gregory I love your videos and how you use church vocabulary and still make it very personable. I do have one request from you though, after introduction can you give us all a blessing? I would really appreciate that and I feel many others would as well. Anyhow thank you for your hard work and may the Lord bless and keep you.
Honest question:
If God's love for us extends even into the depths of Hell, wouldn't that mean that down there there is still a chance to accept it and be redeemed? I'm a little confused on how you could be in Hell and still experience mercy and love.
We don't know these things....but the belief is we can be separated from God ....interesting to read Lyra Pritstick on reflections on Christ's decent into Hell.
Chris, no the church affirms that the decision of one to choose hell is eternal, I believe it might even me a dogma. In the pits of hell, if one chose to accept God (which is impossible, because the damned curse God), it would be because to be with God would be the lesser of two evils, according to them. To use a figure of speech
I think if there was a chance someone in hell could accept God's love and God's will the better argument would be that they would never have gone to hell to begin.
At our death our will becomes fixed like that of the angels.
It becomes impossible for us to choose otherwise.
Because if you could choose God while being damned in hell then by that logic saints in heaven could become damned.
I think those in Hell are those who are unredeemable, i.e., can't accept God because they have become so twisted.
Father Gregory, can you come to France ? It's very very beautiful and I want to meet you 😂
Seriously, your videos are always a source of wissom.
Disgusting to have to defend against ancient heresies - but maybe not when they are espoused by the current pope.
iF I sAy SoMeThInG iS hErEsY lIkE fOoL, iT mEaN I sOmE kInDa SmrTmAn!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Yet the danger always remains that by a constant refusal to open the doors of their hearts to Christ who knocks on them in the poor, the proud, rich and powerful will end up condemning themselves and plunging into the eternal abyss of solitude which is Hell."
Pope Francis Message for Lent 2016
"The power, the money, that you possess now from so many dirty transactions, from so many mafia crimes, is blood-stained money, it is power soaked in blood, and you cannot take it with you to the next life. Convert, there is still time, so that you don’t end up in hell. That is what awaits you if you continue on this path." Address of Pope Francis March 21 2014
"We must be aware of the presence of this astute enemy, who seeks our eternal condemnation, our failure, and prepare to defend ourselves against him and to combat him." Pope Francis Angelus address Feb 21 2021
Hoping that listening to Fr Pine makes me smarter 😂
It won’t it will just make you utterly confused and feel totally unworthy. Fr GP makes things that should be pure and simple and straightforward seem ludicrously complicated and unattainable. He’s happy enough in his little bubble- he’s having a great time. 😅
I am Catholic but I agree more with the idea of conditional immortality. Eternal conscious torment does not seem to fit God divine attributes. It makes more sense for someone to go to hell for a period of time and paid for what they did and then to be annihilated. The more I study the Bible the more I disagree with eternal conscious torment.
It’s Dogma that there is an eternal hell.
NEITHER
Father, what do you make of the following idea? That (1) to exist in the mind of God is to exist in reality, (2) to cease to exist would be to be absent from the mind of God, (3) God cannot “forget” what/who He “knows”, because, (4) forgetting is not a positive action, but rather a flaw of memory. Thus, as God’s mind and memory are perfect, He cannot “forget” people, and thus no one can be annihilated.
Interesting explanation
I'm not an annihilationist, but this argument is flawed because of point 2
God is Omniscient, meaning He knows all things. If you ceased to exist in reality you would still be present as a concept in the mind of God, for example: You can think of a car that there was only one model made of, and then that car gets annihilated. Although it would cease to exist in actuality it would still be a concept that is present in your mind.
Because, the mind=/=reality
@@mrmcface713 but God=/= physical reality
@tomn4483 That, too, God is transcendental to the real world. Something doesn't have to exist in reality in order to exist in the mind of God, which is proven by the first verse in the Bible, "In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth"
@@mrmcface713 my question would be, did you exist before God created you? Obviously you didn't, so just being in the mind of God doesn't mean that you have to exist
I consider myself fairly intelligent, and even teach at a university. But I just can’t understand the what Father Pine is saying in this video.
It’s not just you Fr GP makes no sense whatsoever.
The first lie in the Bible: Gen 3:4 “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:” This eternal punishment doctrine is not biblical and devalues the price Jesus paid on the cross. Jesus isn’t burning eternally now is he?
I would say that it is ontologically impossible for something that exists to cease to exist. The verb itself denotes a transition that occurs in time. But once you die, you are outside of time.
Once we leave the immanent, our lives are completed and we see the immanent all at once and apprehend it fully. It doesn't make sense that one person's acts and their reverberations in the immanent would continue to exist but the causer would not, from a transcendental point of view. You need to understand that in the transcendent time itself is unfolded and displayed as a unity to us. We will see the whole history of the immanent as we see a triangle draw on a piece of paper - We see all of its parts at once. The simple fact that something once came into the immanent already presupposes that it created a causal chain, and if at any point the the causer is simply made into "not being", that would break the triangle for it would break its continuity as a whole.
I'm probably not using the correct terms and using the best analogies. But anyway, I doubt that anybody from Matt's team will see this post, but this is something that I would really like to talk about with a good thomist.
The immortality of the soul is a consequence of reality itself.
It's important to recognize that for man after death, he is not strictly speaking 'out of time' as synonymous with God in His Eternity; but rather in a kind of state which is not like the time which exists in earthly life - aspects of God's divine indwelling, like a newness which is never ceasing, are indeed present but received under the mode of man's created being; hence for those in Heaven, their relation is described in the medieval tradition as 'aeviternal' rather than strictly 'eternal' - as to be strictly eternal, absolutely atemporal, belongs to God alone. Some important indications of this are, for instance, the event which is the General Resurrection; which conflicts to an absolute atemporality for created beings, since their becoming atemporal implies there's absolutely no change whatsoever in the saint following death and entry into glory.
Now, another thing is if all things must exist in some way exist eternally since their effects have real consequences in history, we couldn't say that this is just a proof for the immortality of man, but of the permanence of all substances, since everything which exists would then have some kind of eternality in virtue of its effects. But there are some things whose existence is very much within the temporal, which do not add anything to strict eternality but come to be and pass within their existential context, like a wheat crop which becomes bread and is eaten; this chain of events with respect to the wheat crop is properly temporal, and temporal existence is real existence, not just something with a "shadow" of existence. Such substances perhaps can persist as an idea or memory, but not necessarily themselves existing in a permanence of themselves as we would say of the human soul.
I thought God said only he is immortal.
Can you be Catholic and believe in annihilationism? Is it a dogma? Thank you
Yes and no. Catholicism isn't like protestantism where you can usually just pick one of several reasonable interpretations for a passage and run with it. Often times the Catholic Church teaches one set interpretation and you have to accept it if you want to don't want to stir up trouble.
@socalkook370 The only ones running with anything seem to be those attacking annihilationists. They use straw man arguments. For example claiming we believe "hell is not real". Nobody said that, it is real. "See the Bible verse where it says hell is eternal?". Who said it wasn't eternal? It is. "See where it says Satan and his angels will suffer eternally?" Yes. Are these people Satan and his angels? "See where it says people will be judged?" Who says they won't be judged? "See where it says they will suffer?" Who said they wouldn't suffer? Then they add "so they clearly will suffer conscious eternal punishment". The Holy scripture says they will perish in the eternal fire. The results of this are eternal and cannot be undone. The theological difference is minute and can be boiled down to one thing. I would ask those engaging in the subject to not run and stay on topic. Cheers brother
@@socalkook370 but I understand what you said and agree with it.
There is no official list of dogmas. None. Thus, good luck figuring out what teachings in the catechism are dogma. The Ott book is not official.
I have yet to meet a Catholic who believed me when I stated this, and none have disproved me.
Read Edward Fudge on annialationalism.
It’s a heresy, so if you believe in it you put your salvation at risk.
One problem with the doctrine of Hell consists, in my opinion, in a desproportion between an temporal evil met with an eternal punishment. If you skip one mass and die without penace, there is eternal ever present suffering. It's hard to understand...
The idea is that those that go to Hell either _want_ to be there, or were totally irreformable. If one was reformable, it would be purgatory instead!
This sounds a bit crazy, but believe me people like that are everywhere. You may know some yourself, I certainly do.
By the way, if you don't go to mass but deeply regret it (and have firmly decided to go next time!), you're fine. If you were misinformed and told it wasn't a strict requirement, God will know your heart. It's the duty of Christians to inform others, if anything the penalty would go on us who stayed silent.
After all, imperfect souls can still go to Heaven.
But to repeat, it's eternal because not even eternity would change these people.
Well remember that "dying without penance" means that you did not just commit a sin but had a change of heart towards evil and persisted in that sin until death. (You only need a desire and intention to repent, so if you're on your way to confession or you're about to go to confession, then you are still salvageable, because you have repentance.)
@@gunsgalore7571 Thanks for the comment and taking the time to answer . But about penance-a.k.a. confession-, it is said that only a perfect contrition will do, and that is a product of Divine especial grace; granted, I can be wrong.
Again, thanks for the response. God bless you.
@@crusaderACRthat sounds like a lot of assumptions going on here .. just because some people change very slowly does not mean they are ireformable some people get very stuck and then see a huge turn around suddenly and make big leaps in their maturity other people mature at different paces.
If God is all powerful then he could create all sorts of places for different groups of souls: doesn’t sound very efficient to just let a large portion of humanity rot for eternity for not being able live up to a set of very difficult expectations
In hell, God is justly punishing those who deserve to be punished everlastingly.
It is incorrect to assume that our earthly understanding of 'torment' is the same as God's actual 'torment' because we do not know what his 'torment' is.
God's 'torment' is what he chooses it to be, not what we want it to be.
The description of 'fire and brimstone' is meant to be literal and illustrative so we can visualize how horrible hell will be.
Plausibly, God's torment will include psychological and other forms of torment.
The epitome of God's 'torment' is that it is everlasting and that anything less is an escape from his 'torment' or justice.
Why would God allow those in hell to escape from his justice?
What have they done to deserve this clemency?
God's redemption and grace are not available to those in hell; hence, 'annihilationism,' which is a form of redemption and grace, cannot happen.
If the elected are favoured in heaven everlasting, then the unelected are tormented in hell everlasting.
Who gets eternal life? Those in Christ. Simple as…
I belive in Apokatastasis or universal restoration
The Bible says few will find the way that leads to life, not everyone
The questioner is expressing the view of St Athanasius found in his book “Against the heathen”.
Admittedly his view is not mainstream but I would like to see some Catholic leaders consider his view more seriously.
In my view: Consider in the story of Adam and Eve - God expels them from the garden and posts an angel as guard to prevent them from
‘eating from the tree of life’. This shows humans are not ‘essentially’ immortal.
Athanasius says immortality is conditional on retaining the image of God and that hell is the descent into non-existence.
Moving to your view: Would you say there is still hope for the damned? Hope to somehow leave their state and enter purgatory and then heaven?
If there is no hope-I fail to see how sustaining the damned is existence is an act of love.
I believe, were I damned, I would be begging God with every breath: “let me die! Let me die! Let me die!”
Why would God refuse to ‘let my will be done’? If as many say, hell is simply God honoring our choices?
These thoughts lead me to hope that the church might reconsider this issue.
No one goes to hell untill the jugemengt Day of god, poeple go the realm of the dead or Abraham boosem
Oh yes the first lie ever told eat from the tree you will surely not die
This is horrible
This is crazy. It is like the swami's who analyze a simple question to death but come to no direct conclusion. Fr. Gregory did not answer the question. To put it more simply, is hell eternal or will it be utterly destroyed someday? The answer is the latter. Many things spoken of in scriptures regards spotlessness, or perfect cleanliness. The eternal kingdom of God cannot be spotless if the filth and perversions of hell remain anywhere in any form. To do so would be for God to surrender an eternal victory to the devil, who could eternally debase the image and likeness of God in the souls that are present. Flavius Josephus, in his discord to the Greeks, spoke of a place where the souls of both the righteous and the wicked go. All are assigned temporary punishments that all the souls agree are just. The righteous are guided by the angels upwards in singing and joy for they know when they have finished their punishments they will be with God in eternal bliss. The wicked are dragged downward and are "pressed hard about the lake of fire in fearful anticipation of the death to come." The lake of fire represents the second and eternal death. The only way God's victory over the Devil and evil can be absolute is if the Devil and Hell are destroyed - wiped out of all existence in every form... even in the memory of it once existing.
Why do contemporary theologians argue most people go to heaven? This seems to be a departure of what the church has traditionally believed.
I think it’s dangerous to souls. I’ve even heard devout Catholics argue that “we don’t even know anyone is in hell”
I think that phrase makes sense when qualified that we can't judge the state of any individual's soul so we need to pray for all the departed. The Church doesn't declare any specific person to be in Hell.
Thought it seems clear in scripture and the tradition that there are and will be people in hell and it would be a bit disingenuous to say it in a way that would lead someone to actually think that no one is there.
@@Forester- I agree with all your points. But to clarify, the church nor any theologian is judging the state of anyone’s soul. They are just using scripture and tradition to determine the odds
What are you talking about? Devout Catholics (read the saints) are very mostly fearful of going to hell and approach their salvation with "fear and trembling"
@@iheartwatches I was referring to friends
Father just keep it simple
Hard to understand.
Neither is correct. An omnipotent God who knew that the majority, or much of, his creation would choose eternal hell or annihilation and still decide to create them would not be good. Thus, only universalism solves the problem of God being both good and omnipotent. If one objects on the grounds that God is good by definition, that is reasonable, at least if you are speaking to another Christian. But it's hard to follow the logic of the Bible in it's entirety when one contrasts a God of infinite love with a set of circumstances where souls who did not will their own creation suffer eternal conscious torment or burn away into nothingness.
I sometimes wish that were true. But I reached a point where I could no longer hold that view, for that is not that is not what the Scriptures seem to indicate. Jesus spends a great deal of time warning about the dangers of being cast out into the outer darkness. If all are saved, why did Jesus say it would have been better for Judas if he had never been born? I just don't think the Universalist view can answer that question in a satisfactory manner.
Only by your definition of good.
There is justice too.
Someone who thinks that grave sin does not deserve hell does not know the depths of evil that it is, and does not comprehend what truly good means.
Our brains are pidly. It would be like a dog questioning the master.
@@nolangimpel7637
Jesus warned about people going to hell, this is true. However, an eternal hell is not consistent with love or useful for rehabilitation. On the premise of eternal hell, we have to reconcile the fact that God would have known it would be better for Judas to never have been born but still created him. On Universalism, we need only understand that Judas' time in hell, while not infinite, will be great, since he saw the full glory of God, in person, and still betrayed him.
@@popebenedict7615
Your reply, whether knowingly or unknowingly, betrayed your reasoning. You said our grave sins deserve hell, which I would agree with. But you did not say our grave sins deserve eternal hell, which I do not. Finite sins cannot merit infinite punishment. No calculus gets you there. It is true that God's will cannot be questioned, but we must discern whether or not our idea, our interpretation of God is reasonable. I can't reconcile eternal hell with love, but if hell is truly terrible, but not eternal, and thus, rehabilitative even if painful, things can make sense.
@@menandermenandros5532 ok, so what you’re saying is that you reject Jesus’ infallible words. Matthew 25:41 - “Then He will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’” v. 46 - “And these will go off to ETERNAL PUNISHMENT , but the righteous to ETERNAL LIFE.” I wish more people didn’t go off their own intuition and ideas to combat God’s omniscience and omnibenevolence. Brother, don’t let this wrong idea of yours discourage you. Rather, use it to understand the reality and horror of mortal sin. We literally can’t even begin to fathom how evil and wicked grave acts are in the eyes of God. That is why the sacrament of Reconciliation and baptism as well as the raw mercy of God to people at their deathbeds is so incredible!! Christ pulls them up from the depths of their sin and sanctifies their souls! I know Hell is a difficult dogma, but don’t try to play God here. We will all understand in the end, and that is what matters. For now, focus on God’s gifts to humanity and the Church and know that while eternal punishment is truly possible, our goal is the eternal reward of Heaven and seeing the Almighty God face to face!! Let Him deal with the world for now, but when you are ready to accept the reality, preach Christ crucified boldly!
Wrong.
Neither Eternal Hell nor Annihilationism is a position that can be upheld by some of the wellsprings of early Orthodoxy; e.g., Clement of Alexandria, Origen, the Cappadocian Fathers (particularly Gregory of Nyssa). I recommend wholeheartedly to check David Bentley Hart's "That All Shall Be Saved", which is an important corrective to the things we got wrong.
I just don't think that you can be an orthodox Catholic and hold to Universalism, you can find it in the Fathers but the magisterium has spoken about the eternity of hell and explicitly condemned some of those teachings.
This is heresy.
How can we dare to think that the magisterium in early modernity knew things better than the actual Fathers of the Church? It is interesting to consider that the notion of hell as an eternal conscious torment was first mentioned by Saint Augustine. He strongly opposed universalism, but interestingly he did not consider universalists heretics per se. Things are a little more complex. I wholeheartedly recommend Ilaria Ramelli's work on apokatastasis in the Patristic Era.
I think there is something wrong with the title, is it supposed to say draft?
Father Gregory, could you please do a video on Apophatic theology? Sometimes I get the eery feeling I am daring to speak of God, as if I was "controlling" Him, or "telling God" what He can or cannot do. I don´t know how to explain it. God is such a Mystery and yet we know things about Him since He has revealed to us. But then again, like someone said: "a newborn baby knows more of the world than us from God". There is a lecture here in CZcams by Bishop Kalistos Ware on the subject: czcams.com/video/TZnsLdRz1jA/video.html but its separated in two or three parts. I think its an interesting topic to "reconcile" this apparent contradiction. Daring to talk about the Mystery and yet, seems like God delights in revealing to ourselves, and in us thinking and speaking about Him. Like little children talking about their parents. Anyway, thanks for reading, cheers from México, and thanks in advanced. Great explanations. Such a great mind!
Why would a loving God send people to hell? Because he is a just JUDGE. The Bible says He must punish sin. BUT NOBODY has to go to hell. His love and mercy provided a way out for us. Christ dying on the cross in our place. "He who knew no sin, became a sin offering for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ."
Matthew 25:31-36 says, "Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed. . . . And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” 2Thessalonians 1:5-10 says, "The Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction..." Revelation 14:9-11 says, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath...and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have NO REST, day or night." If they were annihilated out of existence, then the statement no rest day or night makes no sense. Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and ever. . .Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if ANYONE"S name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." By the way, the word torment is translated from the Greek word Basanismos, and it means to torture. It absolutely does NOT mean to annihilate and put out of existence.
God is just so he'll torture people for all eternity? What then would be too harsh of a punishment?
@@ABC123jd The Bible says the wicked will be judged according to their deeds as recorded in the books. So somehow, there will be degrees of eternal punishment in the lake of fire.
@@MB777-qr2xv But what would be too harsh of a punishment for someone?
@@ABC123jd I don't know an answer to that, I just know no one has to go to HELL. Turn to Christ, God's pardon for sin.
@@MB777-qr2xv I don't see how you can say eternal torment is a just punishment if you can't think of anything worse than that.
Bull Crap...The Bible Teaches Annihilation of the Lost...See. 2 Pet. 2:6...
Nothingness is much scarier then Hell to me.
@@epistemophiliac5334You're worth more than that. Like the title of Bl. Fulton Sheen's classic TV program, Life is Worth Living. Maybe you can find some comfort in that show. Life is worth living and you are a worthy creation put on this Earth for a purpose. I pray you find it and I will pray for you.
@@zatoichi1Heaven (as described by many churches and religions) doesn't sound appealling and given immortality on earth seems unlikely; I'd definitely take oblivion over eternal torment; which I think is pretty good evidence that de-creation is more loving and merciful that a torturous existence enduring forever without hope of reprieve.
@@EspadaKing777well Heaven actually is immortality in earth, eventually. At the end of the world, God remakes the world and the souls from heaven return to new earthly bodies, and live in perpetual bliss in God’s presence, as fully physical and spiritual beings once again. Humans aren’t meant to stay as spirits. Even the souls of the damned get their bodies back, although according to some such as Dante that just makes hell worse. We cannot judge God by saying we are more loving and merciful than He is. He knows everything, and His essence is pure love. So if we think we know better or we are more just, we finite beings, we are doing something evil and we should recognize that even if we do not understand the why’s behind God decisions, they are the perfect decision and we would actually arrive at them if we were omnipotent and purely loving as He is. Some of God’s decisions take a long time to understand. One aspect of Heaven is that it’s an endless tracking down of the mysteries of God. This means we will always be learning about God and His decisions, even when in Heaven.
If you didn’t exist you wouldn’t be aware that you didn’t exist
Every time you watch a Fr. Gergory Pine video, your IQ goes up 10%.
Not really, to me most of what he said was bs.
"God cannot decreate his creations"
Why not? Lol. God is not an all-loving and all-benevolent being if he lets you be tormented forever and ever in a pit of fire.
"I'm a Dominican friar." Ok, but you're wrong. God will save everyone, including the demons. Only an evil God would let people suffer forever because they indeterministically chose B over A. The Roman church and Islam may say otherwise, but the Roman church and Islam are wrong.
why are you presuming indeterminism
Neither. Patristic universalism.
As a conditionalist, I don't entirely agree with universalism, but it sure makes waaay more sense that the "traditional" view of hell
That’s heresy.
@@catholictruth102 Prove Saint Gregory of Nyssa, Saint Isaac the Syrian and Saint Maximus the Confessor were wrong, with reference to the Church Fathers.
@@PaxMundi118 They didn’t teach universalism. And the very earliest apostolic fathers did teach ECT. Like St Justin Martyr, and Polycarp.
@@catholictruth102 If proving me wrong means being wrong in your assertion and providing no evidence for it, you are completely right.
Bla Bla Bla