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Why I'm Clearing Cedar Trees | Dream Farm w/ Bill Winke
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- čas přidán 12. 08. 2024
- I have several large groves of cedar trees on the new farm and while a few pockets of cedars can be valuable wintering areas, large mature thickets are of little value to any of the wildlife on this property. I would love to see these bluffs holding more ruffed grouse like I grew up hunting and feeding and housing more whitetails. The first step toward that goal is getting rid of the cedar trees. In this episode, I meet with Private Lands Biologist, Greg Schmitt, to learn ways to turn these areas into great wildlife cover. Hey, you paid for every acre, so every acre may as well produce something of value. Time to get to work!
I appreciated the advice from Greg Schmitt. It was practical advice that will require a lot of sweat equity. I especially appreciated his recommendation to establish a plan.
Great vid, Bill! Land management/habitat management goes hand-in-hand with wildlife management. Glad you’ll be doing more of this subject matter!
Thanks Patrick. I appreciate it. We will try to get an episode out every week. Have a great day.
I've got a small farm with several large cedar patches. I declared war on them and have found that my tractor with a grapple on the front paired with a chain saw are a great combination. You can pile them and burn them at a place of your choosing. Most of the ground under the cedars is very acidic with a ph in the low to mid 4's. Burning them in these places helps to offset that and gives you "green spots" where you burn.
Great advice John. Thanks and good job on making the project pay off. Have a great day.
Really enjoyed the episode. I’m working my way through a mess on my property left from past timber practices. Love the land and habitat management content. It’s very helpful and entertaining. 👍👍
Thanks Landwrecked. I think the series will be a bunch of fun. I am looking forward to producing it. Have a great day.
Hey Bill! Great segment, have a ton of folks here in SE Iowa doing the same thing with the Brush Management practice through the EQIP C/S program! Planted a ton of Red cedar when I worked in north central Iowa for winter habitat for pheasant, now we chop and drop them by the thousands here in SE Iowa! Miss our farm visits together, but you are in good hands with Schmitty......I tutored him years ago!!!
Thanks Kevin, I appreciate the comment and all the work you put into helping me with the southern Iowa farm. We sure put a lot of practices into place there over the years! One man's garbage is another man's treasure - those guys looking for winter cover for pheasants can sure have all the cedars they can carry off my new farm! Have a great day and stay in touch.
I am glad to see a big name in the whitetail industry doing habitat restoration! I have the same red cedar and invasives problem on one of the properties I hunt and it is a chore to clear them out but totally worth it! I work on bluffs in the driftless area for a living doing native habitat restoration and I promise that the end result is worth the work.
Thanks Ty. I am looking forward to seeing what it turns into once I get all the work done. Have a great day and thanks for the support.
When I was in my twenties we logged cedar in norther Arkansas and Southern Mo. - cedar logs were and still are a source of income for many in the Ozarks - lots of family owned mills. It was the same in Mo., they used to graze sheep and burn on the hills but when they stopped the cedar took over, the glade country is covered with cedar. On WMA lands at home it gets cut and burned just like you will be doing to create Savannah habitat. I’ve seen deer eat cedar but not very often. In Mo. someone would pay you to let them come in and log off your cedar. The logs can be as small as 5-6” across on the top end of a 52” log. I’ve cut single trees that made 6 52” log ( they called it “Pencil Cedar” because it was used to make pencils back in the day). Most all red ( aromatic) cedar is cut into 4-5” slabs as wide as the log will make then shipped to China🙄to be processed into closet lining. I’ve got several photos of cutting and milling years ago. I got my first and only concussion ( and fractured back) while logging cedar. Getting knocked out is the only way to go- never felt a thing😂 Be safe and good luck!! ( BTW it was a smaller tree that knocked me out - be careful out there!!)
Good point about safety, Jay. It is easy to go too fast and not really look at what might be hanging the tree and what might make it twist, etc. I am not very experienced, so I have to go really slow. Thanks for all the insight. I like them in certain places when they are young, but when they reach maturity and are crowded together, they lose any real benefit for most wildlife. Have a great day.
Keep in mind that you will want clean face cuts, no hinges. It will take longer for the tree to die and dry. Also just out of curisoty as a landowner know knowing the amount of work and time that goes into habitat management and the long process, how much would you contract an individual or group to do work for you?
Thanks for the input. Makes sense. Ideally, you contract it all. I did that in southern Iowa - I never ran a chain saw in 700+ acres of TSI, but there was a crew there that really mowed them down. In the area I am at now, I have been told by the foresters and biologists that I have talked with that the local crews want small jobs and are booked well in advance. I am still looking for options. Most of this kind of work will fit into a program that receives cost share from the NRCS, (EQUIP is the one with the most funding right now) so the out of pocket in hiring a crew is not great after the cost share.
I totally enjoyed watching you guys, as you put your cedar habitat plan together with its struggles and complexities outlined. It is a "Dream Farm" in the making. Best of luck! Cris
Thanks Cris. This farm is going to to be a ton of work because of the need to remove any invasives before really opening things up and the fact that there is so much timber on the steep slopes. This will be a multi-year project for sure. Thanks for the support.
Good episode, Bill. The problem with cedar as you probably know, it that even after you burn it, the skeleton's remain. In some cases a dead cedar log in the woods can last decades.
awesome, love the land management vids wish ya could do as many as possible!
Thanks Christian. We will do at least one a week for a while. I want to talk about buying land too, with the hope of inspiring more people to get started with that kind of investment. I started buying land as soon as I could (back in 1995), but I wish I had known then what I know now.
I live in the Ozarks close to Dr. Grant Woods, so have steep hills with lots of cedars. I did what he does, which is cut them down, then send prescribed fire through the following spring. It burns them up very nicely.
Yes, after talking with the biologist and looking at some of Grant's stuff, that is my current plan. Now I just need to figure out how to get a bunch of them on the ground! Thanks for the input. Have a great day.
Pumped about this new Dream Farm Series. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and helping me improve habitat and better hunt deer!
Thanks Rye. I appreciate the support. Have a great day.
Gonna be a great series and I’m genuinely looking forward to it!! Just make sure Ethan does his fair share of work😂 !!
I need to abduct Ethan and start an indentured servant camp out there at the farm so I can get some of this stuff done!
I’m in for whatever whitetail work is required. So no need for abduction Bill!
Maybe I should abduct him to pack all my elk out for me ..
Looking forward to the series! Have you thought about hiring a feller buncher for the big stuff and maybe a skid steer with a mulcher for the small stuff? Also here there is a market for some of the larger cedar.
There might be a market here. I am having another guy check, but if there is it is not a well known one because I am not finding much information. It is too steep to cut with machines. In a lot of spots it is 45 degrees or steeper. Have a great day.
Dream Big brother 🙏
I know here in Ky there’s a lot of people wanting cedar posts for fencing. To the point they would drag alot of that into a pile and cut. Prescribed fire is the best option here but much work Bill. I would double up on fire breaks and get a larger crew out there. Getting away from the hood oaks may be challenging but very doable. Tnx Bill
I have come to that conclusion. As much as I don't like fire, I have to do it. I will start small in the more open timbered areas and see what I can learn prior to next year when I would take on that cedar burn - those dead trees will really burn hot. Good input.
Awesome information Bill. Great video!
Thanks Eric. I appreciate it. Have a great day.
Very interesting here in Midwestern Ontario to northern Ontario if you don't have ciders you want have a deer on your farm from mid to late November on they only yard up in huge cider bushes. No matter the food source
Yes, it is different there because of the fact that the deer yard up. There isn't any yarding here in my part of the world, at least not most years. I guess if it gets extreme enough they might yard, but it is often in the bluffs near open water and then only for short periods of time. I saw this a lot more when I was a kid than what I see now. I think we just had more snow back then and that pushed them into the valleys for the winter.
That's white cedar. Totally different species.
Cedars are my favorite tree to hunt out of. Easy to climb and great cover once you’re in your stand. The only downside is that you can’t shoot behind you unless you really open it up, which defeats the purpose of hunting out of the cedar in the first place.
Totally agree with that. I like them for that too. They also made perfect gun hunting stands for our kids growing up since there were plenty of branches to rest the gun on for a steady aim. I will keep some for sure. I just need to reclaim as many of those acres for productive habitat as possible.
You definitely have your hands full Bill. Drone sure shows a whole lot of cedar
Colin, it is a ton of cedars. I seriously doubt that I get them all. My goal is to get at least half.
Lots of good looking cedar fence posts there
Come and get 'em Tony! I suppose I can find someone here that wants those trees, but it is going to be hard to find anyone what will go up on those slopes and snake them out. I think that is the real problem.
I'm battling cedars here in KY. I have started making rabbit habitat with the cut cedars. I criss cross the pole sections, then cover with the limb debris. Kinda place them out strategic, then burn piles as I can. Good luck on your project. It is a neverending project for me.
Thanks David. I fear it will not end here either. I spent about four or five hours cutting and during that time I dropped, but didn't remove maybe 50 to 60 trees. That's about 10 to 15 trees per hour. At that rate I figure I will be 79 years old when I cut the last one down. I am being sarcastic, of course, but it is a huge, huge job just to open up 10 to 15 acres. My guess is that I will work on the fringes where there is some oak to regenerate and then just work that edge in a bit every year until the cedars are more or less gone. Man, what a huge job.
Great video Bill. I can't wait to see the spring burns video.
It will be interesting to see how those perform. I need to learn a lot more about best time to burn based on humidity, etc. Have a great day.
Bill you should do a collaboration with whitetail habitat solutions where you he and the young guy in the dream farm series analyze5 or so properties from 50-200 acres talking ab potential management practices and hunting setup
I did analyze a couple in the Bowhunting Whitetails series (one in KS and one in IN). I need to do a small one. Maybe if Ethan buys one, we can do an analysis of that. That would be fun.
I'm looking forward to this series. I appreciate you sharing the thought process that goes into your improvements. Nice to see the before and after shots, and I hope we get to see the fruits of your labor during next year's hunting season.
Thanks Zeb. It will be a long process so there should be tons of content to share along the way. Have a great day.
I enjoyed the episode, Bill.
Thanks bealsprings. I really appreciate the support. Have a great day.
Enjoying this. Some places where I hunt, the cedars are such a magnet for bedding that the nearby fields are deer magnets and great stand sites. Seeing some of the downed cedars and the beautiful color of the wood, I wondered if any local woodworkers might want the wood. Still, I'm sure they will be hard to remove once cut down....
In my area I can’t GIVE my cedars away!
Same here Lonnie. Everyone has tons of cedars on their farms here. They filled in the old open ground as the biologist stated. I have some big trees. I should keep a few of the better logs and have them custom cut into boards that I could use for making tables, desks, etc.
I live in the most cedar dense area in the world and the only thing deer use cedar thickets for is horizontal travel corridors
Amen. I don't see much use under those thick areas. Scattered cedars and even small pockets are good, but big, mature stands are not good.
Two things! When walking with that saw even a little bit lock that bar push your hand forward and lock it when u get to the tree needing cutting then unlock easy step might save problems later.
And a small mini excavator with a thumb will do amazing things on that slope I have used mine to do the same just a thought
Looks great
Thanks Frank. I think that slope is steeper than it looks. I am sure no one would be able to get an equipment up in there. To get logs out of that country when selling commercially, the logger have to use long cables. That may be the best way to clear out an area, hire a logger to come and skid them out with his cable system.
@@bill-winke got you good luck be safe doing it
Great video Bill, and advice.
Thanks Mitchell. I appreciate it.
In Oklahoma they grow like rabbits overnight and our little red cedars they say they suck up a lot of water
A few pockets here and there are fine, probably even good, but when they take over, nothing resembling forage or browse will grow in their shade. I am cutting down most of them on this farm to allow space for other things to grow in that deer and other wildlife can better utilize.
I ordered a small stihl 194 rear handle saw not the top handle for doing tsi that I really like. Has good power and a light saw to carry around. Have cut a lot of elm and iron woods out of my woods in se mn
I searched it online. That looks like a great saw.
Mr. Winke, In my experience you will want to make sure and treat the stumps with something like Tordon. Have seen them grow back considerably from the stumps if not treated.
Supposedly, if you cut a cedar off below the lowest green branch it will die. Read that in my research and both the biologist and the district forester said that also.
Winke Wonderland! That’s the series name……😁
I like that Robert. I may have to reconsider my "Dream Farm" name.
Very Informative Episode!
Thanks Keith. I appreciate the support. Have a great day.
Bill I can tell you’re chomping at the bit to get those pines out. 😂
Yes, it will look so much different after most of them are gone. I have visited some sites where they have done this in my region and they really transform. You get some really nice habitat both for deer and for ruffed grouse.
great video thanks for sharing it . we are working here in georgia on privet hedge its out of control
I have heard that stuff is really bad. I am glad we don't have it in the Midwest. About the worst invasive here to deal with is the bush honeysuckle and fortunately, this farm doesn't have hardly any of that.
If you do get a negative response from any invasives in the understory, the higher grades, we spray from the air in the Fall, food for thought.
Yes, I am not sure that barberry will respond to that as it seems to turn dormant along with the other low lying foliage. Bush Honeysuckle was one that we used to spray for in the fall, but fortunately I don't seem to have much of that. I think the only way I am going to get the Japanese barberry and the prickly ash is to burn for at least two straight years. Good input. Have a great day.
Partridge feed on cedar buds in winter, provide excellent thermal cover, cover from depredation for deer and birds, and nesting bird habitat. I would proceed with extreme caution and very little if any cutting. Looking at the aerial video it looks like you have plenty of open canopy habitat. IMHO
Jack, I don't like them. They have to go. The biologist reaffirmed my feelings that a mature (the key is mature) forest of cedar serves almost no good purpose. That is what I see when I walk through these areas. No food, no ground level cover and tons of shade that prevents either from ever happening there. Sunlight to the ground is the key to hitting the reset on habitat like this.
Deer love cedars even when they get bigger. They bed under them, the bucks like rubbing on them, and they eat the green off of them. Just my opinion what I've seen I would love to have cedars on my property.
Jason, you can sure have mine. I have not seen any of those behaviors here. They do use the younger trees for cover as long as they are interspersed into other cover types. Maybe they bed under a single cedar tree, but not those thick groves of them. Also, they only eat cedars here if there is nothing else. On Midwest properties, if the deer are eating cedars that is a very bad sign indicating way too many deer for the carrying capacity of that land.
Thanks again for sharing the knowledge Bill! You’ll be forever young and fit doing that cedar removal workout! Is there a way that the downed cedars can be placed where deer are forced to travel to your benefit during the season, or maybe used to make natural blinds? Also, regarding more help, you could tap into local schools or universities where students going into Forestry education could achieve credit for real experience.Thanks again.
That will be a good workout. I don't mind the work - kind of enjoy it - but it will take me forever on this job if I don't come up with some help. Thanks for the insight and the support.
Man I'd love to come in and help you do that, sounds crazy but I love doing that kind of work, it's almost therapeutic for me.
I would not worry about pulling the cut cedars off the ridge. Let the cut trees sit for 1-2 yrs. They help to provide structure and protect new growth from over browsing. After a couple of years run a fire through them and that hill side should pop with natural growth.
100% agree. That is the conclusion I came to. I have seen the tops on my TSI projects serve as sanctuaries for the new growth where outside of those tops the deer eat the new growth before it establishes. Good insight.
I like this idea as well, our logger left a lot of "tops" and we really appreciated the extra cover and protects new growth coming up. A fire following seems like a great idea.
@@bill-winke Thank you. I've throughly enjoyed this series this past fall. Keep up the good work.
Where I’ve seen people leave cedar tops in WV they get mostly invasives due to birds still nesting and roosting in the tops even on the ground. Birds poop out a lot of seeds. Maybe you’ll have better luck if you follow up with fire we can’t use fire here.
Fire, man I want to learn this practice!
Agreed. We will learn it together then.
@@bill-winke I’m in
225 Timber Jack cable skidder would come in handy!
Yes, it really would. I would love to drag them out. Maybe it is worth finding a local logger who has a couple of free days that I can hire. Very good suggestion.
And a pair of Hoffman boots calked pac boots
good stuff, gotta put in the work and possible fire :)
I think you are right. I think fire is the real key to pulling this off. Have a great day.
Any values in cedars for lumber might look into that Bill
I have asked around and even the biologist said there is no local market. I am sure someone would take them, but not anyone local to that area.
Do they have any value to furniture makers? Maybe sell/give them away if exchange for cutting and removing.
I think I would get select cuts and use logging rd as a fire break
Again, as I pointed out to another guy, logging roads aren't allowed any more in this country due to the Bluff Land Protection Act. People probably still do it because these old farmers around here are very independent, but I don't want to cut any more roads into these hills. I think the leaf blower method will work. That worked well on the farm in southern Iowa in the area with Jesse Randle's people demonstrated it.
@@bill-winke can u use a forestry mulcher? Or a skid steer.
Bill could you do a hack and squirt like here in West Tn? It would be a lot easier on you.
Clay, you sure could but those cedar trees would still produce a lot of shade even if they are dead if you leave them standing. I am sure I could burn them standing but that really sounds like it scare the crap out of me.
@@bill-winke yeah that could be a 30’ flame. We used to burn our farm off yearly. Our fields away got out of hand. I could imagine cedars could freak you out. Good luck.
Bill, is there anyone in the area with draft horses or miles? I only ask this as there are still some guys who do special logging with miles and horses around my area in Alabama. They would definitely be useful in getting the downed trees off the slopes.
Mules....not miles (I really despise this word insert on the "Smart" phones).
I agree. I would definitely be happy to have that solution. Another viewer recommended a logger with a skidder having a long cable. I like both options better than leaving them in those areas where they are super thick and super tall. That whole area will just be a 12 foot tall brush pile when I am done with it.
It would make one heck of a fire for sure!
cedar is worth a lot of money. cedar 4x4, cedar decking or boards. what about letting a logger cut it for free if they can have 100% of the timber value. I've talked with fishing guides in Arkansas and they cut cedar on the side. is that an option?
No one seems to want to pay for it. Just keep in mind that is really limby and knotty stuff. I am sure that is much harder to move than nice clean boards. I wish someone in my area would show an interest, but I have asked a lot of people and no one has heard of anyone paying for these type of cedar trees (eastern red cedar). Good idea though! Have a great day.
@@bill-winke my cousin is a logger in eastern Iowa. I’ll ask him if he knows of anyone that might be interested. Long shot maybe but if he does I’ll let you know. As always. Thanks for the content
Interested to see how this project progresses and am only a short drive away if you need another saw and body to cut cedars for a weekend! Do you think thermal cover is needed with conifers or will deer bed by quality food sources in late season?
Alex, I appreciate it, but I would not impose in that way. I do think some thermal cover is probably OK, but as I look for beds in the snow, I find most of them (nearly all) right at the tops of the ridges and very few in the cedar trees themselves. Not saying they don't use them, but they sure don't use them much. I think a few pockets of smaller cedars where the sun can hit the tree and the ground nearby would be useful for that, but not these big mature stands.
@@bill-winke thanks for the feedback! Can't really recall tons of conifers on the Southern Iowa farm and that seemed to hold deer well too. We are all excited to see how good you make this farm while learning from your experience!!
Bill, what happens to the native seed bank in the areas where you pile cedars and burn? Would the high heat destroy the natural seed bank regeneration?
I don't know. Maybe right in that spot. I am no expert on that stuff, for sure. I don't think I will pile them, however. In fact, there is no way I will pile them. Way too much work. Just getting them cut down in that country is enough work for me! Fire burning through will have to consume those dead trees on the ground.
Bill, I bet Jared Mills will cry if he watches all of these cedars get cut up. I have a bet with myself each season on how many cedar sits he will make lol. He would probably transplant them to his new farm if you would allow it! 🤣🤣
I think those are pine trees, but the effect is the same. I have been on that farm with Jared. There isn't anything else growing in that farm. It is a unique spot. Have a great day.
Little sketch being on a ridge and slick from the snow.
It was sketchy, and hard to actually get much work done. I went back a few days ago after the snow melted and I was able to get twice as much work done in the same amount of time just because the footing was better! Have a great day.
look at some of growingdeer wood land burns.
Yes, Grant Woods is a great resource on this stuff.
Ever hear of Cedar posts? They could offset some of your costs.
Frank, no one seems to want to pay for any of that stuff around here. I have people who are more than happy to cut the logs up to make fence material (basically cut the log in half) but they just want to show up after all the trees are on the ground and just pick through the stuff they want. For free, of course. I don't even mind helping them, but I still have to get them on the ground and dragged out. Have a great day.
When your up there this summer watch out for rattlers.
That is what the locals are telling me. Several snake dens on those rocky points. I saw one last summer when moving logs to clear a food plot. Only a couple feet away - a bit too close for comfort.
The cedar skeletons will burn off better if you cut and let them lay a few years for them to dry out.
Agreed. I think I will try to burn that area next spring at the soonest.
Let those cedars lay a couple of years and then burn. Grant Woods has plenty of videos on doing it. Have enjoyed your content for years.
Thanks Walker. That is the current plan. The really thick areas with all the 30 foot tall cedars will be hard to cut because they will just pile up and turn into one giant cedar brush pile. I will have to figure out how to pull some of them out.
Why won’t they grow in Pennsylvania? They are native and I tried to plant 50 and they all died. What is the soil ph there? Acid here.
It is hard not to get cedars to grow. I have planted them as screens in places and had great success. It must have been a really dry year and the roots dried out before they got established. That is about all I can think of, or there wasn't a good seal between the roots and the dirt and again the roots dried out.
@@bill-winke. Probably , been having droughty weather the last couple of years.
You’ve been watching Dr. Grant grow big deer for years by doin this.
Yes, I don't want to create pure prairie with those slopes. I want a mix of oak, some shrub type prairie and a few scattered pockets of small cedars. That may not be what I get, but that is my goal.
@@bill-winke I like your plan. 👍 .thank you for responding!
How much do you want for the trees
I would definitely consider it, but the buyer would have to pull them out and limb them. This is very steep country and pulling a tree off these hills will be really tough.
Need to find someone that is teaching chainsaw tree felling and allow them to use your problems trees as a training tool for timber fellers.
That is a good idea. In reality, when I look at a forest, all the trees are problem trees! The biggest trouble I have with these cedars is not getting them hung up on good oaks when I drop them.
bill any amish in the area talk to them about the cedars
That is a good option. I will do that. Thanks.
Are you willing to sell the cedar trees
I would definitely consider it, but the buyer would have to pull them out and limb them. This is very steep country and pulling a tree off these hills will be really tough.
Cedar post and boards are expensive really a shame to let go to waste surely there is a local saw mill around just a idea 💡
I know it, but no one here has any interest in these things. There are tons of cedar thickets in this part of the country and no one wants cedar.
Looks like a big job. Maybe rent a bull dozer and get it over with.
No, I wish. Not even legal here. They have what is called a Bluff Land Protection Act that prevents any excavation of any kind (including building logging roads) from this region to protect the integrity of the bluffs. Plus, these slopes are way too steep. Much of this area is 45 degree angle, some even steeper. The old fashioned way or nothing.
Too bad you are so far away, could make some really good lumber out of trees that size
Agree. No one here wants them, apparently - at least no one knows of a local market among those I have asked so far.
That is sad. Looked like some I saw you cut were 10-12" diameter trees. Let me figure out how many I could load on a trailer. Is it in Southeast Iowa?
Property covered with cedars usually doesn't perk.
Some cedar pockets are fine, but once they hit maturity, they are pretty useless.
Furniture.
Logistics here make it nearly impossible. Steep slopes, no mills want the stuff. I called around. Everyone in this area is in the same boat - no market for these cedar trees.
Burn baby burn! Drop them, dry for a year or two, burn.
That is the plan. I need to get some confidence with burning other areas this spring so I can tackle that area in a year or two. Those dead cedars will burn really hot.
Bad idea to cut in the snow, on a slope. You can’t get your footing to get away if something doesn’t fall as expected. Little trees aren’t a big deal. Anything of size I won’t cut unless I have solid footing.
Very good point. I had a few falls that were kind of dramatic, head over heels kind of stuff. I was lucky not to get hurt. You make a great point.
Agree, Bill..please be careful. Snow (worst), + steep + sharp saw = possible bad things. Also, watch those barber chair cuts!😮
Cut a hinge and use that chain brake