Turning tools: Carbide vs. HSS - Which is better? (Making a wooden mallet)
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- čas přidán 30. 09. 2016
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Rockler carbide turning tools- shrsl.com/?e6w1 - Jak na to + styl
Thank you for this informative video. As a new turner this was very helpful. Without formal training I have recently purchased a set of carbide tools. I have struggled sharpening conventional tools, I keep trying, but your video has been very helpful and encouraging. Again many thanks.
I do look at a few different woodworking sites on CZcams. This is one of my favorites. I trust James Hamilton and his years of experience. He learns and retains his lessons, even the mistakes. I appreciate his humor and his willingness to tutor woodworkers of all experience levels. Thank you Stumpy Nubs for your prodigious sharing and recommendations that bring true joy to working the wood.
A really clear and practical explanation of the pros and cons of each type of tool. Many thanks indeed.
I know this is an old video, but I am just getting into wood turning and this has to be the single best video out there for explaining the differences, advantages / disadvantages of the turning tools. Thank you
One of your most informative videos. Very well laid out and very well explained. Thank you.
Thank you soo much for this information! Your content is so helpful for the average Joe who doesnt have the time or access to local guilds, or schools, or mentors.
Didn't know I had already watched this... So, more comments. You may get a cleaner cut on your project if you use a peeling cut, which is common with the spindle roughing gouge or 'sizing tools'. Start with the bevel too high to cut, and gently lower it until you start to get shavings, pretty much cutting on a tangent. You are plunging straight in with a scraping cut which will leave a rougher surface. You can 'shear scrape' with them as well, which is the cutting edge is at 45 or more degrees to the axis of the wood. This does a better job of slicing. Didn't note before that all of the shafts are round, which you need to work the tool on edge. For bowls, which are side grain, you will get a lot more tear out. On end grain like boxes and goblets, you can get 400 grit surfaces because the fibers are supported during the cut. On the outside, from rim to foot/narrow point. On the inside from the center up and out to the rim.
Excellent summary, unbiased and accurate. Thank you.
Just starting . first time on same lathe. Very helpful!! Thanks!
you are really good at explaining things to all levels of wood workers, very impressive. Thank you
Looking forward to your videos. Love how you keep a sense of humor with everything happening. Would love to come visit your shop and take a tour someday and have a “cold one “ with you. Stay safe and may St. Charles recover quickly...
I learned on HSS tools, I listened to the naysayers regarding carbide tools. I can often start at 220 sanding - just like when I'm using HSS.
James! Thank you so much! Best explanation between the two. I’m going to make my own carbides.
As a novice seeking info about comparing carbide to HSS...your video was very enlightening. Thank you.
Stumpy. An absolutely excellent video. Thank you. Joe Glassford - The Tuxedo Turner
what an excellent review ! prices of replacement tips have plummeted the more the chisels have become popular. I only turn vases and bowls and having never done any turning before I bought a set of Carbon chisels .. absolutely adore them .. they do exactly what I want and I can even sharpen them by hand with a diamond block now... thanks for the vid old chap very good for pointing the HSS diehards towards for an really good impartial review.
Great explanation. Just the info I what I was looking for. Don't have a lathe, never used one, but thinking seriously about it.
Thanks for sharing.
I have a rockler round tipped carbide turning tool and love it.
Once again a great video. Many thanks Alan UK
Great explanations and confirmation of my thinking about cost and utility.
Great info. Thanks for sharing both sides of the argument. I've used HSS since I first got on a lathe in Jr High in about 71 I guess. I have 2 sets of HSS and had been thinking about carbide. Now not so sure. Perhaps one just for roughing it out. Sadly I don't turn a lot but I do have a project coming up (I really need to get started on) Again thanks for both sides.
Answered many of my questions. Thanks
Excellent video!!! Great information!!!
I know its been a while since this video was posted, but I have only just recently got into wood turning. I have been learning on traditional chisels, and they scare me, especially the skew chisel. I will definitely go out and get myself some carbide tools, thanks to this video. I will also however keep practicing with traditional tools. Thanks for the vid :)
As a professional turner, I consider this to be a pretty good explanation of the use of carbide scrapers. You actually know they are scrapers. I don't have any in my arsenal. Only real reason is that there isn't anything they can do that I can't do with my traditional scrapers. Because they are so much smaller than the bigger scrapers that some say are necessary, they are easier for beginners to use. I use scrapers in ways that most have forgotten.... The cupped type of carbide tipped tools, as opposed to the flat type cutters are a whole different animal.
You’ve convinced me - I’ve ordered some carbide chisels 😬
Since I can only work outside in the weather, I can't do as much as I would like, it seems carbide is the way to go. I only have a 5 foot by 4 foot back porch slab of concrete to work on, and if any precipitation begins to fall, I'm done till the weather passes. Not sharpening as much seems like a much better option for myself. Thank you for this earnest review.
excellent overview
Appreciate your perspective on negative rake carbide tools for finish cut.
Excellent video.
Thank you, nice and concise, I have seen a couple of the old hands using the carbine tools and they seem to use them both as a scraper and as something of a shearing tool, angling into the cut. I see most of these done on square bar stock, but a few on round stock. Looks like the Rockler is something of a hybrid. I haven't gone on site to look, but during your video, it appears they are rounded with a squared base. I even saw an old time wood turner complain about the square shaft.
I'm just learning/collecting information. I've mostly played lathe little more than a drill lathe (3/8th 24unf shaft 300 watt or 50's tool) it's been fun doing rings and some pendants, I'll try a simple bic pen conversion tonight or tomorrow (I do have a tap and a drill head for the tailstock) Bought an almost full size lathe 3/4hp Duracraft/Craftsman to play with MT1 head and tail. Should be much more competent saw to learn on. I'll likely make some carbide tools on it and a grinder, drill press and tap... (more fun)
Thank you for making this video, helped me out allot....
James, your videos are always fantastic but this one really stands out. I'm about to get into turning and this one is by far the best explanation to help me decide on my initial set of tools. At the cost, I sure wouldn't want a misstep is selecting the wrong ones. Many thanks.
Thanks for the info. Just what I was looking for.
Very informative! Thanks.
This was very helpful. I just received a carbide insert and will be making a tool. I see the carbide as a hogging tool.
Think about buying Rikon 4 piece set. I like the way you the snap changing rod is so cool. Thank you for a great video.
This is the best overview of carbide tools I have seen. Very helpful, gonna give em a try :-)
Just popped my carbide cherry today. I like em
A well presented video as always from Stumpy Nubs. I've been tossing up whether to get some carbide tools - you've just convinced me that I should.
Oh, and you presented well rounded debate. Good job. My opinion is I turn to much for them to be financially viable. Only takes 20 seconds to resharpen ( and yes, I use a jig).
Yes, you have to take the time to sharpen with traditional. But like you said....it only takes seconds. My mentor taught me that you should be stopping every so often to check the work anyway. Sharpen at that time, especially if the grinder is right next to you.
But I do like my carbides though.....it got me started.
Thanks that did help a lot I'm a beginner Turner
Great video. I’ve been debating which way to go. HSS or carbide. I️ think the answer is definitely both. The argument does remind me of sharpening with stones or sand paper. Initial up front cost/versus long term sand paper cost.
Great video
Things have changed in the carbide world since this video was made. Most sellers of carbide will show you how to ride the bevel and shear cut with Carbide cutters. You can get a great finish with carbide cutters
Thanks for the info. I've just started turning and have invested some $, time, and wood learning to use them. Im at TH point where I can do the outside of a hollow form without inventing to many new foreign words...but the inside? Oh boy! I can see carbide helping me out there.
I just walked up to a lathe with HSS and started cutting! I am amazed I didn't get injured but i figured it out eventually. (edit: I did break a 5/8 cast iron rest post )
honesty without attitude ..... damn right
Yet another great video
Simple, unpretentious, helpful, thank you
Andy scott I would have to agree with you.
I turn more days than not and probably use carbide tools about 20% of the time. It takes very little time to resharpen steel tools with the jigs they make today. It is also very easy and quick to sharpen carbide with a diamond credit card. I find they both have a place for my type of turning projects and wouldn’t want to do without either.
I use a cheap diamond nail file to resharpen my carbides, it works perfectly.
Great video and info thanks 👍
Fabulous background to your vid and a very well balanced, reasoned and objective appraisal of carbide vs HSS. I guess there's one other thought for the newbie: You might just want to learn to become as skilled in the old fashioned ways!
Gosh after watching this I am regretting my order of a basic set of steel cutters, I might have to return them. . . I am relatively new, this was really informative. Thank you!
I use both types of tools. I have had carbide blades shatter when trying to rough down square pieces. Not so much if the edges are trimmed to octagon . I use a roughing gouge when there are sharp corners or lots of variation in the piece that might slam into the carbide blade and break it.
super informative !
Well done . I do have a question how do you like the central machine lathe
You told audience carbide is used horizontal to lathe. That's correct, but only at one tool rest height. If beginner, target for these, has rest a bit high that introduces a positive cutting angle not a negative scraping. Positive could result in a catch if it grabs. Better to explain it as parrellel to the centerline of blank or slightly below for safety sake.
While I do see your point about tool rest height affecting the cut, I have never had a carbide tool "catch" like a HSS one. There simply isn't an edge to dig into the fibers. However, if the rest is too high or too low, it will not cut well unless you angle the tool upward to compensate. Thanks to the input. :)
Stumpy Nubs it'll catch, just not like a skew or gouge which have an angle. Perhaps dig is a term better suited just not used in craft. A scraping catch is more like a split as the blade dives in thus wedging fibers apart. Or if bad enough (dig in a knot) could pull tool from hand. Gotta avoid positive angles when scraping.
Damm! So informative and useful. Thank you so much!
There are now available some cheap tool only options on amazon that allow you the practice of turning your own handle. In conjunction with a decent set of HSS tools (even though they tell you to get them individually) that gives you the ability to rough with the carbide and finish with the gouges, saving you time sanding. With a benjamins best set and a couple of carbide tools (I didn't bother with the diamond cutter, a skew is absurdly easy to sharpen, and just as easy to use.)
great video! Thank you for your time sir. I am doing my research before buying my first lathe. I truly enjoyed wood turning through high school many many years ago and looking forward to getting back into it. Subscribed and liked.
I think you should use a combination of the two
Use both types, to be honest prefer the Skew for most but carbide really good for resins, for sharpening I use a Robert Sorby system. Takes up little space compared to wheel based systems. All personal choice (although jigs are expensive). Cracking informative video as per the norm. Carbide cutters easily sharpened on a diamond slip with lapping fluid.
I loved this video. As a beginning turner, I bought carbide tools, and that was the right decision for me. What I learned from your video is that eventually I will probably want to learn how to use steel tools, but I will move into their use slowly and learn carefully before making the plunge.
bravo, grazie 👍
Well, there goes my excuse for not getting into woodturning. I guess I can try it now.
Great video and thank you SO MUCH for this! Looking at a good set of chisels so this helped more than you know :) Go WINGS lol 😂
I just bought Rockler mini carbide turning tools today. I make a lot of pens, and one reason I bought them was to reduce the blow out on epoxy blanks with HSS tools, and the sharpening. One question I have, is the carbide tips have four sides (for the rounding tip). You can rotate that to use four times before sharpening, right?
Yes, you can rotate it four times. Most people replace the cutter after that. But you can rub it on a diamond card to sharpen it.
Are they real expensive...? I think I will buy a set since I am a beginning turner and that way I can judge for myself from the beginning and not knowing the difference with other tools. I will still probably slice off a finger or two anyway!
Everything said here except the time between sharpenings and cost could have been said about HSS scrapers, with HSS scrapers being much cheaper! I consider the skills required by turning a positive, not something to be avoided, but if what you use the lathe for is a few spindles, or mallets per year, then definitely buy a few HSS scrapers and some sandpaper.
Hi James. Enjoyed this video. Could you tell me if inserts fit all makes of handle/tool? I don't want to end up buying a tool that I cannot get inserts for you see.
I would posit to say that not all inserts fit all handles/cutters. There are different sizes. Determine what size you have, search for those replacements. The set screws are also different sizes, so, buyer beware.
i like the carbide tipped tools so easy to use and they do a wonderful job
Awesome video. I tend to use a large HS gouge for roughing, carbide for shaping, and HS for finishing. I am a novice turner, but this method makes me the most comfortable. I heard rubbing a carbide blade top down on high grit sandpaper can refresh the edge many times over...anyone tried that.
I've done it on a credit-card sized diamond stone. 600 grit works best.
Great overview of the differences, I have both sets, but I'm kinda green at turning, working on some spalted bowls, I'm gonna go with the carbides and see how it works out.. thanks for the video, very clear and 'sharp'.
Hey James, Can you re-post a valid link to Rockler's carbide tools you demonstrated in this video. Apparently the link you used is now dead. Thx.
When I was turning a lot (2-4 times a week) I had a good feel for my various gouges. Now that I'm lucky to get on the lathe once a month or so, I find that carbide tools take a lot of the stress and 'relearning' out of the equation. And for what it's worth, I have no qualms about using a "150 skew" to make that last couple of passes to smooth things out. :) Love your channel.
great video stumpy, now what do i do with my wolverine sharpening system :)
There's still a place for HSS, even if you use carbide. So hold onto your Wolverine.
Once you figure out that it's easy to re-sharpen your carbide bits, the initial investment in purchasing a set of carbide tools becomes negligible.
Buy whichever carbide tool set you like, as long as the carbide bits on them are replaceable. Also invest in a simple diamond faced sharpening plate (get a flat one, not one with little cutouts in it). I would suggest a 400/600 grit double sided diamond faced sharpening plate from someplace like Global Tools (it cost me under 5 bucks .... I got two so that my sister could steal one without remorse).
Once all the edges on your bit wear down and you would like to refresh it, take it off the tool handle (keep the screw someplace safe), and lay the bit upside down on the diamond grit plate (use the 600 grit side .... sharp smooth edges and a nice matte finish are what you want to see when it's done). Use some rubbing alcohol or mildly soapy water (dont let the sharpening plate stay wet - it will rust!) and it should take less than 30 seconds to bring the edges back to near-factory condition.
You could also take this a few steps further, and invest in a diamond faced wheel (with a diamond faced plate on the outside) for your lathe ..... In fact, I simply bought a 1000 grit diamond grit lap disc 6 inches wide and turned a 6-inch wooden base to mount it on my lathe with ... variable speed lapping disc! I use this to dress and re-shape the edges of my carbide bits, and it also makes sharpening them a 10-second chore...
If you have the diamond faced wheel, you can use this to easily grind and re-shape any of your tools, carbide or not.
Prior to buying any carbide hand tools you might want to see what the cost of replacement cutters are. Rockler replacement cutters are some of the most expensive in the market today
Captain Eddie has some genuine bargains. 👍
Do you still get catches with Carbide tools? I thought about getting one for tricky spots because I figured you wouldn't have to worry about it with the carbide edge, but I noticed you didn't mention that so maybe you do still get them form time to time? I have the same lathe as you btw, I picked it up a few months ago and I really enjoy it. I have made enough tool handles for centuries, and enough crappily made small bowls for several dogs :D
I did mention it in the video. Carbide tools are far less likely to catch, in my experience. And when they do, the result is much less violent than what can happen with HSS.
Oh, ok sorry about that.
Yes you can get a catch with carbide.
The big question fro me, there are very limited profiles for carbide turning tools. How much or different cuts can those limited profiles do? Can a set of 4 carbide tools replace many traditional tools? That is a puzzling part of choosing which type to go with.
Yes, carbide tools can definitely replace a bevy of “specialized” steel tools. 4 carbide tools can make you a pretty darn good hobbyist turner. Beginner wood turners with old dull steel tools become frustrated - catches, goofs, unfinished projects = disappointment. New sharp carbon tools really help beginners gain confidence & enables nice looking things. Bowls, Christmas ornaments, tea lights, mallets, etc are fun to turn.
I guess your info is old. You can easily shear cut with a carbide just by rotating the tool to a 45 or so degree angle. Plus it is also easy to sharpen them. You almost never need to replace them. I use them and have to do very little sharpening.
Is that the mini set that you're using or the full sized?
Full sized
Nice video. I'm still on the fence about this. The debate reminds me a lot of one that goes on in the fly-tying (for fly fishing) community. Many people insist that flies should be constructed with traditional materials only. Others take advantage of the many synthetic materials available. Who catches more fish? Who knows!
It's not about that; though traditional techniques certainly produce more beautiful flies (tho who knows what fish like?). Scrapers are inferior to gouges for cuts gouges perform better (most cuts). Carbide tools are dumbing-down turning. If that brings more turners, maybe that's to the good, but it brings down the skills of the community.
I never ask what type of fly was used to catch the beautiful rainbow trout, sizzling in hot butter, on my plate. Results matter.
I’m sure when electricity came about & used on motors in lathes, there were purists who poo poo’d the idea. Preferred foot-powered lathes. Times change, technology & materials change. Always good to move forward, using foundational skills too.
Carbide is used on steel because of the heat resistance of carbide. From what I've seen steel separates ahead of the tool and the heat generated from the separation along with friction doesn't affect the carbide so the part can be turned faster. I'm not sure how wood cuts, but there are good and bad hi speed steels. a good quality h.s.s. bit will hold an edge a long time.
I don't believe in the notion, that traditional turning tools have a significantly higher learning curve than the carbide tools.
I started out with traditional turning tools & took to turning in just a few hours, without instruction.
It doesn't take long to find where to ride the bevel.
I have a great method for sharpening my flat steel tools that involves no sparks. I dont like grinders that yield sparks. If I buy a wet grinder and the jigs that cost can reach more than I would pay for a midi lathe, better than average headstock chuck and one carbide tip roughing gouge. I heard about carbide turning tools being scrapers, requiring additional sanding. I use scrapers on my flat wood projects to get a nice surface. I dont understand the fuss the purist turners make about high speed steel turning tools. I gave up hss router bits when I was a teenager and I dont miss them. I am 68.
Can I use diamond shaped carbide inserts using a bit holder in a CNC wood lathe machine? People who has experimented could you please elobrate.Are the Carbide bits same for wood and iron lathe?Cheers
I tried to use inserts for iron on wood, but it didn't work. Bad angle on the insert. You need 30-45 degrees not 80-90 like for steel. Maybe if you raise a handle a very high ("worked" with detailer insert) or screw the insert on the tool under some angle but definitely not flat . ... I also tried to use insert for aluminium, it started to work but these inserts are not flat on the top (like scrapers) and there was a big chance to get a catch if you raise a handle too high. only with very soft approach it was safe to use it. But it was cutting not scraping... I am beginner maybe I was doing something wrong.
What type of tool holders you used for your experiments ? Did you try the detail inserts by A-Zcarbide , EasyWood Tools etc which are specifically manufactures for wood use ? I saw in some Chinese mini lathe videos where they use inserts similar to Diamond Shaped Detail one in a angle holder. Unfortunately can't find further information.
I believe hss is better at hollowing out bowls and end grain i also belive that hss leaves a better finish depending on the tool used they are also a lot cheaper and have a greater variety of things you can do
Great work. Beautiful tool. You made me nervous when reaching over the table saw blade.
Hey Stumpy! That link to the carbide tools on Rockler isn't working anymore. I like to buy things through your affiliate links when I can, but I can't now!
They don't have an affiliate program anymore. Just get them directly from Rockler.com. Thanks for the support!
Go Wings!!
I personally don’t like carbide knowing you don’t get a good finish with them but also I haven’t been turning long so I could never really use carbide tips to like them all he time when bowl turning
what's up with the 5 minutes of dead air at the end of the video? editing mistake or does it serve some function?
Editing mistake. It's fixed now.
But.... the most common phrase I hear traditional tool makers say after turning with the skew etc is... "and now a finish pass with the scraper to clean up the tool marks".
I have never seen someone who can properly use a wood turning skew follow it up with a scraper. I have seen plenty of turners go from a gouge to a scraper because, either it's a concave surface (like inside a bowl) or because they can't master the skew.
I spent my income tax on a lathe, was supposed to come with a set of gouges and skews, but they werent included. Could only afford a cheap 20 dollar harbor freight set that dont cut very well. Now i need a good set, and a band saw or table saw
Did you sharpen them? Even a Harbor Freight set will cut well enough if you sharpen them. They just won't stay sharp very long.
I just want to address the cost saving argument for these tools. I found carbide turning tools to be much more expensive to upkeep than high speed steel. Of all of my turning (and associated sharpening equipment), I have spent the most money on carbide cutter inserts. I turn a lot of pieces every year, and used easy wood tools for a while, but found I was paying more than the cost of the tool every year in inserts. I picked up a slow speed sharpener and have never looked back. I do recommend them for anyone that wants an "easy" tool to use, that's the only upside.
Carbide can be resharpened with an in expensive diamond wheel. Some times the edge is better than original. A small diamond hone can quickly put an even better edge on carbide by smoothing the tiny grinder lines in both carbide and hi-speed steel. If you are using pressed carbide you might try polished.
Hey Stumpy, the affiliate link to Rockler is broken. I went to go shopping to support you, but it redirects to a page saying that you aren't promoting that program, anymore.
Rockler no longer gives affiliate credit. But thanks for trying to support us :)
Nice video. On small mistake. HHS and carbide tool are New tools to the wood turning world. High Carbon Steel tool are what everyone used up to the last 20 yrs. You make it sound like HHS has been around for ever, In the wood working world HHS did not come around until the 80's High Carbon has been here since day one. and Most of my tools are still High Carbon... But none the less good video. Thanks....
HSS has been common for near 40 years. That may not seem long ago to you, but it's been quite some time. :)
@@StumpyNubs thats sort of what he said, the 80s were near 40 years ago. you will be surprised how fast it goes. I turned in the 70s, recently got my old tools out and started re-learning. I dont have any new tools. Was not until recently aware the new ones are different but still not sure what the difference really means. your videos are good, thanks for making them.
Don't be lazy and learn both , there are tips and tricks all over the net that will help , from building your own carbide tools to using a harbor freight grinder .