Why Toronto Removed a Subway Line and Why It’ll Be Okay (Eventually)
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2022
- Toronto is soon going to be in a rare club of cities that have ripped out a rapid transit line. But how did it happen, and what does the future hold? Find out in today's video!
Special thanks to Transitthinker for the Scarborough Subway Extension construction footage!
/ @transitthinker
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece Martin (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
Imagine CZcamsrs 30 years later doing a video about Secrets of the TTC saying: "We are standing at Kennedy Station, where a LRT line used to exist. Not much of it remains nowadays except for a few pillars here and there..."
"As well as the abandoned and filled-in tunnel on the curve with the only below-grade segment... "
Sad!
@@RMTransit "The remaining SRT ROW having been obliterated by electrified triple-tracking projects on the Stouffville line... "
Unfinished London
Kennendy LRT which is now a nothing..
Looks like a London-Docklands-esque service. Upgrading and extending it would seem the 'European' thing to do. What always baffles me it that most stations have almost no development around them. It's like most of those GO-stations, there are loads of parking lots, a bus stop, some bicycle infrastructure if you're lucky, but then .... big voids, no housing, no businesses, no attraction pools resulting in 'low ridership'. This makes it more 'easy' to scrap lines or reduce services. I understand that most (GO-)stations are build for the future, but development seems not to take place at a desirable pace at most of these stations. A shame .....
Transit oriented development is the way to go. It is unfortunate that many North American operators do not utilize the real estate around their stations to their fullest extent.
Comparing it to the Docklands is extremely generous. The area of Scarborough (arguably already the least dense borough) is almost entirely industrial/distribution centres with residential areas not close enough to suggest heavy ridership. Ellesmere and Midland stations are practically at the same intersection, so they end up taking ridership from each other.
Honestly, I’m glad they’re replacing it with a proper subway, it’s a bit of an embarrassment to the TTC. Metro6 has a great video on his channel where he goes into more detail than I ever could.
There are actually big TOD plans moving forward for a bunch of GO stations, just takes time! Maple, Port Credit, Oakville, Burlington all come to mind
I agree we haven't been very good about TOD. I thought I'd explore some neighbourhoods accessible by GO recently and remarkably few had much nearby OR the thing they did have was quite a distance from the station itself (e.g. Guild park is a 20-30min walk from Guildwood station through a mostly residential area and Unionville same issue). 😢
@@tonywalters7298 they utilize the real-estate around stations... providing space for cars that are barely ever there. So it's about the shittiest possible way to use the space, isn't it? I would think the wise thing to do would be to bite the bullet and do some work making the stations more pedestrian accessible, try to attract some enterprises by dangling the carrot of "You can be within walking distance of a train station!" or even providing free fare cards to distribute to their workers.
It's about the easiest way I could think of to invest your tax money now into long term tax money later. It's like the opposite of "hey, we want to build a walmart on the outskirts of town and we'll do it for free, but we want a tax break and you're going to have to maintain the water, transit and power supply infrastructure that goes out to us."
As the person who presented the plan for the original LRT line to Scarborough Council in April of 1974, there are some important details you are leaving out.
1. The province came in and forced the TTC to use ICTS (Intermediate Capacity Transit System) instead of light rail vehicles. This almost doubled the cost and is the reason the line was never extended to Malvern.
2. They then forced the TTC to use much smaller size tunnels to save money which also made it impossible to replace the Mark I cars with the newer cars used in Vancouver as they won't fit. This also means that these tunnels would need to be replaced to do any upgrade as the Mark I cars are no longer built and the new ones don't fit. Also, the system does not like snow.
3. The linear induction motors used in these cars are very inefficient and cause the reaction rail (the flat one between the tracks to get too hot in stations.) To rectify this problem they used a laminate rail in the stations, but like the laminated ballast transformers in fluorescent lights. the laminates loosen up and vibrate because of the AC current induced in them,
4. The motors do not work well in snow, especially getting from the yard up to McCowan Station. The system often shuts down in snow.
5. To run line 2 up the right of way would require a total rebuild of Kennedy Station to change the alignment from east-west to north-south. This would have shut the line down at Warden for the rebuild.
6. The existing track right of way is not wide enough to carry line 2 cars.
7. They could not make the curve from north to east as it is way too tight.
8. The elevated could not hold them as it is too narrow and lacks strength.
9. The line from Warden to Kennedy was supposed to be in an open cut like Eglinton to Davisville.
10. Running the subway as an elevated up McCowan would need a much wider elevated than the Sky Train in Vancouver.
The Scarborour SRT is what results when one level of government interferese in another.
Thank you...this is just another reason private ownership would be the way to go.
They were rebuilding Kennedy station when I moved back to Scarborough like a bit over 10 years ago it made getting to work incredibly annoying to the point of me just quitting that $20 an hour job. Is it true that the RT trains don’t need drivers I heard they’re fully automatic but couldn’t find enough info about it
The SRT still has drivers because the TTC has unions
@@sommebuddy God, no.
@@sommebuddy Private ownership can still get you an underbuilt line. Just look at the Canada Line, which was built in a private-public partnership. The capacity it was expected to hit in the early 2020s it hit in 2011, and the line will eventually be too crowded.
Furthermore, full private ownership won't work either. In the Indian city of Gurgaon (a satellite city for Delhi), an entirely privately financed and operated metro system was built, but after a few years, they ran out of money to run the line, and sold operations to the Delhi Metro Rail Corporation, which has proven to be quite successful in building and running effective metro lines.
The reason for the SRT's demise is the lack of investment in maintaining and upgrading the trains and systems. the excellent Vancouver SkyTrain is the same technology but has seen several generations of rolling stock and control systems; the SRT has seen none.
Yup
Honestly why throw good money after bad?
Just because you wanted to work doesn't mean it will or even can. Too many people get caught up in public transit because they think it's in general a good thing and then cling to it when a project is poorly conceived and managed.
@@M167A1 I would attribute that to the constant, general pushback against all mass transit projects in north america - good and bad ones alike. It seems there is just so much more work needed to push a project through so once one gets in there is, indeed, some sunk cost fallacy at play. I'd argue that it's kind of justified though.
There's also the fact that there's so many stupid people with too much power constantly proposing red herring projects like the Las Vegas Loop, skybus, monorails and so on that are all sub-optimal compared to actual mass-transit but make people who haven't specifically looked into everything go "Oooooh cool it's better than a train because it's cool and new!"
Frankly speaking, lots of people are making money off of the status quo of transit in north america and it's surely creating a hostile environment within which badly designed projects are both more frequently proposed and also pushed forward not because it's good but because its what we're forced to do.
They can't really give the SRT new rolling stock without modifying the very sharp curve at Kennedy - it's too sharp to fit the Mark II and III cars that Vancouver has.
@@M167A1 Yes, good point. I hate to compare one thing to another but BART in the San Francisco Bay Area comes to mind. Proprietary wheels, non-standard gauge, and it keeps sweeping up all the local transit money year after year, while more sensible systems with standard off the shelf equipment, standard gauge rail, are forced to go without, even for more modestly priced projects.
I choked on my water when you said midland station because my first immediate memory is the smell of the recycling plant next to it.
This video could use an update. The SRT stopped running for good after a derailment in July of 2023 did damage to the line that was considered too severe to repair. The line was slated for decommissioning in Nov. 2023 anyway.
What a shame.
Conspiracy time: they probably could've repaired it but decided it wasn't worth the effort for another 3-4 months of service
@@stevendchuis that a conspiracy, or basic cost-benefit analysis in public administration?
It has always boggled me as to why the SRT was built with an expected lifespan, unlike the TTC subways that have been running (yes, with issues of course) for many more decades. But of course, it's Scarborough, so none of the downtown fat-cats give a flying fox about Scarborough. I lived in Scarborough for many years, and took the SRT many times. At the moment I live in East York right on Eglinton with all the mess of construction that has been going on, and I'm about ready for it to be done please and thank you.
You right. Living in midtown for 30+ years, I only once visited Scarborough - just for the purpose to ride on SRT. I wouldn't expect city's interest in this area and it's development.
didn't metrolinx not want to make the cars or update them? too costly? Subway cars were able to be replaced, but not the RT. RT ICTS mag-lev cars are running something like 20 years past expiry. TTC thought it was a dumb move to use that system in the 70's but the gov twisted their arm and threatened to cut funding. yay.
@@AK.__ they should care. Scarborough's population is nearly a third of all of Toronto!
I lived in Mid-town for just over a year. Right on Yonge Street between Eg and Lawrence. Wonderful neighbourhood. PITA when they've got line 1 closed every weekend for maintenance.
@@musingwithreba9667 Yes, they should, agree. I just say, that I do not see it happens. Well, L1 closures this is what we have to live with for Line5 construction.
It is the same system and technology as Vancouver. We are expanding our system not removing it.
I've recently riden on the SRT and I got sensory overload, it was LOUD. As a regular user of the TTC, the SRT is the most consistantly loud part of the system.
I think the curves on L1 are definitely louder, especially as they are underground
@@RMTransit well yes but it's rather loud for a minute compared to somewhat loud the entire journey. As someone with sensory issues, the RT is a worse me for me compared to Line 1.
@@RMTransit regular srt user here, the srt is absolutely louder by a good margin while running & during turns
come to California and ride our 70's made Metro- BART
@@mattyu1008 it is loud - regardless of curves. You can't hold a conversation while riding the RT
There's also a consideration that decommissioning this system could mean the elimination of a lot of non-standard equipment. That could decrease logistics costs in the long run, while the prospective plans look like equivalent quality transit at least
When planning commenced for the SRT replacements, one of the pro points for extending the existing subway on a different underground alignment was that the existing RT could continue uninterrupted while construction progressed. Now of course that's totally thrown out the window.
Well thought out commentary. Ultimately the extension of Line 2 will be a significant improvement. Not having to change trains is a bigger deal to development I think than people give credit to. The long gap in time between the demise of the SRT and Line 2 extension is an issue I hope the TTC sees fit to address in a way that not only helps current riders but encourages developers to plan and begin executing new construction to be served by Line 2’s service before it even arrives. Maybe something will be done to encourage and stimulate growth so when the extension opens there will be more to serve. Integrated transit and development like elsewhere.
Yes, the best line I heard was from former Scarborough councilor Gordon Chong during one debate at City Hall during the David Miller years, where he said that transit users preferred a 'one-bum' ride over multiple transfers.
I recall my trips on the Scarborough RT being loud and shaky. All things considered (range, speed, comfort), I think people in Scarborough will be better served by the three-stop subway extension than by the current train. It will also become more important to have the subway once (if?) the Sheppard line gets exended, so that the Sheppard and McCowan stop becomes an interchange between subways.
I took the RT to Scarborough Town Center 2 weeks ago and it nearly shattered my eardrums. It's night and day compared to the Toronto subway I've ridden all my life and I was a bit surprised to see RMTransit talk about it so positively
@@_seola_ its not that they cant afford new trains on the bd/line 2 those new trains can't fit in there smaller current yards in order for them to get those cars on line 1 they had to expand wilson yard which takes the majority of the trains but from what I heard rumors they are looking at building a yard at kipling to accept these newer trains and I know alot of people will say arent they the same length correct they are but the trains on line 2 get uncoupled in order to fit in the yard and recoupled when leaving yard but the newer trains on line 1 can not be easily uncoupled and would be exposed to the elements when uncoupled
@@_seola_ they probably have a good 10 to 15 years left of service at the minimum by then they should of made a capable yard that stuff is usually pretty quick compared to these private companies that come in and take advantage of the government and know they can keep delaying and charge even more
@@destroyer5724 I've learned that some trains have a relatively smooth ride (other than the screeching on the elevated portion from midland to scarborough centre), while other trains are literally deafening for the entire ride.
I was always impressed with transit in the greater TO area. My SO once caught the Go from Mississauga to TO with a packable kayak--just in order to get up the nose of the rest of the commuters who had to go to work. Plus, you know, kayaking. I've never gone that far, but the Go really impressed me.
I really like how many Canadians are commentators on urban issues here and on Nebula. Most Canadians recognize that government can still be a force for good, which makes for sensible, balanced explorations of issues.
I really enjoy the work you're doing, so kudos, eh?
I’m looking forward to the Line 2 extension. I think there could be one or 2 more stations and an extension out to Malvern, but the current plan seems solid enough. Truth be told the SRT has never been useful to me. The stations in between Kennedy and Scarborough Town Centre are very rarely used and using them as connections is just a pain. This in my experience is why most people just use it to go to and from Kennedy and STC. The subways proposed station are situated in a much better area.
yes exactly. most scarborough residents prefer taking the bus to the srt. the stations are too awkward for frequent use for most people as RM pointed out. who exactly gets off at lawrence and walks to very important destinations like the rug retailers and the burger king? uh not many lol
Honesty the reason why the SRT was so neglected is that the TTC never wanted it. The original streetcar plan was forcibly scrapped by the Ontario Government (by threat of removing TTC operational funding) to build the line we see here. It’s purpose was to show the value of the UTDC’s LRT/RT ICTS technology and less so rapid transit and I think that’s why the City of Toronto doesn’t like the damn thing.
Personally I think the SRT is adequate and like you said had lots of potential for expansion to areas that could use it like UTSC. However, because of how the service was commissioned it feels like the City and the TTC just wanted to can the whole thing as fast as possible so that they could build what they wanted and designed.
Hey, great job with your channel! I live in east Scarborough. It takes me a 45min total ride time on the bus at night to get to Kennedy Station for the subway downtown. I used to work at STC and that was a 30min ride time. If I could get to a subway in 30min and get downtown in one shot instead of transferring at Kennedy, that would be fantastic. What we lost with not upgrading Line 3 to LRT though was the second phase was supposed to go all the way to Malvern Town Centre via Centennial College. The land has been reserved/empty since forever for that purpose. You can see it on the north side of Sheppard Ave. just east of Markham Rd. @Progress.That would have served a very isolated community and eliminated the hoard of students at STC that have to take a bus the rest of the way to an ever-expanding Scarborough College. And dude, the SRT is noisy AF. The stretch between STC to Midland and, from Ellesmere to Lawrence is sooooo effing loud inside the train. You should record and post that. I can't continue the conversation with the person sitting next to me because of the noise! Thanks for the videos. I appreciate the discussion about good transit.
The SRT could also have been extended and improved at lower cost than converting it to use trams!
I was skeptical when this came into my recommendations but this was FANTASTIC journalism. Well thought-out, researched and informative.
I used the SRT a lot when it opened. The trains did use the turning loop initially but changed to the current configuration because of high wear on the wheels.
And it was a two track system in Kennedy Station till they changed it to a 1 track.
Okay you have me a little happier about the Scarborough extension, especially considering the cost. Now let's hope it gets quickly built ( or at least without delays ) and is the start of other great transit in the east end!
That makes me happy to hear! I think things will be ok!
I am a great fan of your videos - and thanks to them even a bigger fan of the city of Toronto! Hoping for the best for all the public transport programs in your hometown. A tiny request - perhaps a video about the public transport of Warsaw, Poland? Some interesting stories there - plans for a metro system since 1920s, total destruction of the city in World War 2 creating blank canvas for a ultra-modernist reconstruction, never realized projects of lavish Moscow-style stations in the 50s, the final opening of the first line in the 90s, the futuristic designs of the 2nd line, the highly controversial "moustache" project for the 3rd line - all that and an extensive system of trams and also the Warsaw Uprising Museum located in a former tram power plant! Would love to hear your opinion on Warsaw's transport system :)
The SRT was our gateway to Toronto 25 years ago for my friends and I. We'd drive to the town centre and SRT/Subway to all our haunts downtown, which was much cheaper, quicker, and above all easier than driving all the way. This personal connection makes it a bit sad to see it go, though a full subway connection will be far superior (if only there wasn't that service gap until the subway opens). :)
Lawrence East will be by the hospital that's going to be interesting 🤔 I'm close to that station.
Great video I do love all the construction upgrade for transit.
I took the SRT exactly once (well, one round trip) back in 1988, and I remember not being all that impressed as I thought it slow when compared to the subway I had transferred from… though my memory may be a little bit off considering that was 34 years ago!? At least it was more modern (at the time, for back then there were still a few of the original red subway trains still in service). I seem to remember it being pretty expensive to build, but I believe it was because this was Ontario technology that the province wanted to highlight. At least it's still around (for another few years anyway), unlike other Ontario technology (*cough cough* ICON Computer *cough cough*).
Thanks for mentioning the ICON computer, that system hardly ever gets a note even on computer history sites. Had an awesome time exploring the ins and outs of them in high school, way ahead of the clueless teachers.
@@haweater1555 I had hours of fun on my high school's lone ICON computer we students had access to. It was my introduction to a mouse (well, trackball). My friend got bonus points on an essay in 1985 because it was the first "computer" printed submission his teacher had ever received, even though the pagination was all messed up (WYSIWYG it was not!). I particularly enjoyed the "Voyagers" game of using the trackball to move your canoe through the waterways of Rupert's Land, and the drawing package was pretty sweet as well.
My then brother-in-law was a signals maintainer for the SRT in it’s early days and explained to me the computer system that controlled train movement. Pretty sophisticated for it’s time.
It may have been expensive to built at the time but Vancouvers built a lot of SkyTrain since for pretty reasonable prices!
Perhaps an ICON system running QNX has been controlling the SRT all this time?
It’s pretty sad to see it go. I remember taking it all the time with my mom to get to Scarborough Town Centre. The shaking, loud noises and that iconic door chime. Definitely going to miss it
Today took it my ear got deaf lol
Thanks Reece. I always liked traveling on the SRT. Keep in mind though that the loop was originally used, when it opened, and was LOUD. They stopped using it due to the noise and the damage to the trains. Oh well. I’ll miss it too…
This makes me feel old. I remember when this opened. I never thought that I would outlive it.
I took the SRT once and found the service slow as I could take the subway to Finch and take the bus to Scarborough Town Centre. I don't like public transit being removed, but it was a pain to get to. Was a fun cute and quiet ride while on it though.
There are some plans to keep the corridor and stations, and I hope they do. I really like the architecture and vibe of the stations, and it would be a shame to lose them. Even though they'll no longer serve rapid transit, it would be nice to keep them. People have suggested turning some of them into farmer's markets and community centres. The corridor, especially the elevated section would be neat if it were turned into an elevated park/trail like the high line in New York City, or a bike path.
Thank you for well thought out, non-hyperbolic commentary.
Umm, that loop WAS used for the SRT for several years. It did however cause lots of wear problems which is why the switch was retrofitted at Kennedy resulting in a shrinking of the platform forever limiting the system to 4 car trains (it was built with 6 cars in mind).
Yes, and it let to lots of derailing fairly unsurprisingly’
@@RMTransit I wouldn't call it 'lots'. My dad actually was one of the first operators of the SRT so I fondly recall it. While there were some derailments, by far the killer was wear on the wheels and the rails.
FWIW wear on wheels has been a constant problem for the SRT (along with power unit failures)
The fact is, Kennedy was in a REALLY bad spot for the SRT technology. The original plan for Kennedy station was always that the subway would be extended, if you look at sat maps of the area you can see remnants of the right of way to this day passing through neighborhoods (those right of ways were sold to adjacent homeowners for $1 a few decades ago)
The decision to move the line to a light rail line following the rail corridor cemented the line to be in trouble. The plan (after the thought of running streetcars was dropped) was to support 6 car trains, which is evidenced by stations like Midland that have a longer than needed guideway, but a 'roof' over only part of it.
The loop was put in because with the original streetcar plan, and the 6 car SRT plan, there wasn't enough room at Kennedy for a switch. Moving to the SRT technology meant there was an opening to putting in a switch, which they eventually did because of the loop wear issues. That of course cemented the line to only ever supporting at most 4 cars (originally the line ran both 2 car and 4 car trains, depending on time of day).
The limitation to 4 cars in the end didn't matter since the manufacturer stopped making the Mark I cars, and the Mark II cars that replaced them wouldn't make it around the underpass north of Ellesmere.
innards
When it's gone I'll believe it!! Awsome video!! I was a child when the SRT came out and it was pretty cool traveling from Kennedy to STC lots of The cities art work is on that line especially around Midland. 👌
Back in June, I was on a trip in Toronto and went to go ride Line 3 before it went out of service so I took it from Kennedy to Scarborough Centre.
You really know your stuff! Thank you.
I always found the SRT cramped and loud. (The loudest screech is the subway looping into Union and out. ) 🙂
Yea 120db
Prob gonna be moving to the Scarborough area soon and was disappointed that the line would be taken down. This video has definitely made me more optimistic!
Isn't the main reason for replacement that the ICTS tech was pushed down to TTC by the UTDC (back when it was developed - they needed customers and being a government project had the ability to force some agencies to use it) and the TTC never liked this hence why they always planned to replace it with tech that they prefer and also integrates better with the rest of the system?
thanks for your analysis Reece. I always wondered why they were replacing the RT with a very expensive subway, rather than extending the Eglinton Crosstown route. I've used the RT and the subway many times, and found the transfer at Kennedy very annoying, not to mention losing 10 minutes or more each. One continuous route (either the subway or the Crosstown) is ideal.
Lol really u need to go up or go down for 4 floor is that airport 😂
My favorite memory of the SRT is in the 1980s and seeing the countless Bick's pickles vats sitting in the open air .. always wondered if any birds made their nests nearby
Great job and quality video!
I love that the 8 million planning / human geo students in Toronto now have a channel to represent them
Reese definitely deserves to host a seminar at UofT
@@TheHothead101 haha, I wish!
@@RMTransit I'm taking URB235 at Innis College this term lol
@RM Transit Not even trying to be funny the dedication to urbanism is one of my favorite parts of living here
@@quarringtonz231 be sure to take a course in the CAS department ideally with Dylan Clark at some point
Toronto is such a different world. I took transit many times in Calgary. The C train always served me pretty well.
Love your vids!
Are there short-term plans for bus replacement between Kennedy and Scarborough, during the time period when there is no train?
I heard there were plans to use the right of way as a BRT
Yes, that’s part of why the busway is being built!
Funny how this guy knows better than anybody else in the world actually working with the stuff. It's impressive.
I remember liking all the noises the srt used to make when I was a kid on it idk I always found it cool to ride on it and useful when my grandma or mom would take me there
I think the extension of Line 2 to replace the SRT is an unnecessary high expense project. However, it will undoubtedly be a service quality improvement along that route.
Things might have been different with an expanded system, but it was basically a shuttle to the Scarborough Center. Having Line 2 extended will probably pay off when Line 4 is extended to meet it. That ideally will also justify extending line 4 West to Line 1s university branch.
If we further extend the line 2 to even north until steels and HWY7, that will be very useful. So we need subway for future.
@@maplehuang6590 A Line 2 Subway north to Steeles and Hwy 7 is not needed. We already have the Stouffville GO line for that for connection to Steeles (Milliken GO) and Hwy 7 (Unionville GO). More frequent 15 min 2-way service, electric trains that can do fast acceleration/deceleration, Electric GO trains can provide more frequent stops and faster service. The only thing missing is fare-integration with the TTC system. All this will cost much less than building/extending a subway, where the GO and your potential subway line basically serve the same customer area; if the money is there, those investment should be directed to other areas, such as an elevated/total grade separated transit line to Centennial College, UT Scarborough, and Malvern.
It’s definitely a different level of service, retaining the SRT only makes sense if you don’t want to spend lots
@@RMTransit Or if I want to spend lots, but on creating a wider service area and not in existing corridors.
@@amosnider Hallelujah!
Excellent video!
Finally found out the possible reason why you keep looking to your right so much from another CZcams content provider. It was suggested that you likely have a screen to your right so that you can see the video going out. As I have said in other videos, I find it distracting when you look right so my suggestion is that you do what the other content provider did and that is put your viewing screen right next to or under your camera so that you can watch your screen with a small flick of your eyes instead of the noticeable look right. Food for thought because I really enjoy your informative videos and want to be able to listen without being distracted. Keep up the good work!!
Finally(?) You talk about line 3.
Since the first time (back in 1990's)I have to transfer form/to line 2 I wonder why the subway did not get extended beyond Kennedy.
Well at least I get some execise every time I run up from the subway platform to line 3 platform every time I have to transfer.
I have other videos on it
4 floor to transfer
Thanks for reminding me about this, I've never really lived in Scarborough meaning I've actually never rode the Line 3 SRT before. My goal is to take a ride through the whole line at least once before it's gone.
I vaguely remember that when it was originally built, it was supposed to be a temporary thing. The plan was to extend the main subway line, and this was a temporary stopgap to the nightmares of building a subway in Scarborough. Last I heard was the SRT was falling apart (they didn’t want to spend money on something they knew was supposed to be temporary) and that was costing more than it was worth.
What I find sad is that the subway ISN’T being extended, so the people who live in that area and use the stops are bereft.
Suggestion.
I think you should have explained the SRT closure details right off of the bat.
And not just assume your viewers all knew about it.
I think you should have summarized or linked to details of that closure.
This is the first I had heard of it.
And I had to run around the net to find out what it was you were talking about.
Otherwise, I rally liked your video.
☮
I remember using the LRT a day or two after it opened and I often used the LRT to get to the Scarborough Town Centre.
Hello. It would be also if you did a video on MTA Commuter Rail in the New York and New Jersey area. Thanks!
One question I would like answered soon is: What new rolling stock would replave the T1's on line 2? (They would need to be replaced anyways to be compatible with ATC, especially if they needed to run on Line 1)
A few things:
- They definitely should add-in a fourth subway station at Eglinton/Brimley
- Crosstown East should be built in tandem with this extension as a common tunneled section could be built for both between Kennedy and the potential new interchange at Brimley with a planned underground station at Midland/Egltinton. Falmouth stop could be scrapped.
- Perhaps continue the tunneled Crosstown East as far as the budget permits. Eglinton GO, Eglinton/Kingston, Guildwood GO, the West Hill triangle, Highland Creek crossing and the UTSC access point are all points where grade separation should be implemented. Since that's roughly 60% of the line anyways just keep it underground/elevated the whole way methinks.
- instead of jogging Crosstown East to Malvern Centre, extend Line 2 to Malvern (even towards the Zoo) via the rail corridor northeast of Sheppard/McCowan.
So... normally I appreciate the optimism of your channel, but we have had RADICALLY different experiences and thoughts anout the SRT. Like Andrew Clarkson, rides were often incredibly loud and shaky. This is due to a known problem with the wheels developing flat spots at a much faster rate than other trains. Essentially, the magnetic propulsion system used by ICTS "lifts" the trains a bit, especially during acceleration when leaving a station. The lifting effect enough to actually levitate the train, but enough to decrease the weight on the wheels which makes for a higher tendancy for them to skid along the rails. The fully automated mode these ICTS trains were designed to operate in actually compensates for this, but due to the trains often being run in manual mode (one of the worst choices made for these trains) means that wheels skid way more often than they should, causing flat spots.
You said the SRT hasn't receieved as much care, but that's untrue - the trains have HIGHER maintenance requirements with the wheels needing much more regular re-grinding to elimate these flat spots. That the trains so often are out of service for repair, and the ones that are in-service often being a miserable ride, it should be no surprise that use of the line is low outside of STC-Kennedy commuters. The silver lining of this low demand gives the appearance of higher reliability as the SRT maintains hore spares than other lines, even though the actual vehicles are not more reliable. Moving to a LRT that could have provided a nicer ride with frequent and comfortable service would almost certainly have increased use of the intermediate stations - although admittedly, the general lack of walkability in Scarborough would still be a limiting factor. Still DECREASING the number of stations makes Scarborough LESS walkable and only exaserbates the existing issue, so the Line 2 extension plan is exactly the WRONG type of progress.
Last thing I want to touch on: the SRT cars are cramped and unformcortable, and Bombardier was aware (the addition of an operator cab for TTC requirements only making things worse). So 2nd generation ART and newer Innovia cars are much improved, like those on the Vancouver Skytrain. But since the SRT was not originally designed for ICTS, it can't support newer ART/Innovia cars without a fairly significant overhaul, which while not my favourite option, still seems preferable to the terrible subway extension we are getting.
In Shanghai, there's also a condemed elevated metro branch which I belive is in a similar situation - the section between Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development District of Line 5. Line 5 was built at a time when rail transit expansion was overregulated by the central goverment. Instead of aquiring the permission, the local authority just built it in the name of "elevated tramway".
The line opend in 2003, running 17.2 km on viaducts from Xinzhuang to Minghang Development District. To minimize costs, the platforms were built short, only enough for four car trains of 78 meters long. This constrasts to six or eight car trains, up to 140 to 185 meters long, found elsewhere in the system. The signalling was based on German PZB technology, without functionality of automatic train operation.
From 2013 to 2018, the line was extended from Dongchuan Road to Fengxian Xinchen. During the construction, the existing section got a complete resignalling. CBTC, platform doors and GoA3 automation (driverless but attended) were put into service. To accommodate for new six car trains, platforms from Xinzhuang to Dongchuan Road were lengthened. Due to space constraint, however, platform extension was deemed impossible for the remaining section between Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development District. When the extension opened in 2018, new six car trains run from Xinzhuang to Fengxian Xinchen, while old four car trains run as a shuttle between Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development District.
This created a problem for commuters along the newly created shuttle service, as they had to take an additional transfer at Dongchuan Road. The problem was solved in 2020 when the shuttle service was replaced by direct service to Xinzhuang. But it created a new problem: now the trunk from Xinzhuang and Dongchuan Road was served by four and six car trains alternatedly, reducing the capacity.
Eventually, a new fully underground metro, numbered Line 23, broke ground earlier this year. When it is complete, it will create an alternative route from Minghang Development Zone to the center city. The four car trains of Line 5 will be retired then. The elevated, four-car only section of line 5 from Dongchuan Road and Minghang Development Zone is to go with the old trains. And new underground stations will be built near existing ones.
To anyone wondering why they don't just "upgrade it", there's a few reasons.
1) The tunnel between Ellesmere and Midland is too tight for modern trains which stops the city from being able to buy newer trains because they won't fit. Costs to upgrade the tunnel are in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
2) The SRT is a completely different system with different rolling stock, track requirements, maintenance facilities, and eliminating it allows them to the same facilities as other lines which makes services easier to complete.
However, the decision to replace it with a subway and not an LRT line is just stupid. People in Scarborough are going to have worse access to transit because they'll have fewer stations that they can use, so instead of a 15 minute LRT ride, they're looking at a 10 minute bus ride and a 10 minute subway ride. Typical planning guidelines say that most people will walk about 400 metres to a bus stop and yet the city is planning on having a 400 metre long bus terminal at Scarborough Centre because Subways! Subways! Subways! Not only that but the main reason people wanted a subway was because it would eliminate the transfer at Kennedy but if you look at the demand patterns and the anticipated ridership, it's pretty obvious that every other subway train will get short turned at Kennedy meaning people are going to have to transfer half of the time anyway.
Good points but for the newer trains they need to be the JFK Air Train Innovia Metro Because the current mark one trains used on the Scarborough rapid transit we're actually the prototype versions of those JFK Airport Air Train
But all of the stations are on major intersections where bus routes can be found? If you're taking the Lawrence Bus from the East (where most people are), it's a direct connection. If you're taking the Ellesmere bus, same idea. Really, the only people that lose here are those taking the Midland bus, but that can sorta be patched by having some Midland busses diverted to Scarborough Centre (unlikely to give them major time savings but hey, I'm not going to pull out all my hairs just to appease the riders of the midland bus). My only caveat is that some stations, especially Lawrence East, are extremely deep which could add transfer time, but that can easily counteract the fact that you don't have to travel down 3 stories to transfer.
Do Vancouver's Mark 2 and Mark 3 SkyTrains fit in the tunnel?
@@lemonofish869 No, they don't unfortunately. None of the new innovia trains would fit. Personally, I think the city should have just expanded the tunnel 20 years ago when they first looked into it.
@@Absolute_Zero7 So, the LRT line would have had 7 stations with about 47,000 people living within walking distance of a station. The subway plan has four stations with about 24,000 people living within walking distance of a station. That means that the subway plan will force about 23,000 people to take a bus to a subway station, so for every person who benefits from the new subway station, there's another who has to take the bus but who would have been living within walking distance if they built the LRT.
Not to mention, the LRT plan would have been a lot less disruptive in terms of construction. So Scarborough is going to spend the next 8 years being ripped up, massive bus detours, traffic delays, all so that they can have a worse transit line but it's a subway.
I remember if you timed it right you could run up the three flights of stairs from line one and just catch the line three train as it was getting ready to leave.
More importantly for right now though who do we have to talk with to get the shepherd line extended to the new Shepherd station?
I like your sweater! I'm watching from my lab at SFU right now!
SRT is really loud while running compared to the subway, just a constant roar in the cabin. Hope you can give a video about the abandoned Etobicoke RT from Kipling.
I just saw an article about a new hovercraft service for Toronto to St. Catharines. Would be cool to get a video on it!
It really isn't "ok". It is being replaced with a three stop subway extension. The problems are:
1- the new stations are far apart. If you live or work anywhere between Lawrence and the Scarborough Town Center where the stops are proposed there is no way you can walk those distances (especially in our snow). Kennedy to Lawrence and STC to McCowan are just as far. You still need to take a bus anyway
2- the stop on the existing RT stops directly connected (almost in) the Scarborough Town Center. Connecting the mall and people living in the condos. The new station will be far from the mall. People going there to shop (anyone going there at Christmas or Boxing day will know what I mean) or people living in the connecting condos will have a long walk to the subway. There are also proposals to rebuild the entire area around the Scarborough Town Center to add around 25-30 new condo towers. This will be thousands of more people packing onto buses or needing to walk a long distance to this one station.
The RT is not "great" but connects better than the new three stop subway extension. We are already building the Eglinton LRT into Kennedy. It would be far better to just take out the existing RT tracks and replace them with LRT tracks and continue the LRT along the existing route. It would have it's own right away that doesn't interfere with traffic and the land and all infrastructure (lights, stations etc) are all already existing. Just need to swap the tracks. Would probably be far less expensive also.
Then going the other way out of Kennedy- going down Eglinton across to Morningside up to Sheppard could be the extension of the LRT. These routes would better connect the outer fringes and center core of Scarborough. But what would people in Scarborough know about what is needed.....guess the people that live in Etobicoke or downtown that never come or probably don't even know where Scarborough is would know better right?🤷♀
I agree with most of your points. The Line 2 extention will make it easier to go from Scarborough Town Center to Toronto, or to pass through Scarborough, but does a poor job connecting Scarborough.
I would disagree the new Stations are to far appart, in that the stretch between STC and the Hospital is all sprawl residential, and no station would get very high usage. But an LRT would have been the better choice, and could have offered a greatly extended service for the same price. Realistically, both could have been done, although the cost of Line 2 is the issue.
I live in Scarborough! People in Scarborough have to take buses, it’s a sprawly area and the nature of that is that you can’t put rail everywhere and if you do in the form of LRT it will not be fast enough for cross city travel anyways.
The subway station at the mall is not particularly far, especially compared to other similar connections in the region and I’m sure the mall can redevelop to better connect over the next several years.
@@RMTransit Subway station at McCowan may not seem particularly far to you but to someone with an arm load of stuff they bought at the mall that has to walk with thousands of other people through knee deep snow it is pretty far. Or ask someone that has to walk it everyday in rain, sleet and snow how far they think it is.
And sure the McCowan station to the Scarborough Town Center may not be "far" but if you live on a street like (picking a few streets at random)- Seminole, Meldazy or work any where near Progress, Corporate Drive, Milner or CTV building it is not close at all. That is a far walk especially in winter snow or rain. Most people would catch a bus to the station. What's the point of running a subway along McCowan if you still need a bus route along McCowan for people to get to the stops. Might as well keep the buses on McCowan and find a different route for the light rail. There is already an existing route and infrastructure along the existing RT route. With the money saved there it could be used to put in better LRT routes. Sure they can't be everywhere but would be more of them in better locations. The subway is three stops to nowhere that doesn't really serve all the people it passes very well. And does nothing for people further into Scarborough (out towards the zoo etc. money saved modifying the RT instead of a subway could be used to extend Sheppard all the way down to the zoo or an LRT along Sheppard.)
The subway along McCowan doesn't service the people that live along McCowan very well. They still need a bus. And it takes away service from people that live along the RT route.
@@pacman3556 I am sure as with most other major malls the subway serves there will be an indoor connection. Needing to still run buses is fine, multiple levels of service are good. If the subway stops are too close together its no longer rapid transit!
I grew up at Midland and Eglinton and remember when the SRT opened (heck, I have vague childhood memories of Kennedy being opened). My parents are still in the area, and it’s exciting to visit and see the changes.
I don’t think it was possible to use the SRT corridor to extend the Line 2; the existing Line 2 terminus would need to make an impossibly sharp nearly 90 degree turn.
I also don’t know how feasible it would’ve been to run the Line 2 above ground between Warden and Kennedy. I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen it in use, but that was a pretty active freight train corridor when I was a kid.
It’s not impossible to swing it back, and if it meant rebuilding Kennedy that would still only be one underground station
@@RMTransitI don’t think it would be worth the effort. You already outlined the great potential of the area around Scarborough General, making the idea of running the 2 along the SRT route seem pointless.
That is the CN Geco sub which has been long abandoned i believe
@@stinkyroadhog1347 yeah, even though the crossing lights on Kennedy are still there, I don’t think they’ve been used in ages. But when I was a kid, around the time Kennedy Station was opened, there was train traffic on that stretch. Very sloooow traffic, I recall; my dad would loop around St. Clair, Midland, and Eglinton to avoid it.
I grew up in Scarborough in 1970s and will always remember how hellish it was getting around because of lack of transit lines, how long it took to get downtown, etc. I remember how Warden was the Last stop for years before Kennedy was introduced in 1981. In 1985, the year the LTR was up and running, I remember what a blessing it was making bus and train connections easier. Though I havent lived in Scarberia for over 30 yrs, I dont think it would be a wise idea to remove this transit line....extend upon and improve it, I say !
The sound of a train taking a tight turn is urban music to my ears. It's just as much a part of the urban landscape as ducks are to the countryside.
I use to take the take it to Lawrence East everybody for school. Well, either the RT or the 57 Midland as my school was at Midland and Lawrence. That was 23+ years ago now.
I was pretty fortunate enough to ride the Scarborough RT the 2 times I came up to Toronto. It's still pretty noisy and shaky like any train here in New York. It's sad to see it go but hopefully the next time I come up to Toronto I'll be able to ride the line 2 Subway up where where the RT used to go. I do have some pictures and videos of the Scarborough RT from both my trips.
When the SRT first started the loop at Kennedy WAS used!!! At Kennedy there used to be TWO platforms on separate tracks. one to empty the train and one to load it...for those wanting to get on you'd have to wait first for the train to empty, then wait for it to go around the loop, and finally stop at the loading platform when you could finally get on. To save time, it was changed to platforms on both sides of the train, and both sides of the train would open at once so that people would get off on one side and enter on the other side of the train at the same time.
Another thing you failed to mention with the two sets of escalators is between them is the bus level...not everyone who rides the SRT is using the subway, some are using buses (I've regularly done this)...it would be silly if people had to go all the way down to the subway level, and then go back up to the bus level, especially if they had to use the stairs!
We have Bus Rapid Transit in Winnipeg. It greatly speeds up transit to those points from Downtown. It was built in two stages. The only problem is the frequency of some of the connector buses.
Just rode it today. The decline is obvious. It will not be missed. The roar from the washboarded railhead even on tangent track is deafening.
The most obvious problem to me is that urban planning was considering a tier 1 level urban development on par with cities like Boston, LA, Shanghai, etc. back in the days. It seemed very reasonable at the time. But then the whole development in GTA is stalled for decades if not over half a century. This significantly cuts down the future for any mass transportation constructions, which in turns create very weird station layouts. Nowadays the city itself is split by education and financial centers(downtown with utsg, big banks and etc., others like york u, utsc all gain their own bright and shiny stations and routes around). Even the city hall is not maintained well these days...
That subway is more like an amusement park roller coaster. Good that they are updating it!
I was a long time west end Toronto resident. The city had lots of opportunities to expand the subways during the 50s and 60s and even later. Toronto loves making "plans"....waterfront, TTC, roads, but has really put very few dollars into actually new construction. In the 1950s there was a 2% TTC tax added to the municipal taxes for new construction. Well the politicians thought they could confuse people by reducing taxes when the 2% surtax was eliminated. So subway extension had years of non building. Imagine if the city had continued to build every year, the city would have lots of subways (or some sort of right a ways) and a lot less expense that the current cost.
Any plans for a video on Munich's transit? They have a fantastic genuine Ubahn network for a city of its size, a super extensive S-bahn to the suburbs and surrounding villages that is also useful as a quasi-metro to get around parts of the urban core, and a good tram network to boot.
Germany >> Canada
I used the SRT semi-regularly over the past couple of years while living in Toronto, and found it a fascinating little system. My inner foamer was a particular fan of being able to stand at the back and watch the tracks (and passing trains) disappear into the horizon line, which is a pretty novel thing on a metro system, at least here in the UK where I can only think of the DLR in London that has similar.
There's no denying it was incredibly dated though, especially the rather ugly brown brick station at Kennedy, which is far from a pleasant place to transfer. I guess it was a fittingly old-school way to reach Scarborough for the reason I needed to travel - picking up cassette tapes I was ordering from a factory out there! A true 1980s timewarp. 😅
hey Buddy, nice video, but I think it might lacks a bit of maps inside of it, as it is difficult for a non Torontonian ( Im French, it's even harder lol :D ) to understand the how and what of the situation without a visual help :)
While the skytrain in toronto is the same technology as the Scarborough SRT, the fact it was built a couple years later is quite significant. Vancouver integrated a lot of lessons learned from TTC that made the system much more maintainable.
One example I heard is around level adjustment of reaction rails. Having linear motors on the train means height adjustment for the reaction rail on track level is pretty critical. The Toronto system have bolt on reaction rails, so if level adjustments are needed, someone have to go and adjust each mounting bolt. The Vancouver system made this much easier (but I am not familiar enough with the details to say precisely what's done there, I heard it's some kind of essentric mounting hardware that gave it some range of motion post install).
Also the snow in Toronto is very harsh on the reaction and power rails. Vancouvers don't get nearly as much free thaw cycles as Toronto, thus less adjustments of bolts needed in the first place.
I don’t disagree with this, but I feel like finding solutions could easily have been done for less than the cost of the subway extension
@@RMTransit Oh absolutely, the subway extension is a bit of a head scratcher. But T1s are reasonably solid trains and continuing the line made sense maintenance wise also. Mccown yard can be cut all together.
Maybe something to do with supply issues with motors, when I worked at TTC as a student, there were efforts to source alternative suppliers. There were non zero numbers of trains going into service with motors cut out.
Thousand small papers cuts certainly
I took the SRT for many years. The noise issue is not just on the turn into/from Kennedy Station. It's impossible to have a conversation with the person beside you without yelling while the train is moving. Also, if memory serves there is only one narrow escalator that leads from the bus bays at Kennedy Station down to the subway platform. Most reasonably able-bodied people use the much wider staircase because it's faster, or because it happens to be closer to them when coming down from the RT platform.
can you make a video about the single bore vs dual/twin bore tunnels? BTW, third rail? they have any plan to change it or not?
LRT is packed every morning. If you don't get on at Scarborough Centre, you have to wait at least 2 or 3 trains to get on.
One thing I wanted to dispute in this great summary video is that the SRT is also really noisy inside the train cars themselves. It isn't just as an observing commuter on platform hearing the loud noise it makes around turns. Inside it sounds very rickety and it's impossible to have a phone conversation with someone because they get drowned out from the train noise. Even when playing music, when I use noise cancellation you still hear a substantial amount of noise.
Having tried to make a call on other subway lines I don't really think the SRT is uniquely loud
@@RMTransit When did you use the SRT last? to me it's much noisier vs. Line 1 or Line 2 when I'm on the phone.
I just stumbled upon your video and being from the Toronto area. Well growing up in the Toronto area I moved away to the states back in 1995 but kept coming up off and on with the family to see my cousins which that's another story. The lines I'm always used to were the one line which I believe was known as the horseshoe since it was U like shape and the two line also, I never had a chance to the three line or the SRT system It was something seeing it once in awhile when I was in the Scarborough area, but I grew up north of the city in Maple in the city of Vaughn which is now getting its connections to the TTC which that's another story in itself that I don't know much about
My main gripe with the Bloor 2 Line is the sheer duration of travel from end to end, and same with the Yonge-University Line 1. In an ideal scenario Id love to see them dig an additional tunnel for both lines 1 & 2 but only connect to every 3rd station on the lines (except through downtown) so it can offer an express service in parallel to the existing lines. This would then be similar to some of the lines in NYC that run from the Bronx through Manhattan and into Brooklyn where they have 4 tracks in some stations to allow local and express trains.
@5:28, isn't the SRT a form of light rail since it looks very much like the DLR (Docklands Light Rail) that operates in London? Further, the DLR does not have overhead lines.
@@Humulator: we have trams in the UK that are street running as well as along new or reused tracks. Street car is a term we do not use.
@@Humulator: nobody in the UK says street car or would know what you meant.
3:03 About the noise tho, as a resident of nearby Scarborough Centre condo tower, it was incredibly loud. New move-in would definitely notice, but you’d get used to it soon. It’s also very loud on board. However, it’s still stupid to tear a down a subway and leave Scarborough no mass transit.
I was on the SRT on day one in 1985. It was packed as it was free that day. The escalator at Midland station used to be two-way, and they never got around to building one on the east side, even though there were rough-ins for two.
did it have the closing door chime sound in 1985 ?
@@iknowthetruthcommonsense3643 It most certainly did, before the subway trains had it. But they still had people on the platform with the whistle.
Dude your awesome , thank for that , i been trying to find this answer for years , so that classic Srt chime is the original one wow , thank you
@@iknowthetruthcommonsense3643 Sort of. It was more overlapping tones. First one overlapped by the second, then the third one covering over both. More like an annoying chord being played.
So im guessing it sound very different back then ? so when did the iconic chime come around ?
Lawrence East and Scarborough Centre were among the most-used stations on the Scarborough LRT. Now that the line is decommissioned, the TTC is going to have to work overtime to keep the service at the same level
I remember taking Line 3 (SRT as it was then called) from Bellamy/Lawrence in to downtown back in the mid-80s. Initially I took the Lawrence bus to Lawrence East, then Line 3 to Kennedy and thence downtown, reverse in the evening. After a while I changed the morning pattern -- the Line 3 trains were always jammed in the morning rush, so I might have to wait three or four trains to get on. So in the mornings I took the Bellamy bus in to Warden. Coming back home was no problem -- at Kennedy you were getting on to an empty train, so I took Line 3 / Lawrence bus home. It struck me that the SRT was a victim of its own success -- too many passengers. The platforms were big enough for six-car trains, I never saw why that wasn't done to increase passengers. But the TTC didn't invest in it, and so now the rolling stock is falling-apart and it has to go. (I don't remember it being all that loud in the 80s either -- I suspect age of the fleet added to the noise level).
Scarborough line is 120db between midland to Scarborough centre station
Omggg so much memories! I hated those escalators and stars lol
I remember when the premier announced the funding for this technology. It was supposed to be a showcase for the future of transportation and all Metor Toronto had to do was shut up and take it. There were many people questioning the lack of expansion capabilities as well.
But they had a nice mock up at the CNE for a couple years that you could walk through and even press the emergency strip. And in all fairness the emergency strip and well known Try-tone warning for the closing doors was prototyped on it
I was under the impression that analysis showed the elevated guideway and short tunnel at ellesmere were in a bad state of repair and no longer structurally sound due to corrosion and the like, similar to the Gardiner. Maybe I'm wrong.
After school: Stop off at Games Maximus at STC for an hour. Hop on the the SRT to Midland Station. Take 57 Midland up to p-mall for boba and more arcade.
Almost all gone now. 😢
I heard they were removing the 3 line so i went down and took a ride, it was loud, bumpy and the carrage smelled like piss but now i can say that i rode on the scarboro RT before it was removed
so as they close the srt. what will they do with above tracks. they should consider a park lane for walking riding etc with little shops at the closing station
Noooooooooo!!! I haven’t been on TTC subway yet! I want to check out T1 and H6 and H5 someday!
I've taken line 3 and even on the train and even on straight track the noise was piercingly loud.
I herd Translink even offered Toronto their old rolling stock as they upgraded to newer versions.
love the sweatshirt, I'll take the advice!