Too Heavy And Too Slow, But The Douglas Skyknight Still Became A Korean And Vietnam War Warrior
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- The Douglas Skyknight was the US Navy's first attempt to build a carrier-capable all-weather jet fighter. Unfortunately jet engine technology in the late 1940s wasn't quite developed enough to get all of that equipment off and back on a carrier deck safely.
Willy The Whale, as it was unkindly known, could have faded into obscurity if it wasn't for the Marine Corps. In their hands it fought as a pioneering night fighter in Korea and then, in another guise, was also a pioneer of electronic warfare in Vietnam.
The Skyknight is, in my view, one of the most under-appreciated aircraft of the Cold War era. It was not a glamorous fighter, but it was effective and versatile. I hope this video does it justice.
Main Sources.
The Skyknight is not very well covered, but there are a couple of good books of note:
Steve Ginter's 'Naval Fighters Number 4: Douglas F3D Skyknight' is typically meandering, but is still a useful source of detailed pictures of the aircraft if you can find a copy.
A more recent and readily available book is Joe Copalman's 'F3D/EF-10 Skyknight Units Of The Korean And Vietnam Wars', which, although lacking a snappy title is a good read
As ever with Douglas products, Rene Francillon's 'McDonnell Douglas Aircraft Since 1920: Volume 1' contains useful background information
My dad flew it in Vietnam. Lost him on Monday.
How sad. Condolances. Prayers for you. Blue skies for him.
Condolences
Condolences and sorry for your loss
Rip.
I'm sorry for your loss
Great video - As a retired EA-6B ECMO, we're used to EW being ignored so it's nice to see attention paid to our roots. .
It's not flashy. Necessary, but not flashy. Just like people who work in supply and maintenance. Not flashy; but good lucky keeping your flashy fighters in the air without fuel, parts, and people to keep the aircraft working.
These videos are better narrated and the clips more relevant than most TV documentaries. Amazing work
I, 100% agree. Great work and video.
I remember when the standard wasn't campy 1905 silent film footage of a chariot race like that was really filmed in Constantinople in 650. Still, comparing these with quality stuff from the good old days like Wings what strikes you is the integrity. On Wings, everything was the bestest ever, but we get a much more honest, three-dimensional view here and all the warts are much appreciated.
I consider the Skyknight as one of the greats. It was built to a specification it met and, in the end, offered flexibility and utility not otherwise available. F3D crews were professionals and held the line with what they had. It was, after all, at the forefront of a combat system that was in its infancy in Korea and did leave a mark when defending the Superfortresses. The fact that it soldiered on in Vietnam broadcasts the need for such an airframe, if even for a stopgap. Thanks for another great, if not overdue, "Not A Pound For Air To Ground" instalment! Semper Fi.
The skyknight is truly an unsung hero, never knew Skyknights soldiered on in Vietnam, let alone for so long and in such an important capacity.
The tail and the wing shape resemble the A1 Douglas Skyraider.
True…family resemblance is there.
Both were designed by the same guy, Ed Heinemann.
Looking at the film clips, there is also a resemblance to the A3D Skywarrior.
Yes the narrator mentions the tail assembly design was based upon the Skyraiders
@@neilturner6749 Indeed, as they say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I absolutely LOVE all the nit-picky bullshit detail you go thru in these vids.
Very, very well done mate.
Thank you!
😎👍
Magnificent video once again. A few things I do wish were touched upon here:
- The Skyknight's nickname "Willie the Whale" is a reference to a 1946 Disney cartoon about a whale that sings opera at The Met.
- Douglas proposed an F3D-3 variant with swept surfaces and uprated engines, but perhaps thankfully for the carrier crews, this was not proceeded with.
- Douglas also proposed a radically upgraded follow-on in the F6D Missileer of 1959 as a fleet defense machine, but considering its subsonic performance in contrast to the F-4 Phantom, it also never got off the drawing board.
In regards to the Missileer, much of its technology (mainly the engines, radar, and missiles) would eventually make its way into the F-14 Tomcat.
If I could have chosen a snappy title for my Skyknight book, it would have been "Heinemann's Hot Dog," but Osprey wouldn't have gone for that.
Solid video. The one minor correction I'd point out is that the concern about the ventral radome on the 'Super Whales' presenting an egress hazard was primarily expressed by an ECMO named J.T. O'Brien. In his book 'Top Secret,' he mentions that raising these concerns made him a bit of a pariah in VMCJ-1, as nobody else was worried about it until his concerns were (according to him) validated through egress testing at the El Centro parachute test range. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything official regarding those tests, so I relied solely on O'Brien's account there.
Also, as far as books on the Whale go, it's a bit hard to find a copy, but Col Wayne Whitten's book 'Silent Heroes' covering the entire history of Marine Corps aerial electronic warfare is a phenomenal reference. J.T. O'Brien's 'Top Secret' is good as well, but more of a personal memoir than a general history. For Korean War stuff, G.G. O'Rourke's 'Night Fighters Over Korea' is not just a great resource for F3D-2 stuff, it's a really good read.
Again, great work. Thanks for shouting out my book in the description.
Great comments, really useful extra info and how bloody nice to see an actual published historian in the comments.
$1.8 million per plane ! The cost of this program was staggering compared to the top naval planes built just a few years before in WW2. The F4U Corsair was $75K, while the F6F Hellcat was only $50K.
Inflation a thing so the cost of an aircraft in a certain date cannot be compared to the cost of a much more modern aircraft at a later date
If it had decent engines and replace the escape hatch with ejection seat then the skynight could have been a more decent aircraft than it already was..
How does this channel not have more subscribers? Excellent content as always.
Another great video about another unsung aircraft of the early Cold War. Thank you so much for covering it's role in Vietnam as the EF-10. I had only read about it in Vietnam, and I doubt anybody could have given it justice like you just did. Thanks.
40:04 No it’s actually FOUR Methuselahs Skyknight, Skyrader,Skytrain and Invader…and ALL of them are Douglas Aircraft
You think the guy who tested the escape hatch shouted "Weeeeeeee!" as he slid down that slide? I like to think so.
My father had a friend who lost his ring finger sliding out the escape slide. His wedding ring caught on some protrusion and took off his finger. My father never wore rings when flying.
I'm sure he shouted *something* as he let go.
Nice job. The Skyknight is also a throwback to a time when DOD procurement was OK with a single aircraft type being part of the force even if it filled a single, very narrow (and niche by the 1960's) role. Rather than the 'one-size-fits-all' doctrine of today.
Your videos are fucking amazing. Keep then coming! I'm waiting for you to do a video on the r-27 and su-15
Oh, the Su-15 will be one worth waiting for.
@@AndrewGivens indeed
Fabulous, just fabulous...... an aircraft that always takes me back to the long, hot, summer of 1983. Memories of a bus ride to Croydon on a day off from my first job to get the Rareplanes vacuform of the Skyknight and a Pucara. Had I but know it I could have taken the shorter ride to Redhill, walked up Redstone Hill and knocked on the door of Gordon Stevens and bought the kits from the great man himself. Returning home I went to sit out by the pond in our back garden, only to see a snake basking in the sunshine, seeing me sid the grass snake slid away, no doubt to the relief of the frogs and newts. Saw the snake a few times over the years, my dad having made the mistake of putting a compost heap not far from the pond! I made the kit, used some markings from the Airfix Banshee and solid Microscale yellow and white decal film (cut using a razor blade, health and safety mehhhh) for the lightning bolts, in the markings of a FAWTULANT Whale. Scratching the Impression of white stencils in the blue paintwork as suggested by Geoff Prentice of Icarus fame from the late lamented Scale Models, back when modelling magazines were useful and not full of pretty pictures of made up kits. Happy Days.
'worked for awhile in an A-7 shop on CV-68 under an aviation fire control aircrewman who flew right seat in Willy the Whales during the 'Nam. He had high praise for them, and Super Connies that he flew too. 'saw a Willy Whale at an airshow in '65 once.
Appreciate your covering the lesser-known types…and your quality of research, writing and delivery. You are approaching my favorite aviation history channel status.
I read somewhere that one Skyknight actually managed to shoot down a target in Korea under radar control alone. I should go back and check that reference.
If any aircraft ever needed a better engine, this one did.
He mentions this just after the twenty-minute mark and again at the twenty two-minute mark
I love your voice, your line delivery, and your writing. You are such an incredible creator. ❤
Yeah
Question: Is that your voice, someone else, or a computer? Just curious.
@@skp788 No, it's his real voice. In early videos, there was a sort of nervousness to his pace of delivery - I'm glad he chose to slow it down and take his time.
And, if you're reading this, please do note that it helps me to digest the facts & content much better at the steadier pace. Fast narration often leaves me wondering what I just heard. Certain channels are absolute villains for this, naming no names.
Also, no way would a computer ever get that wonderful accent. As a Wessex denizen, I appreciate a Southern English accent, from whichever area.
@@AndrewGivens Thank you for the information. I am glad that he is really narrating the videos. I thought it was a real person but then I started thinking (my first mistake) that just maybe computer voice technology/A.I. had advanced to the point that this might not be a real live person doing the narrative. As an American from Ohio, I appreciate your ability to pick apart accents from different parts of England. These videos are outstanding. The subject matter covers a very interesting time in aviation history pointing out both the mistakes and the success along the way. I can't even image the amount of research that goes into a video. If you are reading; THANK YOU!
Youve done some detailed research here..thank you
An excellent account of the Skyknight. Thank you.
We now need a video on Soviet night fighters!
Very informative.
Appreciate your research and your presentation
Thanks for this video. I have heard of the Skynight, but knew very little about it. From what you've said, the Skynight was a overlooked, yet equally important aircraft that did what it was supposed to do, despite all that was against it! It's a tribute to Douglas Aircraft that it designed an airplane that fulfilled it's role as good as it did.
Nice F3D boxart. I still have a 1950s vintage, K&B Allyn, 1/48 scale, F3D Skyknight plastic model built up.
Marines fight with what they have. Saluting the US Marines! o7 Awesome video, great explanations of the dangers involved, thanks!
Thank you, another great mini documentary on a very unique aircraft, please keep it up.
Everytime you said Whale all I could think of was the EA-3B. Got lucky enough to fly in them in the early 80’s.
Excellent. You do a great job telling interesting stories about aircraft I know little or nothing about.
There is a beautifully restored Skyknight in fighter configuration on display in a park in Lakewood, Calif. It is in the gull gray/white paint scheme and has two air to air missiles underwing.
Would the rounds even fuse on the PO2 if it hit the body and wings? lol.. I forgot those things where in Korea.
I was a crew chief on C-141's so I'm also an expert in aircraft everything :) I've never heard of a plane so clapped that it has a 1G limit on it. Is this really because the air frame was so used up or other mitigating issues? Just seems crazy. I'll have to look into this.
Heck the C-141 was so used up during my 8 years I sent many to the bone yard. I was also in the Reserve at WPAFB, the last C-141 wing. Right after I got out I drove down to watch 0177, Hanoi Taxi, land on the museum side.
Took the family to see the plane I used to work on.. standing on the ramp of 0177 I hear a voice say my last name... It was the guy who taught me to do the flight desk ISO inspection when I got to my first base and his family!!! This was totally random.. We where stationed in NJ and randomly meet on the ramp of a C-141 in the Dayton museum... random.
I've always liked this plane. Glad to see someone cover it.
That photo at 9:46 is awesome. Perfectly captures that moment in history.
The C-47 used in Korea saw service in Viet Nam as the AC-47 gunship. The F-9 Cougar was a Korea era fighter which saw service in Viet Nam with the TF-9J forward air controller.
Good point! To be picky though, the Cougar didn't see combat in Korea; that was the straight-wing Panther--
You are correct, sir. The Cougars were being flown by Atlantic fleet squadrons in 1953.
I think it's worth noting that the Invader, Skyraider and Skyknight were all designed by Ed Heinemann at Douglas Aircraft Company.
I'm pretty sure he was on the design team for the C-47 as well.
@@andrewbuckley6571 Now that you mention it, there's a fair bit of resemblance between the Skyknight and Invader!
It would sure suck to have a cold cat. at night in jet without ejection seats. It's hard to believe they used the same system in the A-3.
I don't think it's a coincidence that Ed Heinemann designed all three of the aircraft you mentioned as fighting in Korea and Vietnam.
Much awaited, much appreciated excellent insights as always from you
I think the Sky Night carrying the missiles was to be called the Missileer
Much learned , lives saved , successful aircraft indeed .
The first Douglas Skyknights F3D had a top speed of only 500 mph. But soon improved engines boosted top speed to 565 mph where it remained for the rest of the Skyknight's operational life. Reports on the combat-fueled and loaded F3D indicated its actual top speed was therefore lower at 540 mph.
It was a risky interceptor role considering the Soviet-built MiG-15, powered by non-licensed, pirated British Nene jet engines could achieve a top speed of around 660 mph. But the F3D didn't foolishly challenge the MiG-15 in daylight.
The F3D Skyknight specialized in nighttime ambush interception. One main trick was to hide among the B-29 Superfortress formation so that communist ground radar could not detect the Skyknight. When communist CGI radar vectored MiG-15s to intercept, the communist jets would close in typically between 400 and 500 mph. This was perfect for the Skyknight crew. The MiG-15 pilots were nearly blind in the nighttime inky darkness unless there was a full moon and a clear night sky. That kind of bright night was actually a disadvantage to the Skyknight as they could be seen.
The Skyknight's three on-board radars gave it all the night vision it needed. The pilot and radar operator quickly crept up behind a MiG-15 and cut loose with four, Hispano 20mm cannons. Unlike the F-84 and F-86 Air Force jets' 0.50 caliber machine guns, the F3D's quartet of 20mm cannon was sufficient to blast the MiG-15 apart.
But as in warfare, the enemy soon became cognizant of the threat and adapted accordingly. The F3D Skyknight crews had to in response adapt their own interception tactics. However the B-29 Superfortresses were far safer operating at night than in the daytime where MiG-15s freely bounced the lumbering, obsolescent WW2 heavy bombers.
The Skyknight went on to sterling service over Vietnam, retiring from service just before the end of American involvement in IndoChina.
When I attended USAF Fighter-Lead-In Training at Holloman AFB in late 1980, a couple of these Skyknights were parked on the ramp, I think to support some tests on the White Sands Test Range. I was surprised they were still flying!
This was informative. Thanks for sharing.
THANK YOU! I have been waiting for this, since I first came across your channel. I didn't know that the 'DRUT' (turd spelled backwards) carried cannon in Vietnam, nor that it served as long as it did. As an aside, I can see from the film clips where the A3D Skywarrior may well have been a development of the same basic design--there is a resemblance and the same 'escape' system.
FWIW, I've seen 'Willie the Whale' applied to the Skywarrior.
Douglas did seem to use design concepts across various aircraft of an era. I was surprised to learn about the Skyknight's "escape chute" in the Naval Fighters #4 book, and perhaps less surprised to later learn that the Skywarrior did the same. They both also had an entry hatch in the top of the cockpit. It seems like this was the primary entrance for the F3D, but the A3D had a ladder built into the escape chute, so they could easily enter from ground level. The Kalamazoo air museum has an A3D cockpit section on display where the escape chute can be seen directly, which is certainly novel!
@@SkyhawkSteve That was part of Heineman's genius; blending new and old tech in innovative ways.
ALSO, one nickname for the A3D was 'All 3 Dead'; referring to the escape chute. The B-66 Destroyer, a redesign of the Skywarrior for the USAF did get ejection seats.
A most excellent done video!
Excellently written and presented
I liked the A/C 12 7/8. My first SH-3 squadron we had one designated as 13.9
Brilliant videos, I've been buying books on each of the early us navy jets you've covered
Outstanding! Always the first video I watch on Fridays.
GREAT Details on a little known airplane. Built a model of one some 60 yrs ago (showing my age) Your aviation vids are SUPER!!👍🏽👍🏽
What a fascinating story and wonderfully told. Thumbs up and subbed!
Simply amazing plane. Thanks for sharing
"Willie the Whale" was an interesting transitional aircraft! I have always had an interest in early jet aircraft.
Excellent video, Thanks,
Very good video. Thank you.
Very well presented, very appropriate images and video. Thank you.
Excellent video
One of your best mate.❤❤❤
Amazing channel and narration!
Great video 👍👍
There isn't much content out there about early electronic Warfare and it's evolution I mean to learn more about this fascinating subject I also want to do the learning more about the early evolution of early airborne radar..
When I was in training at Pensacola, there were several of these doing different types of missions. They were ugly and slow but had a purpose. We all worried that we might get assigned to a Skynight squadron upon graduation so it made us study harder. We called it the DRUT which was TURD spelled backward. It was actually the forerunner of the A-6 Intruder. BTW, my studying paid off because I went to an F-4 squadron.
What a cool aircraft! I hope he told you all about it. All the best.
I remember one flying around Eastern Georgia in the '80s. Probably one of Raytheon's.
Great video on an unsung plane and its crews. The fact that it was used by the Marines/Navy was key. Marines have an attitude of using whatever works to get the job done. I have met a few Marines and they have certain qualities.
Another great vid, Thanks! Why do you refer to the Grumman A-6 Intruder as the electric Intruder?
EA-6A's nickname, before the EA-6B entered service and became the Prowler
Got to wonder if the ejection system was designed at a bar counter lol.
The first time I learned about this was in something called cards of knowledge which were a collectible card service that arrived by mail where I would get a couple dozen cards on airplanes
It's still absolutely insane to believe that this marginal night fighter not only managed to shoot down a few mig-15 during Korea but for some weird reason they kept these things around as electronic warfare aircraft during Vietnam
This reaches levels of shit you can't make up.
Very informative-I was familiar with its Korean service, but the latter Vietnam ECM role was new to me.
There is really is no end to the range of planes. Thanks again 📚🇬🇧👏
In series MASH episode had a plane an pilot called BedCheck Carley was a biplane was drop a bomb except at night po2 tactics was used 2WW agents German army
New subscriber excellent video
Mini AWAC system for day
She's not fat. She's just big boned.
I was assigned to K-8 Kunsan AB as an aircraft maintainer during the '70s, '80s, and '90s.😉
Safe to say it was a pioneer in at least two domains
Many years ago the Skyknight earned the nickname Drut.
29:14 VMAQ-2 the Playboys. They flew EA-6B Prowlers in the 80s and 90s, but had to change their logo and nickname due to modern PC thinking. I recognize so many of the Marine squadrons in these videos. 542, the Tigers, became VMA-542 and flew the AV-8B Harrier and are now called VMFA-542 and fly the F-35.
8:51 at that point, Edwards AFB was still named Muroc AFB…
Interesting...I did not even know this plane existed until this video !
There are some interesting pictures of US ARMY marked Skynights based at Holloman AFB NM back in the 1970's that were used for testing at White Sands Missile Range.
Would love to see a video on the Stingray. Seems to Have been totally forgotten by history because it never saw action, but it was a wonderful looking plane! Any chance? :)
Do you mean the F4D-1 Skyray?
@@lancerevell5979 you’re absolutely correct.. I thought something sounded off with ‘stingray’
It's interesting that picture of marine aviators packing submachine guns in addition to their sidearms.
Grumman A-6 Intruder video soon i can almost smell it :D
It turns out that the Skynight did in fact have a few pounds for air to ground
Now, it's electronic warfare descendant was replaced by EA-18G Growler.
This aircraft was the first 1/72 kit I ever made. Can’t recall the manufacturer
How did the Skynight compare to the Meteor night fighter versions?
loving your work, thank you mate
Was in VMCJ-2 (Marines) in 64 when we still flew them. No ejection seats, there was a slide-chute between the pilot and the RIO. Not much use in SAM country.
40:06 and all three of those are Ed Heinemann designs. Coincidence? Or did he just design solid & robust aircraft? FYI, I will advocate for Heinemann and his brilliance every chance I get. Like many of his designs, he doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
About 12 years or so ago, i saw a similar older jet fly past our local airport,which is half civil/ half military. I could not identify it, but it sure looked like this aircraft....were any preserved, or sold to private hands and go to airshows? I doubt even 12 years ago the military still had any of these in service!
The prowler was an amazing aircraft. Too bad it took so long to get in service. The EA-6B (IIRC) was still in service in the 90's. I know i used to see them on the decks of aircraft carriers during that time.
Jet nightfighter? - It looked more like an assassin ❤
I would argue that when you say the F-35 is the second worst aircraft in its disregard for flight performance versus electronics, you are forgetting about the “hopeless diamond” Have Blue and F-117. It was only possible to fly through fly-by-wire technology, and its still awful stability earned it the nickname “the wobblin goblin”.
What an absolutely important plane; that I had not noticed.
Cheers, from Copenhagen, Denmark.
Are you Taff in Exile on the combat flight simulator channel?
If I may suggest: how about a F-87 vs CF-100 comparison?
@notapound >>> Great video...👍